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andresasj
04-08-16, 04:41
Berbers are white or caucasoid people?

LeBrok
04-08-16, 05:39
Post definitions for both and we can tell. ;)

Twilight
05-08-16, 11:44
Berbers are white or caucasoid people?

The thing about race classification, you can only tell someone's race by the color of their skin or the shape of their skull. With the advent of genetics, it appears that we are all a mix of something. For example I can now say that I decended from Germanic, Celtic, West Slavic tribes and the Romans without much scrutiny. Before genetics, it could considered offensive to say you were decended from Anglo-Saxons simply because they were sometimes considered "Germanic Barbarians" and popular to emphasize our "Civilized" Roman Component.

As for Berbers, As Far as race goes they were considered either Hamitic or Semetiche historically. However with genetic technology Berbers can nowadays claim ancestors like African, Roman, Phoenician; via Carthrage, and Middle Eastern ancestry; via Islamic Settlement.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization)#/media/File%3AMeyers_b11_s0476a.jpg


Here is more information about the history of Berber culture.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers

Angela
05-08-16, 15:34
Carlos, your post is totally off topic.

I have started a new thread for it.

Athiudisc
05-08-16, 15:39
Berbers are white or caucasoid people?

Yes.

More seriously, they're "Caucasian," in the anthropological sense, and whether or not they're white depends on where you are and whom you're speaking with.

They're "white" according to my government, for example, but most of them wouldn't pass as white amongst random passersby here.

bicicleur
05-08-16, 15:59
The thing about race classification, you can only tell someone's race by the color of their skin or the shape of their skull. With the advent of genetics, it appears that we are all a mix of something. For example I can now say that I decended from Germanic, Celtic, West Slavic tribes and the Romans without much scrutiny. Before genetics, it could considered offensive to say you were decended from Anglo-Saxons simply because they were sometimes considered "Germanic Barbarians" and popular to emphasize our "Civilized" Roman Component.

As for Berbers, As Far as race goes they were considered either Hamitic or Semetiche historically. However with genetic technology Berbers can nowadays claim ancestors like African, Roman, Phoenician; via Carthrage, and Middle Eastern ancestry; via Islamic Settlement.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization)#/media/File%3AMeyers_b11_s0476a.jpg


Here is more information about the history of Berber culture.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers

it is easier to describe Berbers not as a race but as speakers of a Berber language, or descendants thereof.

Y-DNA of the Berbers is quite well-known though

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-M81.gif

Twilight
05-08-16, 20:17
it is easier to describe Berbers not as a race but as speakers of a Berber language, or descendants thereof.

Y-DNA of the Berbers is quite well-known though

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-M81.gif
I do admit, it's really difficult trying to explain and translate from Caucasoid race to Ancient civilizations. But thanks for posting more examples to my point. :)

This is another example of the Ancient African/Some Greco-Roman component that I was referring too
earlier. Greco-Romans also carried R1b-U152, J2 and some other lineages and some of the Romans settled in Africa

Angela
05-08-16, 21:09
I'm not aware of any Ancient African/ Roman/Greek component in North Africa. I would caution that we don't yet know what yDna the Romans carried. We're all just speculating. However, if they had high percentages of relatively downstream R1b then it's highly unlikely they had much genetic impact in North Africa, as there's precious little of that in North Africa. Plus, while there were some Roman settlers in North Africa there weren't very many and they were very circumscribed as to location.

The genetic ties between the Berbers and all Europeans, not just Southern Europeans, is much older and stems from the Neolithic movements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa_during_Antiquity#Roman_era

You're right that the old terms like Caucasoid have limited usefulness, although I suppose in a general sense, Caucasoid might be "West Eurasian". People who are majority West Eurasians can have minority admixture from other groups. So, the Berbers are majority "West Eurasian", but can have SSA admixture in varying percentages, just like South Asians, at least more northern South Asians, can have majority West Eurasian with minority ASE. Some of them are more like mestizo populations or even more slanted toward non-West Eurasian ancestry.

