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Tomenable
30-08-16, 23:09
I just got my R1b SNP Pack results from FTDNA, and it says that I am L617:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617/

Based on 37 STR-s I was predicted to be L21, so it turned out to be wrong.

I guess it shows that it is better to order SNP Pack instead of more STR-s.

Anyway - coming back to L617 - what do we know about this subclade ???

Regio X
31-08-16, 02:43
If you haven't joined the project yet: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l617/about

About: http://www.kin.marshdna.com/DNAresultsL617.htm

Fire Haired14
31-08-16, 04:49
DF27 brother

Twilight
31-08-16, 06:51
I just got my R1b SNP Pack results from FTDNA, and it says that I am L617:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617/

Based on 37 STR-s I was predicted to be L21, so it turned out to be wrong.

I guess it shows that it is better to order SNP Pack instead of more STR-s.

Anyway - coming back to L617 - what do we know about this subclade ???

Interesting, I don't think Maciamo saying anything about R1b-DF27 anywhere near Poland. Are you sure you don't have any ancestors from Western Europe or South Germany ;). On the flips side, it's not unheard of to get R1b-DF27 in Poland so I'm not sure if it's just rare or more DNA to discover.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#DF27
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l617/about

Tomenable
31-08-16, 06:57
I've joined the L617 Project.

Here is a map of distribution (my line is the one which goes back to year 1832 in Poland - Koźmin Wlkp. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koźmin_Wielkopolski); there is another guy whose line goes back to 1855 in Lithuania - Šiauliai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Šiauliai)); that guy had a different surname, but both surnames sound Polish/Slavic:

https://s13.postimg.io/b2rmthmcn/L617_map.png

Tomenable
31-08-16, 07:26
Are you sure you don't have any ancestors from Western Europe or South Germany

I have Meller ancestors (it is a Dutch/Low German surname) BUT they are on my mom's side.

Y-DNA comes from my dad's side (direct paternal ancestry) and here I don't have any Non-Polish ancestors. The surname is typically Polish without anything indicating foreign origin and has been like this at least since 1832 when my Y-ancestor lived in or around the town of Koźmin Wielkopolski.

The other Eastern L617 guy who lived in Lithuania in 1855 also had a Polish surname - Sobolewski. My ancestor had a different surname, but typically Polish and with "-ski" suffix / ending.

So no, I don't think that it is recent immigration.

Who knows, maybe it was the other way around - maybe L617 migrated from Eastern Europe to Western Europe in the Bronze Age, and "we" ("me" + "Sobolewski") stayed behind?

Or maybe it is of Celtic origin?

Tomenable
31-08-16, 07:39
On the flips side, it's not unheard of to get R1b-DF27 in Poland so I'm not sure if it's just rare or more DNA to discover

DF27 as a whole is not so rare in Poland - around two percent IIRC (later I will check) - but L617 subclade is.

L617 is not just rare in Poland, it is in general rare anywhere - it seems.

British customers are overrepresented, probably that's why most of people in L617 Project are from Britain.

Tomenable
31-08-16, 07:44
In Britain it seems to be concentrated in Southern England and Cornwall.

Maciamo
31-08-16, 09:17
Interesting, I don't think Maciamo saying anything about R1b-DF27 anywhere near Poland. Are you sure you don't have any ancestors from Western Europe or South Germany ;). On the flips side, it's not unheard of to get R1b-DF27 in Poland so I'm not sure if it's just rare or more DNA to discover.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#DF27
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l617/about

There isn't a lot of DF27 outside western Europe. But since it has been found in the Caucasus and the Carpathians, there is a good chance that it already existed before R1b PIE left the Pontic Steppe.

Tomenable
31-08-16, 09:49
1) Polish R1b according to Myres et al. 2010 (total: 18,35%):

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/suppinfo/ejhg2010146s1.html

U106 - 5,94%

P312 - 5,47% - including:

P312>U152 - 3,47%
DF27 & P312* - 1,01%
P312>L21 - 0,99%

L51>L11* - 0,5%
L51(xL11) - 0,5%

L23(xL51) - 5,44%
M269(xL23) - 0,5%

2) Polish R1b according to Peter Gwozdz (total: 12,5%):

http://www.gwozdz.org/Results.html

U106 - 4,5% - including:

