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Angela
05-08-16, 03:41
Yes! Now it's filling in more.

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)30850-8

Kilinc et al:

"The Demographic Development of the First Farmers in Anatolia"

"Highlights




•Pre-pottery farmers had low genetic diversity, akin to Mesolithic hunter-gatherers

•Genetic diversity levels are higher in the subsequent Pottery Neolithic

•Central Anatolian farmers belonged to the same gene pool as early European farmers

•Copper Age genetic affinities suggest a second wave of Anatolian gene flow


Summary

The archaeological documentation of the development of sedentary farming societies in Anatolia is not yet mirrored by a genetic understanding of the human populations involved, in contrast to the spread of farming in Europe [ 1–3 ]. Sedentary farming communities emerged in parts of the Fertile Crescent during the tenth millennium and early ninth millennium calibrated (cal) BC and had appeared in central Anatolia by 8300 cal BC [ 4 ]. Farming spread into west Anatolia by the early seventh millennium cal BC and quasi-synchronously into Europe, although the timing and process of this movement remain unclear. Using genome sequence data that we generated nine central from nine CentralAnatolian Neolithic individuals, we studied the transition period from early Aceramic (Pre-Pottery) to the later Pottery Neolithic, when farming expanded west of the Fertile Crescent. We find that genetic diversity in the earliest farmers was conspicuously low, on a par with European foraging groups. With the advent of the Pottery Neolithic, genetic variation within societies reached levels later found in early European farmers. Our results confirm that the earliest Neolithic central Anatolians belonged to the same gene pool as the first Neolithic migrants spreading into Europe. Further, genetic affinities between later Anatolian farmers and fourth to third millennium BC Chalcolithic south Europeans suggest an additional wave of Anatolian migrants, after the initial Neolithic spread but before the Yamnaya-related migrations. We propose that the earliest farming societies demographically resembled foragers and that only after regional gene flow and rising heterogeneity did the farming population expansions into Europe occur."

Spread into west Anatolia from central Anatolia, or from the Levant? As for the last highlighted sentence, I've been saying that for years. Let's see now if they prove it.

The PCA with both modern and ancient samples is very interesting indeed. You really should enlarge it and study it:
http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2062474746/2064493945/gr2_lrg.jpg

Just some initial reactions:

Yamnaya and Afanasievo overlap. No modern population clusters close to them, although the Mordovians are perhaps the closest.

Corded Ware and Andronovo overlap and are close to Karsdorf. The closest populations to them are the Croatians and the Bulgarians. Sintashta, Bell Beaker and Eperstadt are not far away. The closest to Bell Beaker, Eperstadt and Sintashta are again the Croatians and the Bulgarians. Even closer perhaps. They can't be unchanged since that time, right? There were movements into the Balkans from Slavic speaking areas, after all, or was that input smaller than we've been assuming, or from a place closer to the Balkans? That, or do you believe in coincidence?

Corded Ware overlaps with Rathlin and isn't too far from Bell Beaker. Rathlin is really not too close to the English samples at all, and Corded Ware isn't close to Estonians, Lithuanians, Belorussians at all; it's much closer, again, to the Balkan populations and Hungary.

The Bedouins and Saudis are pulled very far south, and the Jordanians and Palestinians as well. That has to be African gene flow, yes? It also must have started by the Bronze Age, because although the Bronze Age Levantine sample isn't there, from other papers we know it plotted among Saudis.

Of course, after going through all this it's as well to remember there may be some projection bias, and a PCA is only a very small part of total variation.

The rest will have to wait until tomorrow. I'm too tired.

Fire Haired14
05-08-16, 04:40
It is important to note, the oldest new Anatolian Neolithic genomes are about as old as the recently sequenced Levant Neolithic genomes. I don't take that new PCA serisouly. Mordovians have a large amount of Siberian ancestry and therefore their position on that PCA can't be taken very seriously. Results I've seen suggest they're more similar to Northern Europeans than to Andronovo. They have an extra load of EEF/WHG that Andronovo did not have. Could be Slavic ancestry. Point is there are few populations in Russia with abnormally high amounts of Steppe ancestry for Northern Europe.

Kristiina
05-08-16, 11:25
Fire Haired, do you really think that a difference of 2-3% is important on a PC map?
Erzya ENA percentage is c. 4-8%. Kostroma Russians' ENA percentage is c. 5% and Tver Russians' ENA percentage is c. 2-4%.
Erzya WHG extra is c. 2-7% and Russian WHG extra is c. 4-6%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fKE6hbeXUWYEUZIBiU8QKIktHmNNC5NE4wJk3NsTuyY/edit#gid=1448840466
http://eurogenes.blogspot.be/2015/03/yamnaya-related-ancestry-proportions-in.html

In the admixture analysis of this new paper Mordovians and Russians have a similar amount of ENA.

