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View Full Version : My map of haplogroup R1a in Greece & surroundings



Tomenable
03-09-16, 03:16
Here is my map of frequency of haplogroup R1a in Greece:

b.d. (grey area) = no data collected

(black dots = places where samples of people come from):

https://s31.postimg.org/jkt8tday3/R1a_in_Greece.jpg

https://s31.postimg.org/jkt8tday3/R1a_in_Greece.jpg

lyakh
03-09-16, 20:28
Interesting why there is a place with above 20% of R1a in a part of Crete. Above 20% of R1a in a part of central Greece is also interesting. Interesting is also how much I2a-L621 is in Greece and its surroundings (especially non-Slavic countries).

Boreas
03-09-16, 20:46
Interesting why there is a place with above 20% of R1a in a part of Crete. Above 20% of R1a in a part of central Greece is also interesting. Interesting is also how much I2a-L621 is in Greece and its surroundings (especially non-Slavic countries).


About Crete, maybe reason of people who settled there after Cretean Turks left the Island (Red Turks)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Crete_-_ethnic_map,_1861.jpg

Yetos
03-09-16, 21:52
I believe we would find more, at Central and North and N west Greece,

the hole case of R1a in Greece and some other areas like S Italy and S minor Asia is just the story of Dorian descent and Makedonian/ Argeiad start

search more the colonies of Dorians at S Italy like Locri and South of Smyrne,

Then you will see exactly that fits with from what Τριχακες ment,

I am expecting more than 25% in core of Central and North of continental Greece,

The strange is that you have too much in Thrace, I am expecting less there, about 12 %

Interesting would be to post the more deep kind of R1a


PS

lately i have found a book that contanis all the Slavic toponyms in Greece and are much,
as excpected I2 is stronger there, and more strange is that some are never mentioned in history as occupied or even raided by Slavs,
The straneg of R1a is that since Dorian, and follows all the Dorian way to Sparta, even at your map modern Sparta has less than expected.

PS2
As for Crete we know than Dorians occupied the West part of the island till White mountains,
it is clearly at your map the area, but seems later times that HG was pushed and limited to very south and mountains,
areas were not even Romans entered,


PS3

in fact the shape of R1a Hg expand in Greece,
SHOWS CLEARLY THAT R1a IS NOT A CLEAR MARK OF SLAVS, SINCE EXISTED MORE THAN 3500 IN BALKANS

Tomenable
03-09-16, 22:42
Here are frequencies of R1a in Sicily:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/fig_tab/ejhg2008120t1.html

https://i.snag.gy/vNHeRA.jpg
https://i.snag.gy/EHiGFa.jpg

Belmonde
25-10-16, 06:02
Many ancient authors wrote that the hinterland of Thessaloniki was most heavily settled by Slavs and that this was their main attempted target to capture. It makes sense to suggest that in ancient Greece there was more R1a-Z282 than Z93 as much as R1b-Z2103 was more than R1b-P312. It is unsuprising that only in Sicily Z93 is the most common branch. However, the branch in the rest of Italy and southern Greece is consistent. But in Greek Macedonia the ratio of M458:Z280 is 5:1, (Underhill 2009) the strangest ever found. Although in Italy there is M458-L260 from the Goths, there is no M458-L1029, which is the main branch in northern Greece, consistent with Bulgaria and Macedonia rather than southern Greece. L1029 is a very young subclade of M458, which originated in the distinction of Lechitic and Czech tribes, so it came with the Slavs. Z280 in south Greece must be either from the other Slav tribes (Scalvenes, not Antes), or probably from assimilated Thracians, because it does not make sense that it was brought from Anatolia by the Greco-Anatolians either. It is hard to find out why if Z93 is the most common branch in Sicily, then Z282 would be the one in ancient Greeks. A likely source is Byzantine Slavs for the elevated frequency in some regions of Sicily, or probably Normans.

Belmonde
25-10-16, 06:46
I am tempted to complete that map hoping that you don't hold any copyrights and I did it, don't worry I will delete it if you say so.

