PDA

View Full Version : England would have seen a lot of people coming in



MOESAN
22-09-16, 11:25
A metric survey of an American searcher Lauren brittany JONES (easy to google) about 5 periods in diverse places of England shows differences:

ACraniometric Analysis of English Skeletal Samples:Change andContinuity between the Iron Age and Post-Medieval time periods (400BCE-1850 CE). (Under the direction of Dr. D. Troy Case and Dr. Ann H.Ross)

studied: Iron-Age, Romano-Britton, Anglo-Saxon, Middle-Age, last Middle-Age;
short:
- more dolichocrane, closer between them: IA and AS
- more brachy, farthest from all: MA
- more central: RB
some adaptative (+ genetic): nose height): the authors makes relations with climate here
She says Normans had an heavier input that believed before but pounders it saying that the urban sites could bias the results in this very matter (rulers friends denser in towns);

VII.CONCLUSIONS AND FUTURE DIRECTIONS
7.1Conclusions :The results from this study reject the hypothesis thatthere are no significantcraniometric differences between andamong English samples of Iron Age, Romano-British,Anglo-Saxon,medieval, and post-medieval time periods. Instead, data from thisstudy indicate that all five time periods are characterized bysignificantly different craniometric patterns.The most similar samples are the Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon, whichillustrate a relatively high degree of cranial continuity despitea lack of temporal continuity. The medieval period is the mostdisparate, which signifies a significant shift in geneticand environmental influences on the sample. The influx of the Frenchand other continental groups beginning with the Norman invasion in the11th century is likely the origin of this variation. Centuries ofextreme cold and subsequent illnesses would have also affectedthe populationsof medieval England, which are mirrored in cranio facial traits. Thesample from the post-medieval period is the most similar to theRomano-British and medieval groups, signifying a great amount ofheterogeneity in the populace. The outcomes of this studyareable to answer the research questions posed at the beginningof analysis. The Norman Conquest did bring widespread craniometricchange to England, and much of the variation in modern Englishpopulations is related to the Romano-British and medievalpopulations.

She evocates the case of the possibe opposition country/towns for Normans and followers but does not concerning the possible biases for IA and AS (elites?)

Angela
22-09-16, 16:20
A metric survey of an American searcher Lauren brittany JONES (easy to google) about 5 periods in diverse places of England shows differences:

ACraniometric Analysis of English Skeletal Samples:Change andContinuity between the Iron Age and Post-Medieval time periods (400BCE-1850 CE). (Under the direction of Dr. D. Troy Case and Dr. Ann H.Ross)

studied: Iron-Age, Romano-Britton, Anglo-Saxon, Middle-Age, last Middle-Age;
short:
- more dolichocrane, closer between them: IA and AS
- more brachy, farthest from all: MA
- more central: RB
some adaptative (+ genetic): nose height): the authors makes relations with climate here
She says Normans had an heavier input that believed before but pounders it saying that the urban sites could bias the results in this very matter (rulers friends denser in towns);

VII.CONCLUSIONS AND FUTURE DIRECTIONS
7.1Conclusions :The results from this study reject the hypothesis thatthere are no significantcraniometric differences between andamong English samples of Iron Age, Romano-British,Anglo-Saxon,medieval, and post-medieval time periods. Instead, data from thisstudy indicate that all five time periods are characterized bysignificantly different craniometric patterns.The most similar samples are the Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon, whichillustrate a relatively high degree of cranial continuity despitea lack of temporal continuity. The medieval period is the mostdisparate, which signifies a significant shift in geneticand environmental influences on the sample. The influx of the Frenchand other continental groups beginning with the Norman invasion in the11th century is likely the origin of this variation. Centuries ofextreme cold and subsequent illnesses would have also affectedthe populationsof medieval England, which are mirrored in cranio facial traits. Thesample from the post-medieval period is the most similar to theRomano-British and medieval groups, signifying a great amount ofheterogeneity in the populace. The outcomes of this studyareable to answer the research questions posed at the beginningof analysis. The Norman Conquest did bring widespread craniometricchange to England, and much of the variation in modern Englishpopulations is related to the Romano-British and medievalpopulations.

She evocates the case of the possibe opposition country/towns for Normans and followers but does not concerning the possible biases for IA and AS (elites?)


This is very interesting. It might explain the "southern" shift in modern England in comparison to the ancient Rathlin samples which was noticed by all the "modelers".

I said at the time that the number of people who went to England not only with the Conqueror, but with all the subsequent French queens, and from the domains in France owned by the Plantagenet kings might have had an impact.