Milan
05-08-16, 13:16
So if i understand correct according to some of their most likely hypothesis,the Remedello were Anatolian migrants around 4000 B.C into northern Italy so the DNA found at Remedello Y DNA "I2a1 ,Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26),Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26) represent expansion from Anatolia?
Interesting.

bicicleur
05-08-16, 14:04
it's a pitty we don't find the Natufians, the Levant Neolithic and the Iran HG and neolithic on the PCA chart

bicicleur
05-08-16, 14:44
Kumtepe is not older than 6800 years and it is the oldest settlement in the area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe





Turkey
Kumtepe [Kum6]


6,700 BP




H2a
Omrak 2016 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Omrak2016)




copper melting in Vinca culture started about 7.500 years ago

maybe Kumtepe was the result of backmigration from the Balkans and admixture with local NW Anatolians

also note, chalcolithic Europa has a lot of mtDNA H, just like Kumtepe 6

what is the exact location of Kum6 on the PCA anyway? north or southwest of Barcin?

we need Vinca genomes, they may be common ancestors to Remedello and Kumtepe and to a lot more European chalcolithic

bicicleur
05-08-16, 15:38
what is the age of each of the individual samples here?

Angela
05-08-16, 16:20
So if i understand correct according to some of their most likely hypothesis,the Remedello were Anatolian migrants around 4000 B.C into northern Italy so the DNA found at Remedello Y DNA "I2a1 ,Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26),Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26) represent expansion from Anatolia?
Interesting.

I'll have to check the exact language, but I think their point is that there were two Neolithic waves into Europe from Anatolia, and the later one may have impacted Remedello and Otzi more than the other areas, but that wouldn't necessarily mean total displacement.

Whatever happened, it probably affected Greece and the Balkans as well, and perhaps first.

We don't have the yDna for these samples yet. I hope we get them.

bicicleur
05-08-16, 17:02
I'll have to check the exact language, but I think their point is that there were two Neolithic waves into Europe from Anatolia, and the later one may have impacted Remedello and Otzi more than the other areas, but that wouldn't necessarily mean total displacement.

Whatever happened, it probably affected Greece and the Balkans as well, and perhaps first.

that is why I mentioned Vinca above in my post n° 6


We don't have the yDna for these samples yet. I hope we get them.

I hope we'll get them from Genetiker or someone else the first few days

Angela
05-08-16, 20:39
Kumtepe is not older than 6800 years and it is the oldest settlement in the area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe





Turkey
Kumtepe [Kum6]


6,700 BP




H2a
Omrak 2016 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Omrak2016)




copper melting in Vinca culture started about 7.500 years ago

maybe Kumtepe was the result of backmigration from the Balkans and admixture with local NW Anatolians

also note, chalcolithic Europa has a lot of mtDNA H, just like Kumtepe 6

what is the exact location of Kum6 on the PCA anyway? north or southwest of Barcin?

we need Vinca genomes, they may be common ancestors to Remedello and Kumtepe and to a lot more European chalcolithic

The Kumtepe 6 sample is supposed to be a black inverted triangle filled with green, right? I can't see anything like that on the PCA. There's a black with blue grey, but not black with green inside. If the rose circle is Kumtepe 6, it looks to me as if Kumtepe is slightly southeast or bordering on the main Barcin cluster.

The Buncuklu "forager" into pre-pottery Neolithic sample is north of both of them. I think what the authors are proposing and what makes sense to me is that as time passed there was genetic flow from slightly more "southern" and then more "eastern" groups. It didn't wait until the Chalcolithic, as I said; it wouldn't have made sense. There was increasing population size and more and more exchange of technology.

We'd need some more Balkan samples to clarify all this, but I think what might have happened is that after the initial early Neolithic movement, there was another one at the early to middle Late Neolithic transition and then perhaps again at the mid-to-late Neolithic transition, so not from Vinca, but rather into Vinca.

I know I've sounded like a broken record about it but I do think this may be some proof of these subsequent gene flows. Remember that paper on the Greek ancient dna which found the biggest genetic change actually occurred during the early-to-Middle Neolithic, although some in the Chalcolithic as well?

This would have mainly affected the Balkans/Greece, the Adriatic generally, Italy, but I think some of it might have also moved by sea to Spain.

I also think that the "EEF" like genetic material that went into the Central European MN and moved east into the steppe might have had a lot of these later migrations in it.

This rather whacks some of the dogma as preached by certain internet bloggers. Too bad, so sad. :)

It's also interesting that the Bonkuklu "forager" samples have more WHG. Perhaps that suggestin in the Reich Lab paper that the Villabruna cluster moved from West Asia into Europe was correct after all. So much for all that hysterical drama. The moral of the story is don't bet against the conclusions of this Lab.

MarkoZ
05-08-16, 21:20
Thank you for posting.

At a cursory glance, one of the most striking things about the PCA for me is that the Swedish Hunter Gatherers plot almost within modern Northern European diversity, with the most isolated Scandinavians (Icelanders) being the closest.

bicicleur
05-08-16, 21:48
We'd need some more Balkan samples to clarify all this, but I think what might have happened is that after the initial early Neolithic movement, there was another one at the early to middle Late Neolithic transition and then perhaps again at the mid-to-late Neolithic transition, so not from Vinca, but rather into Vinca.

I meaned from Tepcik-Ciftlik into Vinca and then from Vinca into both Kumtepe and Remedello




I know I've sounded like a broken record about it but I do think this may be some proof of these subsequent gene flows. Remember that paper on the Greek ancient dna which found the biggest genetic change actually occurred during the early-to-Middle Neolithic, although some in the Chalcolithic as well?

This would have mainly affected the Balkans/Greece, the Adriatic generally, Italy, but I think some of it might have also moved by sea to Spain.

I also think that the "EEF" like genetic material that went into the Central European MN and moved east into the steppe might have had a lot of these later migrations in it.