There is mine map of haplogroup R1a in Greece:
https://s13.postimg.org/h2vf3ztkn/R1a_in_Greece.jpg

https://s13.postimg.org/h2vf3ztkn/R1a_in_Greece.jpg

This is the map of the subclades of R1a
https://pp.vk.me/c412329/v412329003/6742/-ALhiG7WYe8.jpg

Hauteville
25-10-16, 09:55
Here are frequencies of R1a in Sicily:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/fig_tab/ejhg2008120t1.html

https://i.snag.gy/vNHeRA.jpg
https://i.snag.gy/EHiGFa.jpg
Meh this study is ten years old, these four are much more recent and accurate.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0050794

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/full/ejhg2015124a.html

Tomenable
27-11-16, 22:54
I am tempted to complete that map hoping that you don't hold any copyrights and I did it, don't worry I will delete it if you say so.

There is mine map of haplogroup R1a in Greece:
https://s13.postimg.org/h2vf3ztkn/R1a_in_Greece.jpg


I actually hold copy rights to that map, because I personally made that map. But I see that you have added some new interesting data. So let's make a deal, send me the statistical data that you used and I will send you my data that I had originally used. I guess that together we will make a better map. BTW, my total sample size for entire Greece was 1032 people including 125 R1a.

Do not delete it, you made a good job completing my map, just send me all of "raw data" that you used.


Meh this study is ten years old, these four are much more recent and accurate.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0050794

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/full/ejhg2015124a.html

Can you summarize what do these new studies say compared to the old one? What are the frequencies?

Tomenable
27-11-16, 23:05
Belmonde, I see that you actually changed the frequencies in some of sampling locations from my map.

On what basis did you make these changes? My map was based on 1032 Greek men from 22 locations.

Frequency for entire sample was 12,1% (125 men), a bit less than Greek average (16,3%) in this study:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008249a.html

Did you change the frequencies based on your own ideas, or based on some hard data?

But you also added some new sampling locations, including 2 in Creete. What are these?

Tomenable
27-11-16, 23:25
^^^ Based on that sample of 1032 Greeks, I also recently made these two things:

1) A PCA graph with convex hulls (there are two main clusters) and loadings biplot:

Red font shows two main haplogroups by area:

http://i.imgur.com/pbbyzjo.png

http://i.imgur.com/pbbyzjo.png

2) A map of clustering and two main haplogroups by area (based on data and PCA):

https://i.imgur.com/lJx60C5.png

https://i.imgur.com/lJx60C5.png

Belmonde
24-01-17, 21:30
Based on the data of 1100 Greeks from the Genographic Project here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin/page11 I updated the map
https://s27.postimg.org/fskqsoswj/R1_AGR.jpg

DuPidh
24-01-17, 23:39
I am tempted to complete that map hoping that you don't hold any copyrights and I did it, don't worry I will delete it if you say so.

There is mine map of haplogroup R1a in Greece:
https://s13.postimg.org/h2vf3ztkn/R1a_in_Greece.jpg

https://s13.postimg.org/h2vf3ztkn/R1a_in_Greece.jpg

This is the map of the subclades of R1a
https://pp.vk.me/c412329/v412329003/6742/-ALhiG7WYe8.jpg
If this map is accurate the calls "Macedonia is Greece" is bolloni. From the map looks like Macedonia is Bulgaria genetically at least.

DuPidh
24-01-17, 23:43
It looks like the R1a in Northern Albania, Bosnia, Southern Serbia is local version

DuPidh
24-01-17, 23:45
From the map of R1a it can not be said that R1a subclade in Europe is related to Slavs.

Sakattack
25-01-17, 02:17
I don't deny the genetic similarities of modern Macedonians (Greeks and Slavspeaking ones). The influence of the Slavs in the area after their arrival at 6th century AD, is well known and have changed dramatically the picture with their invasions + permanent settlements.

On the other hand, this map points out only the dominant R1a subclade, between modern pops and nothing more. Would be illogical if another R1a subclade was arithmetically superior to the Bulgarian derived one, in Greek Macedonia, so no surprises. It's a not stable generalization to state "Macedonia is genetically Bulgarian", because of this map. And if we add the current inhabitants of the Aegean Macedonia, it's a completely different conversation.

