R1b DF27->Z2552->L617

Tomenable

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Location
Poland
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Polish
Y-DNA haplogroup
R1b-L617
mtDNA haplogroup
W6a
I just got my R1b SNP Pack results from FTDNA, and it says that I am L617:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617/

Based on 37 STR-s I was predicted to be L21, so it turned out to be wrong.

I guess it shows that it is better to order SNP Pack instead of more STR-s.

Anyway - coming back to L617 - what do we know about this subclade ???
 
I just got my R1b SNP Pack results from FTDNA, and it says that I am L617:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617/

Based on 37 STR-s I was predicted to be L21, so it turned out to be wrong.

I guess it shows that it is better to order SNP Pack instead of more STR-s.

Anyway - coming back to L617 - what do we know about this subclade ???

Interesting, I don't think Maciamo saying anything about R1b-DF27 anywhere near Poland. Are you sure you don't have any ancestors from Western Europe or South Germany ;). On the flips side, it's not unheard of to get R1b-DF27 in Poland so I'm not sure if it's just rare or more DNA to discover.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#DF27
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l617/about
 
I've joined the L617 Project.

Here is a map of distribution (my line is the one which goes back to year 1832 in Poland - Koźmin Wlkp.; there is another guy whose line goes back to 1855 in Lithuania - Šiauliai); that guy had a different surname, but both surnames sound Polish/Slavic:

L617_map.png
 
Are you sure you don't have any ancestors from Western Europe or South Germany

I have Meller ancestors (it is a Dutch/Low German surname) BUT they are on my mom's side.

Y-DNA comes from my dad's side (direct paternal ancestry) and here I don't have any Non-Polish ancestors. The surname is typically Polish without anything indicating foreign origin and has been like this at least since 1832 when my Y-ancestor lived in or around the town of Koźmin Wielkopolski.

The other Eastern L617 guy who lived in Lithuania in 1855 also had a Polish surname - Sobolewski. My ancestor had a different surname, but typically Polish and with "-ski" suffix / ending.

So no, I don't think that it is recent immigration.

Who knows, maybe it was the other way around - maybe L617 migrated from Eastern Europe to Western Europe in the Bronze Age, and "we" ("me" + "Sobolewski") stayed behind?

Or maybe it is of Celtic origin?
 
On the flips side, it's not unheard of to get R1b-DF27 in Poland so I'm not sure if it's just rare or more DNA to discover

DF27 as a whole is not so rare in Poland - around two percent IIRC (later I will check) - but L617 subclade is.

L617 is not just rare in Poland, it is in general rare anywhere - it seems.

British customers are overrepresented, probably that's why most of people in L617 Project are from Britain.
 
In Britain it seems to be concentrated in Southern England and Cornwall.
 
Interesting, I don't think Maciamo saying anything about R1b-DF27 anywhere near Poland. Are you sure you don't have any ancestors from Western Europe or South Germany ;). On the flips side, it's not unheard of to get R1b-DF27 in Poland so I'm not sure if it's just rare or more DNA to discover.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#DF27
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l617/about

There isn't a lot of DF27 outside western Europe. But since it has been found in the Caucasus and the Carpathians, there is a good chance that it already existed before R1b PIE left the Pontic Steppe.
 
1) Polish R1b according to Myres et al. 2010 (total: 18,35%):

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/suppinfo/ejhg2010146s1.html

U106 - 5,94%

P312 - 5,47% - including:

P312>U152 - 3,47%
DF27 & P312* - 1,01%
P312>L21 - 0,99%

L51>L11* - 0,5%
L51(xL11) - 0,5%

L23(xL51) - 5,44%
M269(xL23) - 0,5%

2) Polish R1b according to Peter Gwozdz (total: 12,5%):

http://www.gwozdz.org/Results.html

U106 - 4,5% - including:

U106>L48>L47>"P Type" - 1,2%
U106>L48>L47>other - 0,4%
U106>L48>Z9 - 1,2%
U106>L48>other - 0,5%
U106(xL48) - 1,2%

P312 - 4,5% - including:

U152>L2 - 1,7%
U152(xL2) - 0,4%
DF27>Z196 - 1,2%
DF27(xZ196) - 0,1%
L21 & P312* - 1,1%

Z2103 - 2,2% - including:

Z2103>Y5587("EE Type")>BY593 - 1,5%
Z2103>Y5587("EE Type")>other - 0,5%
Z2103>all other subclades - 0,2%

M269>other - 1,1%
L754(xM269) - 0,2%
 
So it seems that my subclade is less than 0,1%. Because it is not under DF27>Z196, but DF27(xZ196).
 
The other Easterner is basal L617* (he is the one listed by YFull as either id:YF04846 or id:YF04446):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617/

I might be basal L617* as well, and maybe if I order the Big Y, we will form a new subclade together.
 
There isn't a lot of DF27 outside western Europe. But since it has been found in the Caucasus and the Carpathians, there is a good chance that it already existed before R1b PIE left the Pontic Steppe.