This rather whacks some of the dogma as preached by certain internet bloggers. Too bad, so sad. :)

I think LBK (EEF) was not influenced by the 2nd wave from Anatolia because the LBK genomes are very similar to the NW Anatolia genomes (Barcin and Mentese)
The second wave would have been the one coming from Tepcik-Ciftlik-like genomes. This second wave arrived into the Balkans after LBK and carded/impressed ware people had allready left the Balkans.




It's also interesting that the Bonkuklu "forager" samples have more WHG. Perhaps that suggestin in the Reich Lab paper that the Villabruna cluster moved from West Asia into Europe was correct after all. So much for all that hysterical drama. The moral of the story is don't bet against the conclusions of this Lab.

Yes, more and more I think Villabruna came from southern/southwestern Anatolia.

PS : the Kumtepe 6 , I still haven't found it on the PCA

arvistro
05-08-16, 22:41
PCA map seems rather strange. It looks as if ancients are pulled closer than usual. Never seen EHGs claster so close to Russians/Finns. As if they are same population. SHG too. Lithuanians appear as having no farmer genetics at all, being in the middle of EHG and SHG.
I think it has to do with ancient/modern projection bias. The ancients should be "zoomed" (meaning spread out more).

Garrick
05-08-16, 23:14
Excellent thread, mostly Turkish researchers from Ankara and Istanbul.
...



Corded Ware and Andronovo overlap and are close to Karsdorf. The closest populations to them are the Croatians and the Bulgarians. Sintashta, Bell Beaker and Eperstadt are not far away. The closest to Bell Beaker, Eperstadt and Sintashta are again the Croatians and the Bulgarians. Even closer perhaps. They can't be unchanged since that time, right? There were movements into the Balkans from Slavic speaking areas, after all, or was that input smaller than we've been assuming, or from a place closer to the Balkans? That, or do you believe in coincidence?


It is not likely to be coincidence.

But too bad, not included Romanians, Serbs, Bosniacs and Macedonians, but probably somewhere similar Bulgarians and Croats.



We'd need some more Balkan samples to clarify all this,

Yes, especially from Vinca.



but I think what might have happened is that after the initial early Neolithic movement, there was another one at the early to middle Late Neolithic transition and then perhaps again at the mid-to-late Neolithic transition.


Probably. First and second main flow are from Anatolia to Balkans.

Some supporters of opposing idea in Internet argued that main flows were from Balkans to Anatolia but it is almost incredible, but secondary flows probably existed.



I also think that the "EEF" like genetic material that went into the Central European MN and moved east into the steppe might have had a lot of these later migrations in it.

This rather whacks some of the dogma as preached by certain internet bloggers. Too bad, so sad. :)

Or vice versa, the part of genetic material could came in steppe across Caucasus.

Some Internet bloggers especially when there was much less information developed own ideas, unfortunately with new results something was unsustainable.



Perhaps that suggestin in the Reich Lab paper that the Villabruna cluster moved from West Asia into Europe was correct after all.

It can be possible.

Alan
05-08-16, 23:38
Yes! Now it's filling in more.

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)30850-8

"Highlights




•Central Anatolian farmers belonged to the same gene pool as early European farmers





I told so. There were hints in early papers that the Central Anatolian farmers were almost identical to these Barcin farmer from NW Anatolia.

Alan
05-08-16, 23:46
So if i understand correct according to some of their most likely hypothesis,the Remedello were Anatolian migrants around 4000 B.C into northern Italy so the DNA found at Remedello Y DNA "I2a1 ,Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26),Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26) represent expansion from Anatolia?
Interesting.


But that was so obvious, since basically all Farmers ANatolian/EEF had Haplogroup I among them. It is not unlikely that allot of the I today in Europe is actually of Farmer ancestry.

Alan
05-08-16, 23:50
The Kumtepe 6 sample is supposed to be a black inverted triangle filled with green, right? I can't see anything like that on the PCA. There's a black with blue grey, but not black with green inside. If the rose circle is Kumtepe 6, it looks to me as if Kumtepe is slightly southeast or bordering on the main Barcin cluster.

The Buncuklu "forager" into pre-pottery Neolithic sample is north of both of them. I think what the authors are proposing and what makes sense to me is that as time passed there was genetic flow from slightly more "southern" and then more "eastern" groups. It didn't wait until the Chalcolithic, as I said; it wouldn't have made sense. There was increasing population size and more and more exchange of technology.

We'd need some more Balkan samples to clarify all this, but I think what might have happened is that after the initial early Neolithic movement, there was another one at the early to middle Late Neolithic transition and then perhaps again at the mid-to-late Neolithic transition, so not from Vinca, but rather into Vinca.

I know I've sounded like a broken record about it but I do think this may be some proof of these subsequent gene flows. Remember that paper on the Greek ancient dna which found the biggest genetic change actually occurred during the early-to-Middle Neolithic, although some in the Chalcolithic as well?

This would have mainly affected the Balkans/Greece, the Adriatic generally, Italy, but I think some of it might have also moved by sea to Spain.

I also think that the "EEF" like genetic material that went into the Central European MN and moved east into the steppe might have had a lot of these later migrations in it.



What I think and what I was proposing allot of times is that the region from Anatolia to the northern parts of the Iranian Plateau were populated by a WHG (Anatolia) and ANE (Iranian Plateau) like people. Until a third population (Basal Eurasian) moved up from the Iranian South coast or Arabia and merged with the other two creating the Anatolian farmers in the West and Iranian Farmers in the East.


