Pigmentation of European Hunter Gatherers

Tomenable

Elite member
Messages
5,419
Reaction score
1,336
Points
113
Location
Poland
Ethnic group
Polish
Y-DNA haplogroup
R1b-L617
mtDNA haplogroup
W6a
Angela said:
some people haven't quite absorbed the fact that the WHG were darker than the farmers.

But the WHG lived in Western Europe. Eastern European EHG and Scandinavian SHG were much lighter.

Some people haven't quite absorbed the fact that Eastern Europe - and not Western Europe - was the "cradle of White people".

Also, the WHG contribution to modern European gene pool seems to be very limited, if we look at this:

https://s12.postimg.io/bszjn5fbx/sweeping_migrations.png

Grey component was present in Mesolithic Russia among the EHG, and later in the Pontic Steppe
Blue component was present in Mesolithic Western Europe among the WHG, and in Scandinavia

Bronze Age Europeans had much more of grey component (ultimately derived from the EHG). Also as a matter of fact the EHG and the later Steppe groups (Copper Age and Bronze Age) were generally lighter-pigmented than Anatolian farmers.

sweeping_migrations.png


So Northern European pigmentation does not come from Anatolia, but from those "Aryans" in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe.

Look at modern Sardinians or Sicilians - their moderately light pigmentation indeed comes from Anatolian farmers.

Some people apparently still haven't quite absorbed the fact that, originally, "White" = "Indo-European".

OK, OK, you are going to respond: "but the Yamnaya were still in fact quite swarthy!". Maybe they were.

But there were other Bronze Age Steppe groups, such as Srubnaya or Sintashta, who were much lighter.
 
But the WHG lived in Western Europe. Eastern European EHG and Scandinavian SHG were much lighter.

Some people haven't quite absorbed the fact that Eastern Europe - and not Western Europe - was the "cradle of White people".

Also, the WHG contribution to modern European gene pool seems to be very limited, if we look at this:

https://s12.postimg.io/bszjn5fbx/sweeping_migrations.png

Grey component was present in Mesolithic Russia among the EHG, and later in the Pontic Steppe
Blue component was present in Mesolithic Western Europe among the WHG, and in Scandinavia

Bronze Age Europeans had much more of grey component (ultimately derived from the EHG):

You're not reading as carefully as you once did, Tomenable. Flustered? I already said that the EHG and the SHG were lighter. Did you miss it?

Well, a good big chunk of that EHG and SHG is actually WHG, isn't it? Up to a half some claim, if not way more according to others. Same people, Tomenable, it's just that they got some skin lightening snps from the Caucasus and perhaps from the early Neolithic people in the Balkans. The climate in that inhospitable part of the world did the rest. They sure didn't get it from the Mal'ta types. Unless you think it was some de novo mutations, a type of parallel evolution, and they practiced some weird, horrific cult where they butchered the non-"white" infants? You know, sort of the reverse of the situation in Africa, where they murder the albino children.

Well, enough off-topic. Go back and read all the threads, Tomenable, many of which you yourself started. Make sure to look for the blonde, blue eyed, fair skinned totally Neolithic farmer people in central Europe, who were NOT R1b or R1a, and the pigmentation results for the Anatolian farmers and even Levant farmers, most of whom were neither R1b or R1a. Oh, check out Villabruna too; typically WHG pigmentation profile.

I think I've made my point, anyway.

I hope everyone has noticed that I was right as to the motivations. You've impeached yourself as an impartial analyst out of your own mouth. This post should be screen saved as proof of it. In fact, I will screen save it, just as I've screen saved lots of stuff over the years and put them into a cloud account.

You should be more careful, just in case you ever want to work anywhere else in the world. These are the kinds of statements that have put paid to other people's aspirations from your part of the world.
 
Same people, Tomenable, it's just that they got some skin lightening snps from the Caucasus and perhaps from the early Neolithic people in the Balkans. The climate in that inhospitable part of the world did the rest.

