PDA

View Full Version : HarappaWorld Gedmatch, post and compare your admixtures to ancient and contemporary.



Pages : [1] 2 3 4

LeBrok
25-09-16, 04:49
HarappaWord admixtures. Use Gedmatch calculator:
https://www.gedmatch.com (https://www.gedmatch.com/select.php)
First upload your genome data file to Gedmatch, if you there for the first time.
Go to Analyze Your Data, then click on Admixture (heritage), then select HarappaWorld, continue, type your Kit Number in the window, and continue. In about 15 seconds you should see your results.

Latest results for Europe and Ancient samples.



Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Norway
7
0
9
4
56
0
3
0
0
1
1
25
0
0
0
0
0


Sweden
11
0
8
5
56
0
0
0
0
0
0
28
1
0
0
0
0


Ireland
2
0
12
4
50
0
0
0
0
0
0
33
0
0
0
0
0


Scotland
4
0
10
6
51
0
0
0
0
0
1
31
0
0
0
0
0


Wales
3
0
10
6
50
0
0
0
0
1
0
32
0
0
0
0
0


England
7
0
10
7
50
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
0
0
0
0
0


Holland-North
4
0
10
6
54
0
0
0
0
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0


Germany, North
8
0
9
8
53
0
0
0
0
1
0
27
1
0
0
0
0


Germany, South
2
0
9
12
43
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
3
0
0
0
0


Switzerland-French
3
0
8
15
41
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
4
0
0
0
0


French
Harappa
0
9
10
42
0
0
0
0
0
0
36
2
0
0
0
0


South France
hrvclv
0
7
12
39
0
0
0
0
0
0
37
4
0
0
0
0


Portugal
7
0
5
13
31
0
0
0
0
0
0
37
8
0
1
0
1


Spain
Harappa
1
6
10
31
0
0
0
0
0
0
45
5
0
1
0
0


Basque
4
1
6
1
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
58
1
0
0
0
0


Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0


Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0


Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0


Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0


Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0


Malta
7
0
7
33
15
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
14
0
1
0
1


Sardinia
5
0
0
24
16
0
0
0
1
0
0
49
10
0
0
0
0


Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Saami
4
1
3
0
59
1
18
3
1
2
4
5
0
0
0
0
3


Finland
6
1
4
3
71
0
6
1
0
0
1
11
3
0
0
0
0


Latvia
5
1
7
7
65
0
1
0
0
0
0
19
0
0
0
0
0


Lithuania
5
1
8
7
62
0
0
0
1
0
1
20
1
0
0
0
0


Russia
Harappa
1
4
13
64
0
3
0
0
1
1
13
0
0
0
0
0


Belorussia
Harappa
1
5
10
64
1
1
0
0
0
0
16
1
0
0
0
0


Ukraine
Harappa
1
6
12
58
0
1
0
0
0
0
17
2
0
0
0
0


Poland
3
0
8
11
56
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
2
0
0
0
0


Czechy
3
1
9
9
52
0
0
0
0
1
0
26
2
0
0
0
0


Slovenia
3
0
7
15
50
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
3
0
0
0
0


Croatia
8
0
7
17
45
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
4
0
0
0
0


Bosnia
2
0
9
21
41
0
1
0
0
1
0
23
5
0
0
0
0


Serbia
1
0
8
20
40
0
1
0
0
1
0
27
4
0
0
0
0


Austria
2
0
7
15
43
1
0
0
0
0
0
30
4
0
0
0
0


Hungary
3
0
9
15
47
0
1
0
0
1
0
25
2
0
0
0
0


Romania
5
0
8
23
35
1
1
0
0
0
0
25
6
0
0
0
0


Bulgaria
5
0
9
25
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
7
0
0
0
0


Macedonia
selectivememri
0
6
25
35
0
1
0
0
0
1
25
7
0
0
0
0


Albania
17
0
6
28
29
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
8
0
0
0
0


Albania, Tosk
7
0
7
30
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
9
0
0
0
0


Greece, Mainland
5
0
7
30
26
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0


Greece, Ionian
2
0
9
34
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
12
0
0
0
0


Greek, Islands, East
13
0
9
38
15
0
0
0
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0


Crete
5
0
8
39
15
0
0
1
0
0
0
21
14
0
0
0
0


Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0


Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Ashkenazi
11
0
7
33
16
0
0
0
0
0
0
25
15
0
1
0
0


Sephardi, Tunisia
6
1
7
33
8
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
22
0
3
0
1


Turkey
4
1
15
44
11
0
4
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0


Armenia
7
1
20
52
3
0
0
0
0
0
0
10
13
0
0
0
0


Georgia
6
0
21
58
7
0
1
0
0
0
0
5
6
0
0
0
0


Lebanon
7
0
11
45
2
0
0
0
0
0
0
15
24
0
1
0
0


Samaritans
3
0
7
45
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
15
31
0
2
0
0


Palestine
Harappa
1
7
39
1
0
0
0
0
0
0
12
31
0
5
0
2


Iran
Harappa
4
27
40
5
1
2
1
1
0
1
5
13
0
0
0
0


Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Ancient samples



















WHG




78



1


21







SHG




90



1
2
1
7







EHG


14

76




10









CHG

1
34
51
6
1
1









6


Iran Neolithic

6
63
25








4



2


Levant BA


4
37

1





12
45






Yamnaya


33
7
56




2
1





1


Armenia BA


23
39
19

1

1
1
1
9
5



2


Anatolia LN


9
48
6






27
9






Hungary LN



19
17






56
8






Hungary BA


3
15
46






32
3






Italy BA



11
21
1





61
5



1


Spain MN



19
11






58
12






Spain LN



4
24






63
5



3


Unetice BA


16
6
58




1

19







Ireland BA

1
13
2
53

1


1

27




2


BellBeaker


11
2
54






32







Hungary IA


15
15
44

3


2

21







Sarmatian, IA


25
6
51

4


2
1
11







England IA


11
6
50





1
31




1


Sweden IA


10

61




1

28




1


Andronovo, BA

1
21
3
56

2


1
1
14




1


Greece LN


0
35
4
1





44
13



3


Minoan, average



47
1






39
13






Mycenaean, average

3
39
13






36
9







Here are the source/ancient best matching populations of Harappa admixtures:



Admixtures
Iranian Neolithic
10,000 Years Ago
CHG
13KYA
Natufian
13 KYA
EHG Samara
7.5 KYA
Anatolian EF
8 KYA
WHG
Hungary K01
7.5 KYA
EEF
Stuttgart
7.5 KYA
Yamnaya
Rise 522
4.5 KYA
Notes


S-Indian
6.13
0.62









Baloch
62.71
36.63

14.33



33.24
Ancient Central Asian, high in Early Iranian Farmer, also present in Steppe


Caucasian
24.97
54.15
13.98

37.64

30.6
6.58
CHG mostly


NE-Euro

3.84

71.08
0.86
82.06
7.82
56.02
EHG, mostly WHG/ANE


SE-Asian

0.59









Siberian

0.77









NE-Asian











Papuan
0.35

0.68


0.2





American



6.89



2.46



Beringian



1.7



0.75



Mediterranean


27.39

47.24
17.44
49.46

Anatolian EF and WHG mix


SW-Asian
3.88

53.62

14.00

12.01

Mostly Natufian


San
0.18





0.11




E-African


4.33








Pygmy

0.25









W-African
1.78
3.01

0.13
0.27
0.26

0.98



Some observation:
Baloch is maxed out in Iranian Neolithic population, and 1/3 in CHG. Interestingly it exists also in EHG. In EHG it didn't come from INF or CHG because EHG lacks Caucasian admixture. It must be ancient?
Caucasian is highest in Caucasian Hunter Gatherer, and spills over to Natufians and Iranian Early Farmers. But it didn't spill over Caucasus mountain to European Hunter Gatherer. This is rather surprising.
Caucasian admixture is seen first time on other side of Caucasus in Yamnaya sample. Proportions of Baloch and Caucasian in Yamnaya point of its mediation from Iranian Farmers and not from CHG.
South West Asian admixture is highest in Natufian, which is almost not found in CHG or Iranian farmer. This admixture can easily identify Natufian genes.
Mediterranean admixture is highest in Anatolia. It also in part Natufian and in part WHG as we can see it in Hungarian Hunter gatherer at almost 20% level.

Here are the links to ancient samples with Kit Numbers:
http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=8462.0
http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-6947.html



Here is something very interesting, genomes of Kostenki and Mal'ta boy which are very connected to ancient populations of this region:



Admixtures
Kostenki
Black Sea
36 KYA
Mal'ta boy
Siberia
24 KYA
Notes


S-Indian
13.18
10.13



Baloch
12.49
24.09
Early Iranian Farmer admixture mostly


Caucasian
0.00
0.00
CHG mostly


NE-Euro
29.02
40.14
EHG, SHG and most of WHG/ANE


SE-Asian
4.28




Siberian
1.75




NE-Asian





Papuan
5.16
0.7



American
3.32
17.71



Beringian
1.43
6.74



Mediterranean
18.76
0.00
Anatolian EF and WHG mix


SW-Asian
5.89
0.00
Mostly Natufian, high in semitic countries


San
1.24
0.3



E-African
1.82




Pygmy
0.92
0.19



W-African
0.73




Mal'ta contains only Baloch and NE Euro. Pretty much what was present in EHG, and likewise they miss Mediterranean and SW-Asian.
Kostenki lived north of Black Sea area though much earlier. It contains all the admixtures, even in relation to Natufians, but it is missing Caucasian admixture, same as Mal'ta boy. It seems that Caucasian admixture was a late arrival to the area. These two have even the connection to S-Indian but not to Caucasian!? Where did Caucasian come from? Perhaps it is a young admixture of secluded HGs in Caucasus mountains, separated from Baloch group.




Ethnicity
Dataset
N
C1
C2
C3
C4
C5
C6
C7
C8
C9
C10
C11
C12
C13
C14
C15
C16





S Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE Euro
SE Asian
Siberian
NE Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW Asian
San
E African
Pygmy
W African


basque
hgdp
24
0%
8%
1%
33%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
58%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


belorussian
behar
9
1%
5%
10%
64%
1%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
16%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%


bulgarian
yunusbayev
13
0%
5%
28%
36%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
1%
23%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%


cypriot
behar
12
0%
7%
49%
6%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
19%
17%
0%
0%
0%
0%


finnish
1000genomes
100
1%
1%
2%
80%
0%
6%
0%
0%
0%
1%
5%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%


french
hgdp
28
0%
9%
10%
42%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
36%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%


hungarian
behar
19
0%
7%
15%
49%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
24%
3%
0%
0%
0%
0%


italian
hgdp
13
0%
5%
22%
29%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
37%
6%
0%
0%
0%
0%


lithuanian
behar
10
0%
7%
5%
72%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
15%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


romanian-a
behar
14
1%
6%
26%
36%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
23%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%


russian
behar
2
1%
4%
13%
64%
1%
3%
0%
1%
1%
1%
13%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


sardinian
hgdp
28
0%
0%
20%
12%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
60%
7%
0%
0%
0%
0%


serbian
harappa
1
0%
8%
23%
42%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
22%
3%
0%
0%
0%
0%


slovenian
xing
25
1%
6%
15%
51%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
23%
3%
0%
0%
0%
0%


spaniard
behar
12
0%
7%
11%
32%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
44%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%


turk-istanbul
hodoglugil
20
1%
16%
45%
11%
1%
3%
3%
0%
0%
1%
11%
9%
0%
0%
0%
0%


tuscan
1000genomes
11
0%
6%
29%
24%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
32%
8%
0%
0%
0%
0%


ukranian
yunusbayev
20
1%
6%
12%
58%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
17%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%






Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


algeria
0.46
2.32
2.82
0.53
0.32
0.36
0.14
0.25
0.19
0.58
38.88
30.20
0.46
10.30
0.34
11.83


assyrian
0.24
19.37
51.67
1.19
0.05
0.09
0.37
0.42
0.15
0.26
8.17
17.89
0.02
0.04
0.00
0.07


egypt
1.02
2.55
28.48
0.76
0.14
0.26
0.10
0.42
0.23
0.25
16.60
32.75
0.08
11.30
0.54
4.53


egyptian
0.26
3.06
30.48
0.36
0.27
0.14
0.11
0.35
0.19
0.29
12.84
33.11
0.26
12.42
0.15
5.69


iraqi-arab
3.80
18.72
37.81
2.05
0.18
0.92
0.97
0.77
0.17
0.76
8.03
21.89
0.48
2.33
0.57
0.56


iraqi-mandaean
0.84
20.18
47.80
0.00
0.06
0.00
0.00
0.18
0.59
0.60
7.08
22.21
0.00
0.45
0.00
0.00


jordanian
0.59
9.43
38.85
1.22
0.24
0.22
0.50
0.31
0.21
0.43
11.89
28.28
0.15
5.05
0.27
2.36


lebanese
0.54
10.84
41.42
2.87
0.61
0.58
0.61
0.33
0.24
0.21
13.09
23.47
0.19
3.35
0.14
1.49


lebanese-christian
0.36
9.86
49.26
0.10
0.34
0.45
0.32
1.06
0.50
0.72
11.66
22.86
0.66
1.63
0.23
0.00


lebanese-druze
0.76
10.65
49.86
0.35
0.44
0.46
0.20
1.27
0.47
1.07
10.58
20.74
0.54
1.93
0.51
0.17


lebanese-muslim
0.95
10.98
45.29
1.55
0.35
0.98
0.44
1.08
0.65
1.11
10.71
20.83
0.66
3.16
0.60
0.67


libya
0.45
1.09
10.75
0.81
0.37
0.36
0.22
0.27
0.36
0.47
26.54
38.71
0.10
10.73
0.36
8.40


moroccan
0.90
0.30
3.71
0.58
0.07
0.20
0.08
0.21
0.19
0.05
35.13
32.21
0.00
10.61
0.02
15.75


morocco-n
0.70
1.15
1.69
1.13
0.34
0.37
0.10
0.51
0.25
0.49
46.28
28.24
0.29
10.20
0.05
8.20


morocco-s
0.31
0.00
0.05
0.06
0.18
0.32
0.04
0.28
0.04
0.17
36.35
23.01
0.26
12.53
0.40
25.99


mozabite
0.39
0.32
0.56
0.54
0.08
0.61
0.03
0.10
0.03
0.26
39.57
33.74
0.01
10.07
0.00
13.67


palestinian
0.88
7.40
39.30
1.03
0.26
0.14
0.10
0.35
0.19
0.17
11.81
31.00
0.23
4.70
0.19
2.26


saudi
0.86
4.89
26.18
1.16
0.16
0.16
0.16
0.22
0.30
0.16
3.39
57.74
0.31
3.03
0.34
0.93


syrian
1.74
12.18
41.07
2.97
0.28
0.46
0.21
0.22
0.19
0.43
10.07
25.36
0.19
2.64
0.26
1.73


yemenese
2.44
7.85
26.76
0.93
0.46
0.24
0.21
0.43
0.28
0.55
5.40
35.59
0.33
8.24
1.44
8.85


ashkenazi
0.87
5.36
33.87
19.33
0.48
0.49
0.63
0.16
0.19
0.25
24.00
13.60
0.14
0.46
0.15
0.03


ashkenazy-jew
0.69
6.61
34.46
15.63
0.38
0.71
0.40
0.38
0.28
0.28
24.14
14.88
0.16
0.88
0.07
0.07


azerbaijan-jew
0.90
17.34
53.58
1.42
0.30
0.43
0.00
0.19
0.40
0.28
8.01
17.02
0.04
0.08
0.03
0.00


bene-israel-jew
34.93
26.16
21.28
1.09
0.24
0.48
0.32
0.81
0.24
0.83
4.67
8.08
0.11
0.49
0.12
0.16


ethiopian-jew
0.05
0.03
6.46
0.00
0.12
0.10
0.04
0.26
0.08
0.12
4.10
35.35
2.69
50.04
0.48
0.10


georgia-jew
0.34
15.80
52.14
2.36
0.51
0.12
0.04
0.12
0.42
0.30
7.96
19.42
0.00
0.46
0.00
0.00


iranian-jew
0.47
18.93
49.60
0.00
0.50
0.20
0.33
0.15
0.19
0.22
7.06
21.97
0.04
0.26
0.07
0.00


iraq-jew
0.54
17.27
48.77
0.15
0.30
0.00
0.00
0.36
0.13
0.05
8.65
23.57
0.02
0.17
0.02
0.00


morocco-jew
0.86
6.36
32.76
8.33
0.16
0.04
0.06
0.13
0.10
0.15
27.54
20.00
0.22
1.96
0.06
1.26


sephardic-jew
0.79
6.61
36.38
9.22
0.18
0.33
0.09
0.28
0.10
0.15
25.60
18.42
0.10
1.07
0.19
0.49


uzbekistan-jew
1.44
20.59
46.03
3.99
0.22
0.42
0.16
0.70
0.29
0.25
7.41
18.31
0.00
0.19
0.00
0.00


yemen-jew
0.78
1.53
35.81
0.03
0.15
0.07
0.00
0.27
0.14
0.12
5.87
50.72
0.17
4.34
0.03
0.00






Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


abhkasian
0.33
18.49
69.15
7.62
0.40
0.83
0.42
0.26
0.30
0.71
0.67
0.71
0.02
0.02
0.01
0.07


adygei
0.53
18.38
56.60
16.37
0.58
3.10
1.01
0.30
0.53
0.67
1.70
0.23
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00


armenian
0.41
17.07
57.29
5.35
0.10
0.29
0.16
0.26
0.22
0.23
8.21
10.40
0.00
0.01
0.00
0.00


armenian
2.12
18.25
46.35
3.32
0.13
0.72
0.92
1.63
0.07
0.62
10.29
14.55
0.57
0.35
0.11
0.00


armenian
0.52
17.65
56.61
2.95
0.13
0.09
0.09
0.27
0.18
0.20
8.40
12.91
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00


azeri
3.03
19.73
45.69
7.84
0.04
3.83
1.41
0.29
0.27
1.36
6.36
9.50
0.12
0.13
0.21
0.17


chechen
0.15
22.44
51.00
20.05
0.40
1.89
0.62
0.30
0.91
0.70
0.87
0.67
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00


georgian
0.29
17.46
71.97
6.38
0.12
0.33
0.23
0.32
0.24
0.37
1.10
1.16
0.02
0.00
0.00
0.00


georgian
0.05
19.93
62.40
6.08
0.40
0.26
0.79
0.55
0.18
0.86
1.83
6.38
0.22
0.06
0.00
0.00


iranian
3.93
27.42
38.80
4.14
0.47
0.95
0.52
0.39
0.34
0.48
4.98
15.08
0.14
0.81
0.30
1.26


iranian
3.69
27.14
40.66
5.33
0.54
1.80
1.49
0.65
0.39
1.11
5.17
11.35
0.21
0.30
0.14
0.03


kumyk
0.38
21.20
47.50
16.16
0.57
3.73
2.85
0.36
0.67
0.61
2.82
3.12
0.00
0.00
0.03
0.00


kurd
3.01
25.64
41.13
4.69
0.43
1.29
0.58
0.81
0.62
0.87
6.38
13.37
0.38
0.55
0.24
0.00


kurd
0.75
27.90
44.12
4.87
0.30
0.57
0.28
0.39
0.75
0.51
4.86
13.94
0.12
0.32
0.13
0.19


kurd
1.56
26.52
45.34
5.55
0.32
0.49
0.58
0.38
0.38
0.19
5.67
12.81
0.09
0.05
0.07
0.00


lezgin
0.02
28.15
46.69
20.10
0.14
1.05
0.32
0.14
0.92
0.84
0.74
0.88
0.02
0.01
0.00
0.00


stalskoe
0.07
23.71
40.73
20.55
1.65
2.76
0.81
0.59
1.56
1.34
3.97
1.55
0.20
0.07
0.24
0.21


urkarah
0.27
27.90
43.17
24.08
0.45
1.05
0.00
0.39
1.10
0.90
0.11
0.29
0.06
0.06
0.12
0.05


north-ossetian
0.28
19.35
45.41
13.79
0.97
5.35
3.10
1.41
1.32
0.57
4.12
3.08
0.51
0.00
0.75
0.00


north-ossetian
0.10
18.43
56.38
14.71
0.27
3.91
2.92
0.39
0.55
1.14
1.08
0.10
0.01
0.01
0.00
0.00



Maximums in modern populations:


Ethnicity
Dataset

S Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE Euro
SE Asian
Siberian
NE Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW Asian
San
E African
Pygmy
W African


paniya
chaubey
3
84%
0%
3%
0%
4%
2%
2%
4%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


brahui
hgdp
25
12%
58%
12%
2%
1%
0%
0%
1%
0%
0%
2%
10%
0%
1%
0%
1%


georgian
behar
20
0%
17%
72%
6%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
1%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%


finnish
1000genomes
100
1%
1%
2%
80%
0%
6%
0%
0%
0%
1%
5%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%


iban
xing
25
5%
0%
0%
0%
87%
4%
0%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


nganassan
rasmussen
12
0%
1%
1%
3%
0%
89%
1%
0%
0%
4%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


japanese
1000genomes
7
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
1%
99%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


papuan
hgdp
17
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
100%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


colombian
hgdp
7
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
100%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


chukchi
rasmussen
15
0%
0%
1%
5%
0%
12%
0%
0%
1%
80%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


sardinian
hgdp
28
0%
0%
20%
12%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
60%
7%
0%
0%
0%
0%


saudi
behar
20
1%
5%
26%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
3%
58%
0%
3%
0%
1%


san
hgdp
6
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
100%
0%
0%
0%


gumuz
pagani
18
0%
0%
0%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
2%
1%
93%
3%
0%


mbutipygmy
hgdp
13
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
100%
0%


yoruba
1000genomes
5
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
100%





https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l87nGSIYTP-h7m-VKjB-BZcuEoWdz765nU4f_krOdd4/edit#gid=0

Goga
25-09-16, 05:03
Interesting Iran_Recent had elevated NE Euro and more Caucasian. Can you run Neolithic Iranian through this calculator?
Nothing special. In general Kurds from Northern Kurdistan (Turkish occupied) score also more 'Caucasian' and 'NE Euro' than me or Kurds from South East Kurdistan (Iran) in general.


Native Caucasian speakers (like Adygeans) have also more 'Caucasian' and 'NE Euro' than Iranians.


So, Iran_Recent is more shifted toward Caucasus, while Southern Kurds / modern Iranians are slightly more shifted toward the Iranian Plateau.

Tomenable
25-09-16, 12:09
Interesting Iran_Recent had elevated NE Euro and more Caucasian. Can you run Neolithic Iranian through this calculator?

I couldn't find that Neolithic Iranian on GEDmatch, but I found the Chalcolithic one (kit number M124870):

HarappaWorld:



Admixture:
Zoran:
Arya:
Goga:
Irn1400s:
IrnCopperAge
IrnNeolithic


Caucasian
40,79
40,88
40,84
45,47
49,91
?


Baloch
27,95
29,33
27,86
26,89
37,82
?