U106>L48>L47>"P Type" - 1,2%
U106>L48>L47>other - 0,4%
U106>L48>Z9 - 1,2%
U106>L48>other - 0,5%
U106(xL48) - 1,2%

P312 - 4,5% - including:

U152>L2 - 1,7%
U152(xL2) - 0,4%
DF27>Z196 - 1,2%
DF27(xZ196) - 0,1%
L21 & P312* - 1,1%

Z2103 - 2,2% - including:

Z2103>Y5587("EE Type")>BY593 - 1,5%
Z2103>Y5587("EE Type")>other - 0,5%
Z2103>all other subclades - 0,2%

M269>other - 1,1%
L754(xM269) - 0,2%

Tomenable
31-08-16, 09:50
So it seems that my subclade is less than 0,1%. Because it is not under DF27>Z196, but DF27(xZ196).

Tomenable
31-08-16, 12:42
The other Easterner is basal L617* (he is the one listed by YFull as either id:YF04846 or id:YF04446):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617/

I might be basal L617* as well, and maybe if I order the Big Y, we will form a new subclade together.

Twilight
31-08-16, 16:56
There isn't a lot of DF27 outside western Europe. But since it has been found in the Caucasus and the Carpathians, there is a good chance that it already existed before R1b PIE left the Pontic Steppe.

Slime trail hypothesis :), well if that is the case it appears Kozmin was in the vicinity of the Eastern Unetice Culture just by comparing the two maps. Kozmin was occupied by the Unetice culture before being absorbed by the Trzciniec Culture in the late Bronze Age.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#early_middle_bronze_age
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koźmin_Wielkopolski
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture



In Britain it seems to be concentrated in Southern England and Cornwall.


I have Meller ancestors (it is a Dutch/Low German surname) BUT they are on my mom's side.

Y-DNA comes from my dad's side (direct paternal ancestry) and here I don't have any Non-Polish ancestors. The surname is typically Polish without anything indicating foreign origin and has been like this at least since 1832 when my Y-ancestor lived in or around the town of Koźmin Wielkopolski.


The other Eastern L617 guy who lived in Lithuania in 1855 also had a Polish surname - Sobolewski. My ancestor had a different surname, but typically Polish and with "-ski" suffix / ending.

So no, I don't think that it is recent immigration.

Who knows, maybe it was the other way around - maybe L617 migrated from Eastern Europe to Western Europe in the Bronze Age, and "we" ("me" + "Sobolewski") stayed behind?

Or maybe it is of Celtic origin?
On a side note, it's quite interesting that L617 is concentrated in Cornwall . Cornwall happens to be at least one of the hubs where Bronze Age Tin was mined.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Bronze_Age
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Cornwall_and_Devon

berun
31-08-16, 17:41
Just a working hypothesis to check, but it would be quite factible by being recent and historical, it's an origin from Spanish Jews after their expulsion from Spain.

Tomenable
31-08-16, 19:03
Just a working hypothesis to check, but it would be quite factible by being recent and historical, it's an origin from Spanish Jews after their expulsion from Spain.

My Y-chromosome ancestors were Roman Catholics (at least as far back as 1832):

Walery K. born in 1904 in Koźmin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koźmin_Wielkopolski); married Jadwiga M. and they settled in nearby Dobrzyca (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobrzyca)
parents: Franciscus K. and Ludovica B.

Franciscus K. born in 1871; married Ludovica B. in Roman Catholic parish of Koźmin in 1898
parents: Laurentius K. and Elisabeth G.

Laurentius K. born in 1832; married Elisabeth G. in Roman Catholic parish of Koźmin in 1857
parents: not listed by my online source

Now I have a few potential candidates for father of Laurentius, and I'm not yet 100% sure.

But I can easily determine this and then maybe I can get into the 1700s with my paper trail.

Tomenable
31-08-16, 19:07
Berun,

Sephardic Jews were expelled from Iberia around year 1500, IIRC.

Your hypothesis would require a Spanish Jew to come to Poland between the 1500s and 1700s, convert to Roman Catholicism, and change his surname to a 100% Slavic Polish one without any signs of foreign origin - all before 1800. Sounds improbable.

But I ordered "Family Finder" as well - if some Jewish admixture shows up, then I will consider this.

