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Northener
08-08-16, 11:53
Dear Eupedians, somebody gave me this old picture.....please classify him, I'am curious, thanks in advance!

Northener
11-08-16, 12:57
The man stays a mystery for the Eupedians?[emoji102][emoji6]


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Maleth
11-08-16, 17:43
Southern/central Balkan / Southern Italian?

Northener
11-08-16, 17:49
Southern/central Balkan / Southern Italian?
Thank you Maleth! Why do you think this is the case?
What do you think "italian specialist" Angela?

Maleth
11-08-16, 18:02
Thank you Maleth! Why do you think this is the case?
What do you think "italian specialist" Angela?

It can be a pretty standard look in these areas I think. My point of departure was the eyes I guess (the shape) Its a little harder to say in a black and white photo.

bicicleur
11-08-16, 18:50
........ a German

Northener
11-08-16, 18:55
It can be a pretty standard look in these areas I think. My point of departure was the eyes I guess (the shape) Its a little harder to say in a black and white photo.

Yes he would stay unnoted here, I guess.....: 7917

Northener
11-08-16, 19:19
........ a German
thanks bicicleur! Munich, Berlin or Hamburg?

bicicleur
11-08-16, 20:08
thanks bicicleur! Munich, Berlin or Hamburg?

I'd guess Hamburg because some Dutch look like that too.

Maleth
11-08-16, 20:14
Yes he would stay unnoted here, I guess.....: 7917

I think so

Sile
11-08-16, 20:14
Czech/Bohemian

Northener
12-08-16, 17:08
Ok let's make it clear it's my grandfather (1908-1981), one of the last generations cotters in the eastern part of Groningen, close to the German border. Later on he was a local labour leader and alderman. I can imagine the remarks of Maleth. He could be one of the old people on a Piazza in Southern Italy I guess. See also the following picture:

7926

As Angela stated


Believe it or not I have cousins who look a little bit like you
about Italians who look like Northern Europeans it obviously works also the other way around. Long live the diversity of Europe!
What are the roots of his somewhat darkish features (darkblond, brown eyes etc). Look at this picture of the family of my great grandfather, my grandfather stands totally on the left, it's taken about the first world war:
7929

And than look close to his mother, ok it's an old picture (sorry for the bad effect):
7928

Could be a southern European woman I guess. Her family comes from Belm, Osnabrück (Northwestern Germany) and they went in the 19th century to Groningen. This family was famous for their darkish outlook, in their village they were called swartish ('swaarde' in the local dialect).

May be in the gene pool of Northwestern Europe there were some "cro-magnon" of "paleothic" "relics" or features?

I don't like the racial thinking but may be C.S. Coon had a point when he stated in "Racial Adaptations" (1982):

" Dark, mesocephalic, tall race, Littoral or Atlanto-Mediterranean race, so styles because it is found in a pure or mixed state along the shores of the Mediterranean from Gibraltar to mouth of the Tibur, and on several points of the Atlantic coast, from the straits of Gibraltar to the mouth of the Guadalquivair, on the Bay of Biscay, in the lower valley of the Loire, ect. It is not met with anywhere at a greater distance that 120 or 150 miles from the sea. This Littoral race is still little studied; it is distinguished by its moderate dolichocephaly or mesocephaly (ceph. ind. on living subjects 79 to 80), by its stature above the average (im. 66), and very deep colouring of the hair and eyes. It corresponds pretty well with the "Mediterranean race" of Houze, and with the Cro-Magnon race of certain authors. It is probably with the Littoral race that we must connect a secondary so-called North-Western race, tall, sub-dolichocephalic, with chestnut hair, often almost brown. It found chiefly in a the north-west of Ireland(Fig. 93), in Wales(Fig. 19) and the east of Belgium."

Any more idea's about this???

Northener
12-08-16, 17:13
double posting sorry

Angela
12-08-16, 21:33
Sorry I didn't respond earlier. I didn't see it.

It's very hard to "guess" with older people. I'm afraid that things start to naturally "sag" a bit, and they put on weight, all of which obscures the bones of the face.

If I had guessed, I might have said southern German/Austrian first.

Please, I'm not a "specialist" in Italians...I've just lived among them and seen a lot of them over time, so I can sometimes spot them. :)

As far as similarities to older Italian men, yes there is some, but still different, I think. Here he is again.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7907&d=1470649746

Here is Pietro Grasso, who is an Italian politician from Sicily. He's less "Mediterranean" looking than many Italians, but he's still a bit different from your relative.

http://www.repubblica.it/images/2013/03/20/013746634-2ce30e06-beb3-410f-9764-b795ea8047db.jpg

I'm trying to think of someone from my own area, but all the public people who come to mind still retain somewhat sharper features even in old age.

http://www.manfredogiuliani.com/wp-content/uploads/20121229-006-300x300.jpg

This is Loris Jacopo Bononi, from my area, a writer, scientist, great historian of the Lunigiana...quite different, I think...
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/uAJ6O4LCNPY/maxresdefault.jpg

http://www.metaprintart.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LJB-CdT-01-604x272.jpg

Maybe he would fit more within this kind of variation? They zoom in on the singers around 1:00.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCuxZKSATak


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCuxZKSATak

The only explanation is that there's a lot of variation in Europe, although more in some countries than in others, but that's to be expected, I think, given that we're all mixtures in different proportions of the same couple of ancient groups. Just look at the percentages on the new calculator:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32619-Ancient-Eurasia-K6?p=487123

Nor do I think that "phenotype" is strictly connected with certain "components". They sort of float, I think.