Twilight
06-08-16, 06:13
I'm not aware of any Ancient African/ Roman/Greek component in North Africa. I would caution that we don't yet know what yDna the Romans carried. We're all just speculating. However, if they had high percentages of relatively downstream R1b then it's highly unlikely they had much genetic impact in North Africa, as there's precious little of that in North Africa. Plus, while there were some Roman settlers in North Africa there weren't very many and they were very circumscribed as to location.

The genetic ties between the Berbers and all Europeans, not just Southern Europeans, is much older and stems from the Neolithic movements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa_during_Antiquity#Roman_era

You're right that the old terms like Caucasoid have limited usefulness, although I suppose in a general sense, Caucasoid might be "West Eurasian". People who are majority West Eurasians can have minority admixture from other groups. So, the Berbers are majority "West Eurasian", but can have SSA admixture in varying percentages, just like South Asians, at least more northern South Asians, can have majority West Eurasian with minority ASE. Some of them are more like mestizo populations or even more slanted toward non-West Eurasian ancestry.

Good to know on the ydna department, never really thought about Ancient civilization ydna being speculative before.:embarassed:

RobertColumbia
06-08-16, 06:28
Classical peoples seem to have considered Berbers to be civilized or at least worthy of civilization. St. Augustine is probably one of the most famous Berbers that is commonly seen as a "European" person (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo), despite being from Africa and originating from an African ethnic group. He probably neither looked like some random Irish guy nor looked like a Viking, but he was seemingly accepted into a European Christian milieu. This likely leads to one of two conclusions:

1) Berbers, or at least St. Augustine, were considered white or Caucasoid by other European peoples, especially Romans and Greeks.
2) Classical European peoples, especially Greeks and Romans, did not recognize, or at least did not emphasize as important, the concept of whiteness or being Caucasoid.

Angela
06-08-16, 16:02
Classical peoples seem to have considered Berbers to be civilized or at least worthy of civilization. St. Augustine is probably one of the most famous Berbers that is commonly seen as a "European" person (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo), despite being from Africa and originating from an African ethnic group. He probably neither looked like some random Irish guy nor looked like a Viking, but he was seemingly accepted into a European Christian milieu. This likely leads to one of two conclusions:

1) Berbers, or at least St. Augustine, were considered white or Caucasoid by other European peoples, especially Romans and Greeks.
2) Classical European peoples, especially Greeks and Romans, did not recognize, or at least did not emphasize as important, the concept of whiteness or being Caucasoid.

Perhaps both? They couldn't have been unaware of the differences in "phenotype" among the many different peoples they encountered, but to my knowledge while, for example, the Romans of the Republic hated the Carthaginians like poison, I don't recall that relative "shades" of pigmentation came into the matter. In terms of the "Syrians", which they often used as a blanket term for the Near East, and the "Egyptians", the early Romans of the Republic feared their influence in terms of their religions, their love of luxury, the "god" like status they gave their rulers, all things you might say they eventually adopted, but I don't remember reading of them fearing them because they "looked" different. Nor were slaves treated differently based on "race" to my knowledge. Bad or good it was all the same, although "educated", "literate" slaves, so slaves from Greece or the Near East were more valued in many cases. An educated, coastal North African would undoubtedly have been considered "civilized", I would think, if not some pastoral nomad of the more interior areas.