Howver, I think that the presence of L617 in this region is much older than 1500 AD.

berun
31-08-16, 19:52
I have not so much knowledge about Sephardi history, but checking the Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews

there is a map with migrations after being expelled, reaching Poland in the XVII-XVIII century from their "hub" in Thessaloniki. For Polish Jews I know even less, but surely there would be cases of conversion by faith or cases more mundane (the Catholic Church demands that the offspring of a Catholic and a non-Catholic will be Catholic, so that if a Jewish falls in love with a Catholic woman, being so a 90% of the Polish women, if the woman refused to be Jewish or her parents refused that she would marry a Jewish the options left would be few).

By the way in your case I would check other marriages registered in such parish in the same year as to check if also are lacking parents.

Moi-même
31-08-16, 21:09
It could also be some Frank nobility, or Frank servant following his noble master, who end up in Eastern Europe following Charlemagne and sons' conquest and alliance campaign. It could be sea traders. Viking slave trade. Diplomatic delegation send in the Middle Ages to Poland.

Anyway, there's 2 things to check when an unusual haplogroup show up.

1) Who are you closest matches, not in the project but in your match list. Email them and inquire what they know about their last known Y-ancestor. What are their surnames?

2) If your matches don't seem to lead to your area at the very least, it's time for the second question: Was there any Non Paternal Event? If you know a second or third cousin, even if just at Y12 to see if it fits.


Edit: Or it could be an English mariner who had a quick intercourse with a local girl, which gave her name to the baby since the father was unknown...

Edit: How likely is it for a women to give her name to a child in Poland?

Tomenable
31-08-16, 22:38
1) Who are you closest matches, not in the project but in your match list

Two Chisholms from Scotland. But they might be "false matches", because they might be another subclade.

They did not buy SNP Packs so far, and are listed just as generic R1b-M269. They might be L21, not DF27:

https://s32.postimg.org/bbuanjamt/matches.png

https://s32.postimg.org/bbuanjamt/matches.png


Email them and inquire what they know about their last known Y-ancestor.

They have their own Project and I joined it (but there is no any other confirmed L617 there):

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Chisholm/

It seems that STR-s are not very reliable - at least not at this resolution (37 STR markers).

Rethel
31-08-16, 23:07
Sounds improbable.

No, if you are a Frankist :cool-v:


Edit: How likely is it for a women to give her name to a child in Poland?

Only to bastards with unknown father and only after 1800.

Rethel
31-08-16, 23:10
But I can easily determine this and then maybe I can get into the 1700s with my paper trail.

Are you noting all K.?
Becasue if you are going only by your line,
there can be problems, even false track can happen.

Tomenable
01-09-16, 21:19
There isn't a lot of DF27 outside western Europe. But since it has been found in the Caucasus and the Carpathians, there is a good chance that it already existed before R1b PIE left the Pontic Steppe.

I did some research on my subclade.

Apart from British, Iberian, Dutch, French, Lithuanian, Polish and Colonial American (apparently there were many L617 in Virginia in the 1600s) people, there is at least one German. I checked the distribution of his surname (using http://www.verwandt.de/karten/), and I think that he could be originally from the region just to the north of Frankfurt am Main. There are also three (not two)* L617 from Lithuania, but only one with exact location given. I hastily made a map of modern distribution of L617. Cornwall seems to be one of areas of high concentration - even within Britain. Other such areas include the Basque Land (4 samples of L617 in a sample of 229 Basques) and Cambridgeshire. But let's keep in mind that customers of British origin are overrepresented on FTDNA:

https://s4.postimg.io/79wnm2ucd/L617_distribution.png

https://s4.postimg.io/79wnm2ucd/L617_distribution.png

*Surname of one of these guys from Lithuania looks very Polish (most likely an ethnic Pole), but surnames of the other two Lithuanian guys - not so much. These two other surnames are similar to each other, but one ends with suffix "-as" (which is typically Lithuanian), while the other one ends with suffix "-sky/ski" (which looks Polish, but considering that "core parts" of both surnames are similar - perhaps the variant with "-sky" is a Polonised version of the originally Lithuanian surname ending with suffix "-as").

bicicleur
01-09-16, 22:25
could the spread to England have happened during Atlantic bronze age?
the English seem to be FGC14951, TRMCA 3400 years


-L617FGC14937/Y9057 * L617 * FGC14934/Y9056+3 SNPsformed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 3800 ybpinfo (https://www.yfull.com/tree-info/R-L617/)