Source please, Angela. Have you missed this paper, in which they claim that lightening SNPs emerged in Europe?:

Felix M. Key et al., 2016: Human adaptation and population differentiation in the light of ancient genomes

Quote:

"(...) Adaptive alleles—especially those associated with pigmentation—are mostly of hunter-gatherer origin, although lactose persistence arose in a haplotype present in farmers. (...)"

Don't ask me how they determined this, but they looked at the "background" genes in which new mutations emerged. And they conclued that the "background" in which lightening mutations emerged was of WHG (or European HG in general) origin.

However, in Western Europe there was probably not enough of selective pressure promoting those new mutations.
 
It is explained here:

"(...) The derived allele upstream of OCA2 (rs12913832 in HERC2) is associated with blue iris colour in Europeans42 and light skin pigmentation43; both this variant and its linked variation show that Loschbour carried the predominant European haplotype (Fig. 6a). The derived allele in SLC45A2 non-synonymous rs16891982 is associated with lighter skin pigmentation and increased melanoma risk in Europeans44, 45. No ancestral genome carries rs16891982’s derived allele, but Loschbour carries the haplotype that, in present-day populations, is linked to the derived allele (Fig. 6b). Therefore hunter-gatherer populations likely contributed both OCA2 and SLC45A2 advantageous alleles to the European gene pool. This agrees well with these populations inhabiting northern European areas before the arrival of southern farmer groups. Lighter skin pigmentation has been proposed to be advantageous in northern latitudes to sustain vitamin D3 production in low-ultraviolet environments46. Blue iris colour may be advantageous to reduce the risk of seasonal affective disorder (also known as winter depression) in high latitudes47, increase sensitivity to glare48 or for sexual selection49. (...)"

Maybe France, Spain, Switzerland and Luxembourg - where the WHG lived - were not "cloudy and cold enough" to create selective pressure promoting lightening mutations? On the other hand, Russia and Sweden are less sunny environments.

And here about LP:

"(...) Another interesting target of positive selection in Europe is lactase persistence (LP)5, 50. It has been proposed that LP was introduced in Europe during the Neolithic transition and the introduction of farming culture51, 52. It is known that the two derived alleles associated with LP in Europe (in rs4988235 and rs182549)53 are absent in the two ancient genomes33 and are not observed in Europe until ~2300 BC in an individual of inferred steppe ancestry17. But the European tail includes a large number of alleles in the lactase enhancer region and the LP haplotype (chr2:135859371-136740900) that are exclusively present in Stuttgart (65% of Stuttgart specific targets; Fig. 6c). Thus the haplotype that is today associated with LP in Europe originated most likely in this genetic background, which we detect only in the Stuttgart farmer, although this individual itself did not carry the LP allele. (...)"
 
Oh please, give it a rest. This is getting tiring. Stop spamming papers and facts that don't prove what you claim they prove. It's just embarrassing, whether you know it or not. Everybody was a hunter gatherer once, remember? Were the WHG as black as Nigerians? No, they probably weren't, but when the farmers entered Europe, they were lighter than the WHG, and the Caucasus people were lighter too. It's just a fact. I've already explained the SHG and EHG, who are majority WHG.

Poles aren't the original "white" people who dropped out of a ship into eastern Europe, and the EHG weren't speaking PIE at the beginning of the Holocene, and R1a and R1b weren't hermetically sealed in eastern Europe. The people of Europe were sitting around scratching themselves as they huddled in their caves or yurts while civilization was starting its march in the Middle East. Like it or lump it, that's the reality of the situation, and it was the same for the steppe EHG before whoever it was that gave them Caucasus and EEF ancestry civilized them. An imperfect job, I agree.

Plus, even if you were correct, have you ever heard the phrase, "What have you done for me lately"?
 
But the WHG lived in Western Europe. Eastern European EHG and Scandinavian SHG were much lighter.