This rather whacks some of the dogma as preached by certain internet bloggers. Too bad, so sad. :)

It's also interesting that the Bonkuklu "forager" samples have more WHG. Perhaps that suggestin in the Reich Lab paper that the Villabruna cluster moved from West Asia into Europe was correct after all. So much for all that hysterical drama. The moral of the story is don't bet against the conclusions of this Lab.

"too bad" yes, but don't worry they will again somehow find a way to explain all of this the way they like it and their preachers won't be far away to spred their word.

Alan
06-08-16, 00:03
About the connection between Kumtepe and Ötzi, well Kurd was the first one who saw this connection to the exclusion of other Farmers and did propose the second wave of Farmers. And this is where his "CHG_EEF" component idea comes from.

Garrick
06-08-16, 00:13
So if i understand correct according to some of their most likely hypothesis,the Remedello were Anatolian migrants around 4000 B.C into northern Italy so the DNA found at Remedello Y DNA "I2a1 ,Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26),Y DNA I2a1a1a-L672(subclade of M26) represent expansion from Anatolia?
Interesting.

Yes.

And it is important that researchers analyze samples in one of largest prehistoric Neolithic settlement in Europe, in village of Vinca, in Serbia.

Fire Haired14
06-08-16, 00:45
Fire Haired, do you really think that a difference of 2-3% is important on a PC map?
Erzya ENA percentage is c. 4-8%. Kostroma Russians' ENA percentage is c. 5% and Tver Russians' ENA percentage is c. 2-4%.
Erzya WHG extra is c. 2-7% and Russian WHG extra is c. 4-6%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fKE6hbeXUWYEUZIBiU8QKIktHmNNC5NE4wJk3NsTuyY/edit#gid=1448840466
http://eurogenes.blogspot.be/2015/03/yamnaya-related-ancestry-proportions-in.html

In the admixture analysis of this new paper Mordovians and Russians have a similar amount of ENA.

The PCA has projection bias. We can't trust anything it shows anyways.

MarkoZ
06-08-16, 01:27
The PCA has projection bias. We can't trust anything it shows anyways.

If by "projection bias" (according to google this appears to be a term form behavioural psychology?) you mean the PCA is skewed due to disparate sample sizes, there's no reliable method to correct for this afaik. It's disingenuous to say that it cannot be trusted at all.

Angela
06-08-16, 02:16
There's always such terrible projection bias in a PCA that it can't be trusted whenever it doesn't support someone's prior pronouncements, and especially when it doesn't jive with that person's mythos about his "nation's" origins.

That isn't to say that a PCA is the last word: there is some projection bias, and all genetic variation isn't reflected in it.

The thing to do is to check the results with those from other tools.

Milan
06-08-16, 09:29
But that was so obvious, since basically all Farmers ANatolian/EEF had Haplogroup I among them. It is not unlikely that allot of the I today in Europe is actually of Farmer ancestry.
Well according to the haplogroup distribution i had similar clues,it hint to me that played some role in expansion of farming for example given the distribution,first or second wave doesn't matter,otherwise can not spread that much in my opinion, but i was reading a lot of different things about it.

bicicleur
06-08-16, 09:41
I also think that the "EEF" like genetic material that went into the Central European MN and moved east into the steppe might have had a lot of these later migrations in it.





I think LBK (EEF) was not influenced by the 2nd wave from Anatolia because the LBK genomes are very similar to the NW Anatolia genomes (Barcin and Mentese)
The second wave would have been the one coming from Tepcik-Ciftlik-like genomes. This second wave arrived into the Balkans after LBK and carded/impressed ware people had allready left the Balkans.


I think the 2nd wave influenced Vinca, Cucuteni-Tripolye, Hamangia, Boian and Gumelnita cultures.
So, steppe people were also affected by the second wave.

I think this may be the earliest arrival of 2nd wave into the Balkans : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dude%C8%99ti_culture
They were herders in Wallachia (lower Danube)

Hauteville
06-08-16, 11:14
https://s32.postimg.org/o9jnxjiqt/gr2_lrg.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/wf1pvp6zl/)

MOESAN
06-08-16, 18:14
But that was so obvious, since basically all Farmers ANatolian/EEF had Haplogroup I among them. It is not unlikely that allot of the I today in Europe is actually of Farmer ancestry.

Concerning Y-I2a1 I would call for more caution. We have to wait for more proofs. Not impossible but not already proved. I'm not against the thought some Y-I2a1a came from South but we have to find which South they came from. Concerning Y-I2a1b I doubt I a little... The same for Y-I2a1.

MOESAN
06-08-16, 18:15
I want to say the same for Y-I2a2

Angela
06-08-16, 22:40
I think the 2nd wave influenced Vinca, Cucuteni-Tripolye, Hamangia, Boian and Gumelnita cultures.
So, steppe people were also affected by the second wave.

I think this may be the earliest arrival of 2nd wave into the Balkans : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dude%C8%99ti_culture
They were herders in Wallachia (lower Danube)

I think they were influenced by a different wave, a later wave, but was that different wave Tepecik or was it Barcin or Kumtepe like? Or were there three slightly different waves? I don't know. Does the archaeology help?

I can't find specific dates for each sample. I wish they'd provided that. So, basically, all we know is:

Boncuklu: 8300-7500 BC. Central Anatolia-Forager-elementary farming and some experimentation with pig domestication.