SW-Asian
13,29
14,96
13,9
13,13
10,88
?


NE-Euro
4,3
4,75
3,92
7,27
-
?


Mediterranean
8,05
4,17
8,27
4,87
-
?


S-Indian
2,99
3,71
2,23
1,23
1,05
?


Siberian
0,96
0,22
1,08
0,65
-
?


W-African
-
-
-
0,2
0,33
?


SE-Asian
-
0,27
0,57
0,18
-
?


Beringian
-
0,26
-
0,12
-
?


NE-Asian
-
0,39
-
-
-
?


Papuan
0,28
0,92
0,36
-
-
?


American
0,67
-
0,98
-
-
?


San
0,63
-
-
-
-
?


E-African
0,07
0,14
-
-
-
?


Pygmy
-
-
-
-
-
?

LeBrok
25-09-16, 17:43
I couldn't find that Neolithic Iranian on GEDmatch, but I found the Chalcolithic one (kit number M124870):

HarappaWorld:



Admixture:
Zoran:
Arya:
Goga:
Irn1400s:
IrnCopperAge
IrnNeolithic


Caucasian
40,79
40,88
40,84
45,47
49,91
?


Baloch
27,95
29,33
27,86
26,89
37,82
?


SW-Asian
13,29
14,96
13,9
13,13
10,88
?


NE-Euro
4,3
4,75
3,92
7,27
-
?


Mediterranean
8,05
4,17
8,27
4,87
-
?


S-Indian
2,99
3,71
2,23
1,23
1,05
?


Siberian
0,96
0,22
1,08
0,65
-
?


W-African
-
-
-
0,2
0,33
?


SE-Asian
-
0,27
0,57
0,18
-
?


Beringian
-
0,26
-
0,12
-
?


NE-Asian
-
0,39
-
-
-
?


Papuan
0,28
0,92
0,36
-
-
?


American
0,67
-
0,98
-
-
?


San
0,63
-
-
-
-
?


E-African
0,07
0,14
-
-
-
?


Pygmy
-
-
-
-
-
?



Wow, now it is getting interesting. Copper Age guy has fewer admixtures. He/she is of much "purer" origin. Mainly two sources, Caucasus and Baloch. Is Baloch same as Gedrosia?
Could it be run by something showing Yamnaya/Afansievo or Step admixtures?

NE Euro and Mediterranean is missing completely. When did it come to The middle East? Greek/Roman/Anatolian/Turkic conquests?
Half of Mediterranean admixture in this run could contain Semitic/Arabic admixture, and some in SW Asian I suppose.

It'd be interesting to check other guys from the area to see what was native and what came with Steppe invasion of IEs, or source of Gedrosia. Even to check if Steppe theory holds water.
Mesolithic guys from Iran, Caucasus and Yamnaya. Whoever they have in this calculator, please.

Angela
25-09-16, 19:07
He already had almost 11% SW Asian, and modern people have only 13-15%.

It's the North East European and Mediterranean that he's missing. The North East European could have come with steppe people in the Bronze or even the Iron Age, and so could the little bit of Mediterranean as well perhaps. The Srubnaya, Andronovo type people were, what, 40% Middle Neolithic as well as EHG?

LeBrok
25-09-16, 21:15
He already had almost 11% SW Asian, and modern people have only 13-15%.

It's the North East European and Mediterranean that he's missing. The North East European could have come with steppe people in the Bronze or even the Iron Age, and so could the little bit of Mediterranean as well perhaps. The Srubnaya, Andronovo type people were, what, 40% Middle Neolithic as well as EHG? Good point angela NE European could have been connected to the Steppe admixture. In this case this copper age Iranian could have been Iranian Neolithic Farmer like before Steppe invasion.

Tomenable
25-09-16, 23:53
I share 701 matching segments with RISE150 and 921 with BR2.

Numbers such as 701 - 921 matching segments seem to be a lot.

I made a similar comparison with ancient and modern Iranians:

Kit T637158 (Medieval Iranian) shares 758 segments with a modern Iranian.

Kit M124870 (Copper Age Iranian) shares 597 segments with a modern Iranian.

Finally, T637158 and M124870 share 380 matching segments with each other.

Criteria of comparison were the same in each case:


Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 25 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 25 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM

Goga
26-09-16, 03:54
It seems that there was a some kind of a migration from the Balkans into the western parts of the Iranian Plateau, and Aryans (West Iranian like the Medes and Persians) mixed a little bit with those people. Maybe from the Indo-European West Anatolians like the Hittites and Phrygia or something???


Y-DNA hg. I2a and E-V13 are not native to Iranian/Aryans otherwise there would be some Y-DNA hg. I2a and E-V13 in BMAC and SouthCentral Asia or even in India.Has to be either from the Lydians who lived on the western side of the Aryan Medes or has to be from the East Iranized Scythians who lived just north of the first Aryan mighty Median Empire. Or both, from Lydians AND Scythians. Althought we have DNA of Alano-Sarmatians, but they were not I2a & E-V13, BUT J1, J2, G2a, R1a-Z93 which are very common among the modern day Aryan people (Kurds & Persians) of the western Iranian Plateau


http://www.artarena.force9.co.uk/Image/media.gif

8048


http://ancientworldlibrary.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Median-Empire-580x348.jpg

8049

http://ancientworldlibrary.com/through-the-land-of-the-medes-april-3-5-2016

Tomenable
26-09-16, 06:02
LeBrok, you have a lot of Hindu Kush as well, and your wife too.

Interesting, where did it come from? Why do we have so much?


How did Hindu Kush got to Poland? With Gypsies?

Check how much of "South India" do you have in HarappaWorld.

Someone with Gypsy ancestry should score a lot of South India.

On the other hand, "Hindu Kush" is more similar to "Baloch".

My results:

http://s14.postimg.org/am6qlshf5/Harappa.png

LeBrok
26-09-16, 06:26
LeBrok, you have a lot of Hindu Kush as well, and your wife too.

Interesting, where did it come from? Why do we have so much?



Check how much of "South India" do you have in HarappaWorld.

Someone with Gypsy ancestry should score a lot of South India.

On the other hand, "Hindu Kush" is more similar to "Baloch".

My results:

http://s14.postimg.org/am6qlshf5/Harappa.png


Population



S-Indian
0.62


Baloch
7.47


Caucasian
10.05


NE-Euro
57.28


SE-Asian
0.54


Siberian
1.22


NE-Asian
0.35


Papuan
-


American
-


Beringian
0.07


Mediterranean
21.53


SW-Asian
0.86


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
-



Nothing extraordinary here, though I have bunch of many small admixtures. Some of my far ancestors have been around, lol.

Tomenable
26-09-16, 06:36
This 0,62 South Indian is not enough for Gypsy ancestors. At least not anything recent.

Gypsies most probably have some "Hindu Kush", but they have even more of S-Indian.


It is too elevated to be explained with few Gypsies in Poland

Maybe it is from Armenians in Poland ???

You are from southern regions (Cracow and Galicia, right?) so maybe "Hindu Kush" is higher there.


Surprisingly, for a guy who loves HGs, your Farmer/Near Eastern is the highest, Tomenable. ;)

Maybe that's why I love HGs, lol. ;)


The "average" group of Poles was really high on WHG and Steppe and low on Farmer. I wonder what region they were from?

Perhaps from North-Eastern Poland? It is Davidski's calculator, so he probably chose the sample.

LeBrok
26-09-16, 07:12
How do you check who from ancient samples they have in Gedmatch calculator? I would like to see Yamnaya folks, Afansievo, and Samara HGs in K15.

Goga
26-09-16, 18:03
Maybe it is from Armenians in Poland ???

You are from southern regions (Cracow and Galicia, right?) so maybe "Hindu Kush" is higher there.
Armenians are also receivers and not donors of this component. Armenians don't have as much of the so called 'Gedrosia' "Hindu Kush" component as Iranians and native people of the Iranian Plateau.


from Dodecad K12b results Armenians score between 15 - 178 % of Gedrosian.


My Dodecad K12b results :




#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasus
37.76


2
Gedrosia
28.04


3
Southwest_Asian
14.71


4
Atlantic_Med
8.76


5
North_European
4.87


6
South_Asian
2.69


7
Northwest_African
1.76


8
Siberian
0.88


9
Southeast_Asian
0.32


10
East_Asian
0.21




from Spreadsheet for Dodecad K12b



Population
Gedrosia
Siberian
Northwest_Africa
Southeast_Asia
Atlantic_Med
North_Europe
South_Asia
East_Africa
Southwest_Asia
East_Asia
Caucasus
Sub_Sahara


Armenian
16.82
0.00
0.00
0.00
10.31
3.00
0.00
0.00
14.01
0.00
55.86
0.00


Armenians
15.80
0.00
0.00
0.00
9.80
4.50
0.20
0.00
9.90
0.00
59.80
0.00


Armenians_15
18.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
8.80
3.40
0.40
0.00
13.70
0.00
55.70
0.00

LeBrok
26-09-16, 23:14
HarappaWorld:
Added late Afanasevo Culture samples Rise 509, or (early Andronovo?).



Admixture:
Zoran:
Arya:
Goga:
Irn1400s:
IrnCopperAge
Afansevo
Rise 509


Caucasian
40,79
40,88
40,84
45,47
49,91
2.03


Baloch
27,95
29,33
27,86
26,89
37,82
29.56



SW-Asian
13,29
14,96
13,9
13,13
10,88
-


NE-Euro
4,3
4,75
3,92
7,27
-
63.24


Mediterranean
8,05
4,17
8,27
4,87
-
1.89


S-Indian
2,99
3,71
2,23
1,23
1,05
-


Siberian
0,96
0,22
1,08
0,65
-
1.64


W-African
-
-
-
0,2
0,33
0.72


SE-Asian
-
0,27
0,57
0,18
-
-


Beringian
-
0,26
-
0,12
-
1.45


NE-Asian
-
0,39
-
-
-
-


Papuan
0,28
0,92
0,36
-
-
-


American
0,67
-
0,98
-
-
1.40


San
0,63
-
-
-
-
-


E-African
0,07
0,14
-
-
-
-


Pygmy
-
-
-
-
-
-



Interestingly Rise 509 has a lot of Baloch, but almost no Caucasian. Perhaps the Baloch is same as Early Neolithic Iranian Farmer, who migrated to the Steppe.
It has a lot of Euro at 63%. In this case, if Rise 509 is a good proxy of IE who invaded South, the ratio would need to be 1 invader to 9 locals. In order to leave only 7% of NE Euro in ancient Iranian (Iran1400).

LeBrok
26-09-16, 23:40
[QUOTE=LeBrok;490734]HarappaWorld:
Added Catacomb Culture (post Yamanya) Rise 552, ~2000 BC, just North of Caucasus. It has more Caucasian and Baloch. I'm starting to think that Caucasian admixture in this run is the same as Anatolian/Levant Neolithic and Baloch is the Iranian Neolithic. NE European is all the WHG/ANE from hunter gatherers. Well, all very roughly counted, I should add.



Admixture:
Zoran:
Arya:
Goga:
Irn1400s:
IrnCopperAge
Afansevo
Rise 509
Catacomb
Rise 552


Caucasian
40,79
40,88
40,84
45,47
49,91
2.03
6.58


Baloch
27,95
29,33
27,86
26,89
37,82
29.56
33.24


SW-Asian
13,29
14,96
13,9
13,13
10,88
-



NE-Euro
4,3
4,75
3,92
7,27
-
63.24
56.02


Mediterranean
8,05
4,17
8,27
4,87
-
1.89



S-Indian
2,99
3,71
2,23
1,23
1,05
-



Siberian
0,96
0,22
1,08
0,65
-
1.64



W-African
-
-
-
0,2
0,33
0.72
0.95


SE-Asian
-
0,27
0,57
0,18
-
-



Beringian
-
0,26
-
0,12
-
1.45
0.75


NE-Asian
-
0,39
-
-
-
-



Papuan
0,28
0,92
0,36
-
-
-



American
0,67
-
0,98
-
-
1.40
2.46


San
0,63
-
-
-
-
-



E-African
0,07
0,14
-
-
-
-



Pygmy
-
-
-
-
-
-

LeBrok
26-09-16, 23:58
HarappaWorld:
Added mine and extra description.