Some people haven't quite absorbed the fact that Eastern Europe - and not Western Europe - was the "cradle of White people".

Also, the WHG contribution to modern European gene pool seems to be very limited, if we look at this:

https://s12.postimg.io/bszjn5fbx/sweeping_migrations.png

Grey component was present in Mesolithic Russia among the EHG, and later in the Pontic Steppe
Blue component was present in Mesolithic Western Europe among the WHG, and in Scandinavia

Bronze Age Europeans had much more of grey component (ultimately derived from the EHG). Also as a matter of fact the EHG and the later Steppe groups (Copper Age and Bronze Age) were generally lighter-pigmented than Anatolian farmers.

sweeping_migrations.png


So Northern European pigmentation does not come from Anatolia, but from those "Aryans" in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe.

Look at modern Sardinians or Sicilians - their moderately light pigmentation indeed comes from Anatolian farmers.

Some people apparently still haven't quite absorbed the fact that, originally, "White" = "Indo-European".

OK, OK, you are going to respond: "but the Yamnaya were still in fact quite swarthy!". Maybe they were.

But there were other Bronze Age Steppe groups, such as Srubnaya or Sintashta, who were much lighter.

Oh please this is ridiculous, white people are only R1b and R1a??? So I'm now non white because I'm G. I'm 100% European based on my autosomal results.
 
Everybody was a hunter gatherer once, remember?

That paper is specifically about European hunter-gatherers. Don't pretend that you don't know it.

It is not about any types of hunter-gatherers living anywhere in the world.

Why are you so stubborn to prove that everything in Europe came from the Middle East?

Don't you identify as a European? Italians also have some WHG and EHG. Embrace your HG part too.

All Europeans are a mix of the same ancestral populations, only in different proportions.

That's why in PCA all Europeans cluster together and are away from North Africans or Middle Easterners.

Italians are also genetically closer to other Europeans than they are to present-day MENA populations.

The people of Europe were sitting around scratching themselves as they huddled in their caves or yurts

During some period of time, progress in the Middle East indeed tended to be faster.

However, progress did not start only with farming. It had started already in the Upper Paleolithic period.

And progress had been faster among northern hunters than among southern hunters:

https://unsafeharbour.wordpress.com/2012/01/06/the-origins-of-inequality/

Quote:

"(...) We all know that the early development in agriculture and civilization began in Eurasia - but it goes back much earlier than that. At a somewhat atemporal level, toolkits of hunter-gatherers have been shown to increase in size and complexity with latitude [larger and more complex toolkits in northern latitudes] (Oswalt, 1976) - the driving cause seeming to be the risk of resource failure (Collard et al., 2005). Developments necessary for cold, risk of resource failure… whatever the cause, Foley (1987) writes: 'although there is a general and global technological development during the Pleistocene, it is in high latitudes that it is most marked; in parts of the tropics the artefacts remained simple.' (...)"
 
That paper is specifically about European hunter-gatherers. Don't pretend that you don't know it.

It is not about any types of hunter-gatherers living anywhere in the world.

Why are you so stubborn to prove that everything in Europe came from the Middle East?

Don't you identify as a European? Italians also have some WHG and EHG. Embrace your HG part too.

All Europeans are a mix of the same ancestral populations, only in different proportions.

That's why in PCA all Europeans cluster together and are away from North Africans or Middle Easterners.

Italians are also genetically closer to other Europeans than they are to present-day MENA populations.



During some period of time, progress in the Middle East indeed tended to be faster.

However, progress did not start only with farming. It had started already in the Upper Paleolithic period.