Tepecik:7500-5800 BC-Central Anatolia- Mixed and complex plant and animal exploitation practices (hunting and gathering, cereal agriculture and domesticated animals...significant interaction with communities further east at the headwaters of the Tigris, perhaps having to do with obsidian.

Barcin: 6400 BC Pottery Neolithic in NW, not Central Anatolia.

Kumtepe: 5700 BC Copper Age NW Anatolia

Did you take a look at the Admixture Chart?
http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2062474746/2064493946/gr3_lrg.jpg

I think it's important to note that the Boncuklu and Tepecik analysis is based on both whole genome and shotgun sequencing analysis. Was that always the case in all the papers in the past? Did they use the same set of samples for the modern populations? Could some of the discrepancies be accounted for by that fact?

It looks as if they're saying that over time the "WHG like" percentage of the Boncuklu samples dropped a bit. Given the archaeology that I'll reference below, I think it's pretty clear that with the Pottery Neolithic there was migration from elsewhere, probably from the Tigris Euphrates area but perhaps also from the Levant which changed them slightly. By the time of Tepecik Central Anatolia was definitely less WHG.

The EN samples seem to have quite a bit of variation. North-West Anatolian Pottery Neolithic Barcin is sort of in-between Boncuklu and Tepecik, and Kumtepe and Mentese, also further north, are sort of back up to the Boncuklu levels. What were the people who took off for Europe like? We know that there was a migration, pre-pottery Neolithic, from the coastal northern Levant where Syria meets Anatolia and which went to Cyprus among other places. We don't have samples from there. Does anyone know if there are even any available from that place and time? One might think they would have been more like Boncuklu, but they're also pretty close to where we might find Levant Neolithic. As for the movement of Pottery Neolithic like people out of the Near East, were they more Tepecik like or Barcin like? From what I remember of the archaeology there's very little to show any interactions between Barcin and the Balkans, for example. So, perhaps they were Tepecik like, but I don't know. I used to have the dates for the various early pre-pottery and pottery Neolithic settlements clear in my mind, but now I'd have to look them up. If anyone has a handle on it, please post.

The FST charts are interesting too. Look at where both Boncuklu and Tepecik have the strongest correlation. It's certainly not the Near East. Also, I just noticed that for all the talk about how Levantine the Cypriots are, by this measure they are a lot more European than Levantine. Obviously, of course, this is just part of their genetic variation.

7903

7904

Kumtepe is a whole other issue. The authors don't say, but is this Kumtepe 6? The authors do definitely see a closer correlation between Otzi/Remedello and Kumtepe, but can we tell from the analysis whether there was an actual movement of Kumtepe like people into southeastern Europe, or could it be that Boncuklu, Tepecik and some WHG picked up in Europe "looks like" Copper Age Kumtepe. On the other hand, there we have Otzi and Remedello with copper implements and other "hallmarks" of supposedly "Indo-European" culture, and yet no sign of "steppe" admixture at all, or so minor that it could be noise. So, could all of that have come from Northwestern Anatolia? Certainly, this paper underscores that, as Dienekes showed years ago, and as I've continued to say, Otzi has some CHG, which other MN samples do not.

Anyway, the paper has some nice data on the archaeology, which hints at the source of the minor changes in the genetics.

Farming came late to Anatolia: "The Epipalaeolithic of the plateau and its coastal fringes is poorly documented [S23]. However, one site on the plateau has been excavated at Pınarbaşı in the Konya Plain, where unlike the partially contemporary Levantine Early Natufian, there is no evidence of sedentary practices or intensive plant exploitation [S24]. The earliest sedentarising communities on the plateau appear in the 10th-9th millennia cal BC and are represented also by occupation at Pınarbaşı which lacks evidence of cultivation or herding [S25]."

The "Basal Eurasian" must have arrived before the Pre-Pottery Neolithic: "The Pre-Pottery Neolithic period (PPN) of the plateau is better understood. Among the human groups and cultures of the Konya Plain there are indications of highly diverse but indigenous communities during this phase of uptake of sedentism, of cultivation and of herding."

"There is thus substantial evidence for interactions between central Anatolia, the south coast of Turkey, the Levant and areas south-east of the Taurus from the Epipalaeolithic into the Pottery Neolithic [S32]."

"A diversity of cultures can be described in the Anatolian plateau during the subsequent Pottery Neolithic, considered to span from c.7000 to c.6000 cal BC. In Çatalhöyük in the Konya Plain [S34,35] we find rectilinear closely packed house clusters as at 8th millennium Aşıklı Höyük, and domestic organization that resembles 9th- 8th millennium Boncuklu. In contrast, Tepecik-Çiftlik and Köşk Höyük in Volcanic Cappadocia have independent houses and open areas, pointing to cultural differences with the Konya plain...Recent work has detected many new settlements in the Volcanic Cappadocia region; these are thought to be related to migrating individuals and small groups, possibly moving over quite significant distances, attracted by the local obsidian sources."