Admixture:
Zoran:
Arya:
Goga:
Irn1400s:
IrnCopperAge
Afansevo
Rise 509
Catacomb
Rise 552
Modern
Polish



Caucasian
40,79
40,88
40,84
45,47
49,91
2.03
6.58
10.05
Part of EEF


Baloch
27,95
29,33
27,86
26,89
37,82
29.56
33.24
7.47
Iranian Neolithic


SW-Asian
13,29
14,96
13,9
13,13
10,88
-

0.86
Semitic?


NE-Euro
4,3
4,75
3,92
7,27
-
63.24
56.02
57.25
EHG


Mediterranean
8,05
4,17
8,27
4,87
-
1.89

21.53
Part of EEF


S-Indian
2,99
3,71
2,23
1,23
1,05
-

0.62



Siberian
0,96
0,22
1,08
0,65
-
1.64

1.22



W-African
-
-
-
0,2
0,33
0.72
0.95




SE-Asian
-
0,27
0,57
0,18
-
-

0.54



Beringian
-
0,26
-
0,12
-
1.45
0.75
0.07



NE-Asian
-
0,39
-
-
-
-





Papuan
0,28
0,92
0,36
-
-
-





American
0,67
-
0,98
-
-
1.40
2.46




San
0,63
-
-
-
-
-





E-African
0,07
0,14
-
-
-
-





Pygmy
-
-
-
-
-
-

Goga
27-09-16, 00:18
HarappaWorld:
Added late Afanasevo Culture samples Rise 509, or (early Andronovo?).

Interestingly Rise 509 has a lot of Baloch, but almost no Caucasian. Perhaps the Baloch is same as Early Neolithic Iranian Farmer, who migrated to the Steppe.
It has a lot of Euro at 63%. In this case, if Rise 509 is a good proxy of IE who invaded South, the ratio would need to be 1 invader to 9 locals. In order to leave only 7% of NE Euro in ancient Iranian (Iran1400).Nice try.


It was actually the other way around.


proto-East Iranians from proto-BMAC culture from SouthCentral Asia went to the Eastern Steppes and 'Iranized' the natives of the Andronovo horizon.



Caucasian and Baloch components were brought into the Yamnaya Horzion by PIE folks from Maykop/Leyla Tepe. Those PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe were folks with 2 main components: Caucasian and Baloch. Than Yamnaya invaded Europe and brought Baloch/Gedrosia component into Europe.


Afansevo can't be directly from Yamnaya Horizon (second stage of PIE) because there is not much of Caucasian auDNA there.


That means that there was a migration from the Iranian Plateau into the Steppes who Indo-Europized ( / Iranized ) native people of the Steppes.


By the time when Iranians from proto-BMAC invaded the Steppes, the Eastern Steppes were not Indo-European yet because there was not enough Caucasian auDNA yet, while in Yamnaya was a lot Caucasian auDNA.



Baloch components is true PIE and later even an Iranian (Aryan) component.

Goga
27-09-16, 00:33
" Hints of a northward movement from the Southern Central Asian oases are also in Ferghana, a region rich in tin deposits, because there has been found a store of bronze and silver objects of southern origin (op. cit., pp.243-244 (http://books.google.it/books?id=GXzycd3dT9kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=central+asia+history+civilizations&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_0sJUdvBCKmA4gSDuYGIDA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=southern%20origin&f=false)). It is remarkable that Bactrian camels are among the animals bred in the Andronovo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture) cultures succeeding Sintashta culture (they are dated 1800-1000 BC), and camels were domesticated in Turkmenistan at least in the first half of the 3rd millennium BC (see here (http://www.silkroadfoundation.org/newsletter/vol3num1/7_bactrian.php)); they had an Indo-Iranian name (*uštra-), which was borrowed into Finno-Ugric and Turkic languages. "

http://new-indology.blogspot.nl/2013/02/indo-iranians-new-perspectives.html

LeBrok
27-09-16, 00:41
Nice.

It was the other way.

proto-East Iranians Iranians from proto-BMAC culture from South Central Asia went to the Eastern Steppes and 'Iranized' the natives of the Andronovo horizon. We don't have genetic from this place, so lets not get ahead of ourselves.



Caucasian and Baloch components were brought into the Yamnaya Horzion by PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe. Those PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe were folks with 2 main components: Caucasian and Baloch.Baloch yes, we see lots of it in the Steppe, but Caucasian is barely trickling. It look like Iranian Farmers were mostly Baloch admixtures went to the Steppe. Caucasian, which I'm guessing is like Levant Neolithic here, came later and slowly trickled down through Caucasus. Look at Rise samples, not much Caucasian there. It means that at the time farmers of Maykop crosse the mountains they had mostly Baloch admixture and nothing else.


Afansevo can't be directly from Yamnaya Horizon (second stage of PIE) becasue there is not much of Caucasian auDNA there.Caucasian in this run is not Caucasian you expect. I think it must be Anatolian Neolithic, which came later to this area.



That means that there was a migration from the Iranian Plateau into the Steppes who Indo-Europized ( / Iranized ) native people of the Steppes. There was, nobody can deny it. In this run it shows in Baloch admixture in steppe people.

LeBrok
27-09-16, 00:51
HarappaWorld:
Added Sintashta, which is a better fit for Steppe invasion of South with their R1a Z-93 marker.


Admixture:
Zoran:
Arya:
Goga:
Irn1400s:
IrnCopperAge
Afansevo
Rise 509
Sintashta
Rise 395
Modern
Polish



Caucasian
40,79
40,88
40,84
45,47
49,91
2.03
0.00
10.05
Part of EEF


Baloch
27,95
29,33
27,86
26,89
37,82
29.56
17.64
7.47
Iranian Neolithic


SW-Asian
13,29
14,96
13,9
13,13
10,88
-

0.86
Semitic?


NE-Euro
4,3
4,75
3,92
7,27
-
63.24
58.44
57.25
EHG


Mediterranean
8,05
4,17
8,27
4,87
-
1.89
23.06
21.53
Part of EEF


S-Indian
2,99
3,71
2,23
1,23
1,05
-

0.62



Siberian
0,96
0,22
1,08
0,65
-
1.64

1.22



W-African
-
-
-
0,2
0,33
0.72
0.82





SE-Asian
-
0,27
0,57
0,18
-
-

0.54



Beringian
-
0,26
-
0,12
-
1.45

0.07



NE-Asian
-
0,39
-
-
-
-





Papuan
0,28
0,92
0,36
-
-
-





American
0,67
-
0,98
-
-
1.40





San
0,63
-
-
-
-
-





E-African
0,07
0,14
-
-
-
-





Pygmy
-
-
-
-
-
-

Goga
27-09-16, 01:10
We don't have genetic from this place, so lets not get ahead of ourselves.


Baloch yes, we see lots of it in the Steppe, but Caucasian is barely trickling. It look like Iranian Farmers were mostly Baloch admixtures went to the Steppe. Caucasian, which I'm guessing is like Levant Neolithic here, came later and slowly trickled down through Caucasus. Look at Rise samples, not much Caucasian there. It means that at the time farmers of Maykop crosse the mountains they had mostly Baloch admixture and nothing else.

Caucasian in this run is not Caucasian you expect. I think it must be Anatolian Neolithic, which came later to this area.


There was, nobody can deny it. In this run it shows in Baloch admixture in steppe people.
No, the first (original) wave of PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe who invaded and Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon were partly Caucasian, partly Baloch folks. Native Caucasian auDNA is actually bordering the Yamnaya Horizon. So it has be that a lot Caucasian auDNA entered the Yamnaya with the PIE. Even due to some geneflow from Caucasus there would be alot Caucasian component in Yamnaya Horzion. There is more Caucasians auDNA in Northern Caucasus (CHG !!!), than Baloch compotent.

So, I'm not sure about ratio between Caucasus-Baloch of PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe that entered the Yamnaya Horizon. It could be that at that time the ration of original PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe was in favor of Baloch component.

Caucasian component in Northern Caucasus is from CHG!!!

I'm sure that Y-DNA haplogroups R1a* and R1b* were correlated with that Baloch component.


Afanasevo culture is older than Sintashta culture. That's why I take Afanasevo as example.

Afanasevo = 2.03 % Caucasian and 25.56 % Baloch.

100 / (2.03 + 29.56 ) = 3.166
2.03 x 3.166 = 6.43
29.56 x 3.166 = 93.57

East Iranians from BMAC who invaded the Steppes and Iranized the Andronovo Horizion were for about 6.43 % Caucasian and 93.57 % Baloch, that makes sense since BMAC was located not far from Gedrosia/Hindu Kush area.

The ratio between Caucasian/Baloch of West Iranian folks like the Medes and Persians was much more balanced..

Goga
27-09-16, 01:13
HarappaWorld:
Added Sintashta, which is a better fit for Steppe invasion of South with their R1a Z-93 marker.
It is even chronologically impossible!!

proto-East Iranian BMAC culture from the Iranian Plateau is OLDER than Sintashta..

Goga
27-09-16, 01:35
about BMAC (Oxus culture) and Kopet-Dag. Kopet-Dag is an ancient prehistoric village located within BMAC and predate all Steppe Cultures by THOUSANDS of years!!!


" The ancient Oxus culture may have arisen at sites like Anau, a settlement at the base of the Kopet-Dag mountains, which dates back to 6500 B.C.

Pumpelly clung to his vision of an early civilization that thrived along the rivers flowing down from the Kopet-Dag. Years later, Soviet archaeologists working along the mountain foothills confirmed that as early as 6500 B.C., small bands of people were living in the Kopet-Dag, raising wheat and barley and grazing their sheep and goats on the mountains' foothills and slopes. That's a few thousand years after these grains were domesticated in the Near East but much earlier than most researchers had thought likely, supporting Pumpelly's view that Central Asian culture developed much sooner than commonly believed.


By 3000 B.C., the people of the Kopet-Dag had organized into walled towns. They used carts drawn by domesticated animals, and their pottery resembles the kind later found in Gonur. Many Soviet and Western archaeologists suspect that the Oxus civilization—at least in Margiana, the region in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan—evolved from this Kopet-Dag culture. "



http://discovermagazine.com/~/media/Images/Issues/2006/Nov/turk428.jpg?mw=900

8052

http://discovermagazine.com/2006/nov/ancient-towns-excavated-turkmenistan

Goga
27-09-16, 01:48
Many Soviet and Western archaeologists suspect that the Oxus civilization—at least in Margiana, the region in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan—evolved from this Kopet-Dag culture. "


http://discovermagazine.com/2006/nov/ancient-towns-excavated-turkmenistanAnd it is a FACT that ARYANS (proto-East Iranian speakers) who invaded INDIA came from BMAC area. They did not come from the Steppes, but from BMAC. And BMAC predate the Indo-Europized / Iranized cultures in the Steppes by THOUSANDS of years. So, those Aryans from BMAC who invaded India belonged mostly to a Caucasian-Baloch (Iranid / Irano-Afghano) race at the first place...

