PDA

View Full Version : Old Prussian (West Baltic) R1a clades



Tomenable
31-07-16, 21:20
Problems with Old Prussians are that they no longer exist as a separate ethnos or linguistic group, and that their genetic descendants for the most part no longer live in former areas of East Prussia. We also do not have any ancient DNA samples from the region, so we can't be sure whether West Baltic (including Old Prussian) Y-DNA was more similar to modern East Baltic or to modern Slavic. However, we do have FTDNA customers whose direct paternal ancestors originated from East Prussia. Of course not all of them were descended from Old Prussians, many were descended from various groups of immigrants who flooded into East Prussia throughout history.

Nevertheless, here are 32 pre-1914 people with R1a from East Prussia (see the map of birthplaces in post #2):

Many thanks to Artmar for great help in distinguishing Baltic from Slavic subclades:

Typically East Baltic (modern distribution) and probably East Baltic (12 = 37.5%):

kit 329192 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y16755>YP4296
kit 221446 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y9081>YP350
kit 157553 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y9081>YP350
kit N2278 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP1700
kit 162556 - Z92>Y4459>YP5520

kits E4688 & N43077 (two samples) - Z92+

kit 161829 - S24902>YP561>YP4094>YP4078

kit 71994 - CTS1211>YP1034>YP4258

kit 85285 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L366>YP5223
kit E10339 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951>Y17619

kit 426239 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>YP968>YP969>YP4335

Typically (modern distribution) East Slavic subclades (3 = 9.4%):

kit 316853 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569>YP682
kit 415060 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP573>YP569>YP1256>YP4846

kit 175710 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y2910>Y2915

Typically West Slavic and probably West Slavic subclades (6 = 18.8%):

kit N1840 - M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y4135>Y14244
kit B14462 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921>Y2914>Y20359

kit 145992 - M458+
kit 31553 - M458>PF7521>L260+
kit N5198 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029+

kit 200664 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>YP315>YP314

Typically West Slavic, and specifically Pomeranian, subclades (3 = 9.4%):

kit 165792 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>YP243>YP389>YP4669
kit E9666 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>YP243>YP269>Y6956>L670
kit N7393 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>YP243

Other typically Slavic (I guess "Pan-Slavic" ???) subclades (8 = 25%):

kit N18451 - CTS1211>YP343>YP340
kit 153224 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613
kit 275076 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP613
kit 330940 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1448
kit E4464 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1448>FGC19273
kit 2546 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>Y12463 >YP1428*
kit 131361 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y3226>Y 3219>YP1144>PH3519-B2

kit 137403 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>YP515

==================

Other samples of East Prussian R1a (not included due to low-resolution SNP data):

kit E6115 - M512+
kit E10941 - M198+
kit E2656 - M198+
kit N2864 - M417+
kit 145455 - M417+

Tomenable
31-07-16, 21:22
Map with birthplaces of oldest known ancestors for all R1a samples, plus N1c and I2a samples:

https://s31.postimg.org/8x3wzkvrv/Old_Prussian_R1a.png

https://s31.postimg.org/8x3wzkvrv/Old_Prussian_R1a.png

List of N1c samples (19) included in the map:

kit 142919 (N1c-L1025)
kit N61024 (N1c-L1025)
kit 217892 (N1c-L731)
kit E13080 (N1c-L1025)
kit E9638 (N1c-L1025)
kit 202401 (N1c-L1025)
kit 179556 (N1c-L550)
kit 193848 (N1c-L550)
kit N42695 (N1c-L550)
kit 284236 (N1c-M178)
kit 147092 (N1c-M178)
kit 343953 (N1c-M232)
kit B42972 (N1c-L1025)
kit N58382 (N1c-L1025)
kit 183188 (N1c-L1025)
kit N23762 (N1c-L1025)
kit 173926 (N1c-L1025)
kit E2482 (N1c-L1025)
kit E8045 (N1c-L1025)

List of I2a samples (4) included in the map:

kit B1542 (I2a-P37)
kit E2677 (I2a-M423)
kit E7698 (I2a-M423)
kit N4664 (I2a-M423)

Tomenable
31-07-16, 21:22
Now question is - could West Baltic R1a be "intermediary" between East Baltic and Slavic?