Arame
08-08-16, 06:29
Genetiker: Y-SNP calls from Neolithic central Asia Minor
Sample Period Date BC Haplogroup
Bon004 Pre-Pottery Neolithic > 8300 G2a2b2b-F705 calls
Bon001 Pre-Pottery Neolithic 8212–7952 G2a2b2b1a-PF3422 calls
Tep001 Pottery Neolithic 7500–5800 G, J2, or R1b calls
Tep006 Pottery Neolithic 7500–5800 C1a2-Y10446 calls
Tep003 Pottery Neolithic 7500–5800 G2a2a-PF3159* calls

bicicleur
08-08-16, 08:48
after Genetiker Y-calls :

3 x G2a2 + 1 x C1a2

finally G2a2 like NW Anatolia & Europe neolithic
no G2a2 was found in Levant or Iran HG & neolithic
this G2a2 in Central Anatolia was a seperate tribe, the forfathers of Europe neolithic
they were trading obsidian from Capadocia with the proto-Natufians in the Levant since 16 ka

http://www.archatlas.org/ObsidianRoutes/ObsidianRoutes.php
http://www.archatlas.org/ObsidianRoutes/Slide1.jpg


AFAIK this is the first neolithic settlement in the area, ca 10,8 ka

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C5%9F%C4%B1kl%C4%B1_H%C3%B6y%C3%BCk

it is very similar to the later Catal Huyuk area
there are indications of early metallurgy in Catal Huyuk, but that is uncertain

there is this study re origins of NW Anatolina neolithic

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099845
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=inline&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0099845.g001

well, I think this study is wrong, now that I see the new genetic evidence

as for early European neolithic :

there is an early wave 8.8-9 ka to aceramic Sesklo and Crete about which very little is known

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesklo

the 1st big wave was 8.4 ka to Thesally and to Corfu (carded/impressed ware)
it looks like the 8.4 ka wave to Thesally had the same origin as Barcin/Mentese, and that this was the origing of later Starcevo and LBK
Corfu 8.4 ka was carded/impressed ware









Turkey
Boncuklu [Bon004] PPN
M
6500-6200 BC
G2a2b2b – F705


N1a1a1
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)30850-8




Turkey
Boncuklu [Bon002] PPN
F






K1a
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)30850-8




Turkey
Boncuklu [Bon005] PPN
F






N1a1a1
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)30850-8




Turkey
Boncuklu [Bon001] PPN
M
8212 – 7952 BC
G2a2b2b1a – PF3422


U3
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)30850-8















Turkey
Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep001] Pottery Neolithic
M
7500-5800 BC
G, J2 or R1b


K1a
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)30850-8




Turkey
Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep006] Pottery Neolithic
M
7500-5800 BC
C1a2 – Y10446


N1a1a1
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)30850-8




Turkey
Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep003] Pottery Neolithic
M
7500-5800 BC
G2a2a – PF3159*


N1b1a
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)30850-8




Turkey
Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep002] Pottery Neolithic
F






K1a12a
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)30850-8




Turkey
Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep004] Pottery Neolithic
F






N1a1a1
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)30850-8


























Turkey
Barcın [I0707/BAR2 / L11-213]
F
6500-6200 BC




K1a4
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I0708/BAR6 / L11-439]
M
6500-6200 BC
J2a
M410, L559, L212; J2a-M410 > PF4610 > Z6049 > Z6048(xS20392)
N1b1a
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015); Additional info on Y-DNA SNPs from Chris Rоttеnѕtеіnеr




Turkey
Barcın [I0709/BAR20 / M13-170]
M
6500-6200 BC
H2
L281, P96, L284, L285, L286
U3
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I0736/L11-216]
F
6500-6200 BC




N1a1a1a
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I0744/M10-275]
M
6500-6200 BC
G2a2b2a
Z3077, CTS688, PF3329, CTS4454, CTS10366, P303, Z3243, PF3342, Z3481, PF3343
J1c11
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I0745/M11-363]
M
6500-6200 BC
H2
L281, P96, L284, L285, L286
U8b1b1
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I0746/L11-322]
M
6500-6200 BC
G2a2b2a1c
CTS342
K1a or K1a1
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I1096/BAR26/M10-76]
M
6500-6200 BC
I2c
L596, L597
N1a1a1
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I1097/BAR271 / M10-271]
M
6500-6200 BC
G2a2b2a
Z3077, CTS946, PF3329, CTS4454, CTS10366, Z3243, PF3342, Z3481
W1-T119C
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I1098/BAR99 / M10-352]
F
6500-6200 BC




X2d2
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I1099/L11-S-488]
M
6500-6200 BC
G2a2a1b
L91
T2b
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I1100/M11-351]
F
6500-6200 BC




K1a or K1a6
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I1101/M11-352a]
M
6500-6200 BC




T2b
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I1102/M11-354]
M
6500-6200 BC
C1a2
V20
K1a3a
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I1103/M11-S-350]
M
6500-6200 BC
G2a2a1b1
PF3247
K1b1b1
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I1579/M13-72]
F
6500-6200 BC




K1a-C150T
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I1580/L12-393]
F
6500-6200 BC




H5
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I1581/L12-502]
F
6500-6200 BC




U3
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I1583/L14-200]
M
6500-6200 BC
G2a2a1b
L91
K1a2
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I1585/M11-59]
F
6500-6200 BC




J1 or J1c
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [I0854/L11-215]
F
6500-6200 BC




N1a1a1a
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)


Fikirtepe
Turkey
Menteşe [I0723/T1, M229 / UH]
M
6400-500 BC
G2a2a
PF3165, PF3166, PF3175, PF3184
X2m2
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)


Fikirtepe
Turkey
Menteşe [I0724/T2 / UP]
M
6400-500 BC
I
CTS6231
K1a4
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)