In terms of the Berbers we don't even know what they looked like at the time that they came into contact with Rome. We would need a string of ancient dna results to know whether at that time more of them looked like the first picture, which is now a minority, or the second, which is also a minority, or somewhere in between, or how much variation there was, for that matter, within and between areas.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Zinedine_Zidane_20minutos.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/23/article-1305414-0AE40A63000005DC-863_226x326.jpg

https://cdn.theculturetrip.com/images/19-9681-morocco-france-rabat-3449272-l.jpg


As for Augustine, I was condemned to study "The Confessions" in high school, even translated some of him from the original, and I don't think his "race" ever came up, but then neither did the "race" of the Egyptian hermits and monks, or of Jews like Jesus, and Mary, and Peter, and Paul, and on and on. Anyway, despite the fact that I resented translating him as much as I did translating Caesar, I quite liked Augustine...there he was, intellectually and spiritually drawn to his mother's religion, but quite unable for a long time to drag himself away from the fleshpots and all his vices. Well, all Monica's praying worked in the end, which is why she was held up to us as the model of Catholic motherhood, but I do like his very human prayer, "Lord, grant me chastity; but not yet." :)

That wasn't the part emphasized by my teachers of course. We were to have the utmost respect for him. We were also taught to mourn the fall of his "city", "The City of Man", Hippo, in his dichotomy, to the barbarians as he lay dying. Our teacher made it very affecting, indeed. The North Africans were part of the "civilized" world; it was the Vandals who were the barbarians. Maybe that's part of why I find so many things posted on these kinds of Boards so bizarre.

@Twilight,

Absent ancient dna, which we've gotten only recently, how can the assignment of y dna lineages be anything but speculative? Granted, some speculations are more supported by modern dna studies, archaeology, linguistics, etc., than others, but major mistakes can be made. After all, many people thought until just recently that down stream R1b clades originated in, and spread from, the Atlantic seaboard.

Twilight
06-08-16, 17:27
Twilight,

Absent ancient dna, which we've gotten only recently, how can the assignment of y dna lineages be anything but speculative? Granted, some speculations are more supported by modern dna studies, archaeology, linguistics, etc., than others, but major mistakes can be made. After all, many people thought until just recently that down stream R1b clades originated in, and spread from, the Atlantic seaboard.

True, all archeology, genetics and linguistics are prone to errors. However regardless the Romans settled there regardless of how small their genetic contribution and I feel like it is worth celebrating as well as other ancient civilizations that came before and after. It's almost like finding a possible long distance cousin. Some tribes are prone to assimilate so no country is 100% of one ancient race or civilization. Personally genetics for me is also like picking exploring places in history where you might have overlooked. :)

MOESAN
06-08-16, 18:40
Classical peoples seem to have considered Berbers to be civilized or at least worthy of civilization. St. Augustine is probably one of the most famous Berbers that is commonly seen as a "European" person (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo), despite being from Africa and originating from an African ethnic group. He probably neither looked like some random Irish guy nor looked like a Viking, but he was seemingly accepted into a European Christian milieu. This likely leads to one of two conclusions:

1) Berbers, or at least St. Augustine, were considered white or Caucasoid by other European peoples, especially Romans and Greeks.
2) Classical European peoples, especially Greeks and Romans, did not recognize, or at least did not emphasize as important, the concept of whiteness or being Caucasoid.

There is some illogical aspect in your twin statements (no offense). If the concept of whiteness or caucasoidness was without sense for these ancients, then tour first statement is senseless.
More generally, I think first Berbers were very "white" and "caucasoids". We cannot take in account the southern Targhi or Touareg (I'm lost concerning singular and plural) as basis. When you take Kabyles or Rifians of Marocco as example you have 'west-asian' people, nothing else. And the Arabic inheritage cannot be taken as typically Berber.
Concerning the too well known opposition between genetics and typology, I would say there is NO race at all because all of us (animals) have genes inherited from older stages of mamals history. "Race" concept appears when a LOT of differences are found between groups, and when these differences are correlate with isolation. Otherwise we are chimps or apes, perhaps pigs... Allways some relativity.
&: as said Maciamo, even "tiger" or "lion" are not race concepts on the basis of genetics! they can cross-reproduce themselves with reproductive descendants!

Angela
06-08-16, 21:16
Moesan, I don't think it's that difficult to understand what Robert Columbia was getting at, especially if you look at it in an American context. Plus, he phrased it as an either/or proposition. I'm the one who probably messed things up.