Just FYI, the genetic makeup of the Greek pops that inhabit the Aegean Macedonia now, is much much different. More than half of them, are 2nd, 3rd and 4th descendants of the Greek refugees that came at the 1920s from Asia Minor and during the pogroms + the population exchange.

Eventhough their genetic print is spread to the whole country (imagine that we are talking about 1,5 million people that have been added to only 4,5 million Helladic Greeks!), in Macedonia they made a bigger impact. This is because their majority were placed there for various reasons.

If you meet 10 random Greeks from Macedonian now, 8 of them would have at least a grandparent (many all of their 4), that came from Constantinople/Smyrna/Asia Minor shores/East Thrace/Cappadocia/Pontus.

Of course this is not possible to measured in such maps and tables, and these spreadsheets take in consideration only the 4grandparented Greek Macedonian from Macedonia, who of course is heavily Slav admixed.



Sent from my Robin

Dibran
26-01-17, 19:34
Haplogroup accounts for 2 percent DNA. Majority of which is autosomal and reflects genetic drift. Autosomal is a clear marker of ones genetic make up.

AntonDavidoff
02-05-19, 17:54
The Macedonians in Aegian Macedonia lived there long before Hellens settle the coastline areas, Modern Greeks genocided the endopi (original settlers) of what become north Greece last century.. Here is the simple truth: Antic Macedonians, Thracians, Illurians were all proto-slavic people with dominant I2a and R1a haplogroup , this same haplogroups even today go in pair in all of Eastern Europe..
The timeline is also very much prolonged and what is 2000 years is 1000y in actuality.
Macedonians which also knows as Slavo-Macedonians in Northern Greece and now in Macedonia (the Republic N. Macedonia) are the same people but because in the 1800' the concept of nationality was not popular within the people which before that only know themsefs as "nashi" (ours) they were subject to Bulgarization, Serbization which are closely related to and later forceful assimilation to Greek (simple murdering / or exodus) .. the previous macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and current president of Macedonia George Ivanov are both from Aegian Macedonian heritage that were expelled from Greek authority in early to mid 20th century, The picture of the people changed drastically after the Greeko Turshish war where huge number of Anatolian Greeks and other chirstina people were moved mostly to Aegian Macedonia , they are called Madzirs or Prosfiges (newcomers) this people now are calling macedonians bad names like monkey-donians etc..
The greek side claims that macedonians in ancient time were greeks / hellens but this is blatant lie, the only greek in them was the rulling class manners , and that was all , since greek / hellen was like english in those times
End.

RagnarofMacedon
10-05-19, 12:25
The Macedonians in Aegian Macedonia lived there long before Hellens settle the coastline areas, Modern Greeks genocided the endopi (original settlers) of what become north Greece last century.. Here is the simple truth: Antic Macedonians, Thracians, Illurians were all proto-slavic people with dominant I2a and R1a haplogroup , this same haplogroups even today go in pair in all of Eastern Europe..
The timeline is also very much prolonged and what is 2000 years is 1000y in actuality.
Macedonians which also knows as Slavo-Macedonians in Northern Greece and now in Macedonia (the Republic N. Macedonia) are the same people but because in the 1800' the concept of nationality was not popular within the people which before that only know themsefs as "nashi" (ours) they were subject to Bulgarization, Serbization which are closely related to and later forceful assimilation to Greek (simple murdering / or exodus) .. the previous macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and current president of Macedonia George Ivanov are both from Aegian Macedonian heritage that were expelled from Greek authority in early to mid 20th century, The picture of the people changed drastically after the Greeko Turshish war where huge number of Anatolian Greeks and other chirstina people were moved mostly to Aegian Macedonia , they are called Madzirs or Prosfiges (newcomers) this people now are calling macedonians bad names like monkey-donians etc..
The greek side claims that macedonians in ancient time were greeks / hellens but this is blatant lie, the only greek in them was the rulling class manners , and that was all , since greek / hellen was like english in those times
End.

Nice Conclusion , here is new lecture by Prof.Kenneth W.Harl about The World of early Macedon , you can check it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=4s

Johane Derite
10-05-19, 13:07
Nice Conclusion , here is new lecture by Prof.Kenneth W.Harl about The World of early Macedon , you can check it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=4s

"Macedonians/thracians/illyrians were all proto-slavs" is a good conclusion?