Slime trail hypothesis :), well if that is the case it appears Kozmin was in the vicinity of the Eastern Unetice Culture just by comparing the two maps. Kozmin was occupied by the Unetice culture before being absorbed by the Trzciniec Culture in the late Bronze Age.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#early_middle_bronze_age
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koźmin_Wielkopolski
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture


In Britain it seems to be concentrated in Southern England and Cornwall.

I have Meller ancestors (it is a Dutch/Low German surname) BUT they are on my mom's side.

Y-DNA comes from my dad's side (direct paternal ancestry) and here I don't have any Non-Polish ancestors. The surname is typically Polish without anything indicating foreign origin and has been like this at least since 1832 when my Y-ancestor lived in or around the town of Koźmin Wielkopolski.

The other Eastern L617 guy who lived in Lithuania in 1855 also had a Polish surname - Sobolewski. My ancestor had a different surname, but typically Polish and with "-ski" suffix / ending.

So no, I don't think that it is recent immigration.

Who knows, maybe it was the other way around - maybe L617 migrated from Eastern Europe to Western Europe in the Bronze Age, and "we" ("me" + "Sobolewski") stayed behind?

Or maybe it is of Celtic origin?

On a side note, it's quite interesting that L617 is concentrated in Cornwall . Cornwall happens to be at least one of the hubs where Bronze Age Tin was mined.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Bronze_Age
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Cornwall_and_Devon
 
Just a working hypothesis to check, but it would be quite factible by being recent and historical, it's an origin from Spanish Jews after their expulsion from Spain.
 
Just a working hypothesis to check, but it would be quite factible by being recent and historical, it's an origin from Spanish Jews after their expulsion from Spain.

My Y-chromosome ancestors were Roman Catholics (at least as far back as 1832):

Walery K. born in 1904 in Koźmin; married Jadwiga M. and they settled in nearby Dobrzyca
parents: Franciscus K. and Ludovica B.

Franciscus K. born in 1871; married Ludovica B. in Roman Catholic parish of Koźmin in 1898
parents: Laurentius K. and Elisabeth G.

Laurentius K. born in 1832; married Elisabeth G. in Roman Catholic parish of Koźmin in 1857
parents: not listed by my online source

Now I have a few potential candidates for father of Laurentius, and I'm not yet 100% sure.

But I can easily determine this and then maybe I can get into the 1700s with my paper trail.
 
Berun,

Sephardic Jews were expelled from Iberia around year 1500, IIRC.

Your hypothesis would require a Spanish Jew to come to Poland between the 1500s and 1700s, convert to Roman Catholicism, and change his surname to a 100% Slavic Polish one without any signs of foreign origin - all before 1800. Sounds improbable.

But I ordered "Family Finder" as well - if some Jewish admixture shows up, then I will consider this.

Howver, I think that the presence of L617 in this region is much older than 1500 AD.
 
I have not so much knowledge about Sephardi history, but checking the Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews

there is a map with migrations after being expelled, reaching Poland in the XVII-XVIII century from their "hub" in Thessaloniki. For Polish Jews I know even less, but surely there would be cases of conversion by faith or cases more mundane (the Catholic Church demands that the offspring of a Catholic and a non-Catholic will be Catholic, so that if a Jewish falls in love with a Catholic woman, being so a 90% of the Polish women, if the woman refused to be Jewish or her parents refused that she would marry a Jewish the options left would be few).

By the way in your case I would check other marriages registered in such parish in the same year as to check if also are lacking parents.
 
It could also be some Frank nobility, or Frank servant following his noble master, who end up in Eastern Europe following Charlemagne and sons' conquest and alliance campaign. It could be sea traders. Viking slave trade. Diplomatic delegation send in the Middle Ages to Poland.

Anyway, there's 2 things to check when an unusual haplogroup show up.

1) Who are you closest matches, not in the project but in your match list. Email them and inquire what they know about their last known Y-ancestor. What are their surnames?

2) If your matches don't seem to lead to your area at the very least, it's time for the second question: Was there any Non Paternal Event? If you know a second or third cousin, even if just at Y12 to see if it fits.


Edit: Or it could be an English mariner who had a quick intercourse with a local girl, which gave her name to the baby since the father was unknown...

Edit: How likely is it for a women to give her name to a child in Poland?
 
1) Who are you closest matches, not in the project but in your match list

Two Chisholms from Scotland. But they might be "false matches", because they might be another subclade.

They did not buy SNP Packs so far, and are listed just as generic R1b-M269. They might be L21, not DF27:

https://s32.postimg.org/bbuanjamt/matches.png

matches.png


Email them and inquire what they know about their last known Y-ancestor.

They have their own Project and I joined it (but there is no any other confirmed L617 there):

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Chisholm/

It seems that STR-s are not very reliable - at least not at this resolution (37 STR markers).
 

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