Northener
13-08-16, 10:30
Sorry I didn't respond earlier. I didn't see it.

It's very hard to "guess" with older people. I'm afraid that things start to naturally "sag" a bit, and they put on weight, all of which obscures the bones of the face.

If I had guessed, I might have said southern German/Austrian first.

Please, I'm not a "specialist" in Italians...I've just lived among them and seen a lot of them over time, so I can sometimes spot them. :)

As far as similarities to older Italian men, yes there is some, but still different, I think. Here he is again.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7907&d=1470649746

Here is Pietro Grasso, who is an Italian politician from Sicily. He's less "Mediterranean" looking than many Italians, but he's still a bit different from your relative.

http://www.repubblica.it/images/2013/03/20/013746634-2ce30e06-beb3-410f-9764-b795ea8047db.jpg

I'm trying to think of someone from my own area, but all the public people who come to mind still retain somewhat sharper features even in old age.

http://www.manfredogiuliani.com/wp-content/uploads/20121229-006-300x300.jpg

This is Loris Jacopo Bononi, from my area, a writer, scientist, great historian of the Lunigiana...quite different, I think...
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/uAJ6O4LCNPY/maxresdefault.jpg

http://www.metaprintart.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/LJB-CdT-01-604x272.jpg

Maybe he would fit more within this kind of variation? They zoom in on the singers around 1:00.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCuxZKSATak


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCuxZKSATak

The only explanation is that there's a lot of variation in Europe, although more in some countries than in others, but that's to be expected, I think, given that we're all mixtures in different proportions of the same couple of ancient groups. Just look at the percentages on the new calculator:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32619-Ancient-Eurasia-K6?p=487123

Nor do I think that "phenotype" is strictly connected with certain "components". They sort of float, I think.


Thanks Angela! I think Pietro Grasso comes close. But most Italian examples are more gracile, less german. The choir is chosen well. I saw they come from Südtirol, so you may suspect some German influences....That brings us to your Austrian observation. Isn't that close to the Brünn type which Coon described in the mid twentieth century. It's derrived from foundings near Brno, Czech. All ways to describe Germans with more darkish features. Coon and other anthropologist, classifiers, had always trouble to classify them: Brunn, Atlanto-Nordid, Paleo-Atlantid,Northwestern, Strandid, Littorid, Black-Breeded and so on.....

In some way I see some similarities (forgive me grandfather ;) with Ötzi (also nearby Sudtirol) and a man from the Swifterbant culture (5300-3400 BC) in the Netherlands:
79367937

Or is this a kind of projection????

I see the gene pool, the phenotype, as a big tombola.... For example one of my grandfathers brothers (the oldest one standing behind his parents in the middle) was much lighter. But it stays fascinating what composed the ingredients of the big tombola!

MOESAN
21-08-16, 22:22
Some phenotypes are very more common in certain countries than in others. So groups are a bit easier to put in their country of origin than individuals, among whom a lot can pass in a lot of countries. So classify individuals by country is more a guess play than a scientific job, what does not prevent sometimes to distinguish phenotypic components what is not total auDNA component.

Maleth
22-08-16, 08:29
7929

And than look close to his mother, ok it's an old picture (sorry for the bad effect):
7928



I love these old photos. I think your father must have got his looks from his mum as your grandfather is much more typical dutch looking in my opinion.

Northener
22-08-16, 22:25
Some phenotypes are very more common in certain countries than in others. So groups are a bit easier to put in their country of origin than individuals, among whom a lot can pass in a lot of countries. So classify individuals by country is more a guess play than a scientific job, what does not prevent sometimes to distinguish phenotypic components what is not total auDNA component.

I love these old photos. I think your father must have got his looks from his mum as your grandfather is much more typical dutch looking in my opinion.

Thanks Maleth, it was an generation earlier, my grandfather and my great grandfather, I still have a picture great great grandfather (1842-1907) and his wife....with full beard ;)

Moesan about phenotyping: always tricky and 'pseudo scientific'. My great grandmother was a a dark brunette,less stereotype Dutch, otherwise she had a german outlook, less gracile than in more southern regions, her family (her grandfather) came original from Osnabruck NW Germany.

In my region most northeastern part of the Netherlands is this phenotype prominent: high and broad faces, clear forehead and somewhat pointy chins. much of my old class mates and myself fit more or less in this picture:

7958