LeBrok
27-09-16, 03:52
No, the first (original) wave of PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe who invaded and Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon were partly Caucasian, partly Baloch folks. Native Caucasian auDNA is actually bordering the Yamnaya Horizon. So it has be that a lot Caucasian auDNA entered the Yamnaya with the PIE. Even due to some geneflow from Caucasus there would be alot Caucasian component in Yamnaya Horzion. There is more Caucasians auDNA in Northern Caucasus (CHG !!!), than Baloch compotent.You are confusing Caucasian region with Caucasian admixture in this run. It is not what usually we call Caucasian, like per Caucasian Hunter Gatherer. In this run it seems Caucasian is really Anatolian Neolithic.
What is the True Caucasian is actually called Baloch here, which is Iranian Neolithic and CHG, both almost identical anyway. So Baloch is True Caucasian, and what is called Caucasian is Anatolian Neolithic.


So, I'm not sure about ratio between Caucasus-Baloch of PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe that entered the Yamnaya Horizon. It could be that at that time the ration of original PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe was in favor of Baloch component. We can only say that Maykop brought part of PIE, especially farming technology. We don't know their language and religion.




Caucasian component in Northern Caucasus is from CHG!!!Again, it is called Baloch here, and it is as CHG as Iranian Neolithic.


I'm sure that Y-DNA haplogroups R1a* and R1b* were correlated with that Baloch component.Unless my R1b clade was found in Iran. ;)



Afanasevo culture is older than Sintashta culture. That's why I take Afanasevo as example.

Afanasevo = 2.03 % Caucasian and 25.56 % Baloch.


We just need to find genome of CHG or Iranian Neolithic guy in Gedmatch to solve the rest of the puzzle.

LeBrok
27-09-16, 04:02
about BMAC (Oxus culture) and Kopet-Dag. Kopet-Dag is an ancient prehistoric village located within BMAC and predate all Steppe Cultures by THOUSANDS of years!!!


" The ancient Oxus culture may have arisen at sites like Anau, a settlement at the base of the Kopet-Dag mountains, which dates back to 6500 B.C.

Pumpelly clung to his vision of an early civilization that thrived along the rivers flowing down from the Kopet-Dag. Years later, Soviet archaeologists working along the mountain foothills confirmed that as early as 6500 B.C., small bands of people were living in the Kopet-Dag, raising wheat and barley and grazing their sheep and goats on the mountains' foothills and slopes. That's a few thousand years after these grains were domesticated in the Near East but much earlier than most researchers had thought likely, supporting Pumpelly's view that Central Asian culture developed much sooner than commonly believed.


By 3000 B.C., the people of the Kopet-Dag had organized into walled towns. They used carts drawn by domesticated animals, and their pottery resembles the kind later found in Gonur. Many Soviet and Western archaeologists suspect that the Oxus civilization—at least in Margiana, the region in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan—evolved from this Kopet-Dag culture. "



http://discovermagazine.com/~/media/Images/Issues/2006/Nov/turk428.jpg?mw=900

8052

http://discovermagazine.com/2006/nov/ancient-towns-excavated-turkmenistan

Good, so farmers lived there in organized settlements. Then the army of horsemen came from north and conquered them like many other farming civilizations. You know, we have good records how an army of horsemen conquered half the world not that far back. The world of farmers with much bigger populations and money. They were called Mongols. Remember?

Goga
27-09-16, 04:40
You are confusing Caucasian region with Caucasian admixture in this run. It is not what usually we call Caucasian, like per Caucasian Hunter Gatherer. In this run it seems Caucasian is really Anatolian Neolithic.
What is the True Caucasian is actually called Baloch here, which is Iranian Neolithic and CHG, both almost identical anyway. So Baloch is True Caucasian, and what is called Caucasian is Anatolian Neolithic.
We can only say that Maykop brought part of PIE, especially farming technology. We don't know their language and religion.


Again, it is called Baloch here, and it is as CHG as Iranian Neolithic.

Unless my R1b clade was found in Iran. ;)


We just need to find genome of CHG or Iranian Neolithic guy in Gedmatch to solve the rest of the puzzle.
You are wrong big time. Now you revealed yourself that you understand anything about it. What you are saying is nothing but bull.


You are confused big time. CHG and Iranian Neolithic folks were 2 separate groups. Iosif Lazaridis study proved that. Maybe they were related to each other but they were separated. Caucasian component is at it's highest in Caucasus Mountains. Caucasian component peaks in the Caucasus Mountains. Caucasian component is highly related to CHG, period.


Anatolian farmers could have both Caucasian + Mediterranean component.

SW_Asian component is related to the Levant farmers, while Mediterranean component could be related to both of them, Levant & Anatolian Farmer.


Again you are very confused. Yamnaya Horizon folks were partly West Asian in nature and partly native (Indo-Europized) Steppe folks. West Asian PIE folks Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon. It has been proven by DNA, archeology etc..


They found some crazy ancient R1b in West Asia (Armenia, next to Iran) and those R1b lineages were ancestral to the Yamnaya R1b lineages. FACT!!!


In Iran they found some ancient Y-DNA P1 haplogroups. Where is P1 there has to be R1* and R2* haplogroups. Like, where is smoke there is fire. It is impossible that R1* evolved far way from P1.

Goga
27-09-16, 04:51
double post

Goga
27-09-16, 04:59
Good, so farmers lived there in organized settlements. Then the army of horsemen came from north and conquered them like many other farming civilizations. You know, we have good records how an army of horsemen conquered half the world not that far back. The world of farmers with much bigger populations and money. They were called Mongols. Remember?LMAO, you don't know what you are talking about. Well, if farmers in organized settlements were conquered how is it possible that they left so much of their DNA in the Steppes? There is so much of Iranian DNA in the Steppes that is obvious that the Steppe folks were invaded and conquered by the Iranians from the Iranian Plateau. They were only linguistically and culturally Iranized, but not fully genetically Iranizied, since they still kept for 66% of their native Steppe ancestry. Iranians/Aryans from BMAC left only 30% of their Aryan DNA in the Steppes and were later assimilated and their Aryan DNA was after some time diluted in the Steppes


It were the highly ADVANCED mighty Aryans (East Iranian speakers) from the (proto-)BMAC (Iranian Plateau) who brought some civilization into the Steppes. There are huge archeological evidences for that!


Those who were conquered by the Mongols, didn't left much of their genetic traces IN Mongolia, lol. Is there Arabian/Egyptian DNA in Mongolia??? But there IS Iranian DNA in the Steppes.


At that time there was MUCH MORE Iranian (Aryan) DNA in the Steppes (more than 30% !!), than vice versa (Steppes DNA in Iran). And now tell me, who conquered who? Who was just a passive receiver of DNA and who was the real active DONOR of the conquest DNA?


Y-DNA R1a entered the Steppes together with the MASSIVE amount of the Iranian auDNA. If R1a was not related to the Iranian auDNA (Gedrosia/Baloch/Hindu Kush), then what haplogorup could bring more than 30% of Iranian DNA in the Steppes? It has to be only R1a, there are no other options and haplogroup which we can take into consideration.



East Iranias / East Aryans were so highly sexual active in their conquest of the Steppes, that they left more that 30% of their DNA in the Steppes and R1a lineages with those more than 30% of their auDNA, this is a fact. This was unprecedented, even the Mongols couldn't do that thousands of years after them...

LeBrok
27-09-16, 05:51
You are wrong big time. Now you revealed yourself that you understand anything about it. What you are saying is nothing but bull.


You are confused big time. CHG and Iranian Neolithic folks were 2 separate groups. Iosif Lazaridis study proved that. Maybe they were related to each other but they were separated. Caucasian component is at it's highest in Caucasus Mountains. Caucasian component peaks in the Caucasus Mountains. Caucasian component is highly related to CHG, period.


Anatolian farmers could have both Caucasian + Mediterranean component.

SW_Asian component is related to the Levant farmers, while Mediterranean component could be related to both of them, Levant & Anatolian Farmer.


Again you are very confused. Yamnaya Horizon folks were partly West Asian in nature and partly native (Indo-Europized) Steppe folks. West Asian PIE folks Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon. It has been proven by DNA, archeology etc..


They found some crazy ancient R1b in West Asia (Armenia, next to Iran) and those R1b lineages were ancestral to the Yamnaya R1b lineages. FACT!!!


In Iran they found some ancient Y-DNA P1 haplogroups. Where is P1 there has to be R1* and R2* haplogroups. Like, where is smoke there is fire. It is impossible that R1* evolved far way from P1.
Put it finally through your thick skull that what is called Caucasian or South-West Asian in Lazaridis paper is not the same as the Caucasian or South-West Asian in this calculator. These are not universal terms!
How could you explain lack of S-W Asian and low level of Caucasian in Yamnaya/Catacomb Rise 552! Same goes to Afansievo and Sintashta. Can you see it, or you just pretend you can read and understand these calculator runs?

LeBrok
27-09-16, 06:16
LMAO, you don't know what you are talking about. Well, if farmers in organized settlements were conquered how is it possible that they left so much of their DNA in the Steppes? There is so much of Iranian DNA in the Steppes that is obvious that the Steppe folks were invaded and conquered by the Iranians from the Iranian Plateau. They were only linguistically and culturally Iranized, but not fully genetically Iranizied, since they still kept for 66% of their native Steppe ancestry. Iranians/Aryans from BMAC left only 30% of their Aryan DNA in the Steppes and were later assimilated and their Aryan DNA was after some time diluted in the Steppes


It were the highly ADVANCED mighty Aryans (East Iranian speakers) from the (proto-)BMAC (Iranian Plateau) who brought some civilization into the Steppes. There are huge archeological evidences for that!


Those who were conquered by the Mongols, didn't left much of their genetic traces IN Mongolia, lol. Is there Arabian/Egyptian DNA in Mongolia??? But there IS Iranian DNA in the Steppes.


At that time there was MUCH MORE Iranian (Aryan) DNA in the Steppes (more than 30% !!), than vice versa (Steppes DNA in Iran). And now tell me, who conquered who? Who was just a passive receiver of DNA and who was the real active DONOR of the conquest DNA?


Y-DNA R1a entered the Steppes together with the MASSIVE amount of the Iranian auDNA. If R1a was not related to the Iranian auDNA (Gedrosia/Baloch/Hindu Kush), then what haplogorup could bring more than 30% of Iranian DNA in the Steppes? It has to be only R1a, there are no other options and haplogroup which we can take into consideration.



East Iranias / East Aryans were so highly sexual active in their conquest of the Steppes, that they left more that 30% of their DNA in the Steppes and R1a lineages with those more than 30% of their auDNA, this is a fact. This was unprecedented, even the Mongols couldn't do that thousands of years after them...
Oh you didn't get how it went yet? We have all the puzzle pieces in place, well almost. Have a listen:
First Iranian Farmers went through Caucasus and settled in the Steppe around European Hunter Gatherers. Iranian Farmers brought Caucasus admixture (here called Baloch) and HGs where EHG kind (here as NE Europeans) They mixed together, became herders/farmers and domesticated horses. Their genetic example here is Rise 552, basically half NE European and half Baloch+Caucasian. Once they learned how to ride horses and move across the steppe they started spreading and conquering. That's how they brought Baloch-Caucasian to the rest of Asia and Europe. They also migrated and conquered South Asia as Indo-Aryans. They are the cause of NE European admixture in Iran today and since the Bronze Age. Check Iran1400 sample, having over 7% of it. For comparison check the Copper Age Iranian sample. It doesn't have NE European at all! Why is that? That's because Indo-Aryan invaded Iran during Bronze Age. So, it makes a lot of sense that the copper/neolithic Iranian guy couldn't have NE European admixture yet. He live before the invasion.
I hope it will help you imagine how it all went down.