That is, could some of subclades today considered Slavic, be also West Baltic in the past?

arvistro
31-07-16, 22:41
Do you have their surnames too?
They are from ftdna?
Say if Slavic clades had Slavic surnames and East Baltic had German/ Germanized Baltic surnames, then answer is probably no.
Otherwise it looks like NE is blueer and SW gets more Slavic.

arvistro
31-07-16, 22:57
Typically East Baltic (modern distribution) and probably East Baltic (12 = 37.5%):

kit 329192 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y16755>YP4296 - dnf
kit 221446 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y9081>YP350 - dnf
kit 157553 - Z92>Z685>YP270>YP351>Y9081>YP350 - dnf
kit N2278 - Z92>Y4459>YP617>YP1700 - dnf
kit 162556 - Z92>Y4459>YP5520 - dnf

kits E4688 & N43077 (two samples) - Z92+ (Panemune place, Lithuania)

kit 161829 - S24902>YP561>YP4094>YP4078 - dnf

kit 71994 - CTS1211>YP1034>YP4258 - Pallashke (Baltic)

kit 85285 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L366>YP5223 - Lichtenstein (German)
kit E10339 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951>Y17619 - john doe (Germany as place of location, name surname not real)

kit 426239 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>YP968>YP969>YP4335 - dnf

7 did not find. 4 Baltic or German.

arvistro
31-07-16, 23:07
Typically West Slavic and probably West Slavic subclades (6 = 18.8%):

kit N1840 - M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y4135>Y14244 - dnf
kit B14462 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921>Y2914>Y20359 - Rosenbaum (Germany)

kit 145992 - M458+ - dnf
kit 31553 - M458>PF7521>L260+ - dnf
kit N5198 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029+ - dnf

kit 200664 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>YP315>YP314 - dnf

Typically West Slavic, and specifically Pomeranian, subclades (3 = 9.4%):

kit 165792 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>YP243>YP389>YP4669 - dnf
kit E9666 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>YP243>YP269>Y6956>L670 - Pawellek, East Prussia (not sure Baltic or more like Slavic?)
kit N7393 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP238>L365>YP243 - dnf

Other typically Slavic (I guess "Pan-Slavic" ???) subclades (8 = 25%):

kit N18451 - CTS1211>YP343>YP340 -
kit 153224 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613
kit 275076 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP613
kit 330940 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1448 - Malesha (Germany). Sounds like more Slavic than Baltic surname.
kit E4464 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>FGC19283>YP1448>FGC19273
kit 2546 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681>Y12463 >YP1428* - Piasetzky (Poland). Slavic
kit 131361 - CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y3226>Y 3219>YP1144>PH3519-B2

kit 137403 - M458>PF7521>CTS11962>YP515


Could not find most of them in EastPrussia project.
East Slavic - seem Germans, but of Slavic or Baltic origin?
316853 August Czeranna (Germany)
175710 George Glass (Germany)

Tomenable
31-07-16, 23:19
Could not find most of them in EastPrussia project.

They are from several projects. Not all of them are in "East Prussia Project".

Many of them are for example in "Germany Project", but not in "East Prussia".

====================


Do you have their surnames too?
They are from ftdna?

Yes, all of them are from FTDNA database, from several different projects.

Surnames added:

https://s31.postimg.org/mfwjkq5or/Old_Prussian_R1a_surnames.png

https://s31.postimg.org/mfwjkq5or/Old_Prussian_R1a_surnames.png

Tomenable
31-07-16, 23:43
Arvistro, here are the details:

Haplogroup I2a:

kit E2677 Karl L. Nath born in year 1820 in Osterode (Ostróda)
kit B1542 Gottfried Golembiewski, born in 1790 in Riesenburg (Prabuty)
kit E7698 Michael Rimek born in 1723 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno)
kit N4664 Adalbert Rutkowski, born in 1730 in Grutta (Gruta)

Haplogroup R1a:

kit 145992 - Martin Kiehl, born in year 1760 in Stobiec (Stobbendorf)
kit 165792 - Johann M. Sommerfeld, born in 1750 in Tiegenort (Tujsk)
kit N2864 - Michael Flatau, born in 1800 in Alt Christburg (Stary Dzierzgoń)
kit 275076 - Georg Gottlieb Gutt, born in 1729 in Brodnica
kit 137403, Felyx Pruhs, born in year 1826 in Bratjan
kit 329192 Friedrich Mattern, born in Liebstadt (Milakowo)
kit 161829 Johann Pieczkowski, born in 1824 in Rosenau (Różnowo)
kit N1840 Mikel Bujnicki, born in 1844 in Rogonnen (Rogajny)
kit E9666 Jakob Pawellek born in 1853 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno)
kit 175710 Georg Glass born in 1810 in Babanten (Babięty)
kit 221446 Ludwig Ermis, born in 1822 in Gruenwalde (near Ortelsburg)
kit 31553 Samuel Liedtke, born in 1853 in Kaltwangen (Kalwagi)
kit 71994 Franz Pallaschke, born in 1883 in Buddern (Budry)
kit 162556 Otto Ernst Kloth, born in 1702 in Deutsch Wilten (Ermakovo)
kit 153224 Leopold Lau, born in 1867 in Kompehnen (Niwy)
kit 200664 Simon Netke, born in 1686 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit 85285 Friedrich Lichtenstein born in 1870 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit E4464 Karl Labinsky born in 1840 in Trempen (Novostreyovo)
kit E10941 Jablonski, born b4 WW2 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit B14462 Karl A. Rosenbaum born in 1830 in Heiligenbeil (Mamonovo)
kit 316853 August Czeranna, born in 1864 in Gross Schöndamerau (Trelkovo)
kit 2546 Johann Piasetzki, born in 1860 in Sensburg (Mrągowo)
kit E6115 Klaus born in 1935 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit E2656 Michael Gruenhagen, born in 1750 in Bartenstein (Bartoszyce)
kit 330940 Friedrich Malesha, born in 1800 in Soldahnen (Soldany)
kit N2278 Krystyan Lamka, born in 1769 in Lapienus (Łapinóż)
kit N5198 Peter Wróblewski, born in 1830 in Marienwerder (Kwidzyń)
kit N18451 Frank J. Zalewski, born in 1858 in Gotschalki (Goczałki)
kit 131361 Jan Jablonowski, born b4 WW2 in Prioma (near Soldau/Działdowo)
kit N43077, NN born b4 WW2 in Panemune (Sovetsk)
kit 157553 Tomasz Szypulski, born in 1738 in Szypułki-Zaskórki (near Neidenburg)
kit E4688 Stanislaw Holynski born in 1780 in Kutten (Kuty)
kit 145455 Scheffrahn, born in Rastenburg (Kętrzyn)
kit N7393 Reimer born in 1720 in Hoppenau (now part of Elbląg/Elbing)
kit 415060 Skubinna born in 1720 in Loyen (Łoje)
kit E10339 NN, born b4 WW2 somewhere in East Prussia
kit 426239 Kalinowski born in 1878 in Riesenwalde (Stańkowo)

