View Full Version : The "Big Picture" of Y-DNA distribution ca. 8000-5000 BC

04-09-16, 22:58
Here it is:

Dominant Y-DNA by region at the onset of the Neolithization of Europe:

Region: dominant "indigeneous" Y-DNA haplogroups

1. Western and Central Europe: I2a, I1, I2c, C1a2
2. European part of Russia: R1a, R1b, Q1a
3. Caucasus region (Georgia): J1b, J2a
4. Western Asia*: G2, E1, J2, R2, T, G1, H2, L1, F3

*Samples from Anatolia, from the Levant and from Iran.

The most mysterious - due to their scarcity in aDNA so far - are J1 and N1c. We have J1b in a hunter-gatherer from Georgia, but then there is a long "gap" and the next relevant sample - J1a dated to 2500-1950 BC - is from the Levant (Ain Ghazal, Early Bronze Age). When it comes to N1c the oldest sample in Europe, dated to 2500 BC, is from the region of Smolensk.

05-09-16, 00:00
Tomenable, the J2 in West Asia is also J2a? or is it both J2a and J2b?

05-09-16, 00:01
Tomenable, the J2 in West Asia is also J2a? or is it both J2a and J2b?

Both J2a and J2b.


BTW - I2a1a and I2a1b could be treated as two separate haplogroups, because:

I2a1a-L158 is 18300 years old - https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L158/
I2a1b-M423 is 18300 years old - https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-M423/

So I2a1a separated from I2a1b almost as long ago as R1a from R1b, for example.

And I2c-L596 is 21700 years old - https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L596/

05-09-16, 00:03
Is it possible to know which subclades of J2a or J2b were common in the Caucus and West Asia?

05-09-16, 01:00
I would do some changes to your list (I copy the list here):

1. Western and Central Europe: I2a, I2c, C1a2, C1b
2. Southeastern Europe / Anatolia: G2, I1, T1a, H2, L1a, I2c, R1b, C1a2
3. Scandinavia: I2a, I2c
4. European part of Russia: J1, R1a, R1b
5. Caucasus region (Georgia): J1b, J2a
6. Western Asia: R2, G1, J2
7. Africa / Levant: E1b

I will answer to your questions here:

C1b is found in Upper Paleolithic Europe samples.
Who confirmed I1 in Stora Forvär?
Who confirmed J1 extinction? Even if this J1 branch is extinct (unconfirmed), J1 surely largely contributed to the "atDNA EHG". I put J1 at first place because J1 looks most ancient in Eastern Europe than any R lineage. I think J1 inhabited eastern Europe before the R linages arrival. Remember R* is found in the Paleolithic Siberia.
There are samples from southeastern Europe like Kleitos and others belonging to the early Neolithic Europe which location of origin is still unknown.

05-09-16, 01:07
"ca. 8000-5000 BC"

Example: Remember that haplogroup T1a1 is found in Germany 7076 ± 90 and 7087 ± 725 YBP. This fits with the time frame.

05-09-16, 07:32

C1b is found in Upper Paleolithic Europe samples.

In Upper Paleolithic European Russia to be precise. Kostenki14 is from Russia.
But when it comes to Western and Central Europe, there is no any C1b there.

So if anything, I can add C1b to European Russian Y-DNA, as well as J1.

Southeastern Europe / Anatolia: (...) I1 (...) R1b (...)

There are no samples of R1b and I1 from Anatolia and no any evidence that they came from that region. Just because something was found in Neolithic Europe does not mean that it came from Anatolia, as it could be a local lineage absorbed/assimilated by farmers.

Southeastern Europe / Anatolia: (...) I2c (...) C1a2 (...)

These lineages were found in western Anatolia and in Europe, but they were more numerous in Europe (samples from Iberia for C1a2 and from Scandinavia and other places for I2c). That's why I consider them to be native to Europe. Their presence - in very small amount - among Anatolian ENF was due to gene flow from Europe (ca. 10-15% of WHG admixture).

Who confirmed I1 in Stora Forvär?

Genetiker was first to check this:


But other researchers confirm:


T1a1 is found in Germany 7076 ± 90 and 7087 ± 725 YBP. This fits with the time frame.

Yes, however:

1) This sample was found in an Early Neolithic context (early farmers)
2) So far no any T1a has been found in Pre-Neolithic context in Europe

This is why - unlike in case of I2c and C1a2 (both of which have been found in Pre-Neolithic samples frrom Europe) - I consider T1a to be native to West Asia, not Europe.

If something was found in Mesolithic Europe and then in Neolithic Europe (such as I1), then I consider it to be a European hunter-gatherer lineage absorbed by farmers.

05-09-16, 08:38
there was J in Karelia, but probably a minority in eastern Europe

but the same for I1, it was a minority in western and central Europe