Goga
27-09-16, 06:23
Put it finally through your thick skull that what is called Caucasian or South-West Asian in Lazaridis paper is not the same as the Caucasian or South-West Asian in this calculator. These are not universal terms!
How could you explain lack of S-W Asian and low level of Caucasian in Yamnaya/Catacomb Rise 552! Same goes to Afansievo and Sintashta. Can you see it, or you just pretend you can read and understand these calculator runs?OMG. You don't understand anything.

If Afansievo and Sintashta are not the same as Yamnaya, then it is a great evidence that Yamnaya never Indo-Europized Afansievo & Sintashta. Afansievo & Sintashta were NEVER directly Indo-Europized by the Maykop/Leyla Tepe folks. It was Yamnaya that was DIRECTLY Indo-Europized by Maykop/Leyla Tepe.


And Yamnaya was Indo-Europized by people from Leyla-Tepe and not by people from Northern Caucasus.


And we are using just 1 calculator, maybe other calculators would be better and will tell a different story! Dont rely on just 1 calculator!


What don't you understand??


According to Population Spreadsheet for HarappaWorld

Abhkasian (Northern Caucasians) have 69.15 % Caucasian and 18.49 % Baloch.


http://s15.postimg.org/bxklyvxe3/abc.jpg


8054


Are you saying that Abhkasians who live in the NORHTERN Caucasus are ONLY 18.49% CHG and 69.15 % Anatolian Farmers. This is definitely a very stupid thing to say.


Sindhi from INDIA !!! score only 9.68 % Caucasian and 46.18 % Baloch? Are you saying that Sindhi from INDIA are MORE CHG than Abhkasians from NORHTERN Caucasus?


Abhkasian from Northern Caucasus : Caucasian = 69.15 vs. Baloch = 9.68 %
Sindhi from India : Caucasian = 9.68 % vs. Baloch 46.18 %


So according to YOU Sindhi are more CHG than Abhkasians who are actually native to Northern Caucasus. This is crazy..


Are you from real??

Fire Haired14
27-09-16, 06:24
Goga, Iran Neolithic wasn't the same as modern Iranians just as Europe Neolithic isn't the same as modern Europeans. 50% or more of Iranian's ancestry is from different sources, mostly people related to Anatolia Neolithic. Don't treat them as the same people as modern Iranians or any nearby people(Kurds). Stop with the Iranian-supremacist bull shit. No matter how often your fantasies are proven incorrect you stick to them, it is very annoying. Why do you copy the idea of a superior Aryan race from white supremacist? You're copying from your enemies. Kurds are just people, they're not superior to anyone.

LeBrok
27-09-16, 06:35
OMG. You don't understand anything.

If Afansievo and Sintashta are not the same as Yamnaya, then it is a great evidence that Yamnaya never Indo-Europized Afansievo & Sintashta.


What don't you understand??


According to Population Spreadsheet for HarappaWorld

Abhkasian (Northern Caucasians) have 69.15 % Caucasian and 18.49 % Baloch.


http://s15.postimg.org/bxklyvxe3/abc.jpg
8054


Are you saying that Abhkasians who live in the NORHTERN Caucasus are ONLY 18.49% CHG?

Sindhi from INDIA !!! score only 9.68 % Caucasian and 46.18 % Baloch? Are you saying that Sindhi from INDIA are MORE CHG than Abhkasians from NORHTERN Caucasus?



Are you from real??
Never mind Sintashta.

Tell me why Yamnaya/Catacomb, the guy who lived just behind Caucasus-Rise 552, is so low on Caucasian admixture in this run? Should it be at 50% not mere 6? Tell us how you make sense out of it?

LeBrok
27-09-16, 06:38
Goga, Iran Neolithic wasn't the same as modern Iranians just as Europe Neolithic isn't the same as modern Europeans. 50% or more of Iranian's ancestry is from different sources, mostly people related to Anatolia Neolithic. Don't treat them as the same people as modern Iranians or any nearby people(Kurds). Stop with the Iranian-supremacist bull shit. No matter how often your fantasies are proven incorrect you stick to them, it is very annoying. Why do you copy the idea of a superior Aryan race from white supremacist? You're copying from your enemies. Kurds are just people, they're not superior to anyone.
I'm so regretting we don't have Iranian Neolithic guy in this calculator. Things would become obvious even for Goga.

Goga
27-09-16, 06:46
Oh you didn't get how it went yet? We have all the puzzle pieces in place, well almost. Have a listen:
First Iranian Farmers went through Caucasus and settled in the Steppe around European Hunter Gatherers. Iranian Farmers brought Caucasus admixture (here called Baloch) and HGs where EHG kind (here as NE Europeans) They mixed together, became herders/farmers and domesticated horses. Their genetic example here is Rise 552, basically half NE European and half Baloch+Caucasian. Once they learned how to ride horses and move across the steppe they started spreading and conquering. That's how they brought Baloch-Caucasian to the rest of Asia and Europe. They also migrated and conquered South Asia as Indo-Aryans. They are the cause of NE European admixture in Iran today and since the Bronze Age. Check Iran1400 sample, having over 7% of it. For comparison check the Copper Age Iranian sample. It doesn't have NE European at all! Why is that? That's because Indo-Aryan invaded Iran during Bronze Age. So, it makes a lot of sense that the copper/neolithic Iranian guy couldn't have NE European admixture yet. He live before the invasion.
I hope it will help you imagine how it all went down.Only in YOUR dreams it was this way? It is a wishful thinking of the Eurocentric Europeans and wannabe Aryans and racist who can handle the real truth.

What happened was NOT that difficult. It was much simpler.


Leyla Tepe Proto-Indo-Europeans migrated into the Yamnaya Horzin from the Maykop culture. They Indo-Europized the Yamnaya folks of the Steppes. Than those Indo-Europized Yamnaaya folks invaded Europe.



Afansievo, Sintashta etc. never got Indo-Eurpized by Yamnaya folks. Native Afansievo / Sintashta folks were not Indo-Europeans at all, and definately not Iranian, not by language, not by culture and not by race.


Only LATER the Eastern Steppes cultures were Iranized by Aryans from the Iranian Plateau/BMAC. Aryans of BMAC/Iranian Plateau were much more advanced than primitive folks of the Steppes.

This was the case. And now we have GENETIC evidences for this.

http://i47.tinypic.com/10dsaoh.png


8055

Goga
27-09-16, 06:58
Goga, Iran Neolithic wasn't the same as modern Iranians just as Europe Neolithic isn't the same as modern Europeans. 50% or more of Iranian's ancestry is from different sources, mostly people related to Anatolia Neolithic. Don't treat them as the same people as modern Iranians or any nearby people(Kurds). Stop with the Iranian-supremacist bull shit. No matter how often your fantasies are proven incorrect you stick to them, it is very annoying.Listen dude, I'm not 100% like those fellas of Iran Neolithic. Nobody is. But what I'm trying to say is that those people came from the Iranian Plateau. I'm talking about the migration patters and migration routes and URHEIMAT of original PIE and Aryan (Iranid) folks.

And it was NOT in the Steppes and not in Europe.

Iranian language evolved on the Iranian Plateau and NOT in the Steppes.


Why do you copy the idea of a superior Aryan race from white supremacist? You're copying from your enemies. Kurds are just people, they're not superior to anyone.Those wannabe Aryans are not my enemies. I'm not Semitic and I'm not a Jew.

They want to be like me and want to have my history. My people the Medes, were the only one who called themselves the Aryans and were the true Aryans who found the real Great Aryan Empire.


Those wannabe Aryans are stealing MY history and are talking about MY ancestors. Of course I will denounce and fight their lies. Because they do lie about ME and my history and my mighty Aryan ancestors.

At the first day they will stop trying to steal my history, I'll stop to fight them. I'm not trying to steal their history, they are trying to steal MY history.


The Medes were the ORIGINAL Aryan people and they were native to the Iranian Plateau, period!

LeBrok
27-09-16, 07:01
Only in YOUR dreams it was this way? It is a wishful thinking of the Eurocentric Europeans and wannabe Aryans and racist who can handle the real truth.

What happened was NOT that difficult. It was much simpler.


Leyla Tepe Proto-Indo-Europeans migrated into the Yamnaya Horzin from the Maykop culture. They Indo-Europized the Yamnaya folks of the Steppes. Than those Indo-Europized Yamnaaya folks invaded Europe.



Afansievo, Sintashta etc. never got Indo-Eurpized by Yamnaya folks. Native Afansievo / Sintashta folks were not Indo-Europeans at all, and definately not Iranian, not by language, not by culture and not by race.


Only LATER the Eastern Steppes cultures were Iranized by Aryans from the Iranian Plateau/BMAC. Aryans of BMAC/Iranian Plateau were much more advanced than primitive folks of the Steppes.

This was the case. And now we have GENETIC evidences for this.

http://i47.tinypic.com/10dsaoh.png


8055
Leave your fantasies alone and let's talk empirical evidence. Again how can you explain this, because I have a hunch that you don't understand this calculator at all:
Tell me why Yamnaya/Catacomb, the guy who lived just behind Caucasus-Rise 552, is so low on Caucasian admixture in this run? Should it be at 50%, as per Lazaridis, not mere 6? Tell us how you make sense out of it?

Goga
27-09-16, 07:18
Leave your fantasies alone and let's talk empirical evidence. Again how can you explain this, because I have a hunch that you don't understand this calculator at all:
Tell me why Yamnaya/Catacomb, the guy who lived just behind Caucasus-Rise 552, is so low on Caucasian admixture in this run? Should it be at 50%, as per Lazaridis, not mere 6? Tell us how you make sense out of it?Very EASY.


First of all like I wrote earlier we are using only 1 calculator. Maybe other calculators would be better and a show us a better and different picture.


You don't get it, man. What is wrong with you? You think like a child. You are blinded by your willingness to be somebody else. Be proud of you are and simply don't try to steal history of other people.



According to Population Spreadsheet for HarappaWorld:

Abhkasian from Northern Caucasus : Caucasian = 69.15 vs. Baloch = 9.68 %
Sindhi from India : Caucasian = 9.68 % vs. Baloch 46.18 %


And according to YOU Sindhi are more CHG than Abhkasians who are actually native to Northern Caucasus. Are Abhkasians only 9.68 % CHG? Really? Are you serious? OPENYOUR EYESS!!!



Yamnaya/Catacomb folks were NEVER Indo-Europized by CHG folks. Yamnaya Horzion was Indo-Europized by people from Leyla Tepe / Iranian Plateua via Maykop.
There are many evidences that culture of Maykop was closely related to Leyla Tepe.


" It has been suggested that the Leyla-Tepe were the founders of the Maykop culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture).

The culture has also been linked to the north Ubaid period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubaid_period) monuments,[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture#cite_note-.D0.93.D1.83.D0.BF-4) in particular, with the settlements in the Eastern Anatolia Region (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Anatolia_Region) (Arslantepe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arslantepe), Coruchu-tepe, Tepechik, etc.).
An expedition to Syria by the Russian Academy of Sciences (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Academy_of_Sciences) revealed the similarity of the Maykop and Leyla-Tepe artifacts with those found recently while excavating the ancient city of Tel Khazneh I, from the 4th millennium BC "


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture

http://www.paleog.ru/hazna.html





It was all from Leyla Tepe / Iranian Plateau. They were the same people who brought CIVILIZATION to the Mesopotamia and Egypt.


People from Leyla Tepe/Iranian Plateau went through Northern Caucasus/Maykop and from there they migrated and Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon.



