East Prussian N1c subclades

[Tomenable]

Check also East Prussian R1a:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32567-Old-Prussian-(West-Baltic)-R1a-clades?p=486090&viewfull=1#post486090

East Prussian N1c (sample size = 19 people):

Clade Z16975 / FGC13372 = 7 people:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N-Z16975/

kit 193848 Jons Maczullatis born in 1745 in Skaisgirren (Skajzgiry), hg. N-Z16975
kit E13080 Johannes Reihs born in 1800 in Bischofstein (Bisztynek), hg. N-Z16975
kit E2482 Martin Ossowski, born in 1729 in Marienburg (Malbork), hg. N-L1025, probably N-FGC13372
kit N61024 Jurgis Lunczyns born in 1715 in Mosteiten (Slawjanskoje), hg. N-L1025, probably N-FGC13372
kit 343953 Pranciškus Lukoševičius, born in Wisztyniec (Vištytis), hg. N-Z16975

Y19113 subclade (one person):

kit B42972 Johann Kuschnereit born in 1800 in Eszerischken, hg. N-Z16975; Y19113+

Y6129 subclade (one person):

kit N58382 Dargil, born ca. 1344 in Gut Dargels (Dargiele) near Migehnen (Mingajny), hg. N-Z16975; Y6129+

Clade L551 = 2 people:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N-L551/

kit E8045 Dawid Barteit, born in Kolonie Bismarck near Heydekrug, hg. N-L551
kit 202401 Jan Łozowski born in 1850 in Lötzen (Giżycko), hg. N-L551

Clade L732 = 1 person:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N-L732/

kit 217892 Johann Groening born in 1800 in Horsterbusch (Krzewiny), hg. N-L732

Undetermined L1025+ = 8 people:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N-L1025/

kit 142919 Wilhelm E. Spangehl born in 1819 in Ragnit (Neman), hg. N1c-L1025
kit E9638 August Darge born in 1870 in Bartenstein (Bartoszyce), hg. N1c-L1025
kit 179556 Michael Bannuscher born in 1729 in Schoenfeld (near Braunsberg), hg. N-L1025
kit N42695 Julius Baltrusch born in 1874 in Campinschken (near Tilsit), hg. N-L1025
kit 147092 Johann Bever born in 1800 in Ryabinowoje (now Kaliningrad Oblast), hg. N-L1025
kit 183188 Andrzej Cholewa, born in 1815 in Bełcząc (near Bialla/Gehlenburg), hg. N-L1025
kit N23762 Andrzej Romanski, born in 1758 in Łapka (Warmia, near Olsztyn), hg. N-L1025
kit 173926 Baltazar Hilinski, born in 1866 in Rakowo (near Tiegenhof), hg. N-L1025

Undetermined N1c1a+ = 1 person:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N1c1a/

kit 284236 Wannagat born in 1880 in Göritten (Puszkino) or Stallupönen (Nesterow), hg. N-M178

[Tomenable]

^^^ Surprisingly no N-CTS8173 showed up in that East Prussian sample:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-CTS8173/

http://s23.postimg.org/s45kpt4zf/CTS8173.png

Also no any N-Z17902 (BY158) showed up in that East Prussian sample:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-Z17902/

http://s15.postimg.org/boy3nh5u3/BY158.png

Unless some people with "undetermined L1025+" had these subclades.

[arvistro]

Clade Z16975 / FGC13372 = 7 people.
This is the East Prussian clade, it is rare outside East Prussia, and most common in East Prussia. At least according to those little observations that we have..

[Tomenable]

Clade Z16975 / FGC13372 = 7 people.
This is the East Prussian clade, it is rare outside East Prussia, and most common in East Prussia. At least according to those little observations that we have..

Great !!! So we have finally discovered the West Baltic branch.

I guess this is how it looks like:

https://s32.postimg.org/pswiisiet/Baltic_N1c.png

[Tomenable]

^^ BY158 looks Northern Lithuanian - see the map:

http://s15.postimg.org/boy3nh5u3/BY158.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Etnoregionai.png

[Tomenable]

http://s1.postimg.org/85nj3lv0f/0007_mapa1.png

[arvistro]

Lithuanians actually have so called "Latvian" too. To me there is nothing to contradict view that Latvians (or Latvian N) spread out of Lithuania.
Latvians have some of Lithuanian clades too, but so far in East Latvia and less.
But in general it is interesting. For example - Curonians. Are they Latvian tribe? Their children now live in Latvia, Lithuania and perhaps even East Prussia. But they most likely were West Balts, not even East Balts. Or like Yatwings, West Balts on their way of East Baltification. Ok, some even call them North Balts. But I am not sure if they had their own N. Maybe we will find that. Not East Prussian one, that is for sure.