Haplogroup N1c:

kit 142919 Wilhelm E. Spangehl born in 1819 in Ragnit (Neman)
kit N61024 Jurgis Lunczyns born in 1715 in Mosteiten (Slavyanskoye)
kit 217892 Johann Groening born in 1800 in Horsterbusch (Krzewiny)
kit E13080 Johannes Reihs born in 1800 in Bischofstein (Bisztynek)
kit E9638 August Darge born in 1870 in Bartenstein (Bartoszyce)
kit 202401 Jan Łozowski born in 1850 in Lötzen (Giżycko)
kit 179556 Michael Bannuscher born in 1729 in Schoenfeld (near Braunsberg)
kit 193848 Jons Maczullatis born in 1745 in Skaisgirren (Skajzgiry)
kit N42695 Julius Baltrusch born in 1874 in Campinschken (near Tilsit)
kit 284236 Wannagat born in 1880 in Göritten (Pushkino) or Stallupönen (Nesterov)
kit 147092 Johann Bever born in 1800 in Ryabinovoye (Kaliningrad Oblast)
kit 343953 Pranciškus Lukoševičius, born in Wisztyniec (Vištytis)
kit B42972 Johann Kuschnereit born in 1800 in Eszerischken (now in Kaliningrad Oblast)
kit N58382 Dargil, born ca. 1344 in Gut Dargels (Dargiele) near Migehnen (Mingajny)
kit 183188 Andrzej Cholewa, born in 1815 in Bełcząc (near Bialla/Gehlenburg)
kit N23762 Andrzej Romanski, born in 1758 in Łapka (near Olsztyn/Allenstein)
kit 173926 Baltazar Hilinski, born in 1866 in Rakowo in East Prussia
kit E2482 Martin Ossowski, born in 1729 in Marienburg (Malbork)
kit E8045 Dawid Barteit, born in Kolonie Bismarck near Heydekrug (Šilutė)

Tomenable
31-07-16, 23:54
Often there is German first name, but Non-German surname (for example Gottfried Golembiewski).

This indicates that the person probably considered himself to be German (or his parents did).

Reminds me of Polish politician Grzegorz Braun (Polish first name, Non-Polish surname).

Tomenable
01-08-16, 00:43
john doe (Germany as place of location, name surname not real)

"John Doe" is from East Prussia originally (according to Artmar who works for FTDNA).

But no exact place of birth was given - that's why this sample is not included in the map.

"John Doe" is used when someone wants to remain anonymous - like e.g. in this case:

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/02/john_doe_lawsuit_to_head_back.html

Twilight
01-08-16, 02:33
Interesting, do you know how much Old Prussian dna did the West Prussians have; either from assimilated Pomesanians or East Prussian migrants? 4% of my ancestry came from West Prussia according to genealogy.

arvistro
01-08-16, 11:25
I2a - 3 Polish, 1 not sure (Nath)
N1c - 5 Polish, rest 14(?) Baltic/German
R1a Baltic - I can see only 11. 5 Polish, 1 NN, 2 Baltic, 3 German
R1a Pomerania - 1 Polish, 2 German
R1a pan Slavic - 5 Polish, 3 Lau, Gutt, Pruhs German, but Pruhs potentially Prussian?
R1a West Slavic - 2 Polish, 4 German
R1a East Slavic - strange group, Skubinna, Czeranna, Grass. 2 Polish, 1 German? Skubinna any chance for Baltic?
R1a unknown - 1 Polish, 4 German.