P1, R*, R2, R1*, R1b* and R1a* are not related to CHG. (Caucasian)
P1, R*, R2, R1*, R1b* and R1a* are related to the Iranian Plateau folks. (Gedrosia, Balcoh, Hindu Kush)

Goga
27-09-16, 07:36
I'm so regretting we don't have Iranian Neolithic guy in this calculator. Things would become obvious even for Goga.
Very simple. I see a very clear pattern. Folks from Iran more closer to the prehistoric times are getting more Gedrosia. So, pure Iranian Neolithic people would be mostly Gedrosia/Baloch/Hindu Kush people. Nothing to do with the Steppes.

Later on, actually during very recently, only 2000 years ago, there was some back migration of East Iranized Scythians from the Steppes who migrated into the Median Empire / West Asia and those brought some Steppe ancestry with them. Again, nothing to do with PIE and proto-Indo-Iranians. But it was not much and much, much less than Indo-Europeans from the Iranian Plateau who left their Iranian/Indo-European DNA in the Steppes..

LeBrok
27-09-16, 08:03
Very EASY.


First of all like I wrote earlier we are using only 1 calculator. Maybe other calculators would be better and a show us a better and different picture.


You don't get it, man. What is wrong with you? You think like a child. You are blinded by your willingness to be somebody else. Be proud of you are and simply don't try to steal history of other people.

Oh, you don't like the calculator, lol, tough lack. The world is not what you like it to be. In the real world you learn how it works from the data.
Now we know that you don't have a clue and don't have an explanation to my question. You have no idea what are the admixtures here, and you confusing them with Lazaridis ones.
No problem then for you to imagine your perfect fantasy world.
Then you went straight to insults. Not nice.

Goga
27-09-16, 08:17
Oh, you don't like the calculator, lol, tough lack. The world is not what you like it to be. In the real world you learn how it works from the data.
Now we know that you don't have a clue and don't have an explanation to my question. You have no idea what are the admixtures here, and you confusing them with Lazaridis ones.
No problem then for you to imagine your perfect fantasy world.
Then you went straight to insults. Not nice.
I did not insult you. You gave me an infraction for nothing. Like always, how cute.

I gave a correct answer to your question and now you can't counter it.


My answer was that Indo-Europeans from Maykop who Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon were not CHG folks, but they came originally from Leyla Tepe and were therefore native Iranid people full of Gedrosia/Baloch/Hindu Kush auDNA. R1b was not related to CHG, but to the Iranian Plateau.
The same people who came from Leyla Tepe, brought also civilization in the Mesopotamia and Egypt. Those folks were the true civilization builders.


According to YOU Sindhi are more CHG than Abhkasians who are actually native to Northern Caucasus. Because Sindhi from India have more Baloch auDNA, while Abhkasian from Northern Caucasus have only 9.68 % Baloch and 69.15 !!! Caucasian. I mean, really?

Abhkasian : Caucasian = 69.15 vs. Baloch = 9.68 %
Sindhi : Caucasian = 9.68 % vs. Baloch 46.18 %


And now you're talking about the lala lulaby worlds.



When my people know that they are on the right side and when we are speaking the truth we never give up. We are fighting for thousands of years and we never give up. You should have studied our history and learned something from it.
As long as I'm on the right side and speaking in accordance with science, the truth and have enough knowledge about the topic, I will NEVER give up and will fight the lies on internet.

Tomenable
27-09-16, 08:30
LeBrok, Goga:

Iran Neolithic samples are on Gedmatch as well:

http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=8462.0

(http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=8462.0)http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html

From the first link (forum molgen):

I1290-IranN - Gedmatch kit M967114
I1671-IranLN - Gedmatch kit M937770

=====================

When using HarappaWorld calculator:

Kit M967114 (Iran Neolithic):

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Baloch
62.71


2
Caucasian
24.97


3
S-Indian
6.13


4
SW-Asian
3.88


5
W-African
1.78


6
Papuan
0.35


7
San
0.18



Kit M937770 (Iran Late Neolithic):

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Baloch
56.25


2
Caucasian
32.91


3
SW-Asian
8


4
S-Indian
2.64


5
Pygmy
0.21

LeBrok
27-09-16, 10:23
HarappaWorld:
Comparing Goga (Pure Aryan) with Ancient Iranian (supposed source of IEs)



Admixture:
Zoran:
Arya:
Goga:
Iranian
Neolithic
IrnCopperAge
Afansevo
Rise 509


Caucasian
40,79
40,88
40,84
24.97
49.91
2.03


Baloch
27,95
29,33
27,86
62.71
37,82
29.56


SW-Asian
13,29
14,96
13,9
3.88
10.88
-


NE-Euro
4,3
4,75
3,92
0
-
63.24


Mediterranean
8,05
4,17
8,27
0
-
1.89


S-Indian
2,99
3,71
2,23
6.13
1.05
-


Siberian
0,96
0,22
1,08
0
-
1.64


W-African
-
-
-
1.78
0.33
0.72


SE-Asian
-
0,27
0,57
0
-
-


Beringian
-
0,26
-
0
-
1.45


NE-Asian
-
0,39
-
0
-
-


Papuan
0,28
0,92
0,36
0.35
-
-


American
0,67
-
0,98
0
-
1.40


San
0,63
-
-
0.18
-
-


E-African
0,07
0,14
-
0
-
-


Pygmy
-
-
-
0
-





Listen dude, I'm not 100% like those fellas of Iran Neolithic.
Not even close.
You and Neolithic guy are like from different planets. Your fantazy about purity of "your" race is gone. The hard truth of dynamic and ever changing world is obvious. Lots of mixing and remixing happened since.

A. Papadimitriou
27-09-16, 11:07
HarappaWorld:
Comparing Goga (Pure Aryan) with Ancient Iranian (supposed source of IEs)



Admixture:
Zoran:
Arya:
Goga:
Iranian
Neolithic
IrnCopperAge
Afansevo
Rise 509


Caucasian
40,79
40,88
40,84
24.97
49.91
2.03


Baloch
27,95
29,33
27,86
62.71
37,82
29.56


SW-Asian
13,29
14,96
13,9
3.88
10.88
-


NE-Euro
4,3
4,75
3,92
0
-
63.24


Mediterranean
8,05
4,17
8,27
0
-
1.89


S-Indian
2,99
3,71
2,23
6.13
1.05
-


Siberian
0,96
0,22
1,08
0
-
1.64


W-African
-
-
-
1.78
0.33
0.72


SE-Asian
-
0,27
0,57
0
-
-


Beringian
-
0,26
-
0
-
1.45


NE-Asian
-
0,39
-
0
-
-


Papuan
0,28
0,92
0,36
0.35
-
-


American
0,67
-
0,98
0
-
1.40


San
0,63
-
-
0.18
-
-


E-African
0,07
0,14
-
0
-
-


Pygmy
-
-
-
0
-





Not even close.
You and Neolithic guy are like from different planets. Your fantazy about purity of "your" race is gone. The hard truth of dynamic and ever changing world is obvious. Lots of mixing and remixing happened since.

He's close to Iran Copper Age. There's more continuity almost everywhere that what many would have supposed, although what you said is also true.

People who believe that Afanasevo was Proto-Iranian are delusional.

Tomenable
27-09-16, 17:30
Kit M381564 (Iran Iron Age, 971-832 BC):

HarappaWorld - Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasian
47.6


2
Baloch
29.17


3
SW-Asian
13.43


4
Mediterranean
6.66


5
NE-Euro
3.01


6
W-African
0.11


7
Pygmy
0.03



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Kurd (xing)
4.36


2
Kurd (yunusbayev)
4.4


3
Kurd (harappa)
7.61


4
Iranian (harappa)
8.38


5
Iranian (behar)
9.29




So now we have a lot of Iranians to compare with each other:

Neolithic, Late Neolithic, Copper Age, Iron Age, Medieval and modern Iranians.

Only a Bronze Age Iranian is still missing.

LeBrok
27-09-16, 18:55
Kit M381564 (Iran Iron Age, 971-832 BC):

HarappaWorld - Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasian
47.6


2
Baloch
29.17


3
SW-Asian
13.43


4
Mediterranean
6.66


5
NE-Euro
3.01


6
W-African
0.11


7
Pygmy
0.03



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Kurd (xing)
4.36


2
Kurd (yunusbayev)
4.4


3
Kurd (harappa)
7.61


4
Iranian (harappa)
8.38


5
Iranian (behar)
9.29



So now we have a lot of Iranians to compare with each other:

Neolithic, Late Neolithic, Copper Age, Iron Age, Medieval and modern Iranians.

Only a Bronze Age Iranian is still missing. Seems like Kurds changed the least in the area from Iron Age, though Iranians drifted quite a bit.

A. Papadimitriou
27-09-16, 19:35
There's continuity since the Copper Age. Mediterranean and NE Euro slightly increase in Iron Age. A few samples aren't enough but let's assume that they are represantative.

So:
1) Either the languages are native there (I don't believe that)
2) or some people with mostly Caucasian and some South West Asian admixture brought IE during the Copper Age
3) or some people with Mediterranean (~2/3) and NE Euro (~1/3) admixture brought IE after the Copper Age

Baloch admixture peaks in Brahui people, Baloch etc
Caucasian admixture peaks in Georgians, Abkhasians etc
NE Euro admixture peaks in Finnish, Lithuanians etc
Mediterranean admixture peaks in Sardinians, Basque etc
SW Asian admixture peaks in Saudis, Bedouins etc

Baloch decreases though, so I think it's unlikely that the culture which brought IE had it.

[I personally don't accept kurgan theory at all, though I believe Western 'steppes' were IE]

LeBrok
27-09-16, 19:35
HarappaWorld:
Genetic transformation and similarities of Iranians through times.



Admixture:
Goga:
Iranian
Medieval
Iranian
Iron Age
Iranian
Copper
Age
Iranian
Late
Neolithic
Iranian
Neolithic
Source
of
Admixtures


Caucasian
40,84
45.47
47.6
49.91
32.91
24.97
Mostly in CHG


Baloch
27,86
26.89
29.17
37,82
56.25
62.71
Mostly in Iranian Farmer


SW-Asian
13,9
13.13
13.43
10.88
8.00
3.88
Mostly in Natufians


NE-Euro
3,92
7.27
3.01
0
0
0
EHG


Mediterranean
8,27
4.87
6.66
0
0
0
Anatolian EF/20% in WHG


S-Indian
2,23
1.23
0
1.05
2.64
6.13



Siberian
1,08
0.65
0
0
0
0



W-African
0
0.20
0.11
0.33
0
1.78



SE-Asian
0,57
0.57
0
0
0
0



Beringian
0
0.12
0
0
0
0



NE-Asian
0
0
0
0
0
0



Papuan
0,36
0
0.35
0
0
0.35



American
0,98
0
0
0
0
0



San
0
0
0
0
0
0.18



E-African
0
0
0
0
0
0



Pygmy
0
0
0.03
0
0.21
0

Tomenable
27-09-16, 19:54
There's continuity since the Copper Age.

If not counting ~15% of European-like admixture after the Copper Age (migration from Bronze Age Steppe?).

Later also some Siberian-East Asian and African after 1400 AD (Timurid invasion added East Asian-Siberian?):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty

Here is a comparison with use of Dodecad K12b calculator:

http://s17.postimg.org/vj5yem6jz/Iranians.png

http://s17.postimg.org/vj5yem6jz/Iranians.png

^^^
By the way, Arya is of Bakhtiari descent (they are a Lurish tribe from South-Western Iran):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakhtiari_people

Goga
27-09-16, 20:47
If not counting ~15% of European-like admixture after the Copper Age (migration from Bronze Age Steppe?).