R-L617* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617*/)

id:YF04846
id:YF04446


R-M225 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M225/)F2106 * M7948 * S14003+3 SNPs

id:HG01606
IBS


R-FGC14951 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC14951/)FGC14951formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 3400 ybpinfo (https://www.yfull.com/tree-info/R-FGC14951/)

R-FGC14951* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC14951*/)

id:YF01856


R-Y17452 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17452/)Y17452 * Y17453 * Y19554+18 SNPsformed 3400 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo (https://www.yfull.com/tree-info/R-Y17452/)

R-Y17452* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17452*/)

id:YF04841
id:YF04839
id:YF04270


R-Y22430 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y22430/)Y22430formed 375 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo (https://www.yfull.com/tree-info/R-Y22430/)

id:YF05858
id:YF05854
id:YF04268

LeBrok
02-09-16, 00:47
I did some research on my subclade.

Apart from British, Iberian, Dutch, French, Lithuanian, Polish and Colonial American (apparently there were many L617 in Virginia in the 1600s) people, there is at least one German. I checked the distribution of his surname (using http://www.verwandt.de/karten/), and I think that he could be originally from the region just to the north of Frankfurt am Main. There are also three (not two)* L617 from Lithuania, but only one with exact location given. I hastily made a map of modern distribution of L617. Cornwall seems to be one of areas of high concentration - even within Britain. Other such areas include the Basque Land (4 samples of L617 in a sample of 229 Basques) and Cambridgeshire. But let's keep in mind that customers of British origin are overrepresented on FTDNA:

https://s4.postimg.io/79wnm2ucd/L617_distribution.png

https://s4.postimg.io/79wnm2ucd/L617_distribution.png

*Surname of one of these guys from Lithuania looks very Polish (most likely an ethnic Pole), but surnames of the other two Lithuanian guys - not so much. These two other surnames are similar to each other, but one ends with suffix "-as" (which is typically Lithuanian), while the other one ends with suffix "-sky/ski" (which looks Polish, but considering that "core parts" of both surnames are similar - perhaps the variant with "-sky" is a Polonised version of the originally Lithuanian surname ending with suffix "-as").
What about religious refugees from Great Britain between 15th and 17th century to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? You know, it was a very tolerant country way back, which accepted many refugees from around Europe and Asia.

Tomenable
02-09-16, 03:22
could the spread to England have happened during Atlantic bronze age?
the English seem to be FGC14951, TRMCA 3400 years

Yes, FGC14951 is the British/English branch. While L617* is the Eastern/Lithuanian branch.

Here are the main branches (it seems that the Eastern/Lithuanian branch is the oldest one):

So I will probably need Big Y or something like this to see whether I'm also L617* or not:

https://s22.postimg.io/5xgcz72f5/L617_branches.png

https://s22.postimg.io/5xgcz72f5/L617_branches.png


What about religious refugees from Great Britain between 15th and 17th century to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? You know, it was a very tolerant country way back, which accepted many refugees from around Europe and Asia.

It depends which is my branch. I still don't know this.

Three Lithuanian guys (Sobolewski, Purisky, Puras) have L617* - and it actually seems to be the oldest branch. So it is unlikely that they came from Britain, because it seems that all of British samples belong to L617>FGC14951+.


could the spread to England have happened during Atlantic bronze age?

Cornwall was an important source of tin during the Atlantic Bronze Age.

So maybe indeed that ancestral FGC14951 came there at that time?

Many of British/English samples belong to Tyndall / Tindale families.

Is it a coincidence? Because these surnames contain the "tin" part...

===================

Edit:

I think that R1b-L617 can be traced back to the Iwno Culture (which was one of Bell Beaker groups):

https://www.academia.edu/2022469/Northern_a...akers_in_Poland (https://www.academia.edu/2022469/Northern_and_Southern_Bell_Beakers_in_Poland)

https://www.academia.edu/2022466/The_Constr..._Central_Europe (https://www.academia.edu/2022466/The_Construction_of_Social_Structure_Bell_Beakers_ and_Trzciniec_Complex_in_North-Eastern_Part_of_Central_Europe)

https://www.academia.edu/2022462/Gesellscha...ichsel_und_Oder (https://www.academia.edu/2022462/Gesellschaftliche_Strukturen_der_Glockenbecherkult ur_im_Gebiet_zwischen_Weichsel_und_Oder)

