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Angela
27-09-16, 16:36
See:
http://time.com/4488711/indiana-fertility-doctor-cline-own-sperm/

He claims that he was having a hard time getting donors, so, hey what the heck, why not use my own?

Is it because I'm a woman that I really don't get this? Did he give not a single thought to the children who would be born? It didn't bother him that he had 50 children out there who might get in trouble, need help? What if, all living in the same area, they met, fell in love, married? Did he give no thought to the tragedies that might ensue?

The hubris involved is incredible too. Talk about having a high opinion of yourself.

All of this came to light when nine people who tested with 23andme suddenly found all these half-siblings. I guess it's one of the unanticipated consequences of these kinds of tests. It's a lot harder to hide infidelity, too, if it leads to a child.

bicicleur
27-09-16, 17:32
I've heard this story before. He wasn't the first doctor to do so.
I'm sure he wasn't thinking much about all this while producing the sperm, but maybe he should have just kept it in the tubes.

LeBrok
27-09-16, 18:52
Is it because I'm a woman that I really don't get this? Did he give not a single thought to the children who would be born? It didn't bother him that he had 50 children out there who might get in trouble, need help? What if, all living in the same area, they met, fell in love, married? Did he give no thought to the tragedies that might ensue?

.It is an attractive idea to some people to have as many children as possible. Modern Genghis Khan.

Angela
27-09-16, 19:14
Yes, well, his hubris and lack of forethought
and selfishness may have.caused an awful
lot of pain to others.

I guess I'm also just amazed how disconnected
some men can be from their biological children.
A sperm donor is indeed not a father.

Maciamo
27-09-16, 20:18
Yes, well, his hubris and lack of forethought
and selfishness may have.caused an awful
lot of pain to others.

I guess I'm also just amazed how disconnected
some men can be from their biological children.
A sperm donor is indeed not a father.

I imagine that this kind of situation might easily happen in France, where the law prohibit fertility centres to communicate any kind of information on the donor, for the sake of complete anonymity. It's very different from most English-speaking countries where prospective parents can choose their donors à la carte based on looks, personality, IQ, academic and professional achievements... In France they can only reveal the ethnicity, hair and eye colour. Likewise donors in France are never told if their sperm has been used, and even less the number of children they potentially fathered. Add to this that DNA tests (including paternity tests) are prohibited by law (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28844-The-Dark-Side-of-France) and you have the perfect cocktail for abuse like this. For all we know French fertility centres could be places where doctors or other male staff are the exclusive donors for all medically assisted procreations. There is no legal way to know. The legal system (complete sperm donor anonymity + prohibition of paternity tests) seems to be designed with the only purpose to protect this kind of abuses.

To my knowledge, France is also the only country where women can be jailed for having babies out of wedlock or out of a proven heterosexual relationship, and men can also be imprisoned for donating sperms to a woman who wants a child. Why do they go to such lengths to force people to go through the official fertility centres if the system can be so easily abused? Cynics might think that some politicians passed those laws so that they could pay fertility centres to use their sperm to father hundreds of children without anybody ever knowing about it. If anybody had wanted to do it there couldn't be a better legal framework to support it. Why else would France be the only country in the world to prohibit DNA tests and prosecute sperm donations between non-heterosexual couples? The country of the Declaration of Human Rights, huh? Yeah right.

Volat
27-09-16, 20:27
Angela!

Reading your post I thought it must have happened in the USA. I clicked on the URL to read the article. The story is from the USA. American doctors are dishonest and greedy. Many of them are brilliant. But still greedy. That's my opinion.

Angela
27-09-16, 22:18
Have you had a lot of experience with American doctors? I have, and many of my friends, and more than a few family members, moreover, are doctors, and that hasn't been my experience on the whole.

Not that some aren't greedy, of course. Human beings are human beings, regardless of country, gender, race, you name it, and therefore, in my opinion, innately flawed. Certain specialties, like dermatology, in my opinion, attract them, although I don't want to defame all dermatologists.

Anyway, I don't think greed had anything to do with it. I looked it up, and the going rate for donors is $50.00 per "specimen", which is even lower than I thought. Each office visit for these kinds of specialists can be 200+, and you go for multiple, multiple, visits. It's just ego and lack of forethought.