OK, difficult to do conclusions :)
No clear picture. As to Germanized Baltic surnames, they come from East Baltic clades except Pruhs. But is it because they are East Prussian Germanized or Lithuanians Germanized we do not know.
Every clades have Polish and German surnames, hard to see pattern.

arvistro
01-08-16, 22:40
What are possible options:
German Surnames - interesting that only 3 N1c has German surnames, 3 R1a Baltic, 2 Pomeranian, 2 pan-Slavic, 4 West Slavic, 1 East Slavic, 4 unknown.
German, Polish, Prussian, Letto-Lithuanian
Polish Surnames - 5 N1c has Polish surnames, 5 R1a Baltic, 1 Pomeranian, 5 pan-Slavic, 2 West Slavic (only 2 of 6), 2 East Slavic, 1 unknown
Polish, Prussian (could be also Letto-Lithuanian?)
Germanized Baltic Surnames - 6 N1c, 2 R1a Baltic, 1 Pan-Slavic (Pruhs).
Prussian, Letto-Lithuanian

Interesting that Polish surnames here are more "East Baltic" (10 of 21 clades, ~ 50%) than German surnames (6 of 20, ~30%).
Of course Germanized Baltic surnames are the most "East Baltic" (8 of 9 clades, ~ 80-90%).

Probably we wont get anywhere close to solving all this - as usual - without ancient clades.

Twilight
02-08-16, 03:53
I2a - 3 Polish, 1 not sure (Nath)
N1c - 5 Polish, rest 14(?) Baltic/German
R1a Baltic - I can see only 11. 5 Polish, 1 NN, 2 Baltic, 3 German
R1a Pomerania - 1 Polish, 2 German
R1a pan Slavic - 5 Polish, 3 Lau, Gutt, Pruhs German, but Pruhs potentially Prussian?
R1a West Slavic - 2 Polish, 4 German
R1a East Slavic - strange group, Skubinna, Czeranna, Grass. 2 Polish, 1 German? Skubinna any chance for Baltic?
R1a unknown - 1 Polish, 4 German.

OK, difficult to do conclusions :)
No clear picture. As to Germanized Baltic surnames, they come from East Baltic clades except Pruhs. But is it because they are East Prussian Germanized or Lithuanians Germanized we do not know.
Every clades have Polish and German surnames, hard to see pattern.


That's okay. Still the results are 25/59 - 29/59 (tel:25/59 - 29/59) Baltic ydna with only 4/59 range, not too shabby if my eyes aren't deceiving me. Thank you :)

I can totally see the genetic pattern getting jumbled up, since West Prussia was one of the first to get christianized and assimilated into the German-Polish community.

Tomenable
02-08-16, 12:58
I compared Y-DNA frequencies of modern Lithuanians to those in East Prussian sample:

N1c - 40.53% (122) / 22.62% (19)
R1a - 42.19% (127) / 45.23% (38)
I2a - 2.33% (7) / 4.76% (4)
R1b - 4.32% (13) / 15.48% (13)
I1 - 4.65% (14) / 7.14% (6)
E1b - 2.66% (8) / 1.19% (1)
J - 1.33% (4) / 1.19% (1)
G - 1.00% (3) / 1.19% (1)
I2b - 0.33% (1) / 0.00% (0)
other - 0.66% (2) / 1.19% (1)

Total sample - 301 / 84

So, compared to Lithuanians, in East Prussia there was:

- 1.8 times less of N1c
- 2.2 times less of E1b
- 1.1 times less of J

- 3.6 times more of R1b
- 2.0 times more of I2a
- 1.5 times more of I1
- 1.1 times more of R1a

===========================
And when it comes to share of M458 in R1a:

Lithuanians (sample 127):

R1a(xM458) - 100 (= 78.74% of R1a)
R1a-M458 - 27 (= 21.26% of R1a)

East Prussia (sample 33 + 5 unknown):

R1a(xM458) - 27 (= 81.82% of R1a)
R1a-M458 - 6 (= 18.18% of R1a)

Unknown R1a - 5 (in total 33+5=38)

Tomenable
02-08-16, 13:01
^ This sample of 301 Lithuanians is from Table K in S1 File of this study:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0135820#pone.013 5820.s007

Tomenable
02-08-16, 13:06
Higher shares of R1b and of I1 represent German(ic) input in East Prussia, whereas lower share of N1c combined with higher share of I2a and a very similar or even a bit higher share of R1a, represent Slavic input in East Prussia.

Tomenable
02-08-16, 13:28
Interesting, do you know how much Old Prussian dna did the West Prussians have; either from assimilated Pomesanians or East Prussian migrants? 4% of my ancestry came from West Prussia according to genealogy.

Pomesania (don't confuse with Pomerelia or Pomerania) was part of historical East Prussia, even if administrative divisions were different at some point. East Prussia = the original Prussia. The name "West Prussia" (or "Royal Prussia") started to be used much later, and it was originally West Slavic territory, not Old Prussian. There have never been much of Old Prussian DNA there.