https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/1...iak_323-330.pdf (https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/10593/9552/1/14_Autoreferaty_doktorskie_SPO%C5%81ECZNO%C5%9ACI% 20SUBNEOLITYCZNE%20NI%C5%BBU%20POLSKI_B_Jozwiak_32 3-330.pdf)

http://rcin.org.pl/iae/Content/27490/WA308...EZWZGLEDN_I.pdf (http://rcin.org.pl/iae/Content/27490/WA308_43037_P243_DATOWANIE-BEZWZGLEDN_I.pdf)

http://www.muzeum.bialystok.pl/muzeum/user...y_obrzedowe.pdf (http://www.muzeum.bialystok.pl/muzeum/userfiles/image/strona_glowna/wydawnictwa/archeologia/obiekty_obrzedowe.pdf)

It is probable that soon we will have some ancient DNA from the Iwno Culture (I don't expect it to turn out to be L617 - because this seems to be a rather rare lineage, but maybe they will belong to some other subclades of R1b-DF27):

http://m.torun.wyborcza.pl/torun/1,106521,...eRedirects=true (http://m.torun.wyborcza.pl/torun/1,106521,19127123,odkrycie-archeologow-analiza-dna-z-cmentarzyska.html?disableRedirects=true)


do you have TMRCA for the Iberian and the eastern branch ?
to which branch belongs the guy from Frankfurt ?

I will check. But I think that there is no information about this so far.

bicicleur
02-09-16, 07:56
do you have TMRCA for the Iberian and the eastern branch ?
to which branch belongs the guy from Frankfurt ?

Tomenable
02-09-16, 11:12
I think that R1b-L617 can be traced back to the Iwno Culture (which was one of Bell Beaker groups):

https://www.academia.edu/2022469/Northern_a...akers_in_Poland (https://www.academia.edu/2022469/Northern_and_Southern_Bell_Beakers_in_Poland)


https://www.academia.edu/2022466/The_Constr..._Central_Europe (https://www.academia.edu/2022466/The_Construction_of_Social_Structure_Bell_Beakers_ and_Trzciniec_Complex_in_North-Eastern_Part_of_Central_Europe)

https://www.academia.edu/2022462/Gesellscha...ichsel_und_Oder (https://www.academia.edu/2022462/Gesellschaftliche_Strukturen_der_Glockenbecherkult ur_im_Gebiet_zwischen_Weichsel_und_Oder)


https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/1...iak_323-330.pdf (https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/10593/9552/1/14_Autoreferaty_doktorskie_SPO%C5%81ECZNO%C5%9ACI% 20SUBNEOLITYCZNE%20NI%C5%BBU%20POLSKI_B_Jozwiak_32 3-330.pdf)


http://rcin.org.pl/iae/Content/27490/WA308...EZWZGLEDN_I.pdf (http://rcin.org.pl/iae/Content/27490/WA308_43037_P243_DATOWANIE-BEZWZGLEDN_I.pdf)


http://www.muzeum.bialystok.pl/muzeum/user...y_obrzedowe.pdf (http://www.muzeum.bialystok.pl/muzeum/userfiles/image/strona_glowna/wydawnictwa/archeologia/obiekty_obrzedowe.pdf)

Interestingly, it is probable that soon we will have some samples of ancient DNA from Iwno Culture (I don't expect it to turn out to be L617 - because this seems to be a very minor lineage - but maybe they will belong to some other subclades of R1b-DF27):

http://m.torun.wyborcza.pl/torun/1,106521,...eRedirects=true (http://m.torun.wyborcza.pl/torun/1,106521,19127123,odkrycie-archeologow-analiza-dna-z-cmentarzyska.html?disableRedirects=true)



do you have TMRCA for the Iberian and the eastern branch ?
to which branch belongs the guy from Frankfurt ?

I will check. But I think that there is no information about this so far.

Tomenable
02-09-16, 21:31
Bicicleur, I responded by editing the previous post because I couldn't post a new one in the morning.

So check my previous post again.

lyakh
04-09-16, 14:14
I also think that it is interesting to which branch of R1b-L617 belongs a man from Germany.
What if he is closely related to men from Lithuania with R1b-L617*?

It would be interesting if the lineage of OP would be autochtonous since few millennia.

hokiejane
11-12-17, 02:31
I'm expecting my Gilbert cousin's R-L617 results any day now. A member of the closely-related Martin line just got his in this past week, and is showing no matches on R-L617...which seems odd.

Jane