True story, a little risque, but heck, we're all adults here. About twenty-five years ago a friend of mine, Italian-American and married to a very Mediterranean looking Italian-American, went to see a famous fertility specialist, a Norwegian, as a matter of fact. He couldn't find anything wrong, so he told her that sometimes what doesn't work with one man might work with another. He offered his services. Prettier words, but that was the general idea. :) My friend asked him how he thought she'd explain a white-blonde, blue-eyed child to her husband. I mean, would he really buy the whole recessive genes bit? The unmitigated ego and gall of the man. She never went back, but it was quite an experience. Since then, nurses have to be present during exam, although they're not present during the office part of the visit. It's an object lesson in another way; if you believe doctors don't notice what you look like without your clothes on, you're deluding yourself. Knowing that makes going to them rather awkward, but there it is.

@Maciamo,
Women can specify what they want in terms of characteristics here too, including ethnicity, looks, sports oriented, college educated or not, etc., but it's all anonymous. I don't know of any country where it isn't anonymous. That would be a real disaster. Usually, from what I understand, it is medical school students who do it for extra cash. It doesn't matter if the doctor really wants to do something unethical, however. He just doesn't tell the infertile couple that it's his sperm. He tells them it's from donor X, who is anonymous. It's just not ethical. They should have had the choice even if it meant they had to wait a while for the "right" donor. Plus, you can't have so many half-siblings running around in the same area.

As for paternity tests, it doesn't arise in these situations. In the vast number of cases the couple comes in as a couple. They both get tested. The husband knows very well it isn't going to be his biological child, so why would he ask for a paternity test? For all I know, some of these couples would have been ok with using the doctor's sperm. It's difficult for me to put myself in the position of these people and figure out what their attitudes would be because this is something I would never under any circumstances have done. I'm not judging people who did or do it, but personally it makes me shkeeve. (Mi fa schifo for Italian speakers. :)) I'd rather have had sex with a man I knew, liked and was attracted to than be a party to this. Then, though, there could be all sorts of complications down the road, I suppose; it's a bond you should only have with your husband, in my opinion, and would he really keep his distance from the child? It's like a prescription for divorce.

I'm not the only one who has problems with it; a friend of mine who is, in fact, a fertility doctor, told me that's one of the things that spurred all the research into IVF and other techniques. Nowadays, from what he tells me, most of the women who use sperm banks are single women for the most part. It's rather gone out of "fashion".

Volat
27-09-16, 22:38
Have you had a lot of experience with American doctors? I have, and many of my friends, and more than a few family members, moreover, are doctors, and that hasn't been my experience on the whole.

I am healthy, so I haven't had much first hand experience with doctors from any country. Although, there are doctors in my extended family. After reading many stories about practices of American doctors I formed an opinion they are a greedy . They are businessmen more concerned about getting wealthy than helping people. I grew up portraying doctors and nurses whose main purpose is to help people.

Tomenable
27-09-16, 23:26
Only 50 ??? Not even close to 500:

http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20140211_00974289


A private Dutch sperm clinic impregnated up to 500 women with the sperm of a mentally handicapped Surinamese man by accident, it has been revealed.

The clinic was also caught falsifying records and storing semen in leaking tanks.

Dutch woman Sonja Noordhoek went to the Humo Medical Center in Bijborp and had two children – a son and a daughter – with the help of the sperm bank. The donor sheet claimed that the sperm came from a Dutch man with two children and a university degree who grew up in South Limburg.

“But while the children were growing up, they were getting darker,” says Sonja. The biological father was then discovered to be an autistic Surinamese man. Sonja said that her daughter did not inherit the mental disability, but her son has some degree of retardation. “I came into contact twelve half brothers and sisters, and ten of them have problems,” Sonja said.

It turns out that the Surinamese man had donated more than was legally allowed, and that this seed was spread throughout the Netherlands and even exported to Austria. It is estimated that between 400 and 500 women have become pregnant with his seed.

Jan Karbaat, the doctor who ran the clinic, is under criminal investigation.

500 accidents in a row.

