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bicicleur
09-09-16, 09:43
this is Roger Moens, world record holder 800 meter running 1955 - 1962

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Roger_Moens_1961.jpg

looking back at the past Olympic games in Rio, he says to much money is spilled in training sportsmen lacking the proper talent
and he claims talent is related with race

West-Africans dominate when explosivity is needed, like short sprints
White people dominate swimming which requires technique and power
East-Africans dominate with endurance in the marathon
Asiatic people dominate through self-control, equilibrium, souplesse and concentration

Furthermore there is this, concerning the East-African long distance runners :

Elite endurance runners[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_T-M184&action=edit&section=19)]Possible patterns between Y-chromosome and elite endurance runners were studied in an attempt to find a genetic explanation to the Ethiopian endurance running success. Given the superiority of East African athletes in international distance running over the past four decades, it has been speculated that they are genetically advantaged. Elite marathon runners from Ethiopia were analysed for K*(xP) which according to the previously published Ethiopian studies is attributable to the haplogroup T[290] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184#cite_note-Semino2002-294) and specifically to the T1a1a* (old T1a*) subclade, according to further studies.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184#cite_note-Mendez2011-4) T1a1a* was found to be proportionately more frequent in the elite marathon runners sample than in the control samples than any other haplogroup, therefore this y-chromosome could play a significant role in determining Ethiopian endurance running success. Haplogroup T1a1a* was found in 14% of the elite marathon runners sample of whom 43% of this sample are from Arsi province. In addition, haplogroup T1a1a* was found in only 4% of the Ethiopian control sample and only 1% of the Arsi province control sample. T1a1a* is positively associated with aspects of endurance running, whereas E1b1b1 (old E3b1) is negatively associated.[291] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184#cite_note-Moran2004-295)

Hauteville
09-09-16, 10:33
Mennea was a white faster than blacks ;)

bicicleur
09-09-16, 11:16
Mennea was a white faster than blacks ;)

That was an exception then.

I watched the quarter triathlon in Rio.
All white Europeans, no blacks.
Quite a contrast with the marathon which is also endurance.
But thriathlon also involves cycling and swimming, in which are very few blacks.
Race certainly plays a role. Human subclades seem to have specialised in certain disciplines.

Angela
09-09-16, 14:57
This reminds me of the stuff that used to be posted about why blacks or "non-whites" weren't good in tennis or golf. It never seemed to occur to people that those were "white people" sports because you had to have a certain level of affluence to have access to tennis courts and golf courses. For soccer all you need is a level field and a ball. American football and basketball don't require a big financial investment either. Then along came Arthur Ashe, the Williams sisters, Tiger Woods...

You think black people wouldn't be good bicyclists if they took it up?

That isn't to say that there might not be certain specific genetic advantages in certain groups. Does that mean others shouldn't compete? I don't think so. First of all, this is just talking about averages. In a large population where a certain gene isn't frequent, it could still exist.

Oh, the lack of access applies to swimming as well. This guy really thinks blacks can't master sports requiring technique and power? Really? By the way, in the U.S. blacks are starting to make their appearance.

http://www.usaswimming.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=2828

LeBrok
10-09-16, 03:15
Again, our human nature forces us to quick conclusions and segregation of races per skills. As Angela said, their are differences per races in sports, but not the way the first post alludes to. Take a deep breath and rethink your approach.

bicicleur
10-09-16, 04:19
Roger Moens also added he would be labelled racist for saying this.

At least he is right about that.

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1306/Olympische-Spelen/article/detail/2857998/2016/09/09/Ze-zullen-mij-een-racist-noemen-maar-het-zijn-gewoon-feiten.dhtml

bicicleur
10-09-16, 14:31
Angela,

I guess this is the best black cyclist for the moment

http://www.feltet.dk/octo_cms/files/Feltet.dk/Billeder/2015/Lob_2015/Criterium_du_Dauphine_2015/7_etape/Dauphine_2015_7_etape_Daniel_Teklehaimanot.jpg

he's Eritrean

is it true that cycling becomes more popular in America ?
the most famous American cyclist is still Lance Armstrong, but unfortunately, he won't be remembered for his sportivity

I am sure that for every sport at top level certain specific alleles are vital
but I don't think we'll know which ones within the next 10 years

and I wouldn't call Roger Moens a racist

how do you explain the dominance of T1a1a amongst endurance runners?
T1a1a are a minority in the area where those endurance runners come from

bicicleur
10-09-16, 15:16
oh, and a special phenomenom in cycling are the Colombian 'pocket climbers'

http://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2015/01/WATSON_00004029-010-630x420.jpg

small lightweight cylists from Colombia

through their light weight they are very strong in uphill climbing and win certain races with arrival on top of a mountain
but in the downhill or on the flat they lack the strength and body to maintain their lead

in cycling the favorites are different for every race
much depends on the terrain or even on the wheather

whether you are able to win a certain race or not depends on very small details

Angela
10-09-16, 17:32
I haven't noticed a huge increase in cycling as a sport in America, but that would be a more west coast kind of thing if it's happening, and so I wouldn't be aware of it, necessarily. People certainly go biking for fun around me, but in terms of sports participation it's tennis, golf, swimming, sailing, skiing, that sort of thing. Also, despite the fact that American football draws more viewers, women and men both play softball or baseball. Sometimes there are teams set up by a certain company, and sometimes people just find each other. My husband is in one, and he's addicted to racket ball and hand ball lately. There are usually courts for the latter at large gyms. A lot of people go jogging too. You have to be very careful how you drive in my neighborhood.