The regions of Kashubia (Kaszuby) and Kociewie were parts of the province of West Prussia.

Here are Y-DNA samples of native Kashubs and Kociewiaks from Rebala and Wozniak:

Y-DNA haplogroup - Kashubs / Kociewiaks:

R1a ----- 170 (63.4%) ----- / ----- 89 (56.3%)
I1 ------- 35 (13.1%) ----- / ------ 13 (8.2%)
R1b ----- 24 (9.0%) ------- / ----- 28 (17.7%)
I2a ------ 8 (3.0%) ------- / ------- 9 (5.7%)
I2b ------ 3 (1.1%) ------- / ----- - 3 (1.9%)
E1b ------ 9 (3.4%) ------ / ------- 6 (3.8%)
J --------- 6 (2.2%) ------- / ------ 3 (1.9%)
G -------- 4 (1.5%) ------ / ------- 1 (0.6%)
N1c ------ 3 (1.1%) ------ / ------- 3 (1.9%)
Q1a ------ 2 (0.7%) ------ / ------- 0 (0.0%)
other ------ 4 (1.5%) ----- / ------- 3 (1.9%)

Total --- 268 (100%) --- / --- 158 (100%)

As you can see there are only 6 people with N1c in this sample of 426.

This means that Old Prussian ancestry wasn't common to the west of the Vistula.

These samples posted above, were collected from these two areas:

http://s32.postimg.org/fg919ieyt/Ka_Ko.png

arvistro
02-08-16, 13:52
That seems correct.
A problem though is that we know there was Lithuanian migration into East Prussia. So, we dont even know if Old Prussians had N at all.
Ok, we know from other data they had. There is an East Prussia specific N clade, so they must have had some N. But was it 40% like in LT? Maybe more? Maybe less?

M458 share is interesting. Lower than in LT, much lower than Poland?

Tomenable
02-08-16, 13:55
M458 share is interesting. Lower than in LT, much lower than Poland?

Depends where in Poland. There are regional differences.

I think that South-Western Poland has the most of R1a-M458.

Wielkopolska (Greater Poland) and Upper Silesians have the highest % of M458.

Kashubians have low % of M458 - most of their R1a is Z280.

I'm not sure about Mazovians (to the south of East Prussia).


A problem though is that we know there was Lithuanian migration into East Prussia.

Yes, but Lithuanians settled mostly in what is now eastern half of Kaliningrad Oblast.

More or less in this area:

https://s31.postimg.org/6zrcac6y3/Lithuanians.png

arvistro
02-08-16, 16:05
8 of 14 N is from this area...

Twilight
02-08-16, 17:10
Pomesania (don't confuse with Pomerelia or Pomerania) was part of historical East Prussia, even if administrative divisions were different at some point. East Prussia = the original Prussia. The name "West Prussia" (or "Royal Prussia") started to be used much later, and it was originally West Slavic territory, not Old Prussian. There have never been much of Old Prussian DNA there.

The regions of Kashubia (Kaszuby) and Kociewie were parts of the province of West Prussia.

Here are Y-DNA samples of native Kashubs and Kociewiaks from Rebala and Wozniak:

Y-DNA haplogroup - Kashubs / Kociewiaks:

R1a ----- 170 (63.4%) ----- / ----- 89 (56.3%)
I1 ------- 35 (13.1%) ----- / ------ 13 (8.2%)
R1b ----- 24 (9.0%) ------- / ----- 28 (17.7%)
I2a ------ 8 (3.0%) ------- / ------- 9 (5.7%)
I2b ------ 3 (1.1%) ------- / ----- - 3 (1.9%)
E1b ------ 9 (3.4%) ------ / ------- 6 (3.8%)
J --------- 6 (2.2%) ------- / ------ 3 (1.9%)
G -------- 4 (1.5%) ------ / ------- 1 (0.6%)
N1c ------ 3 (1.1%) ------ / ------- 3 (1.9%)
Q1a ------ 2 (0.7%) ------ / ------- 0 (0.0%)
other ------ 4 (1.5%) ----- / ------- 3 (1.9%)

Total --- 268 (100%) --- / --- 158 (100%)

As you can see there are only 6 people with N1c in this sample of 426.

This means that Old Prussian ancestry wasn't common to the west of the Vistula.

These samples posted above, were collected from these two areas:

http://s32.postimg.org/fg919ieyt/Ka_Ko.png

That's okay no biggie, . My #1 goal with this question is to figure out weather my 2% Finland/NW Russian Dna came from the Old Prussians or could I just safely write the Ancestral Component off as a "hyphenated remains" of Proto-Uralic Tribes getting absorbed by the Proto-Slavs; my 9% East European, 9%+2%=11%Wendish/Pomeranian. I'm afraid I didn't confuse the tPomeranians and Pomesanians unless the sources did that for me. Here is the sources to my guesses.
According to the history of West Prussia, the Pomesanian and Pomeranians lived like cultural neighbors. Due to assimilation of the Teutonic Knights and christianization there is always a chance that the Pomesanian forgot about their ancestry and crossed the river west. This might be how you got the 6 Ydna N samples to the East of West Prussia ;).