And progress had been faster among northern hunters than among southern hunters:

https://unsafeharbour.wordpress.com/2012/01/06/the-origins-of-inequality/

Quote:

"(...) We all know that the early development in agriculture and civilization began in Eurasia - but it goes back much earlier than that. At a somewhat atemporal level, toolkits of hunter-gatherers have been shown to increase in size and complexity with latitude [larger and more complex toolkits in northern latitudes] (Oswalt, 1976) - the driving cause seeming to be the risk of resource failure (Collard et al., 2005). Developments necessary for cold, risk of resource failure… whatever the cause, Foley (1987) writes: 'although there is a general and global technological development during the Pleistocene, it is in high latitudes that it is most marked; in parts of the tropics the artefacts remained simple.' (...)"

Please answer my question, Am I non white because I'm in Haplogroup G?
 
Please answer my question, Am I non white because I'm in Haplogroup G?

Of course you are White*. Y chromosome is only ~2% of entire genome.

Autosomal DNA is transmitted mostly independently of your haplogroup.

*Actually, I prefer to use the"people of color" for Europeans. Because, you know, "Black" is not a real color - black is lack of color. When pigment in your skin absorbs all of sunlight, it creates an illusion of black shade. Europeans are the "true people of color", because we have the highest diversity of eye, hair and skin pigmentation in the world. Europe is already the most diverse and multicultural continent, even without any further enrichment from outside. We should send this message to the whole Third World: "look, it is you, 99% Muslim countries, who need enrichment, not us; your countries have big troubles, your people live for less than 2 dollars a day".

Maybe Europe is unique because it was such a melting pot of people from Anatolia, from the Steppe, etc. in the past?

Look at former colonies - they liberated themselves from "White oppressors", and now they are immigrating to countries of their former oppressors. Why are people from former French colonies immigrating to France? Do they want to get oppressed by evil Whites again? Or maybe - just maybe - they realized that they cannot govern themselves as efficiently as Europeans were able to?
 
Of course you are White. Y chromosome is only ~2% of entire genome.

Autosomal DNA is transmitted mostly independently of your haplogroup.

Ok thanks for answering my question. There are people out their who insist that haplogroups I, J, E ,N ,G, and T are non white.
 
Angela, when it comes to lightening mutations in Ancient North Eurasians:

They sure didn't get it from the Mal'ta types.

Why are you so sure about this, given that Genetiker found lightening mutations in Afontova Gora 2 sample?:

"
Pigmentation SNP genotypes for Mal’ta 1 and Afontova Gora 2":

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/201...np-genotypes-for-malta-1-and-afontova-gora-2/

Is Genetiker lying? He may be nuts, a weird guy, but nobody has ever proven that he lies about DNA results:

Below are all of the available genotypes from Mal’ta 1 and Afontova Gora 2 for the pigmentation SNPs included in the 8-plex and HIrisPlex systems.

Mal’ta 1 and Afontova Gora 2 both had two copies of the ancestral allele of rs1545397, which is used in the 8-plex system for the prediction of both skin color and eye color.

Mal’ta 1 and Afontova Gora 2 also both had two copies of the ancestral allele of rs1800407, the derived allele of which is associated with green or hazel eyes.

Mal’ta 1 had two copies of the ancestral allele of rs1426654, but Afontova Gora 2 had two copies of the derived allele. This SNP is located in the gene SLC24A5, and its derived allele is one of the two major Caucasoid depigmentation mutations. The other major Caucasoid depigmentation mutation is the derived allele of rs16891982, in the gene SLC45A2.

So we now know that Stora Förvar 11, who lived 7,500 years ago in Sweden, had the SLC45A2 mutation, and that Motala 12, who lived 8,000 years ago in Sweden, and Afontova Gora 2, who lived 17,000 years ago in Siberia, had the SLC24A5 mutation. This means that the simplistic picture that some people have been advancing of light-skinned farmers and dark-skinned hunter-gatherers is not correct.

This paper from last year dated the coalescence of the SLC24A5 mutation at 28,000–22,000 years ago, and this paper from 2012 estimated that the selective sweep for the SLC24A5 mutation started 19,000–11,000 years ago. These estimates are consistent with the Afontova Gora 2 finding.
 