This cyclist got into trouble because he's vastly exaggerating what we know, in my opinion. I agree with you that at the very top of certain sports certain alleles might be essential. We don't know what they are, however. Plus, the fact that they are more prevalent in certain groups doesn't mean they're non-existent elsewhere. Then, as you say, there are so many variables. Maybe the next guy has a certain allele you don't have, but maybe he doesn't train as much as you do.

As to T1a1a, I don't know the significance of that. It certainly can't be down to the y chromosome itself, can it? It may just be some mutation that arose in a population where there is a lot of T1a1a.

It's just terribly simplistic to draw these kinds of conclusions.

Also, what's the point? Is it an excuse for not beating certain people?

That comment about the swimming and black people did indeed smack of racism to me even if he didn't mean it that way. It's so clear that a lot of black people don't have access to Olympic size pools, etc. and just what on earth did he mean by saying that it needs "technique"? They don't already excel in sports that require technique?

Sometimes I think sports people, like actors etc. should just limit how much they speak publicly on certain subjects. With actors, of course, they're usually spouting left wing politics. I wouldn't deprive anybody of their free speech rights by penalizing them, however.

bicicleur
10-09-16, 18:11
I'm sure certain specific alleles are vital for top sporters.
But natural selection doesn't play. You can survive and reproduce yourself without being a top level sportsman.
Except if those alleles were important for survival in the past and now come in handy for the sport. As might be the case of those Colombian pocket climbers, and also for those East-African endurance runners.
Why endurance runners from East-Africa andsprinters from West-Africa? There aren't any extra facilities in East Africa ..
And American Blacks, I suppose they are of West-African descend.

Angela
10-09-16, 19:39
I'm sure certain specific alleles are vital for top sporters.
But natural selection doesn't play. You can survive and reproduce yourself without being a top level sportsman.
Except if those alleles were important for survival in the past and now come in handy for the sport. As might be the case of those Colombian pocket climbers, and also for those East-African endurance runners.
Why endurance runners from East-Africa andsprinters from West-Africa? There aren't any extra facilities in East Africa ..
And American Blacks, I suppose they are of West-African descend.

Bicicleur, what facilities do you need for long distance running? :)

I don't know why it might have been selected for in East Africa. Was that the way they hunted some of their game? Were messages carried by long distance runners? I always thought that some people from Peru and other Inca dominated areas might carry some useful alleles for long distance running.

See the following interesting article about the Inca "mailmen".

http://www.messagetoeagle.com/inca-communication-mailmen-of-the-inca-empire-were-fast-roadrunners/

Some African-Americans have some East African ancestry, but not very much from what I've read. The East African came by way of the slave trade run by the Portuguese in places like Madagascar. Some South Asians also got caught up in it, which explains some strange trace elements that show up in some of them, including a friend of mine from the Caribbean. The French brought some of these slaves to the Caribbean, as did the Dutch, and some went to Brazil. A small percentage seem to have made it to the continental U.S., but the majority of the slaves seem to have come from West Africa.

https://www.britainfirst.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/slavery3.jpg

bicicleur
10-09-16, 22:00
first guess for long distance runners would be hunters running after their prey
but I don't think so
the T1a1a were probably herders, they were not the original HG in East Africa

I believe there remains a lot to be discoverd about DNA, this research won't stop
sometimes it seems progress goes slow, but if you look how much we know more since the last 2-3 years .. it's quite exciting

MOESAN
15-09-16, 16:13
Here I cannot resist to the desire to put my word, because it's a matter where I have opinions since a long time. I changed a bit my first personal conclusiosn, evidently. Nevertheless:
- sports best performances of a population, helped or not by science and training, are not completely the marker of the health and the physical surviving capacities of this precise population: plus: records are based upon the faster, higher, heavier, stronger, longer performances of a reduced sample of pop, they don't reflect the pop mean value
- it's obvious sports skills are linked to genetic heredity, separately in some way; as everything concerning potential
- it's obvious too that number, good or bad selection (detection of "talents"), social class, economical level have a strong inpit in records results - concerning social class I think in sport champions because high level here can lead to mechanization and less physical activity and loss of potential relaization for the average pop
Sorry, I have not red acutely every post, but I think Angela and some other one have pointed to the inaccuracy of some opinions concerning certain sports where "blacks" or other "non-white" people are supposed to be less skilled: surely some cultural and genetical mental differences exist, very hard to weight precisely, but the social/economical conditions are of high importance: You 'll find more migrants from poor countries in professional sports like boxing, glad to take "bunches of five" in the middle of their faces, than the gentry boys, you'll find more of these last ones in sports as auto racing or golf, whatever the few exceptions of today.
- that said so called racists can also think other "races" than "whites" or Europeans are better in some specialities; it's not racism for me, and they have it only partly wrong sometimes.
A study had been made by Swedish scientist some years ago, about Swedish and Kenyan high distances runners: these last ones the best ones as a mean; and they found that the legs (thighs too be precise) of the Kenyans runners were better irrigated for blood than the europoid Swedish runners I underline the word "runner" to evocate my lines below; here again: is this blood flowing question linked only to training (since childhood for Kenyans) or only to genetic heritage?
&: I think the Y-haplo subclades have very slight importance here if any; the way to choose samples is very important and a lot of studies have been biased for that: you have to compare also people of the same ethny within them and not only a pannel of champions with a pannel of other people of the same "country", and you have to take in accont the way-of-life of the diverse samples, ethny or not. If an ethny where we can find more of a certain Haplo is also the ethny with a way-of-life which supports better pferformances, the comparisons are biased, this haplo will be considered as linked to performances even if it is wrong. I hope the scientists in question have not worked like French Jacobine Centralists!
SOrry for being a bit long.

MOESAN
15-09-16, 16:21
I point here my porper lacks or biases: I forgot to say that training (acquired skills) imposed by way-of-life (and surviving!) can go along with genetic selection (inherited skills) imposed by the same factors.