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berun
21-08-16, 09:12
If not posted before or if they are barely known:

Díaz N., Solórzano E., Montiel, R., García, C., Yañez C., Malgosa, A., 2004, Determination genétique de l’individu
Néolithique de Segudet (Ordino), les restes humains les plus anciens d’Andorre. Antropo, 7, 39-44.
www.didac.ehu.es/antropo (http://www.didac.ehu.es/antropo)

Woman buried inside a cist in Ordino (Andorra), Epicardial culture and dated by 4200 BC; the region had a traditional economy of cattle herding (wintering in the valley and herding in the grasslands that are above the 2300m in summer), in the pots found in the cist it was found already residue of milk and grains. mtDNA K.

...........

LA NECRÓPOLIS DE ÉPOCA TARTÉSICA DE LA ANGORRILLA (Alcalá del Río, Sevilla)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281970828_ESTUDIO_DEL_ADN_MITOCONDRIAL_DE_LOS_REST OS_HUMANOS_HALLADOS_EN_EL_YACIMIENTO_DE_LA_ANGORRI LLA_ALCALA_DEL_RIO_SEVILLA

Two women and two men buried in the VII BC were tested for mtDNA with online databases, the results taken from not optimal samples were obtained for three individuals which PhyloTree classified as H - HV, H1, and H1a1.

I would expect some Phoenician mtDNA as the "Orietalizing Period" is the label for a real colonization.

...........

not ancient DNA but dealing with dates...:

DNA Polymorphisms in Human Populations
8, 9, 10 December 2016, Musée de l’Homme, Paris, France
http://ecoanthropologie.mnhn.fr/DPHP2016/DPHP2016_plenary.htm
A Bronze Age lineage dominates the Y-chromosome landscape in the Iberian Peninsula


The genetic landscape of the Iberian Peninsula is dominated (as in the rest of Western Europe) by haplogroup R1b, which comprises two thirds of the Y chromosomes; the rest is divided roughly equally between E-M35, G, I, and J. Within R1b, R1b-S116 (also known as P312 dominates, with ~60% in Spain;it further trifurcates into three major branches having distinct geographical distributions: M529 (L21 radiating from the British Isles, U152 in France, Switzerland and N. Italy, and DF27 in the Iberian Peninsula. DF27 is poorly known, and we have sought to characterize its distribution and diversity, with the aim of reconstructing its history. We have typed DF27 and six of its derived SNPs, as well as 16 Y-STRs in 2,993 males from 32 populations located in Spain, Portugal, France and Ireland; SNP allele frequencies were also gathered from the reference populations in the 1000 Genomes Project. We confirmed that DF27 is the most frequent haplogroup in Iberia, with an average frequency ~45%, while it dropped to <15% right across the Pyrenees. Within Iberia, it ranged from 40% in most populations to ~75% in Basques. Elsewhere, it showed high frequencies in Colombia and Puerto Rico, which implies it can be used to trace Iberian male migrations into the Americas. However, our most striking result is how young DF27 is. We estimated from STR variation that DF27 originated 4,000±150 years ago (ya); it took it just 120 generations to grow to ~12 million carriers in Iberia and ~75 million in Central and South America (assuming just 1/3 paternal Iberian ancestry). This places the origin of DF27 in the early Bronze Age, and at least 2,000 years after the arrival of the Neolithic, which was supposed to be the last major event that shaped the European genetic landscape. The DF27 expansion may be part of a global trend, in which bursts of male lineages have been observed at different periods, and in different geographical regions (Poznik et al. 2016.

The young age for DF27 is not to correlate goodly with the Raithlin results as the sample more old is of around 2000 BC and had already two mutuations below L21, providing so a date that fits better with YFull of around 2500 BC and the time that Bell Beakers entered the British Isles... so let's check if at least they know such discrepancy.

Angela
21-08-16, 18:42
Berun,
"The young age for DF27 is not to correlate goodly with the Raithlin results as the sample more old is of around 2000 BC and had already two mutuations below L21, providing so a date that fits better with YFull of around 2500 BC and the time that Bell Beakers entered the British Isles... so let's check if at least they know such discrepancy."



Could you explain in more detail what you mean here? The paper is proposing a big expansion of DF27 in the Bronze Age around 2000 BC, which makes sense as that's probably the time that the "Indo-Europeans" moved into Iberia. There doesn't seem to be anything new in this paper, actually.

Why doesn't that correlate with the Rathlin results?

