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View Full Version : R1a-YP254 and Poland - " the lineage of legendary Lech"?



lyakh
03-09-16, 21:38
R1a-YP254 appear to be very popular branch of R1a in Poland despite its young age (YFull gives TMRCA of about 2100 years). Many of R1a samples with DYS385=10-14 and DYS439=10 have YP254 mutation.

I suppose that about 20% of Poles have R1a-YP254. YP254 is heavily concentrated in what is today Poland. So there is a seed of truth in Polish legend abound Lech as a forefather of Poles :rolleyes2:

Four subclades of YP254 were found so far: YP414 (many of people from this lineage have also mutation YP610), Y2905 (which has at least three sublineages: R-Y23110, R-YP415, R-YP1364), Y4135 and YP5297.

Interestingly, two subfamilies of R-YP254 were found in Finland (one from Y2905 subclade and one from Y4135 subclade).

arvistro
04-09-16, 10:57
This Finnish - Polish connection is interesting.
I recently read an article on earliest Slavic loans in Finnic, and if memory does not fail me, they appeared of West Slavic type.

lyakh
04-09-16, 13:33
But YP254 is a young haplogroup and I suppose that individuals with "West Slavic" haplogroup L260 in Finland were associated with medieval Slavs, who may settle in Sweden before they appearance in Finland.
For me it looks more probably than these L260 bearers were not Slavic-speaking when they come to Finland and they adopt a Germanic language earlier.

There is also a lineage of R1a-L260+ YP256+ YP254- in Finland in FTDNA base (he shares mutation YP4517 (which makes another subbranch of YP256+) with an individual with roots in Slovakia).

Three lineages of "Lechitic" L260+ YP256+ in Finland give to think. One is YP256+ YP254+ Y2905+, second is YP256+ YP254+ Y4135+ YP870+, third is YP256+ Y4517+.

In FTDNA base I found also #203418 and #355598, who are from Finalnd belong to a subbranch of L1029 (another linage below M458, which is CTS11962+ L260-). Second of them has confirmed mutation L1029. Their branch is YP263- YP416- YP417- YP445- () and in FTDNA base they are mentioned with #191846 from Poland. Maybe another West Slavic lineage among Finns?

Norvila
06-09-16, 20:46
R1a-YP254 appear to be very popular branch of R1a in Poland despite its young age (YFull gives TMRCA of about 2100 years). Many of R1a samples with DYS385=10-14 and DYS439=10 have YP254 mutation.

I suppose that about 20% of Poles have R1a-YP254. YP254 is heavily concentrated in what is today Poland. So there is a seed of truth in Polish legend abound Lech as a forefather of Poles :rolleyes2:

Four subclades of YP254 were found so far: YP414 (many of people from this lineage have also mutation YP610), Y2905 (which has at least three sublineages: R-Y23110, R-YP415, R-YP1364), Y4135 and YP5297.

Interestingly, two subfamilies of R-YP254 were found in Finland (one from Y2905 subclade and one from Y4135 subclade).

Can I ask how you related R1a-YP254 to Lech?
Gediminas was N-L551 but it's extremely rare in Lithuania.

Norvila
06-09-16, 21:32
Interesting if there is a connection between Lech, Lechici, Licicaviki[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lechites#cite_note-9) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lechites
and
Leičiai (Leichiai) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lei%C4%8Diai
Leičiai (singular: leitis) were a distinct social group of the Lithuanian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanians) society in the early Grand Duchy of Lithuania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania) subordinate to the Lithuanian ruler or the state itself. Leičiai were native to the Lietuva Land (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Lithuania) and formed the core of the Lithuanian society in the pre-state era and during the establishment of the state (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lithuania_%281219%E2%80%9395%29).

Historically at least two Lithuania rulers were tied to Mazovia before Jogaila:

Duke Bolesław III arranged a new marriage for his daughter. On 18 June 1136, Richeza married a member of the Rurikid dynasty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurikid_dynasty), Volodar Glebovich (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Volodar_Glebovich&action=edit&redlink=1), Prince of Minsk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Minsk) and Hrodno (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrodno),[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richeza_of_Poland,_Queen_of_Sweden#cite_note-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richeza_of_Poland,_Queen_of_Sweden#cite_note-5)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richeza_of_Poland,_Queen_of_Sweden#cite_note-6) who at that time was in exile in the Polish court. The union was made in order to seal the alliance of Minsk and Poland against Denmark and the powerful Monomakh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_II_Monomakh) Kievan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev) dynasty. During this marriage, Richeza gave birth to three children: two sons, Vladimir (later Prince of Minsk) and Vasilko (Prince of Logoysk or Lahojsk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahojsk)), and a daughter, Sophia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_of_Minsk), born ca. 1139/40.
Volodar Glebovich was kind of saved by Litva from Novgorod.