Volat
27-09-16, 23:36
Only 50 ??? Not even close to 500:

http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20140211_00974289



500 accidents in a row.

The amount he donated to impregnate 500 women. It seems the clinic had only his seed.

Angela
28-09-16, 01:18
Volat, I don't know what you're reading. The indictment alleges 50 instances over decades. The number of impregnated women so far is eight.

Gentlemen, the average price is $35-50 per specimen. In well run clinics there's a limit to how many specimens a donor is allowed to give, usually from four to eight per month. The most that they can make in a 6 month period seems to be about $1500.00. After a certain number of births the man can no longer donate, at least not in that area. Clinics that cater to Jewish couples, i.e. only Jewish donors, pay more.

They have to undergo extensive testing, and from what I understand, most of the women want lawyers, doctors, etc. usually from families where that seems to be the norm.

See:
http://www.spermbankdirectory.com/donating-sperm



"Each bank varies in what they pay per specimen. Usually, the range is 35-50 per specimen. Banks often require a six-month gap between production and complete payment. That is, they will not release payments to a sperm donor until he has completed the second set of blood tests; six months after the first set were done.

Volat
28-09-16, 01:23
Volat, I don't know what you're reading. The indictment alleges 50 instances over decades. The number of impregnated women so far is eight.

I was addressing Tomenable's post with reference to article there were 500 incidents in which the same seed was used of an autistic man of Surinamese descent.

Angela
28-09-16, 01:46
I was addressing Tomenable's post with reference to article there were 500 incidents in which the same seed was used of an autistic man of Surinamese descent.

Ah, sorry, that's the problem when articles in foreign languages aren't translated or at least summarized.

It's really terrible...poor people.

I've never heard of anything like that here...just the occasional ego maniacal, ethics challenged doctor.

LeBrok
28-09-16, 04:14
Yes, well, his hubris and lack of forethought
and selfishness may have.caused an awful
lot of pain to others.

I guess I'm also just amazed how disconnected
some men can be from their biological children.
A sperm donor is indeed not a father.
We can almost say the same about rich sheiks and others, like Mohammed Bello having 86 wives and 170 children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Bello_Abubakar
I doubt he knew half of his children by name, not mentioning any bonding.
I'm not defending this crazy doctor, I'm saying that there is existing human condition in some men to have many children.
Here is an extensive list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_the_most_children

On same page there is list of women who had most babies. The record is 69 kids by one mother. Now this is crazy! Though it was in 17 hundreds, I don't think it is verifiable at all. Maybe it is just a legend.
Anything with good proof is 32 kids from 20th century USA. Crazy anyway.

Twilight
28-09-16, 04:51
See:
http://time.com/4488711/indiana-fertility-doctor-cline-own-sperm/

He claims that he was having a hard time getting donors, so, hey what the heck, why not use my own?

Is it because I'm a woman that I really don't get this? Did he give not a single thought to the children who would be born? It didn't bother him that he had 50 children out there who might get in trouble, need help? What if, all living in the same area, they met, fell in love, married? Did he give no thought to the tragedies that might ensue?

The hubris involved is incredible too. Talk about having a high opinion of yourself.

All of this came to light when nine people who tested with 23andme suddenly found all these half-siblings. I guess it's one of the unanticipated consequences of these kinds of tests. It's a lot harder to hide infidelity, too, if it leads to a child.


It is an attractive idea to some people to have as many children as possible. Modern Genghis Khan.

Im not sure, but I know one thing, R1 dominates Europe and according to the latest gedmatch results and calculations my Indo-European Yamna ancestry is about a third.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#R1b-conquest

But as disgusting as it is impregnating woman with unscreened sperm, I wouldn't consider that assault. But for screened sperm banks, I suppose egg and sperm donations would be like organ donation; for couples whom aren't able to have biological kids together. My mom's former boss has a son whom was born from a sperm bank and raised by a lesbian couple. But it would be cool to have friends of the couple to donate and act as a caregiver/2nd set of parents.

davef
28-09-16, 05:33
I was addressing Tomenable's post with reference to article there were 500 incidents in which the same seed was used of an autistic man of Surinamese descent.

If I expressed my true feelings about that rotten pile of garbage on this forum I would receive an infraction...