In America, "whiteness" determined your social and legal status. The main groups for a long time were British/German descended people among whom there were a lot of blonde/blue-eyed/fair skinned members, and Africans or Amerindians. So, "whiteness" and even "Caucasian" came to be defined in that context. North Africans and even West Asians can't fit into those categories easily with or without visible SSA admixture. There were all sorts of lawsuits, for example, where the Lebanese had to fight in the courts to be recognized as "white" people.

Now, it's true that perhaps the "original" North Africans were of a mainly "West Asian" type, although we can't know that for sure without some ancient samples. They still wouldn't necessarily have been classified as "white" by American census takers of the time, although they were, of course, "Caucasoid".

It's also true that neither of those terms would have been known or understood by the Romans, and furthermore there's nothing that I know of to indicate that even had some of the North African slaves at that time had some SSA admixture, that they would have necessarily been treated differently than, say, a Greek slave, solely on that basis.

Robert, if I got that wrong, feel free to let me have it! :)

Promenade
08-08-16, 19:47
I also believe that white and caucasoid are somewhat subjective terms that mean different things to different people but I think I understand what andresasj is trying to ask here and I wont touch upon the semantics of it.

I think his question boils down to if the Berbers were people of an unusually lighter phenotype than we expect from the North African region or fairer looking than non Berber populations there.

I've actually noticed from anecdotal observation that the Kabyle people of Algeria seem much lighter than the arabic speaking population(One I know has blonde highlights, they also seem taller than the average north african). Wikipedia claims that Carleton S. Coone noted a "a major nordic contribution" in the Kabyle. Of course they do not have any Scandinavian ancestry(I doubt the Vandals left much of a legacy) and Coone's classifications were amateur, but it just goes to show that for a long period of time people have noticed the Kabyle and other Berber populations have an usually fair phenotype. I'm sure everyone's familiar with the Egyptian hieroglyph of the four populations(Egyptian, Nubian, Asiatic and Libyan) depicting the Libyan as looking uncannily fair compared to their swarthy Egyptian neighbors. Kabyle, Riffians and other Berber populations might have represented the original fairer looking inhabitants of the area that were displaced, but that is complete speculation on my behalf.

I've read Augustine's Confessions and I dont remember him describing the physical appearance of the Africans vs the Romans, he was much more concerned with his religious crisis. If there was any kind of ethnic prejudice against the north African populations by the Romans I believe he would have touched upon it. Considering how the the north African provinces were much wealthier than many non italic European provinces at the time they were probably accepted much more and considered more civilized in Rome and Milan as compared to say a Gaul would be. So I dont think you could discern the physical appearance of north africans at the time based on that.

We have genetic samples from ancient north africa now, correct? Genetic studies done on modern Kabyle y-dna shows a high percentage of Haplogroup R1 (16 percent) and these were done in areas that were least secluded. I have no clue if it has any correlation with their lighter features but I'm just throwing out things I've come across.
What does the analysis on the ancient populations there reveal about their autosomal and y-dna? Do the samples have any genes known to be linked with fairer features?

Angela
08-08-16, 20:30
We don't have ancient autosomal dna from North Africa, which is what would tell you about pigmentation...

As for the Berbers, it depends which Berbers are under discussion. The Tuareg are Berbers too.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2c/4c/29/2c4c29b907f569f4c80ed956f3df5efd.jpg

The Mozabites:
http://bf.img.v4.skyrock.net/4751/70274751/pics/3014076275_2_13_Xo6CaLQe.jpg

They're about 20% SSA, to the best of my recollection.