MOESAN
22-09-16, 18:40
@Angela: you were right then.
Forumers and bloggers remarked modern "Celts" whatever their mix, seem a bit more "northern" than English people not in the 'nordic' type sense but in the mesolithic heritage, they seem even more 'steppic' (except the Welsh maybe?).
That said I 'll have to see if there are details about geographic places because I'm sure te inputs of "Frenchies" has not been the same ones in diverse regions - same question for previous periods concerning Celts, Romans, Saxons, Vikings ... - and the results of the survey could be biased in some places (as said by the author herself). Good digging!

MOESAN
22-09-16, 18:54
It reminds me I red (Coon's report?) that French frome the Middle Age Aquitaine (not all of them the cousins of Basques!) were displaced to Bath Region in Somerset, I forgot the precise date. What is interesting is that this Bath sourroundings were the less dolichocephalic of England and you know French regions as a mean are more brachycephalic than the Isles.
&: (Isles: (74,)76, to 79,(80,) means 78, in the 1930/40's >< France (73,)78, to 87,(88,) mean 83, Gascogne to Poitou: most between 82, and 84,
between(): exceptional subregional means. These CI are modern but they come from before in some way.

MOESAN
25-09-16, 20:56
I red again old notes I took long enough time ago, when I was not trying to note the authors or surveys names, taking only in account the (maybe) informative pertinent facts or allegations.
I red eastern "Brittons" in Britain were broader and shorter bodied than other Brittons in the Isles; as Gauls!: confirmation of a Gallians or Belgae origins? other facts not without weight: I red their economy was more agriculture oriented and less herding oriented than the other Brittons; the Y-R1b-U152/S28 is heavier there than in other parts of Britain and Ireland and the %s are over what could have been provided by Romans and Germanics settlements, what does not exclude some U152 from these last ones; but I have still no detailed subclades still distributions for the Isles to date. This concerns too N-E Britain (E-Scotland). I believe also that some seldom Celtic settlements in East Britain could have been linked to Celtic Switzerland and Alps for artefacts and maybe name.
&: apart: I personally link U152 to a subsequent vague of Celts, ancient P312 of East, stayed in long time contacts with Ligurians and also Italics (rather the P- ones); their expansion could have begun even earlier than Hallstatt, perhaps Urnfield times. Not Germanic at all at first; R1b in proto-Germanics was already dominated by U106 (S-Baltic Sea shores origin) + some rare "out of way" other P312 descendants, some akin to the "iberiano-basque" R1b clade. Just old remembrance, to weight some affirmations too extremist: "all same Celts", "NO true Celt" ...

MOESAN
07-10-16, 12:20
We can see the 'ancient DNA' thread about English people confirms the hypothesis about middle and late Moyen-Age arrivals principally in Southern England, coming from France for the most. Aquitain people of the time occupied large territories and it is not sure they were all akin to ancient Aquitanians/Gwasconians or proto-Basque; all the way these "autochtones" were heavy enough for WHG, not for the 'Steppic medley'; and other Central-Western French people were I think less WHG and less 'Steppes' and more EEF; but I don't exclude a Roman strong enough input in S-E England: not only Roman gentry, which not so far from Celts but their conquired Mediterranean provinces.
&: when I look at statures, even taking the mesologic action in account, I cannot pass withtout to think that WHG of W-Europe and N-W Europe were of middle statures or even short statures (Mugem, Armorica, spite very few 'med' input): it' s always the case in Portugal (except N-E and extreme S) and Brittany (except shores); so the high statures of today N-Europe people even in the regions where 'nordic' type is not dominant and 'dinaric' very seldom, push me to think that a lot of the HG input there is of 'steppic' or N-E Europe geographic origin; curiously the "archaic" elements in South and North show as a whole the same mix of head and body features spite the huge differences in stature; I always said they were a mix of 'cromagnoids' and roughly said 'brünnoids' types, whatever their Y-haplos. This reduction in stature in West would deserve special attention for the mesologic aspect. Wales seems in a between situation for stature, so its HG's could be of 2 geographic origins??? Just hypothesis because stature is one of the less stable thing in phenotypes, being under a lot of different types of selection pressures. Body internal proportions, spite being also under selection, evolve less quickly than absolute dimensions.

Northener
17-10-16, 20:26
Strange how does this correspondence with up to 40% Anglo-Saxon (=Northwestern Europe) DNA in the current Englishman?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3711040/How-British-Genetic-study-reveals-Yorkshire-Anglo-Saxon-UK-East-Midlands-Scandinavian.html