Maciamo
28-09-16, 13:10
Women can specify what they want in terms of characteristics here too, including ethnicity, looks, sports oriented, college educated or not, etc., but it's all anonymous. I don't know of any country where it isn't anonymous. That would be a real disaster.

In most countries, sperm donations are not considered anonymous (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_donation_laws_by_country), including the most US states. This means that the child conceived through a sperm donor will have the right to know who is his/her biological father when they turn 18. This is common practice in all western countries except France and Spain, where the child can never know where he/she comes from. I think that it is not psychologically healthy for anyone not to know either of their biological parents. At least now with DNA tests people born of such donations can track their biological father if the father also wants and does a DNA test. Even if the father doesn't want or is already dead, it might still be possible for boys to trace their Y-chromosome to the right surname and get in contact with more distant relatives until they narrow down their potential genitor. But the French system is vicious in that it prohibits children to seek their father through genetic testing and even prosecutes anyone who would dare try. So not only is the French system unhealthy from the start but it punishes by heavy fines and imprisonment any one would seek their biological father. If there is any law in the world that clearly breaches human rights and dignity, that is definitely one of them.




Usually, from what I understand, it is medical school students who do it for extra cash. It doesn't matter if the doctor really wants to do something unethical, however. He just doesn't tell the infertile couple that it's his sperm. He tells them it's from donor X, who is anonymous. It's just not ethical. They should have had the choice even if it meant they had to wait a while for the "right" donor. Plus, you can't have so many half-siblings running around in the same area.

I agree and I think that anyone who seeks a sperm donor should be able to choose the right donor based on detailed information about the donor's looks, personality, intelligence, family background for health (+ DNA test for genetically inherited diseases). Since France bans DNA testing, I am not even sure they screen donors and receivers for potentially disastrous matches if both sides carry broken recessive genes that could cause fatal diseases like cystic fibrosis or hundreds of others (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_disorders). In this age and day of cheap DNA tests it is unthinkable that sperm donors are automatically screened for at least the 50 most common genetically inherited conditions, such as those tested by 23andMe for $100.



As for paternity tests, it doesn't arise in these situations. In the vast number of cases the couple comes in as a couple. They both get tested. The husband knows very well it isn't going to be his biological child, so why would he ask for a paternity test?

I meant the case of a grown-up child seeking out his biological father.



I'm not the only one who has problems with it; a friend of mine who is, in fact, a fertility doctor, told me that's one of the things that spurred all the research into IVF and other techniques. Nowadays, from what he tells me, most of the women who use sperm banks are single women for the most part. It's rather gone out of "fashion".

In northern Europe a lot of women using sperm banks are lesbians (typically married couples). But it will probably take some time before that becomes established in the USA, where many states still ban gay marriages.

Maciamo
28-09-16, 13:37
Only 50 ??? Not even close to 500:

http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20140211_00974289

500 accidents in a row.


That's crazy ! I looked it up now and Dutch sperm banks asks donors to donate once a week. They estimate that only one in three IVF will work and lead to pregnancies. That would mean that this Surinamese guy would have donated on a weekly basis for about 30 years in a row to lead to 500 pregnancies! How could a sperm bank in a country as advanced as the Netherlands let a donor donate for so long. Beside the point, how did they not realise that something was wrong with him, at least after the first babies were born, if he was still donating 30 years later. That is surely a hoax. I don't see how this could be possible at all.

Volat
28-09-16, 13:47
Sperm donation and artificial insemination is expensive, complicated and unnecessary . In the past and to these days, women who want to get pregnant because their partners could conceive would arrange sexual intercourses with men chosen by the women and their husband. Wives of men who were chosen to be biological fathers would not object. Because sexual intercourse was to help another family to have a child. It was similar with women who couldn't give birth to children in the past. Often related women would give away new born babies to relatives who can't conceive. In the past families had many children. Giving away a child even to closest relative could be a problem for the mother.

I know about genealogy and many stories of my family. One child in our extended family was given by sister to his brother’s family who could not conceive. She gave away her 7th child and it was in 1920s. She could not bare the loss of her child. After three months, she demanded her child to be returned breaking hearts of the family of her brother.