My Paternal Grandmother's maiden name is Krumrey and she can trace her direct ancestry to Johnann Krumrei and Dora Pahl whom lived in modern day Zlatlow, West Prussia. Apparently the Pahl surname came from East Prussia. This hints that at least some East Prussian probably were already making their migration Westward as early as the 18th century.


But since the numbers are too little, I suppose I could write off that Uralic Component unless otherwise; if the possibility is true that Old Prussian were mostly R1a.

Thanks for the clarification btw :).

Tomenable
02-08-16, 20:27
BTW,

Previously, based on non-genetic data (historical accounts), I estimated the following ancestry structure for East Prussians:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28371-How-Old-Prussian-were-the-East-Prussian-Germans?p=448429&viewfull=1#post448429

Percentages:

http://s4.postimg.org/7dv2gfcgd/East_Prussians.png

Total numbers:

http://s17.postimg.org/5z2blsm33/East_Prussians_B.png

Tomenable
02-08-16, 20:30
8 of 14 N is from this area...

8 of 19. :)

Tomenable
02-08-16, 20:48
My Paternal Grandmother's maiden name is Krumrey and she can trace her direct ancestry to Johnann Krumrei and Dora Pahl whom lived in modern day Zlatlow, West Prussia. Apparently the Pahl surname came from East Prussia. This hints that at least some East Prussian probably were already making their migration Westward as early as the 18th century.

Zlotow (Flatow) is in the historical region known as Krajna:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajna

It was the borderland between Greater Poland and Pomerelia.

Even the name of the region - Krajna - means literally "frontier":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajina#Geographical_regions

Here you can find some maps of the region (not all are in Polish):

http://www.bohaterowiekrajny.krakow.pl/M.Kokowski-Szkic-historii-granic-Krajny-25.03.2013.pdf

arvistro
02-08-16, 21:23
8 of 19. :)
You are right.
But also 8 of 10 in that map square...
Anyway. Point is we do not know if Prussians (West Balts) were as N rich as Latvians/Lithuanians (East Balts) are.

And then we have these coastal people (but probably not so rich in N):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursenieki
In 1649 settlement of the New Curonian speaking Kursenieki spanned from Memel (Klaipėda) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaip%C4%97da) toDanzig (Gdańsk) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gda%C5%84sk) in Poland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland).

Tomenable
05-08-16, 13:23
Here a more detailed breakdown of East Prussian N1c:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32592-East-Prussian-N1c-subclades?p=486480

lyakh
03-09-16, 19:53
It is also interesting why there were also four families with I2a haplogroup:

Haplogroup I2a:

kit E2677 Karl L. Nath born in year 1820 in Osterode (Ostróda)
kit B1542 Gottfried Golembiewski, born in 1790 in Riesenburg (Prabuty)
kit E7698 Michael Rimek born in 1723 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno)
kit N4664 Adalbert Rutkowski, born in 1730 in Grutta (Gruta)

It is rather in western part of East Prussia, not eastern. Slavic I2a is usually young - has TMRCA estimated as about 2300 years according to YFull. From which people it was? From Lechitic tribes (which appears for me to have the least of I2a-L621 from all Slavs)?

Skubinna
05-09-16, 19:34
I noticed today there was some interest in my surname, Skubinna. My FTDNA Kit is #415060/R1a-YP569. Testing indicates the family goes back to the Ryazan Oblast of Russia in the 1500s. In 1600, they were living in Latvia. At some point after that year, they were Lithuanians living in Lithuania Minor which when it became part of Germany was known as East Prussia. According to the language experts at the Library of Congress, the name Skubina/Skubinna is Lithuanian and means "to be in a hurry" or "to be quick." My direct ancestor was Petras/Peter Skubinna. In 1720 he was paying land taxes at Loyen (near Dubeningken) in Kreis/County Goldap, East Prussia. His sons all had Lithuanian Christian names until the 1730s. if any one would like more information on my family's heritage or an article on the history of Lithuania Minor feel free to email me at mskubinna at yahoo. (Maternal DNA = H1a1; my mother surname is Gadow from Pomerania, R1b-M269.)