Also, I don't think it's accurate to see Berber North Africans versus "Arab" North Africans as two completely distinct ethnic groups. A lot of so called, by themselves as well as by others, "Arab" North Africans, have a lot of "Berber" ancestry; it's just that they no longer speak a Berber language. There's still a lot of controversy as to how much of an impact the "Arab" invasions actually had.


http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber

"The Berbers live mainly in Morocco (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Morocco) (between 35 percent-60 percent of the population) and in Algeria (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Algeria)(about 15 33 percent of the population), as well as Libya (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Libya) and Tunisia (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tunisia), though exact statistics are unavailable. [7] (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber#cite_note-6) Most North Africans (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/North_Africa) who consider themselves Arab (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Arab) also have significant Berberancestry. [8] (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber#cite_note-7) Prominent Berber groups include the Kabyles of northern Algeria, who number approximately four million and have kept, to a large degree, their original language and culture (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Culture); and the Chleuh (francophone plural of Arabic "Shalh") and Tashelhiyt of south Morocco, numbering about eight million. Other groups include the Riffians of north Morocco, the Chaouia of Algeria, and theTuareg (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tuareg) of the Sahara (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Sahara). "

Also, could you please provide a source for the percentage of R1b in North Africa? My recollection is that it varies a great deal by country. It's also important whether we're talking about upstream or downstream clades.

In my opinion, the Wiki article on North African genetics is not reliable as it looks as if one of the internet warriors has been at it.

You can look at this Henn et al paper on their autosomal make up, but I'm not so sure about the relatively recent date they come up with for West African admixture(post or contemporary to the Arab slaves trade. There are all sorts of problems with those programs. Anyway, there's a difference between East African and West African.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397

.

Carlos
09-08-16, 00:10
In my mind wikipedia, only 20% of Moroccan men are Arabs the rest would Berbers. That 20% is likely to have autosomal berber due to the time of the conquest and Islamization of Morocco, Berbers probably took at first wives after Arab women would bring. As I have ascertained there are three kinds of Berbers, 1. Berbers of great rectitude. 2. traders Berbers. 3. Berbers given to revelry and carousing.


Personally I consider it the white or Caucasoid, from this part of Europe from which I speak is not required or values ‚Äč‚Äčthat the skin is white as snow, you can even see as a lack or absence of any ingredient. You may elsewhere from another point of view the European Nordic model is considered as the example of the white race, the very northern Europe, perhaps North America and other fans, but from Western Europe where I am not given exclusivity north Europe in the monopoly of the white race. I do not like to talk about these issues but has since left.

andresasj
09-08-16, 03:40
Thanks for answer!

andresasj
09-08-16, 03:42
Ignore it. I do not know the answer to the question can anyone help me
:embarassed::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

andresasj
09-08-16, 03:46
Thanks for your question! ^^)

Twilight
09-08-16, 04:17
Ignore it. I do not know the answer to the question can anyone help me
:embarassed::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

Sure thing, what is the question specifically? ^_^

andresasj
09-08-16, 04:56
Sure thing, what is the question specifically? ^_^

I can not delete my answers in my own question. How do I delete my answers?

Promenade
09-08-16, 20:50
We don't have ancient autosomal dna from North Africa, which is what would tell you about pigmentation...

As for the Berbers, it depends which Berbers are under discussion. The Tuareg are Berbers too.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2c/4c/29/2c4c29b907f569f4c80ed956f3df5efd.jpg

The Mozabites:
http://bf.img.v4.skyrock.net/4751/70274751/pics/3014076275_2_13_Xo6CaLQe.jpg

They're about 20% SSA, to the best of my recollection.