This is the Rathlin paper for ease of reference:
Laura M. Cassidy et al:
"Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome"


http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full

It's not the same y lineage; Rathlin is R1b L21.

berun
21-08-16, 22:20
Both DF27 and L21 "brothers" appeared around 2500 BC if we follow YTree. This date is fine when we find in Rathlin a sample two mutations below L21 in 2000 BC. But instead this paper says that DF27 originated around 2000 BC. Ancient DNA facts are providing an older date.

By the way at 2000 BC in the Iberian Peninsula there is nothing noticeable in archaelogy, if that would be the date of the IE introgression the IE hordes would be quite noticeable, or not? Instead by 2500 BC the Bell Beakers were expanding in Central Spain... but from Portugal, not from Ukraine.

MOESAN
21-08-16, 22:46
Y-R1b-DF27 perhaps appeared around the 2000 BC - I' have not the knowledge to discuss it - but the date of its apparition is not by force the date of its introduction in Spain, I would guess as around the 1500 BC. I see DF27 born in East-Central or South-Central France before an expansion which placed it in Iberia, from North to South. I know some L51 had high variance (whatever the true value of this) also in Southern Spain but it makes not this late region the craddle of it. I can do mistake but I suppose a maritime way for scarce old ligneages of R1b into Iberia and Italy, independant from a greater migration of other "younger" R1b along Danube and South Baltic shores. Wait for proofs.

berun
22-08-16, 07:24
Well, it's a possibility also but mine is backed by facts: demographic increase in south Portugal archaelogically atested able to expand (and more people more mutations), advanced copper weapons (delivered into cultures that only had previously metals for decoration), the time frame coincides with the expansion of BB, and R1b is linked to BB sites.

In fact the BB population and their skills might be quite developed as they were able to impose their culture over the most advanced culture (demographicaly and technicaly) in west Europe by then:

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultura_arqueol%C3%B3gica_de_Los_Millares

MOESAN
26-08-16, 00:39
BBs expansion in Europe doesn't seem a progressive and wavelike thing. I will not go into details I don't master because it needs very large and deep look. It seems must of the people speaking about BBs don't know more than me, perhaps less.
I'm not aware of a global increase in pop in Iberia at the beginning of the first BBs manifestations in archeology. They seem in Portugal rather a marginal phenomenon at first before investing fortified settlements occupied before by other Chalco people. (by the way it seems the first BBs were not from Southern Portugal but from more Northern sites). In Denmark their period is not the time of a strong demic increase, compared to Megalithic+TRBK.
I red about Copper in Iberia that there has been a kind of crisis and a demic decrease at the end of the Copper. In Los Millares territory (3000 to 2200 BC roughly said) The BB's took the strong side only about the 2200 BC, more by taking profit of a cultural implosion and filling a hole than submerging the whole region by a demographic flood. In other Spain regions they seem controlling valleys and passes (and surely ores mines) but they don't appear as a sea of tribes settling the whole territories they controlled.
If you (Berun) have a precise recent survey about BBs time demography in Iberia I would be glad to read it, because knowledge evolves with new works, we see that in DNA.
I have no agenda, I'm very hesitating. I don't discard a Y-R1b dominant among first BBs in Iberia, but which R1b subclade(s)? the DF27 seems to me of Northern origin in Iberia, not of a southern one. Some "brother" subclades are found too in Scandinavia/Germany if I red well. So?

berun
28-08-16, 09:16
I have not any new paper about BB demography but at least I'm able to unite dots:

By 2900 BC Neolithic villages and Neolithic ditched enclosures are being fortified in S Portugal, and to do so it's necessary to have a lot of working people and above all a lot of conflict that could have it's origin in wars to acess other's goods (ores or stored products from the Secondary Products Revolution), or in demographic pressures... or both, being such citadels among the first in Western Europe, and maybe also among Eastern Europe by then, and appearing just when Troy was opening by the first time its doors, so that


The sites of settlement in this regional area, and within this time frame, are
characterised by the great diversity of their implantation, architecture and size, with
there being an increase in the number of sites dating from the late Neolithic period,
which may point to such phenomena as an endogenous population increase or the arrival
in the region of exogenous elements (fig. 8).

By 2900 BC also appear the BB phenomenon in such area and such people display a warlike agenda taking advantage from metallurgy: copper daggers, arrowheads, spears with copper points... that in front of the old Neolithic stone axes would be decisive. As the BB had a defensive organization and advanced weapons, surely they would have also attacking strategies.