And I agree, Harl js a serious historian, but in the very lecture you shared he explicitly states that slavs have nothing to do with macedonians unless some assimilated locals.

RagnarofMacedon
11-05-19, 02:32
"Macedonians/thracians/illyrians were all proto-slavs" is a good conclusion?

And I agree, Harl js a serious historian, but in the very lecture you shared he explicitly states that slavs have nothing to do with macedonians unless some assimilated locals.

Lecture is connected about MACEDONIANS Are GREEKS nonsense i reading everywhere , its clear that nowdays noone is clear NATION, there were too many people on balkan coming , but we talking about fundamentals of one nation , fundamentals of North Macedonians are ancient Macedonians... We are all mixed more or less ,but about every thread and connection about Balkan countries and ethnicities most simialrs are Macedonians,Bulgarians,Albanians and Greeks thats one group, second is Serbians,Montenegrians,Bosnians,Croatians....
We share so much history , i dont believe sincerely that there come some "slavic" tribes,rulled and exterminated over most war-like people in Europe , Macedonians,thracians,Illyrians and Greeks...Only period on Balkans when there was Quiet and without wars was period between 1-4 century AD , but not they coming later ....Anyways more or less Greeks,Macedonians,Bulgarians even Albanians have so called "slavic" admixtures more or less but fundamentals of nations are different or simply said paleo-balkanic....
I dont considered Albanians different people than Macedonians , i have examples in my town they are all more or less most likely like Maceodnians (phisically characterists)...
Cheers...
"sincerely

mathewsalinas
20-08-19, 16:10
it’s hard to say whether this is true, people are moving, nations are getting in the way, maybe once, they could be called a pure nation

mathewsalinas
20-08-19, 16:10
such information makes me think, however

dosas
20-08-19, 20:18
Lots of unsubstantiated and baseless accusations against the Greek people in this thread, bordering on hate speech on racist grounds, on top of the same ad nauseum rhetoric about the 'proto-Slavic'-ness of the ancient Macedonian people.

Illyri
03-09-19, 11:19
[COLOR=#333333]Here is my map of frequency of haplogroup R1a

R1a_in_Greece.jpg[/IMG]

Very interesting thread.
Would you mind posting your maps again.
For some reason, it is not possible to see them anymore

Illyri
03-09-19, 11:24
[QUOTE=Belmonde;500136]Based on the data of 1100 Greeks from the Genographic Project...I updated the map

Would you mind posting your updated map again (or sending it by pm) ?

Illyri
03-09-19, 11:42
Many ancient authors wrote that the hinterland of Thessaloniki was most heavily settled by Slavs and that this was their main attempted target to capture. It makes sense to suggest that in ancient Greece there was more R1a-Z282 than Z93 as much as R1b-Z2103 was more than R1b-P312. It is unsuprising that only in Sicily Z93 is the most common branch. However, the branch in the rest of Italy and southern Greece is consistent. But in Greek Macedonia the ratio of M458:Z280 is 5:1, (Underhill 2009) the strangest ever found. Although in Italy there is M458-L260 from the Goths, there is no M458-L1029, which is the main branch in northern Greece, consistent with Bulgaria and Macedonia rather than southern Greece. L1029 is a very young subclade of M458, which originated in the distinction of Lechitic and Czech tribes, so it came with the Slavs. Z280 in south Greece must be either from the other Slav tribes (Scalvenes, not Antes), or probably from assimilated Thracians, because it does not make sense that it was brought from Anatolia by the Greco-Anatolians either. It is hard to find out why if Z93 is the most common branch in Sicily, then Z282 would be the one in ancient Greeks. A likely source is Byzantine Slavs for the elevated frequency in some regions of Sicily, or probably Normans.

Belonging to a subclade of R-Z280 and originating from South Albania, I am very interested by the origins of this subclade in the South Albania and Northern Greece. You write that it makes sense that in ancient Greece Z282 was more frequent than Z93 and that Z280 in south Greece could also be related to assimilated Thracians. Are these assumptions or there are scientific papers and/or ancient DNA to support them ? I might be wrong since I am a beginner with paleo-genetics, but I do not remember any Z280 ancient DNA found more South than Central Europe and the only R1a Ancient Thracian was R-Z93.