Also, I don't think it's accurate to see Berber North Africans versus "Arab" North Africans as two completely distinct ethnic groups. A lot of so called, by themselves as well as by others, "Arab" North Africans, have a lot of "Berber" ancestry; it's just that they no longer speak a Berber language. There's still a lot of controversy as to how much of an impact the "Arab" invasions actually had.


http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber

"The Berbers live mainly in Morocco (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Morocco) (between 35 percent-60 percent of the population) and in Algeria (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Algeria)(about 15 33 percent of the population), as well as Libya (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Libya) and Tunisia (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tunisia), though exact statistics are unavailable. [7] (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber#cite_note-6) Most North Africans (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/North_Africa) who consider themselves Arab (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Arab) also have significant Berberancestry. [8] (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Berber#cite_note-7) Prominent Berber groups include the Kabyles of northern Algeria, who number approximately four million and have kept, to a large degree, their original language and culture (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Culture); and the Chleuh (francophone plural of Arabic "Shalh") and Tashelhiyt of south Morocco, numbering about eight million. Other groups include the Riffians of north Morocco, the Chaouia of Algeria, and theTuareg (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tuareg) of the Sahara (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Sahara). "

Also, could you please provide a source for the percentage of R1b in North Africa? My recollection is that it varies a great deal by country. It's also important whether we're talking about upstream or downstream clades.

In my opinion, the Wiki article on North African genetics is not reliable as it looks as if one of the internet warriors has been at it.

You can look at this Henn et al paper on their autosomal make up, but I'm not so sure about the relatively recent date they come up with for West African admixture(post or contemporary to the Arab slaves trade. There are all sorts of problems with those programs. Anyway, there's a difference between East African and West African.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397

.


I guess I should have been clearer when I mentioned Berbers because it is as much of a language group as an ethnic group and a Tuareg will differ substantially from a Kabyle but I think that we understand that he was referring to Berber groups like the Riffians and Kabyle and obviously not the Taureg and berber groups in the south that have come in contact with a lot of admixture from SSA.

And I do believe there is a very big difference between the Arab speaking and Berber speaking africans to refer to them as different ethnic groups, at least culturally. The Berber speaking populations live in separate geographical regions, speak their own language, have a separate culture, even have their own writing system and political parties. But I think the point of this thread is to ask the question "is this difference also genetic and reflected through phenotype?"

My source for the y-dna is just what I saw from the wiki, supposedly it also came from Tizi Ouzou which is one of the less secluded areas. I don't think the wiki looked very reliable either but it's the only place I found any genetic info on them that wasn't behind a pay wall. It was R1b1a1a2 (R-M269) so it's related to the European R1b subclades. This was found among Mesolithic populations in Spain, correct?

The study reports that Maghrebi ancestry results from back to africa migrations around 12,000 years ago. Egyptians, Algerians And North Morrocans seem to have roughly equal amounts South European autosomal dna but Egyptians and Libyans have fare more east african and Near eastern ancestry. Tunisian Berbers were almost purely maghrebi, I wonder how Kabyle and Riffians compare?

Angela
09-08-16, 23:01
Yes, I know that the "Berbers" by definition speak the Berber language and still follow more ancient customs to varying degrees. The point is that many "Berbers" assimilated into the elite population, and lost their customs and language. So, the Arabic speaking North Africans are not 100% "Arabic" or descended 100% from later migrants. That's not even close. So, in terms of genetics it's not "pure Berbers" whatever that even means, versus pure Arabs.

Yes, I also get that the fascination is with pigmentation, again, and some desire to know if before the advent of the slave trade all North Africans were as "white" looking as the ones who look "whitest" now, like the Kabyles and the Riffians. The answer is that we don't know, and will have to wait for ancient dna.

As to your comments about R1b, yes, one study found R1b at 16% in some Kabyles, but in Moroccan Berbers the highest every found was about 2%, so I don't see how "paleness" can be correlated in North Africa with R1b.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n7/fig_tab/ejhg2009231t1.html#figure-title

The paper that typed the R1b in the Kabyles is very old and the R1b designations are based only on STRs.

Arredi et al: A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(07)62417-3

"R1*(xR1a1,R1b1-R1b8)"

As to Mesolithic Spain, there has never been any R1b found. La Brana is C1a2, Loschbour in Luxembourg is I2a1b.