I remember reading an article about a woman wanting to get pregnant. So she arranged a meeting with a man who she thought is good candidate to be a biological father for her child. After child was born and was toddler , she found difficult to support the child on her own. She went to the court asking for alimony from biological father. She won the case. Now, the man who though he was doing something good has to support his family and the child of another woman. This incident happened in Australia, which is not a good precedent in my opinion.

Angela
28-09-16, 15:41
Volat, it's one thing to adopt a sibling's or cousin's child. It's another thing to loan out my husband. Sorry, no. That wouldn't happen, or if it did it would create tremendous upheavals. Look how well it worked out when Hagar was brought in to help out. :) Human nature hasn't changed all that much, at least not in certain parts of the world.

Nor would my husband or most of the men I know ever countenance such a thing. He wouldn't even have agreed to artificial insemination, but then I would never have considered it either.

Things must be different in the north. :)

@Maciamo,

I spoke too loosely. By anonymity I meant that you do not know the donor's name, or he yours, or other identifying information when choosing him or during the minority of the child.

As for letting the children have this information when they turn 18 I'm of two minds about it. If the contract the donor signs permits it, fine; if both father and child want to meet, again fine. Otherwise, not. The donor or "birth parents" in general should have rights too. That's the way it's often done in adoptions in general. Both the parent and the child can sign onto the registry if they want to come into contact.

Of course, in a lot of situations, the issue would never have arisen, because the couple never told the child in the first place. Nowadays, if the child turns into a genetics buff, the game is up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_donation#Anonymity

Volat
28-09-16, 16:00
Angela!

I can relate to what you are saying. I would not loan my wife because she'd have to be pregnant for 9 months going through labour risking her life, if it was 70-80 years ago. Even after giving birth she may not be able to give away her child despite her best intentions. But loaning your husband to your friend, cousin or sibling who want to have a child? Why not? It happened many times in the past. You would have loaned your husband if you lived 100 years ago asked by people close to you.

Angela
28-09-16, 20:58
Angela!

I can relate to what you are saying. I would not loan my wife because she'd have to be pregnant for 9 months going through labour risking her life, if it was 70-80 years ago. Even after giving birth she may not be able to give away her child despite her best intentions. But loaning your husband to your friend, cousin or sibling who want to have a child? Why not? It happened many times in the past. You would have loaned your husband if you lived 100 years ago asked by people close to you.

I can't believe you have to ask. Like I said...people must be different in the far north. There must be ice water in those veins instead of hot blood! :)

I would never agree, period. What's mine is mine in this circumstance. No sharing. If it were a sibling, friend etc., it would be even worse, because the relationship, on some level, would have to continue for ever.

You've never heard of "crimes of passion"? Up until around the middle of the 20th century in Italy had I come upon him having sex with another woman I could have killed him right then and there and probably gotten off with impunity. If the situation were reversed he certainly would have...

Given current laws even in Italy, and, of course, here, I wouldn't kill him, but the consequences would be extreme.

Volat
28-09-16, 21:20
I can't believe you have to ask. Like I said...people must be different in the far north. There must be ice water in those veins instead of hot blood! :)

I would never agree, period. What's mine is mine in this circumstance. No sharing. If it were a sibling, friend etc., it would be even worse, because the relationship, on some level, would have to continue for ever.

You've never heard of "crimes of passion"? Up until around the middle of the 20th century in Italy had I come upon him having sex with another woman I could have killed him right then and there and probably gotten off with impunity. If the situation were reversed he certainly would have...

Given current laws even in Italy, and, of course, here, I wouldn't kill him, but the consequences would be extreme.

Southerners are passionate. Our girls are attracted to hot-tempered brunettes living in south. :)

Sexual intercourse as a physiological act has little with relationship. In the past, people didn't have condoms and refrigerators to store sperm. Imagine your family living 100 years ago not being able conceive because your husband whom you loved dearly was sterile and you wanted a child. Would you adopt a homeless child or whould you sleep with another man for several days to get pregnant, agreed by your husband, giving birth and become a happy family? If I was a woman, I'd choose a man whom I know rather than getting sperm from a donor whom I don't know.

Margaret
08-02-19, 10:21
I think this is crazy!