Fikirtepe
Turkey
Menteşe [I0726/M15, M15.2, M15.2 / UF]
F
6400-500 BC




H or H5-C16192T
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)


Fikirtepe
Turkey
Menteşe [I0727/M24 / UA JK 16]
M
6400-500 BC
G
CTS11294
K1a2
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)


Fikirtepe
Turkey
Menteşe [I0725/T4 / SSK15]
F
6400-500 BC




N1a1a1a
Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)




Turkey
Barcın [Bar31]
M
6419–6238 BC
G2a2b > genetiker G2a2b-L30*


X2m
Hofmanová 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hofmanova2015)




Turkey
Barcın [Bar8]
F
6212–6030 BC




K1a2
Hofmanová 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hofmanova2015)















Turkey
Kumtepe [Kum6]


6,700 BP




H2a
Omrak 2016 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Omrak2016)


Chalcolithic
Turkey
Barcın Höyük [I1584 / M10-111]
F
3943-3708 calBCE (5016±31 BP)




K1a17
Lazaridis 2016 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lazaridis2016)




Kumtepe was founded only 6.8 ka, it has nothing to do with neolithic Barcin/Mentese

We need Vinca genomes.

Cato
08-08-16, 16:40
Further, genetic affinities between later Anatolian farmers and fourth to third millennium BC Chalcolithic south Europeans suggest an additional wave of Anatolian migrants, after the initial Neolithic spread but before the Yamnaya-related migrations.



In Italy this is confirmed by archaeology. Copper age italian cultures before the bell beaker had strong anatolian influences: laterza, gaudo, rinaldone etc.

Angela
08-08-16, 18:14
@Bicicleur,

Could you explain your thinking about this in more detail?


Bicicleur:http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0099845 (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099845)
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0099845.g001 (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=inline&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0099845.g001)

well, I think this study is wrong, now that I see the new genetic evidence


That early wave went to Cyprus as well as to Sesklo and Crete, yes?


I wish we had the yDna from the Turkey Chalcolithic.


Also, in case someone hasn't seen it...

"Gedmatch IDs:

M311970 Bon002 Boncuklu, Central Anatolia 8279-7977 calBCE (10289-9987 BP)

M380264 Rev5 Revenia, Central Greece 6438–6264 BCE (8448-8274 BP)
M072869 Bar31 Barcin, Northwest Anatolia 6419-6238 BCE (8429-8248 ybp)
M822045 Klei10 Kleitos, Central Greece 4230–3995 BCE (6240-6005 ybp)

M197341 WC1 Wezmeh Cave, Central Zagros Iran 7455-7082 BCE (9465-9092 ybp)

Bon002 had an unexpected eye color:
Bon002 M311970 eye color prediction (http://www.open-genomes.org/genomes/Kilinc%20(2016)/Bon002/Bon002%20M311970%20eye%20color.jpg)

Try comparing the IBD of Bon004 at 100 SNPs and 1 cM with the others, and especially with:
M677694 Satsurblia
M603839 Kotias
M115616 I0867 Levantine PPNB
F999937 NE1 Starcevo
F999916 Stuttgart LBK"

I wouldn't take some of these calculator results as gospel, particularly the ones from Eurogenes that are always going to show inflated eastern and sometimes northern European.

bicicleur
08-08-16, 19:23
@Bicicleur,

Could you explain your thinking about this in more detail?



Although domestic sheep and goats appear first in central Turkey by the mid eighth millennium cal BC, domestic cattle appear a millennium later and domestic pigs are never incorporated into Neolithic economies in this region [76] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099845#pone.0099845-Arbuckle8). The combination of domestic caprines, cattle and pigs occurs for the first time in Turkey, outside of the SE, in the early seventh millennium cal BC, where all four livestock species are evident in the Izmir region at Ulucak VI and then slightly later in SW Turkey at Bademağacı ENI, and in southern Turkey at Yumuktepe [102] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099845#pone.0099845-Buitenhuis2) (Fig. 1 (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099845#pone-0099845-g001)). Since a completely autochthonous domestication event in western Turkey is unlikely, this pattern suggests a rapid westward movement of domestic animals across southern Turkey [4] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099845#pone.0099845-ilingirolu1). The geography and timing of this early expansion suggest it may have followed a coastal route, either by land or by sea [20] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099845#pone.0099845-Vigne2), although the initial phases of this process in southern Turkey are currently poorly documented [40] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099845#pone.0099845-ilingirolu3),[103] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099845#pone.0099845-Ottoni1). However, the absence of domestic cattle and pigs in central Turkey at this time suggests that this region was not directly involved in the earliest spread of domestic livestock either to the Lakes region or western Turkey and reaffirms the distinctive nature of the Central Anatolian Neolithic tradition [104] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099845#pone.0099845-Schoop1)–[106] (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099845#pone.0099845-Grard1).

Barcin and Mentese Y-DNA dated 6500-6200 BC are in majority G2a2.
G2a2 are nowhere found in meso- or neolithic SW Asia except in this study about central Anatolia (3 out of 4 are G2a2 and 1 is C1a2 which is found in Barcin too).

bicicleur
08-08-16, 19:27
That early wave went to Cyprus as well as to Sesklo and Crete, yes?