This is a good resource for published ancient dna results:

Paleolithic:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/palaeolithicdna.shtml

Mesolithic:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

As you can see, Villabruna from Italy is R1b, but none in Iberia.

You don't need to have R1b to have pale pigmentation. There were depigmentation snps present in the Anatolia Neolithic, and no R1b so far.

Promenade
10-08-16, 01:07
Yes, I know that the "Berbers" by definition speak the Berber language and still follow more ancient customs to varying degrees. The point is that many "Berbers" assimilated into the elite population, and lost their customs and language. So, the Arabic speaking North Africans are not 100% "Arabic" or descended 100% from later migrants. That's not even close. So, in terms of genetics it's not "pure Berbers" whatever that even means, versus pure Arabs.

Yes, I also get that the fascination is with pigmentation, again, and some desire to know if before the advent of the slave trade all North Africans were as "white" looking as the ones who look "whitest" now, like the Kabyles and the Riffians. The answer is that we don't know, and will have to wait for ancient dna.

As to your comments about R1b, yes, one study found R1b at 16% in some Kabyles, but in Moroccan Berbers the highest every found was about 2%, so I don't see how "paleness" can be correlated in North Africa with R1b.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n7/fig_tab/ejhg2009231t1.html#figure-title

The paper that typed the R1b in the Kabyles is very old and the R1b designations are based only on STRs.

Arredi et al: A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(07)62417-3

"R1*(xR1a1,R1b1-R1b8)"

As to Mesolithic Spain, there has never been any R1b found. La Brana is C1a2, Loschbour in Luxembourg is I2a1b.

This is a good resource for published ancient dna results:

Paleolithic:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/palaeolithicdna.shtml

Mesolithic:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

As you can see, Villabruna from Italy is R1b, but none in Iberia.

You don't need to have R1b to have pale pigmentation. There were depigmentation snps present in the Anatolia Neolithic, and no R1b so far.


I think you took my speculations a little too seriously. I dont think there is a single person here who thinks that you need R1b or any specific y dna haplogroup to have pale skin, I just thought it was interesting that it was found at higher levels within the Kabyle population and that it was perhaps something to look into. I was going to make a point in my first post that autosomal data would be more important but I think that's a given.(The fact that none of arab algerians had y-dna R despite almost twice as many arab algerians being tested compared to berber algerians who had y-dna R at 16 percent is still an important observation though. Seems berber algerians have significantly less y-dna J compared to arab algerians as well, but of course the sample size is not ideal)

It's not a black and white arab vs berber split in these countries, they've obviously mixed and no one ever said either group was purely homogeneous. I just wanted to make it clear that although although there is an overlap there is also a cultural and possibly even a genetic split to an extent. When I say arab algerian i dont mean that this person is a person who originated from the arabian peninsula, I mean that this person speaks arab and does not participate in the same cultural aspects that berber speaking algerians do.

The data from the Tunisian Berbers show that there is a large genetic disparity between the arab and berber speaking groups, my guess would be it's the same in Algeria.

Angela
10-08-16, 02:33
I think you took my speculations a little too seriously. I dont think there is a single person here who thinks that you need R1b or any specific y dna haplogroup to have pale skin, I just thought it was interesting that it was found at higher levels within the Kabyle population and that it was perhaps something to look into. I was going to make a point in my first post that autosomal data would be more important but I think that's a given.(The fact that none of arab algerians had y-dna R despite almost twice as many arab algerians being tested compared to berber algerians who had y-dna R at 16 percent is still an important observation though. Seems berber algerians have significantly less y-dna J compared to arab algerians as well, but of course the sample size is not ideal)

It's not a black and white arab vs berber split in these countries, they've obviously mixed and no one ever said either group was purely homogeneous. I just wanted to make it clear that although although there is an overlap there is also a cultural and possibly even a genetic split to an extent. When I say arab algerian i dont mean that this person is a person who originated from the arabian peninsula, I mean that this person speaks arab and does not participate in the same cultural aspects that berber speaking algerians do.