So there is the base for a quick expansion to Western Europe, by C14 we know that the oldest BB was in Portugal, and by DNA we know today that the BB were related to R1b, so that they were exogenous in Germany, that they also went to the British Islands from the Rhine, and that they were not natural in Central Spain as there is a DNA disruption there between Neolithics and Calcolithics; for Germany itself the increase of mtDNA H with BB is linked to the Iberian popultation, so that C14 and DNA seem to agree by now.

For population, Central Europe / CW suffered a loss of popualtion by 2500 BC (from 3 million to two) which could be attributed to cold climatology and poor harvests, wars, viruses... but whichever the cause the case is that around 48% of the population was exogenous (a million), and as this case coincides with the appearance of the BB and R1b I may unite dots that allow to understand the change in DNA and Y-DNA, but not knowing yet if they arrived there as invaders or by having technological advantages which allowed to occupy the place of the two deceased CW millions.

So summing facts give a rather clear picture that with Occam's razor is more clearcut, but of course the history could be another but by now is devoid of facts (Yamnayans riding seahorses per example...?).

Refs: "Wall, gates and towers. (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273123821_Walls_doors_and_towers_Fortified_settlem ents_in_the_south_and_centre_of_Portugal_some_note s_about_violence_and_walls_in_the_3rd_millenium_BC E)Fortified settlements in the south and centre of Portugal: some notes about violence and walls in the 3rd millenium BCE (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273123821_Walls_doors_and_towers_Fortified_settlem ents_in_the_south_and_centre_of_Portugal_some_note s_about_violence_and_walls_in_the_3rd_millenium_BC E)" and "Demographic traces of technological innovation, social change and mobility: from 1 to 8 million Europeans (6000-2000BCE) (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285683218_Demographic_traces_of_technological_inno vation_social_change_and_mobility_from_1_to_8_mill ion_Europeans_6000-2000BCE)"

berun
28-08-16, 09:21
For the northern DF27 core, I think that if S Portugal retains now more than 60% of the old DNA it would be impressive, as such area received a lot of Celtics, Phoenicians, Romans, Arabs/Berbers and then Portugueses.

berun
08-10-16, 15:41
Twenty DNA samples are being tested from a recently found Chalcolithic hypogeum in Andalusia.

http://cabrainformacion.com/ver.php?categoria=104&id_noticia=10818

Photos

http://www.webgea.es/noticias/55-excavaciones-en-la-cueva-artificial-de-la-belena-en-cabra-(cordoba)

Aaron1981
08-10-16, 16:24
So there is the base for a quick expansion to Western Europe, by C14 we know that the oldest BB was in Portugal, and by DNA we know today that the BB were related to R1b, so that they were exogenous in Germany, that they also went to the British Islands from the Rhine, and that they were not natural in Central Spain as there is a DNA disruption there between Neolithics and Calcolithics; for Germany itself the increase of mtDNA H with BB is linked to the Iberian popultation, so that C14 and DNA seem to agree by now.


Refs: "Wall, gates and towers. (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273123821_Walls_doors_and_towers_Fortified_settlem ents_in_the_south_and_centre_of_Portugal_some_note s_about_violence_and_walls_in_the_3rd_millenium_BC E)Fortified settlements in the south and centre of Portugal: some notes about violence and walls in the 3rd millenium BCE (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273123821_Walls_doors_and_towers_Fortified_settlem ents_in_the_south_and_centre_of_Portugal_some_note s_about_violence_and_walls_in_the_3rd_millenium_BC E)" and "Demographic traces of technological innovation, social change and mobility: from 1 to 8 million Europeans (6000-2000BCE) (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285683218_Demographic_traces_of_technological_inno vation_social_change_and_mobility_from_1_to_8_mill ion_Europeans_6000-2000BCE)"

You are leaping to a conclusion on the aDNA. We just know the central European BB were R1b, not that they arrived from Spain. We have no idea where the men arrived from, if at all, just the context of their burial and their Y SNPs. I do agree that mtDNA H1, H3 are consistent with local European origins, and could *possibly* infer SW European influx. This is a stronger case than the Y side for sure. The transition from CW to BB seems to include an awful lot of EEF admixture.

bicicleur
08-10-16, 17:11
You are leaping to a conclusion on the aDNA. We just know the central European BB were R1b, not that they arrived from Spain. We have no idea where the men arrived from, if at all, just the context of their burial and their Y SNPs. I do agree that mtDNA H1, H3 are consistent with local European origins, and could *possibly* infer SW European influx. This is a stronger case than the Y side for sure. The transition from CW to BB seems to include an awful lot of EEF admixture.

what transition from CW to BB?

berun
08-10-16, 19:09
@Aaron1981, it's guessing, using mtDNA and C14; also Portugal is where the mainstream farming culture stopped, and some effect must have it in Y DNA. Now learning how Mesolithic D is a third of the Japanese Y DNA, and that R1b was in Western Europe from Paleolithic... it's just to find out the process.

berun
28-10-16, 18:04
Just to add up this paper noticed here (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/2016/10/mitochondrial-dna-from-post-neolithic.html), dealing with ancient mtDNA from the Basque Country.