Dibran
03-09-19, 19:57
fffff

I don't see how L260 would be Gothic, or moreso any ways. Most of its descending branches are just as young as L1029, and its rarely anywhere in the Balkans outside of minority samples.

Also, there was a Alpine project with R1a-L1029 results found in a Italian from Lombardy, surname Serponte. Of course any scenarios exist for it's arrival but his Italian ancestor was born in 1400. Could have been from Austria, or German mercenaries in the later medieval era. I also have a L1029 match who has origin from France on the border with Spain(though they list Sweden on yfull). One from Spain as well on ftdna y12.

Just less than 2 years ago, I was the only Albanian in our project with L1029. Now we have discovered a decent amount in our project, including the Albanian haplotype of L1029 which has been found in several Albanian from studies, including 6 families now in the project, with our founder living 1200ypb(which I belong).

I imagine there are Haplotypes elsewhere yet to be discovered. Goths also assimilated Balts, Proto Slavs in their movements through East Europe. They surely absorbed some R1a from Balts and Slavs in their migrations as well. So, theoretically, we should see more basal R1a clusters popping up that could have moved before the Slavic migration minimally. Theres also Antes, which as early as 300-400AD were serving as guards of the Danube limes. They could have also carried some more.

YP417 for instance is more common in East Slavs, and East Balkans. YP515 is also more east Slavic and minimally represented. Then there is YP263 which is also found. Basal L1029 is less common outside of Central European Slavs, and East Germans. I turned out negative downstream L1029 and my Albanian haplotype splits L1029, either directly forming a new branch besides the others or splitting the ancestral clade upstream of YP263 (too unstable).

I do like this map very much though. Should make separate clade maps, and sub-clusters to see what that looks like by themselves.

RagnarofMacedon
08-09-19, 19:47
I believe we would find more, at Central and North and N west Greece,

the hole case of R1a in Greece and some other areas like S Italy and S minor Asia is just the story of Dorian descent and Makedonian/ Argeiad start

search more the colonies of Dorians at S Italy like Locri and South of Smyrne,

Then you will see exactly that fits with from what Τριχακες ment,

I am expecting more than 25% in core of Central and North of continental Greece,

The strange is that you have too much in Thrace, I am expecting less there, about 12 %

Interesting would be to post the more deep kind of R1a


PS

lately i have found a book that contanis all the Slavic toponyms in Greece and are much,
as excpected I2 is stronger there, and more strange is that some are never mentioned in history as occupied or even raided by Slavs,
The straneg of R1a is that since Dorian, and follows all the Dorian way to Sparta, even at your map modern Sparta has less than expected.

PS2
As for Crete we know than Dorians occupied the West part of the island till White mountains,
it is clearly at your map the area, but seems later times that HG was pushed and limited to very south and mountains,
areas were not even Romans entered,


PS3

in fact the shape of R1a Hg expand in Greece,
SHOWS CLEARLY THAT R1a IS NOT A CLEAR MARK OF SLAVS, SINCE EXISTED MORE THAN 3500 IN BALKANS



Borza;

[9] On the so called Dorian invasion: The theory of the Dorian invasion (based on Hdt. 9.26, followed by Thuc. I.12) is largely an invention of nineteenth-century historography, and is otherwise unsupported by either archeological or linguistic evidence."[10] "The Dorians are invisible archeologically."[11] "There is no archeological record of the Dorian movements, and the mythic arguments are largely conjectural, based on folk traditions about the Dorian home originally having been in northwest Greece.[12] "The explanation for the connection between the Dorians and the Macedonians may be more ingenious than convincing, resting uncomfortably on myth and conjecture."


Crete or KRIT - KRITI , its Pelasgo-Macedonian word in modern Macedonian language same word KRIT means HIDE or something to hide , so Zeus was hiding on CRETE from his father...
seCRETE

LABERIA
09-09-19, 07:45
Crete or KRIT - KRITI , its Pelasgo-Macedonian word in modern Macedonian language same word KRIT means HIDE or something to hide , so Zeus was hiding on CRETE from his father...
seCRETE
I like this, lol.