The data from the Tunisian Berbers show that there is a large genetic disparity between the arab and berber speaking groups, my guess would be it's the same in Algeria.

I hate to be nitpicking all the time, but actually there is indeed R1b in the general Algerian population, although it wasn't found in that study. It's found at 2% in one of the papers to which I linked. It's very downstream, though, so probably Roman or other European people, perhaps even slaves.

As the Berbers are a very isolated group, in whom founder effects would loom very large, I'd be cautious about reading too much into their yDna distributions regarding total genetic similarity.

Angela
10-08-16, 17:01
In thinking about this, it occurred to me that on the anthrofora where this is a "hot" topic, a balanced or broad range of Kabyle phenotypes might not have been published. So...

Abane Ramdane:
http://www.algerie1.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/AbaneRamdane684109861.jpg

Krim Belkacim,
http://ekladata.com/dQOOGCB6cv0oQlzgUYA7gvbGPUk.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gh3VVqAYJVc/hqdefault.jpg
Ferhat Mehenni:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HpP4VRfq4LU/maxresdefault.jpg

Idris Aberkane:
http://www.lanouvellerepublique.fr/var/nrv2/storage/images/contenus/articles/2014/01/26/idriss-aberkane-l-accoucheur-des-geeks-de-gatine-1772253/33025040-1-fre-FR/Idriss-Aberkane-l-accoucheur-des-geeks-de-Gatine_reference.jpg

Idir
https://kabylia.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/idir.jpg

Said Sadi
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/43/Photo_Said_Sadi.jpg

Karim Benzema
http://www.billionairesnewswire.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/shutterstock_246677065.jpg

Mustaphaa Oourad:
http://www.siwel.info/photo/art/default/7345789-11306881.jpg?v=1421079571

I got the names from the Wiki entry for famous Kabyles. I chose randomly in a couple of categories, with the exception of Benzema.

A few might pass in southern Europe, but most would not.

So, if the pre-Arab Conquest North Africans looked like them, which ones did they look like, or was there variety even then? We just don't know.

MOESAN
12-08-16, 01:04
The question - for me - was: are the Berbers Eurasians as a whole, as an original pop. I answered I thought yes.
That said, first Arabs were in the same case.
Yes, today Berbers are differentiated within them, a lot of SSA auDNA came apparently from South, maybe at different times (constant osmosis by proximity + raids?), rather females mediated.
Yes, a lot of today "Arabs" of the Maghreb has more northwestern Africa DNA than truly southwestasian DNA.
A study about Algerians, Berbers Zenetes and Mozabites, Yoruba, French Basques, Palestinians, shows:
- Some individual cases are RECENT crossings, so not representative of far past
- The Zenetes are spred all the way between Yoruba and Algerians as concerning X chromospme (not mtDNA!) as concerning auDNA
- The Algerians are between Mozabites and Palestinians for auDNA
- The Palestinians are between Algerians and Basques for auDNA (in fact by absence of Mozabites elements?)
- The Mozabites are far enough from Basques but ARE NOT DRIFTED TOWARDS YORUBA IN ANY WAY: so we have to look for an other SSA or so called SSA component in them: eastafrican? It could explain the very light imput of 'negroid' in their phenotypes
- for X chromosome, Algerians, Mozabites and Palestinians overlap greatly, AND EVEN BASQUES tend to go closer to Palestinians, confirming ancient surveys concluding that X chromosomes don't show great oppositions in mediterranea so females mobility? Only the Zenetes show a very spanned panel of X chro., some of them completely included among farthest Yoruba, what seem confirming their auDNA tendancy to heterogeneity and permanent crossings concerning females for the most.

MOESAN
12-08-16, 01:16
It's true that GENETIKER gives something like 18-20% of his 'yoruba' among Mozabites, from 12 to 25% (proxi) at the individual level. I forgot the Dodecad %s.