J.C. López Quintana et al., NUEVOS DATOS SOBRE LA SECUENCIA DE USO SEPULCRAL DE LA CUEVA DE SANTIMAMIÑE (KORTEZUBI, BIZKAIA). Arqueología y Prehistoria del Interior Peninsular (ARPI (http://www.arqueologiaprehistorica.es/revistas/arpi%2003-15.pdf)), 2016.



Neolithic:

U5a2a (S2011-M2, c. 5100 BCE)


Chalcolithic:

T2b (S-1, c. 2000 BCE)


Bronze Age:

U5b (S2011-M1 c. 1700 BCE)
H1 (S2011-M4, c. 1700 BCE)
R0 (S2011-M6, c. 1500 BCE)
U3a (S2011-M3 c. 1300 BCE)


Roman period:

R0 (S2011-M5, c. 300 CE)




the blogger advises that the results are based in old data collection.

Olympus Mons
28-10-16, 23:54
Just to add up this paper noticed here (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/2016/10/mitochondrial-dna-from-post-neolithic.html), .... are based in old data collection.

Berun. And the most forgeted and very rare H10e in 3500BC in Portugal, at the exact spot where the BB arise and the only other sample one finds is in EUlau CWC (2500bc) where we know BBc met CWC.
most were T2b I think....

All different, all equal: Evidence of a heterogeneous Neolithic population at the Bom Santo Cave necropolis (Portugal)”

berun
23-01-17, 16:56
A 2016 paper (http://tp.revistas.csic.es/index.php/tp/issue/view/53/showToc): "The Minorcan Talayotic Period from a genetic point of view: the Cova des Pas necropolis", only 20 mtDNA...: 1 W, 12 H, 4 U, 1 U5, 2 K. Minorca was peopled from around 2300 BC, the necropolis dates about 850 BC.

By deduction it seems that in the final Calco the actual percents were already set in the mainland.