Angela,

You continue to post things taken from some white racist, eastern European playbook

Sorry but racism was actually "invented" in Western Europe.

Moreover, racism requires power + prejudice, and Eastern Europe has no "power".

So we cannot be racist just like Blacks cannot be racist in the USA.

Or are you saying that Black Lives Matter is a racist movement ???

eastern European playbook

Which one - "unsafeharbour.wordpress.com" ??? It is clearly a Western website.
 
With the Holocene, there were numerous developments in many fields, including microliths, and they took place in the Near East. Farming developed there, and herding, and metallurgy, and cities, and literacy, all of the hallmarks of civilization.

Out of the things that you mentioned, microliths and metallurgy did not develop in the Middle East.

Microliths developed in more northerly areas, and the oldest evidence of metallurgy is from the Balkans.

Herding developed in several distinct areas - for example horses were domesticated in the Steppe.
 
It's a waste of time, because you have no interest in figuring out the truth.

Wow, simply wow!

I hear this from a person who has just claimed that all relevant haplogroups expanded from the Middle East, that all adaptive mutations emerged in the Middle East, that blonde hair and blue eyes came from the Middle East. Quote:

"Make sure to look for the blonde, blue eyed, fair skinned totally Neolithic farmer people in central Europe"

Did you already forget that >90% of the WHG were derived for blue eyes mutation?

Please note that you are not really talking about inventions or civilization, but about "race".

You are obsessed about making the Middle East the center of the universe. There is absolutely no evidence that derived adaptive mutations present in groups such as EHG, Afontova Gora 2 or SHG were of Middle Eastern origin.

But you cannot stand the notion that there was some continuity of settlement in Europe.

BTW - the Middle East has seen just as much of population replacemenst and sweeping migrations as Europe.

Modern Middle Easterners are not 100% identical as people who created civilization thousands of years ago.

Angela, maybe you should be a moderator at MENApedia, not Eupedia...
 
And Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have European admixture. They spoke Indo-European languages (such as Yiddish, Ladino, etc.) for centuries. Jews are more genetically European than even they want to admit. They are not "pure Neolithic Farmers".

Deal with it. Because your admiration of the Middle East seems to revolve largely around your numerous Jewish friends.

But these Jews are not as much Middle Eastern as you want them to be. Especially not culturally Middle Eastern.
 
And Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have European admixture. They spoke Indo-European languages (such as Yiddish, Ladino, etc.) for centuries. Jews are more genetically European than even they want to admit. They are not "pure Neolithic Farmers".

Deal with it. Because your admiration of the Middle East seems to revolve largely around your numerous Jewish friends.

But these Jews are not as much Middle Eastern as you want them to be. Especially not culturally Middle Eastern.
You still don't get it. Stop being so afraid of others and insecure of your own worth. Your writing reeks racism from miles away.
 
Last edited:
Your writing ricks racism from miles away.

Really? Because I claimed that some mutation originated in prehistoric Europe (based on non-trivial evidence)? Nowadays people use "racism" for "anything that doesn't fit my agenda", which is why racism has become a buzzword without any real meaning:

"Everything is racist and you have to point it all out" - as Anita Sarkeesian claimed:


I seriously don't even know what are we actually debating here. Angela and you just accused me of racism because I dared to claim that "something" originated in Europe, rather than everything originating in the Middle East as some people claim. This is just insane. And Angela also claimed that Central European farmers got their blue eyes from Anatolia, when we know that Anatolians had brown eyes and the WHG had blue eyes. So obviously in a group of mixed Anatolian-WHG ancestry, those blue eyes were inherited from the WHG.

You are surprised that more and more people in Europe vote right-wing, when they are just scared by Anti-European agendas that attack them from every side. The regressive left are responsible for the rise of the xenophobic right.

AfD just got 1/4 of votes in regional election in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.
 

This thread has been viewed 30767 times.

Back
Top