arvistro
05-09-16, 19:48
I noticed today there was some interest in my surname, Skubinna. My FTDNA Kit is #415060/R1a-YP569. Testing indicates the family goes back to the Ryazan Oblast of Russia in the 1500s. In 1600, they were living in Latvia. At some point after that year, they were Lithuanians living in Lithuania Minor which when it became part of Germany was known as East Prussia. According to the language experts at the Library of Congress, the name Skubina/Skubinna is Lithuanian and means "to be in a hurry" or "to be quick." My direct ancestor was Petras/Peter Skubinna. In 1720 he was paying land taxes at Loyen (near Dubeningken) in Kreis/County Goldap, East Prussia. His sons all had Lithuanian Christian names until the 1730s. if any one would like more information on my family's heritage or an article on the history of Lithuania Minor feel free to email me at mskubinna at yahoo.
So, East Slavic subclade it is.
But in general, a great family story. Showing how interconnected we actually are and how our identities can change.
"..family goes back to the Ryazan Oblast of Russia in the 1500s. In 1600, they were living in Latvia. At some point after that year, they were Lithuanians living in Lithuania Minor which when it became part of Germany was known as East Prussia."
Russians, Latvians, Lithuanians, and now Americans.


btw in modern Latvian too 'skubināt' = 'to hurry (someone)'.

Skubinna
06-09-16, 04:24
Thanks for the reply and information on modern Latvian. East Slavic subclade it is. :) Regards, Martin S.

Dagne
06-09-16, 07:15
I had a look at the dictionary of Lithuanian Surnames (last names) - your name is recorded in several variations as SKUBA, SKUBAS, SKUBĖ, SKUBE, besides the name is also recorded in Latvian, Belorussian, Polish and Russian sources in similar sounding versions Belaruss. Скуба, Скубило, Polish Skubiej, Skubiejko, Skubiel, Skubik, Rus. Скуб, Скуба, Скубaк, Скубенко


The meaning in Lithuanian (as well as Latvian) is very clear - the stem "skub" means to hurry, to be quick, to accomplish something in a swift manner, a nickname for someone who was swift, fast runner. A similar anglo-saxon name would be Mr Swift.
Inasmuch as I know, however, the name does not mean anything in Polish, Russian, Belorussian languages - in the slavic languages there are other words for "swift", or "to hurry (someone)".

Tomenable
06-09-16, 08:19
I noticed today there was some interest in my surname, Skubinna. My FTDNA Kit is #415060/R1a-YP569. Testing indicates the family goes back to the Ryazan Oblast of Russia in the 1500s. In 1600, they were living in Latvia. At some point after that year, they were Lithuanians living in Lithuania Minor which when it became part of Germany was known as East Prussia. According to the language experts at the Library of Congress, the name Skubina/Skubinna is Lithuanian and means "to be in a hurry" or "to be quick." My direct ancestor was Petras/Peter Skubinna. In 1720 he was paying land taxes at Loyen (near Dubeningken) in Kreis/County Goldap, East Prussia. His sons all had Lithuanian Christian names until the 1730s. if any one would like more information on my family's heritage or an article on the history of Lithuania Minor feel free to email me at mskubinna at yahoo. (Maternal DNA = H1a1; my mother surname is Gadow from Pomerania, R1b-M269.)


Wow, a very interesting family history.

It shows that people really were moving around. And apparently your ancestors on the Y-line also "changed their ethnicity" a few times (from Russian to Latvian to Lithuanian to German to "American" - or were they still Lithuanian-speakers when they came to the USA?).

Skubinna
06-09-16, 14:35
Wow, a very interesting family history.

It shows that people really were moving around. And apparently your ancestors on the Y-line also "changed their ethnicity" a few times (from Russian to Latvian to Lithuanian to German to "American" - or were they still Lithuanian-speakers when they came to the USA?).

Dagne, thank you for the interesting information from the Lithuanian dictionary. It was helpful and I appreciate your efforts on my behalf.

As for Tomenable's question, as far as I can tell from the church records going back to the 1730, a few of my Skubinna relatives were still using Lithuanian names as late as the 1840s. None after that date.

My paternal Great-Grandfather came to the U.S.A. in 1885. He only spoke German, but because he originally engaged in timbering in Michigan he had Swedish employees and learned that language. In 1892, he move to North Dakota and became a prosperous rancher. He hired fellow Germans and a number of Russian men and women to work for him raising wheat. So he also learned enough Russian to be able to work with them.

Dagne
07-09-16, 10:11
Amazing family history!
“Skuba” etymology is even more exciting – the word originates from proto Germano- Balto -Slavic verbs with a stem *skeub – meaning “to push”, “to move” which, respectively, originates from Indo-European *skeu – “to through something”, to move something”, “to push”, “to hurry”.

Amazing, it seems that your name has meant exactly the same in the Indo-European Protolanguage as it reads to me now!

Skubinna
07-09-16, 16:46
It is amazing the name has meant the same thing for so many generations and thousands of years! Thanks for the great information!!!

Volat
07-09-16, 17:36
I had a look at the dictionary of Lithuanian Surnames (last names) - your name is recorded in several variations as SKUBA, SKUBAS, SKUBĖ, SKUBE, besides the name is also recorded in Latvian, Belorussian, Polish and Russian sources in similar sounding versions Belaruss. Скуба, Скубило, Polish Skubiej, Skubiejko, Skubiel, Skubik, Rus. Скуб, Скуба, Скубaк, Скубенко


The meaning in Lithuanian (as well as Latvian) is very clear - the stem "skub" means to hurry, to be quick, to accomplish something in a swift manner, a nickname for someone who was swift, fast runner. A similar anglo-saxon name would be Mr Swift.
Inasmuch as I know, however, the name does not mean anything in Polish, Russian, Belorussian languages - in the slavic languages there are other words for "swift", or "to hurry (someone)".