Other thing. Since Baltic N is 600 BCE, if its branches Prussian, Latvian, Lithuanian branched off at same level; then West Baltic/East Baltic differences are not that big perhaps. One people 500 BCE. Latvians and Lithuanians being as far on Y-dna, as Latvians and Prussians or Lithuanians and Prussians...

[Tony 6whiskeys]

I'm not sure if this thread has died or moved on but it was a fascinating read. I was interested in what made Arvisto abandon his original hypothesis as it appeared to construct a storyline which did not conflict with known facts? Also, if the debate regarding NIC1 in Baltic areas has moved on I'd be grateful for a heads up as to where.

My interest is somewhat selfish as a N1C1-L550-M2783-L551-N-Y17696 male whose ancestral line traces back to the Lvov/Lviw area in the far SE.Poland/W.Ukraine region for a least 400 years. I'd be fascinated to hear peoples opinions on whether this state of affairs is most likely due to those ancestors having remained stationary while the different nation states sprang up and fluctuated around them, whether it might have been due to mass migrations in historical times or even earlier related to known events....

[Aha]

East Prussian N1c (sample size = 19 people):

Clade Z16975 / FGC13372 = 7 people:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N-Z16975/

kit 193848 Jons Maczullatis born in 1745 in Skaisgirren (Skajzgiry), hg. N-Z16975
kit E13080 Johannes Reihs born in 1800 in Bischofstein (Bisztynek), hg. N-Z16975
kit E2482 Martin Ossowski, born in 1729 in Marienburg (Malbork), hg. N-L1025, probably N-FGC13372
kit N61024 Jurgis Lunczyns born in 1715 in Mosteiten (Slawjanskoje), hg. N-L1025, probably N-FGC13372
kit 343953 Pranciškus Lukoševičius, born in Wisztyniec (Vištytis), hg. N-Z16975




So these people are my matches on both Y12 and SNP. Now I am really curious. Considering I have some autosomal matches with Lithuanians, some of whom have ancestry from East Prussia and some other people who also have east Prussian ancestry.
Thank you for the information! Very useful and informative! Do you know more about this branch? Modern distribution, ancient distribution?

[MontyK]

So these people are my matches on both Y12 and SNP. Now I am really curious. Considering I have some autosomal matches with Lithuanians, some of whom have ancestry from East Prussia and some other people who also have east Prussian ancestry.
Thank you for the information! Very useful and informative! Do you know more about this branch? Modern distribution, ancient distribution?

My half brother is N-Z16975, his paternal line comes from Lazdijai.

Have you tested with FtDNA? If you have then you can go to the SNP map and scroll down until you find FGC13372, it will then show you a distribution map. It seems pretty concentrated in South-West Lithuania, North-East Poland and Hrodzienskaja.

Also keep in mind that Y12 matches don't necessarily mean much. Your Y37 matches and higher are a lot more likely to be related to you. Some of my own 12 marker matches belong to a completely different SNP branch.

[50cal]

My half brother is N-Z16975, his paternal line comes from Lazdijai.

Have you tested with FtDNA? If you have then you can go to the SNP map and scroll down until you find FGC13372, it will then show you a distribution map. It seems pretty concentrated in South-West Lithuania, North-East Poland and Hrodzienskaja.

Also keep in mind that Y12 matches don't necessarily mean much. Your Y37 matches and higher are a lot more likely to be related to you. Some of my own 12 marker matches belong to a completely different SNP branch.
My paternal line comes from Courland/SW Latvia. No Lithuanian heritage.

As for 7 matches for a given sample size of 19, it sure seems like a far cry to call it an East Prussian branch. There's simply not enough data for that kind of an assumption.

[v_lecavalier]

Hi Aha,
Did you finally get any more info on N-Z16975?
I am in the same boat in there.
Thanks!