BTW, watch the video, is with subs in English:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXaCJ-5ERfA&t=139s
The State TV in FYROM - GOD IS A MACEDONIAN !!! Gospodari na efira show

Illyri
11-09-19, 22:30
I found this surprising map on this site :

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/middle_bronze_age_europe.jpg

Is there is any scientific/archeologic evidence of the Ancient Greeks and Macedonians (2000/1500 BC) being R1a tribes originating from Trzciniec Culture ?

Dibran
12-09-19, 16:10
I found this surprising map on this site :

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/middle_bronze_age_europe.jpg

Is there is any scientific/archeologic evidence of the Ancient Greeks and Macedonians (2000/1500 BC) being R1a tribes originating from Trzciniec Culture ?

Doubtful. The map is pretty old. If they were Trziniec they should be Z280/M458/I2a1b-Din. The only Balkan folk I think could have carried a variety of the aforementioned lineages would be the Late Iron Age Northern Dacians, who already theoretically bordered Balto-Slavs so a spillover could have occurred.

So far the only R1a in ancient Balkans was a Proto-Thracian who was Z93. Time will tell if ancient Balkan remains carry other varieties of R1a. However, even if they do, they would probably be more basal. For instance some of the Sardinian R1a was PF6155(pre-M458), PF7521(subclade of M458 which is ancestral to L1029 among others. Whilst they could just as easily spread with East Germanics, some could have moved earlier.

As for later subclades that are younger, I would say they would be less likely to carry. Time will tell though. It is very hard because many Northern derived lineages performed creamtion burials which make it problematic to find physical samples that happened to be buried.

Illyri
14-09-19, 17:42
Doubtful. The map is pretty old.

I agree. The map surprised me and it is why I asked whether there was some scientific/archeological ground to support it. The map could be old indeed. But If you look at "Haplogroup R1a" history (last update in 2018), there is also a chapter named "The greek branch" mentioning that the Mycenian culture is clearly a steppe imported one and that some archeological items show striking similarities with the Seima Turbino culture from the Russian Northern forest-steppes.

So far the only R1a in ancient Balkans was a Proto-Thracian who was Z93. Time will tell if ancient Balkan remains carry other varieties of R1a. However, even if they do, they would probably be more basal. For instance some of the Sardinian R1a was PF6155(pre-M458), PF7521(subclade of M458 which is ancestral to L1029 among others. Whilst they could just as easily spread with East Germanics, some could have moved earlier.

On the chronological level, I think it could work for R-M458* and R-Z280* and for their basal subclades (older than 4000 ybp). The pre-M458 R-PF6155 sample on yfull.com is not Sardinian (but from Como in Northern Italy). That being said, Sardinian R1a is a good example as it is quite diverse and certain subclades are ancient while others are younger:

- R-Z93* (TMRCA 4700 ybp)
- R-Z2123 > Y24669 (formed 3'900 ybp)
- R-M458 > PF7536 and R-Z29307 (TMRCA 4700 ybp)
- R-L1029 basal (formed 3'100 ybp)
- R-Z92 > Y13891* (TMRCA 2'900 ybp)
- R-CTS1211 > YP372* (TMRCA 1'800 ybp)
- R-2902 > Y1396 and Y1399 (formed 2400 ybp)

This diversity could be an indication of various migratory events bringing R1a on the island.

As for later subclades that are younger, I would say they would be less likely to carry. Time will tell though. It is very hard because many Northern derived lineages performed creamtion burials which make it problematic to find physical samples that happened to be buried.

Cremation - which is (by the way) performed in the Iliad for Patrocles and Achilles - could be a serious problem for ancient DNA finds.

RagnarofMacedon
14-09-19, 19:47
I like this, lol.

BTW, watch the video, is with subs in English:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXaCJ-5ERfA&t=139s
The State TV in FYROM - GOD IS A MACEDONIAN !!! Gospodari na efira show

11398

Please dont cheers Bulgars , turkic-nomads...I dont want to speaks about poolitics here , they r biggest thieves and clowns...