Among eastern Slavs this surname is derived from old given name Skuba.

lyakh
08-09-16, 17:29
It is interesting if among typically, "truly" Baltic (especially West Baltic) there are any clades of R1a without mutation Z92, especially if there are some (West) Baltic clades of R1a-CTS3402+.
I am interested if some subclades of R-CTS3402 (especially Y33+ CTS8816+ Y3301+) are Baltic, not Slavic in origin.

arvistro
08-09-16, 19:09
Z92+ is strange. It is kind of Baltic based on modern distribution (South Baltic one mutation + East Slavic other mutation). Maybe it was Galindians (East and West).

In modern East Balts it is not really popular, maybe 5-10% of total.

Volat
08-09-16, 20:07
There hasn't been done thorough analysis of Z92+ at a deeper resolution. I haven't seen anyone separating Slavic and Baltic clades under Z92+.

Eastern Slavs certainly have this marker with frequency of Z92+ peaking among Belarusians around 25% of all R1a1 clades or 12-13% of all male population based on large size sample (n=1081) in published study. Eastern Balts also have it with Lithuanians have it more than Latvians. Lithuanians have Z92+ 33% of R1a1 clades (information is based on FTDNA's data) or 15% of all male population based on published study. Poles 9% of all R1a1 clades (FTDNA information). Around 5.5% of all Polish male population. Z92+ likely common among western Balts.

Tomenable
08-09-16, 20:17
I haven't seen anyone separating Slavic and Baltic clades under Z92+.

I would say that most of Z92+ are probably Baltic subclades.

arvistro
08-09-16, 21:50
There hasn't been done thorough analysis of Z92+ at a deeper resolution. As a carrier of Z92+, I haven't seen anyone separating Slavic and Baltic clades under Z92+.
This is what user Michal wrote on R1a, he is quite erudite in R1a finesses:
"Z92 has rarely (if ever) been tested in previous research studies, so I doubt such a map exists. However, here is a map (by Igor Rozhanskii) that should help you a bit in this respect: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...g.kMX9UHiC_AJ4 (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=52.041397%2C43.932603&spn=17.332806%2C96.840056&ptab=2&hl=en&oe=UTF8&msa=0&source=embed&ie=UTF8&mid=zCFuZT9R8rxg.kMX9UHiC_AJ4)
(pink - YP569, yellow - YP270, green - CTS9551, grey - unknown/unclustered)

YP270 (including both CTS4648 and its "slightly more Eastern" brother clade YP351) seems to have been associated mostly with the ancient Yotvingians/Sudovians, although I wouldn't exclude its early presence among some other West Baltic and/or East Baltic tribes.

YP569 is commonly considered an Eastern Slavic subclade. IMO, this was likely an initially East Baltic subclade (associated with the Yukhnov culture?) that was relatively early included in the locally expanding Proto-Slavic population, thus becoming a part of the Late Zarubintsy (Pochep)->Kiev->Kolochin cultures before expanding with the Early Slavs (or more precisely with the ancestors of the Eastern Slavs), mostly northward and eastward. As for the East Baltic (Slavicized) Yukhnov culture, I would also see it as associated with some other subclades under both Z92 (like CTS9551) and YP237 (like YP578). As both Lithuanians and Latvians are commonly believed to have arrived to their today's locations from south-east, they could have also included some East Baltic subclades that were present in the neighboring Yukhnov culture, so at least a small fraction of early YP569 members could have never been Slavicized (being associated with the ancient Lithuanians and other East Balts instead). However, in such case it is difficult to explain why the frequency of YP569 among the Latvians is so low. One possible explanation is that those ancient ancestors of Latvians were initially located north (or rather north-east) of the ancestors of Lithuanians, so their contact with both Yukhnov (YP569) and the Sudovian culture (Yotvingians, YP270) was very limited."

lyakh
09-09-16, 11:21
What with YP237? It is not under Z92. It is a subclade of R1a-Z280+ CTS1211+ Y35+ CTS3402+. Is it possible that all R-YP237 was initially Baltic, not Slavic?
One of subbranches of YP237 (YP235+ YP234+ YP238+ L365+) can be called "(East) Pomeranian". It is common among Kashubians who live in Eastern Pomerania now.
I am interesting if L365 "possessors" are descendants of slavicised (Western) Balts.

Volat
10-09-16, 05:40
Maybe of interest reconstruction of physical appearance of Yotvingians (western Balts) of western Belarus dated to late 10th century.



http://cs544.vkontakte.ru/u4168392/67582189/x_a2d6a0ed.jpg