Traidenis (Troiden) was married to Ana Mazovietska and his daughter Gaudemunda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaudemunda_of_Lithuania), married Bolesław II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boleslaus_II_of_Masovia), Duke of Masovia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Masovia), becoming Duchess of Masovia

Norvila
07-09-16, 11:38
Could it be Lech legend was written in political aspirations to disconnect Poland from unity with Hungary ?
The earliest Polish mention of Lech, Čech, and Rus is found in the Chronicle of Greater Poland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_Greater_Poland)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech,_Czech,_and_Rus#cite_note-5) written at the end of the 13th or the beginning of the 14th century.
It matches with Piasts reign end.

lyakh
08-09-16, 18:14
I do not think that the legend about Lech was written in political aspirations to disconnect Poland from unity with Hungary. Similarity of words "Lech", "Lędzianie" (Lendians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lendians)) and Leičiai, leitis is "just a coincidence". These words have different roots. ssociated with The words "Lech", "Lachy" (Lyakhy, Lyakhs) have an etymology associated with word "Lędzianie".


The name "Lędzianie" (*lęd-jan-inъ) was derived from Proto-Slavic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic) and Old-Polish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Polish_language) word "lęda" meaning "field". In modern Polish language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_language) the word "ląd" still exists, which means "land". The name of tribe Lędzianie comes from slash-and-burn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash-and-burn) agricultural technique which involved cutting and burning of forests or woodlands to create fields. Accordingly, in this meaning a Lendian was a farmer "wood burner".

Link to the page about the word "leitis" in Wiktionary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/leitis (there are informations about this word in Latvian language). Fragment about this word, which means a (male) Lithuanian in Latvian:


From *leit- (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Reconstruction:Latvian/leit-&action=edit&redlink=1) (related to Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language) lītus (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/litus#Latin) ‎(“sea coast, beach”) < *leitos (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/leitos&action=edit&redlink=1)), from Proto-Baltic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Baltic) *lei- (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Reconstruction:Proto-Balto-Slavic/lei-&action=edit&redlink=1), *lie- (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Reconstruction:Proto-Balto-Slavic/lie-&action=edit&redlink=1) with an extra -t, from Proto-Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) *ley- (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ley-&action=edit&redlink=1), *lī- (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/l%C4%AB-&action=edit&redlink=1) ‎(“to pour, to flow, to drip”). The stem was perhaps originally a reference to people from the "land of the rain" or "land of the rivers." It is also possible that there was an original river or lake name *Leitā (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Reconstruction:Latvian/Leit%C4%81&action=edit&redlink=1), from which *leitā-tyā (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Reconstruction:Latvian/leit%C4%81-ty%C4%81&action=edit&redlink=1), *leityā (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Reconstruction:Latvian/leity%C4%81&action=edit&redlink=1) > leiša (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lei%C5%A1a#Latvian), from which the nominative leitis (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/leitis#Latvian) could be derived.

lyakh
09-09-16, 11:43
YP256 lineages in Finalnd from FTDNA base for R1a project:

1. >Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254*-x2 [YP616-] (YP414 &/or Y4135 not tested, Big Y needed):

#315643 Ei tiedossa

2. >Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905*-A1 "Finnish" subcluster (another Big Y needed):

#283747 Reinhold Skur Back, b. 1856 and d .1928
#329354 Michel Michelsson Dalin,b 1744
#372176 Michel Dahlin b. 1771 Fi. d. 1826 Jurva Fi.
#329355 Michel Michelsson Dalin,b 1744

3. >Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP254>Y4135>YP870-A Finnish cluster (another Big Y needed)

#365950 Anders Andersson Balck b.1730, Tyrnävä,Finland
#301399 Juho Valpurinpoika Kukka b. 1850 d. 1935
#346450 Frans Wilhelm Nylund 1917-1964, Björneborg Finland
#188095 Johan Mårtensson,1721-1788,Mustasaari,Finland
#B2083 Lars Larsson Åby (Cammarbacka-Lassila, b. ca.1510)
#330192 Isaac Isaacsson b, 8.8.1788 Munsala, Vexala
#284773

4. >Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP256>YP654>YP4517

#358813 Viktor Vanhatalo s. 6.10.1871 Valkeala

lyakh
18-02-17, 20:29
It looks interesting if YP254 lineage had some impact on formation of Polish national identity.

Haplogroup R1a-YP254 is YOUNG. It is really common among Polish people despite its age.

YP254 probably is much less popular in Czech Republic and Slovakia than in Poland.

It is interesting if YP254 mutation occurred in what is today Poland or in other place (especially east of what is today Poland, for example in Dnieper basin).

It is thought-provoking that young lineage is so popular in quite large country in central part of the continent.