Cyprus was earlier, allready 10.8 ka

oldest Sesklo dating is not so clear, but 9-8.8 ka seems quite likely
in Crete, neolithic layers underneath Knosos have been dated to +/- 9-8.8 ka

Angela
09-08-16, 02:25
I saw this posted elsewhere:

" Bon002 is a very important result, because she lived at 8279-7977 calBCE looks just like a Starcevo or LBK farmer (what became of the Cardial people in Gedmatch?) but actually lived right near Çatalhöyük which existed from approximately 7500 BCE to 5700 BCE, and flourished around 7000 BCE. That's 500-700 years BEFORE Çatalhöyük.

Çatalhöyük - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk)

Why would someone from South Central Anatolia from c. 8,100 BCE look almost the same as someone from Stuttgart Germany 5,100 BCE, 3,000 years later? And complete with a substantial portion of WHG admixture?

It's as if the "admixed" Early European Farmers were already admixed with "European" WHGs when they first started farming in Anatolia."


Haven't we been saying this for about a year? Boncuklu got slightly less WHG over time. If the major wave that went to Greece was Barcin like, then they might have indeed picked up a little extra WHG in Europe, but they had a good amount already.

LeBrok
09-08-16, 05:39
It's as if the "admixed" Early European Farmers were already admixed with "European" WHGs when they first started farming in Anatolia."


Haven't we been saying this for about a year? Boncuklu got slightly less WHG over time. If the major wave that went to Greece was Barcin like, then they might have indeed picked up a little extra WHG in Europe, but they had a good amount already.
Exactly, we did. We suspected that WHG had refugium in Anatolia and Neolithic Farmers crossed with them there. At about 10% level, and later picked another 10% in Balkans.

I'm yet to find time to read the newest paper. Just glanced at charts and posts and everything is what we expected to see in Central Anatolia. Though perhaps not that close to the edge of Fertile Crescent.

bicicleur
09-08-16, 08:13
Exactly, we did. We suspected that WHG had refugium in Anatolia and Neolithic Farmers crossed with them there. At about 10% level, and later picked another 10% in Balkans.

I'm yet to find time to read the newest paper. Just glanced at charts and posts and everything is what we expected to see in Central Anatolia. Though perhaps not that close to the edge of Fertile Crescent.

yes, and I tought it was upto Karain and Belbasi cave area, near Antalia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belba%C5%9F%C4%B1
in these caves there are presumed Aurignacian layers upto ca 19 ka and presumed Gravettian layers upto 15 ka
it is not clear whether the Aurignacian layer is European Aurignacian or Levantine Aurignacian

what is even more amazing now is this :



Turkey
Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep006] Pottery Neolithic
M
7500-5800 BC
C1a2 – Y10446


N1a1a1
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)30850-8



Tepecik-Ciftlik is so much further east than Karain and Belbasi cave area.



Turkey
Tepecik-Ciftlik [Tep006] Pottery Neolithic
M
7500-5800 BC
C1a2 – Y10446


N1a1a1
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(16)30850-8 (http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)30850-8)

Promenade
09-08-16, 09:49
So he had the same Y-DNA as LaBrana and a paleolithic individual from the Czech Republic, very cool

Garrick
09-08-16, 12:36
Exactly, we did. We suspected that WHG had refugium in Anatolia and Neolithic Farmers crossed with them there. At about 10% level, and later picked another 10% in Balkans.


It is very important conclusion.

We will wait new scientific papers for new samples and more details.

bicicleur
09-08-16, 14:13
So he had the same Y-DNA as LaBrana and a paleolithic individual from the Czech Republic, very cool

European Aurignacians were mainly C1a2. They were a minority amongst early Gravettian, who were mainly I*. Then they reappear in La Brana and in neolithic Europe and Anatolia.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32260-The-genetic-history-of-Ice-Age-Europe
http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/FuQ_nature17993.pdf

Arame
09-08-16, 14:45
Do we have Early Neolithic sample from Italy to compare it with Otzi?

bicicleur
09-08-16, 16:24
Do we have Early Neolithic sample from Italy to compare it with Otzi?

Otzi was found on the Italian/Austrian border.
Remedello was just south of the Alps, some 100-200 km form Otzi.

Angela
09-08-16, 16:54
Remedello covered most of the Po Valley. Last I heard, that's Italy.
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/Gimbutas/GimbutasCivilizationOfTheGoddess/BC3500GimbutasMKurganFig10-13.gif
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/Gimbutas/GimbutasCivilizationOfTheGoddess/BC3500GimbutasMKurganFig10-13.gif

https://tac-prepc.wikispaces.com/file/view/44444444444444444444.jpg/194589346/44444444444444444444.jpg

This is a good discussion of Remedello:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1389-Remedello-and-similar-cultures-in-Italy

Disappointingly, for some, the Bell Beaker level is less advanced than the prior Copper Age level.

We really need more analyses of ancient dna in Italy. I know some is supposedly coming, but not, unfortunately, from the Reich Lab. One of many things I'd like to see is a comparison of Remedello and Rinaldone.

These are the daggers they're talking about:
http://www.rupestre.net/tracce/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/cropped-arco_stele_I.jpg

This is a stelae from the Lunigiana, but they're all over eastern Liguria too.

http://www.italianways.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/IW_statue-stele-lunigiane_02.jpg

Fire Haired14
10-08-16, 04:31
@Angela,

A paper is coming out this year with Bronze age DNA from all over Europe. This has been confirmed. I think we'll get it before New Years.

Arame
10-08-16, 08:51
Otzi is not Early Neolithic, neither Remedello. They are LN or Chl.