berun
12-10-17, 11:36
A spolier from Ibiza: I don't know now hgow to attach pictures, no poster so. http://www.diariodeibiza.es/pitiuses-balears/2017/09/24/fenicios-pitiusos-libaneses/941967.html googletranslation...: A study reveals the Lebanese DNA of the Phoenicians of Ibiza A study on the distribution of the Phoenicians in the Mediterranean includes the analysis of the DNA of the Ibizan Punic josé miguel l. romero ibiza 25.09.2017 | 10:37 Pierre Zalloua durante la conferencia en el Museo de la Necrópolis. Pierre Zalloua during the conference at the Museum of the Necropolis. Archeology. The Ibizan Phoenicians were more Lebanese than the Canaanites themselves, while the citizens of Tire or Sidon possessed in their genes more European traces than those of the Pitius themselves. It is one of the surprising results obtained from the analysis of the DNA of the inhabitants of that civilization that the Lebanese biologist Pierre Zalloua made known in a talk in the Museum of the Necropolis of Puig des Molins. "No, it is not a joke". Although it seems so. The end of the conference 'Mitochondrial genomes of the ancient Phoenicians', given on Friday in Eivissa by biologist Pierre Zalloua, American University of Lebanon, was traca: in the DNA sequences of the Phoenicians ibicencos have found more eastern traces of the expected ones , even more than those found in those of the Lebanese Phoenicians themselves. But, in addition, in the genome of the Lebanese they have detected more European traces of which it was expected in principle, there are even more than those found in the old pitiusos. The world upside down. Is not it a heavy joke, it will not be that someone moved the graves, maybe there was an error in the analysis? "No, it's not a joke," Zalloua said at the end of his talk, smiling for having accomplished his purpose: to disconcert his audience, which filled the meeting room of the Museum of the Necropolis of Puig des Molins. The conclusion of the study, which was carried out after analyzing Punic skeletal remains of the Eivissa tombs, is difficult to assimilate, even for the researchers themselves: the Pythian samples have little to do with those of Bronze Age Europe, "but they are more close to those of the Neolithic Levant. The Ibizan Phoenicians look like Lebanese! "Exclaimed Zalloua. On the contrary, "the analyzed samples of the Phoenician tombs of Beirut are very similar to those of the ancient European populations of the late Neolithic". In the genetic map, the ibicencan DNA appears mapped where the Lebanese should be . And vice versa. It is as if the map of the Mediterranean had folded, so that Lebanon appeared on its western coast, and Eivissa between Syria and Israel. Underestimated migratory flow Now, in addition to digesting this information, find an explanation, which is not easy. "It is difficult to explain," says the Lebanese biologist: "Perhaps," he continues, "we have underestimated the frequency of people's movement at that time." That could be the key: that in those times there would be more migratory flows than we imagined and that the borders would be more diluted than the current ones. The world of such genetic analyzes resembles that described in 'Sinuhe the Egyptian' or 'Lion the African', rather than that of modern civilization, whose borders are increasingly impermeable. In his view, "it is difficult to understand why there was then so much movement of population". "We are at the beginning of this research," says the Lebanese researcher, who specializes in genetic links between populations in the Middle East and the Mediterranean. Research on this subject is being developed with the Phoenician DNA of Cadiz and Malta could be decisive. For the study they chose to analyze mitochondrial DNA (in which only the genetic information of the mother appears), because it is more abundant and easier to obtain than the nucleus (in this case, father and mother). In the case of Eivissa (also investigated in Sardinia and Beirut) collected 11 samples from four Punic sites, but only obtained eight sequences, because in three cases the DNA "was not of sufficient quality". Only in one of the samples, in the extracted from the deposit of Can Portes des Jurat, they obtained mitochondrial as well as nucleus DNA. Zalloua clarified that the remains analyzed belonged to Punic and not the first Phoenicians arrived in Eivissa, as the latter burned their dead, so getting their DNA was mission impossible. According to Elisa A. Matisoo-Smith, Professor of Biological Anthropology at the University of Otago (New Zealand), who is part of the research team of this project and was present at the talk, the results of mitochondrial DNA studied "imply that men from the East-from the narrow fringe of present-day Lebanon in which the Phoenicians lived-mingled with the local Ibizan women, just as happened in Sardinia. " And possibly the same thing happened in the opposite direction: the Europeans mingled with the Orientals in the Lebanese zone. This, according to Zalloua, shows a society more concerned with integration than with conquest and slavery, although there were also: "The Phoenicians had an inclusive, multicultural nature." He did not want to give many clues, but Pierre Zalloua left in the air the suspicion that there may be more surprises coming soon. For example, that may result from the study of the haplogroup (set of haplotypes, which are sets of DNA variations) T2b, found in one of the 18 samples taken to ibicencos today. The 18 were different, but one of them contained that T2b, something surprising because, according to the biologist, was also found in the genetic sample extracted from a Punic in the deposit of Can Portes des Jurat and because that same haplogroup has been detected in the Phoenicians in Lebanon: "The existence of the T2b haplogroup calls our attention," said Zalloua with a raspy smile, as if he knew that he would soon bewilder us.

halfalp
13-10-17, 12:52
So summing facts give a rather clear picture that with Occam's razor is more clearcut, but of course the history could be another but by now is devoid of facts (Yamnayans riding seahorses per example...?).

By the time, is it Horse or Eastern Europe that scares you seriously ? Horse came with warfare in all historical facts, what is the point with yamnaya ? Not enough semits or something else than european for you ?

berun
13-10-17, 18:12
There are a lot of inconsistencies with a steppe origin for IE, I guess a "Kievan Kingdom" origin just by triangulation, as nowadays proofs from there are almost zero.

MOESAN
13-10-17, 23:12
@Berun
interesting post#16. Thanks.
but mt is only mt - we know women were picked or married here and there; modern mediterranean X-DNA is more level by instance than the remnant of autosomals DNA: unceasing exchanges, at least since Eneolithic, surely at rather small scale but everlasting. The higher the social class, the most mixed the DNA: we have seen that in Europe everywhere at metals ages, and at these times the burying we have are the elites ones for the most.

berun
14-10-17, 11:08
Well, from the spolier, if ancient Tirians and Sidonians were more European than Ibiza's Phoenicians it points clearly to the effect of the Sea Peoples, why the island's Phoenicians were more similar to the Chalcolithic West Asians? maybe by the case is that Phoenician elithes admixed more with the incoming Europeans.

MOESAN
14-10-17, 12:39
@Berun:
Possible - I don't remember: how many Phoenicians of Lebanon and had been studied?

berun
14-10-17, 15:37
No idea, we will know when Zalloua will publish his paper.