Later also some Siberian-East Asian and African after 1400 AD (Timurid invasion added East Asian-Siberian?):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty

Here is a comparison with use of Dodecad K12b calculator:

http://s17.postimg.org/vj5yem6jz/Iranians.png

http://s17.postimg.org/vj5yem6jz/Iranians.png

^^^
By the way, Arya is of Bakhtiari descent (they are a Lurish tribe from South-Western Iran):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakhtiari_people

Thank you for your work man! You did a great job!

As people know I ever said that I'm a direct descent of unevolved prehistoric 10,000 years old Iranian Farmer, lol. Over time people are changing and evolving andmixing with others.

What I said is that Kurds are DIRECT descendants of the Medes. The Medes lived in the Iron Age in Media/Persian/Iran. Kurds and Kurdish language are NATIVE to their homeland.

Era before the Iron Age, the Bronze age was an era of the Medes, Persians, Cimmerians, Alanians, Scythians and other Iranians in Kurdistan.

Bronze Age was also an age when the Scythians from the Steppes migrated into the Media/Kurdistan, the land of the Medes. Those people migrated and settled down in Media/Kurdistan. And by the time when some Scythians arrived they brought Atlantic-Med and Northern Europe componentswith them. I think that most Steppe ancestry in Kurdistan is from the Bronze Age belonged to Steppe people who settled down in Media.


Scythian stelae in Hakkari (Central Kurdistan)

http://s4.postimg.org/eml72ydod/6088941772_a1a3b58aee.jpg
http://s4.postimg.org/ol65pfn3x/37546902074c97dfd9d5ae5a80b21991.jpg
http://s4.postimg.org/nmpsn59rx/PKKstele.jpghttp://s4.postimg.org/wggp48wql/kurg8.jpg

http://s4.postimg.org/mun4ny5kt/Hakkari.jpg

80568057805880598060

Coriolan
27-09-16, 22:14
Goga, Iran Neolithic wasn't the same as modern Iranians just as Europe Neolithic isn't the same as modern Europeans. 50% or more of Iranian's ancestry is from different sources, mostly people related to Anatolia Neolithic. Don't treat them as the same people as modern Iranians or any nearby people(Kurds). Stop with the Iranian-supremacist bull shit. No matter how often your fantasies are proven incorrect you stick to them, it is very annoying. Why do you copy the idea of a superior Aryan race from white supremacist? You're copying from your enemies. Kurds are just people, they're not superior to anyone.
Really, Iranians aren't superior to everyone else? But look at Goga, a fine representative of that proud Aryan race; hasn't genetic data confirmed times and again that his supremacist fantasies were true, er, fantasies - as no sane and intelligent person could have doubted. [emoji624]

Sent from my LG-D855 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

A. Papadimitriou
27-09-16, 23:39
If not counting ~15% of European-like admixture after the Copper Age (migration from Bronze Age Steppe?).

Later also some Siberian-East Asian and African after 1400 AD (Timurid invasion added East Asian-Siberian?):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty

Here is a comparison with use of Dodecad K12b calculator:

http://s17.postimg.org/vj5yem6jz/Iranians.png

http://s17.postimg.org/vj5yem6jz/Iranians.png

^^^
By the way, Arya is of Bakhtiari descent (they are a Lurish tribe from South-Western Iran):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakhtiari_people

Probably a migration after the Copper Age brought Mediterranean & NE Euro. (SW Asian increases also after the Copper Age too. I didn't see it before). For me, these people could have been IE but not necessarily, since both components are found in non-IE people too and peak in Finnish people and Basques respectively. And we don't know if they were a single mixed group or multiple unrelated groups. SW Asian peaks in Saudis. 'Baloch' peaks in some Brahuis probably who speak Dravidian, then Balochs. Caucasian in Kartvelian speakers.
But there's 'continuity' in the sense that there wasn't any massive population replacement.
The Timurids may have brought extra Siberian, East Asian, minor North / South East Asian? but also NE Euro too imo since it existed in the Steppes.

A sample from Neolithic Hungary I found while googling.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wJtrUmC6i94/VFbfY5lnokI/AAAAAAAAeyI/n-uueMFGIWE/s1600/HarappaWorld.PNG

So, SW Asian too existed in Europe.

Neolithic to Copper Age Iran
Caucasian +24,97
SW Asian +3,88

Copper Age to Iron Age Iran
Mediterranean +6,66
NE Euro +3,01
SW Asian +2,55

Sorry if I made any mistakes.

LeBrok
28-09-16, 17:16
Probably a migration after the Copper Age brought Mediterranean & NE Euro. (SW Asian increases also after the Copper Age too. I didn't see it before). For me, these people could have been IE but not necessarily, since both components are found in non-IE people too and peak in Finnish people and Basques respectively. And we don't know if they were a single mixed group or multiple unrelated groups. SW Asian peaks in Saudis. 'Baloch' peaks in some Brahuis probably who speak Dravidian, then Balochs. Caucasian in Kartvelian speakers.
But there's 'continuity' in the sense that there wasn't any massive population replacement.
The Timurids may have brought extra Siberian, East Asian, minor North / South East Asian? but also NE Euro too imo since it existed in the Steppes.

A sample from Neolithic Hungary I found while googling.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wJtrUmC6i94/VFbfY5lnokI/AAAAAAAAeyI/n-uueMFGIWE/s1600/HarappaWorld.PNG

So, SW Asian too existed in Europe.

Neolithic to Copper Age Iran
Caucasian +24,97
SW Asian +3,88

Copper Age to Iron Age Iran
Mediterranean +6,66
NE Euro +3,01
SW Asian +2,55

Sorry if I made any mistakes.
SW Asian is highest in Natufians, it is their signature admixture.

LeBrok
28-09-16, 18:51
I wonder if we should open a new thread for Harappa Admixture and move related posts there.

Goga
28-09-16, 19:02
A sample from Neolithic Hungary I found while googling.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wJtrUmC6i94/VFbfY5lnokI/AAAAAAAAeyI/n-uueMFGIWE/s1600/HarappaWorld.PNG

I do like Dodacad K12b more. Maciamo is using this calculator for his maps.


So, here are the results of that person from Neolithic Hungary:

http://s21.postimg.org/c4bo5m4kn/Naamloos.jpg

8061

LeBrok
28-09-16, 22:29
Here are the source/ancient best matching populations of Harappa admixtures:



Admixtures
Iranian Neolithic
10,000 Years Ago
CHG
13KYA
Natufian
13 KYA
EHG Samara
7.5 KYA
Anatolian EF
8 KYA
WHG
Hungary K01
7.5 KYA
EEF
Stuttgart
7.5 KYA
Yamnaya
Rise 522
4.5 KYA


S-Indian
6.13
0.62








Baloch
62.71
36.63

14.33



33.24


Caucasian
24.97
54.15
13.98

37.64

30.6
6.58


NE-Euro

3.84

71.08
0.86
82.06
7.82
56.02


SE-Asian

0.59








Siberian

0.77








NE-Asian










Papuan
0.35

0.68


0.2




American



6.89



2.46


Beringian



1.7



0.75


Mediterranean


27.39

47.24
17.44
49.46



SW-Asian
3.88

53.62

14.00

12.01



San
0.18





0.11



E-African


4.33







Pygmy

0.25








W-African
1.78
3.01

0.13
0.27
0.26

0.98


Some observation:
Baloch is maxed out in Iranian Neolithic population, and 1/3 in CHG. Interestingly it exists also in EHG. In EHG it didn't come from INF or CHG because EHG lacks Caucasian admixture. It must be ancient?
Caucasian is highest in Caucasian Hunter Gatherer, and spills over to Natufians and Iranian Early Farmers. But it didn't spill over Caucasus mountain to European Hunter Gatherer. This is rather surprising.
Caucasian admixture is seen first time on other side of Caucasus in Yamnaya sample. Proportions of Baloch and Caucasian in Yamnaya point of its mediation from Iranian Farmers and not from CHG.
South West Asian admixture is highest in Natufian, which is almost not found in CHG or Iranian farmer. This admixture can easily identify Natufian genes.
Mediterranean admixture is highest in Anatolia. It also is part Natufian and in part WHG as we can see it in Hungarian Hunter gatherer at almost 20% level.

LeBrok
28-09-16, 22:47
Here is something very interesting, genomes of Kostenki and Mal'ta boy which are very connected to ancient populations of this region:



Admixtures
Kostenki
Black Sea
36 KYA
Mal'ta boy
Siberia
24 KYA
Notes


S-Indian
13.18
10.13



Baloch
12.49
24.09
Early Iranian Farmer admixture mostly but also found in EHG.


Caucasian
0.00
0.00
CHG mostly


NE-Euro
29.02
40.14
EHG and most of WHG/ANE


SE-Asian
4.28




Siberian
1.75




NE-Asian





Papuan
5.16
0.7



American
3.32
17.71



Beringian
1.43
6.74



Mediterranean
18.76
0.00
Anatolian EF and WHG mix


SW-Asian
5.89
0.00
Mostly Natufian


San
1.24
0.3



E-African
1.82




Pygmy
0.92
0.19



W-African
0.73




Mal'ta contains only Baloch and NE Euro. Pretty much what was present in EHG, and likewise they miss Mediterranean and SW-Asian.
Kostenki lived north of Black Sea area though much earlier. It contains all the admixtures, even in relation to Natufians, but it is missing Caucasian admixture, same as Mal'ta boy. It seems that Caucasian admixture was a late arrival to the area. These two have even a connection to S-Indian but not to Caucasian?! Where did Caucasian come from?

Goga
29-09-16, 02:10
Here is something very interesting, genomes of Kostenki and Mal'ta boy which are very connected to ancient populations of this region:



Admixtures
Kostenki
Black Sea
36 KYA
Mal'ta boy
Siberia
24 KYA
Notes


S-Indian
13.18
10.13



Baloch
12.49
24.09
Early Iranian Farmer admixture mostly


Caucasian
0.00
0.00
CHG mostly


NE-Euro
29.02
40.14
EHG and most of WHG/ANE


SE-Asian
4.28




Siberian
1.75




NE-Asian





Papuan
5.16
0.7



American
3.32
17.71



Beringian
1.43
6.74



Mediterranean
18.76
0.00
Anatolian EF and WHG mix


SW-Asian
5.89
0.00
Mostly Natufian


San
1.24
0.3



E-African
1.82




Pygmy
0.92
0.19



W-African
0.73




Mal'ta contains only Baloch and NE Euro. Pretty much what was present in EHG, and likewise they miss Mediterranean and SW-Asian.
Kostenki lived north of Black Sea area though much earlier. It contains all the admixtures, even in relation to Natufians, but it is missing Caucasian admixture, same as Mal'ta boy. It seems that Caucasian admixture was a late arrival to the area. These two have even a connection to S-Indian but not to Caucasian?! Where did Caucasian come from?

According to David Reich --> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32879-David-Reich-s-summary-of-the-population-history-of-Europe

Kostenki clusters VERY close to the Caucasians and Iranian. 'Pure' ANE Mal'ta (MA1) is also the closest to Caucasians and Iranians. Here is the evidence:



http://s12.postimg.org/vwsg1vlel/image.jpg
http://s22.postimg.org/7h1dxzjo1/image.jpg

80658067

Goga
29-09-16, 02:58
According to David Reich --> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32879-David-Reich-s-summary-of-the-population-history-of-Europe

Kostenki clusters VERY close to the Caucasians and Iranian. 'Pure' ANE Mal'ta (MA1) is also the closest to Caucasians and Iranians. Here is the evidence:



http://s22.postimg.org/7h1dxzjo1/image.jpg

Also it seems that Kostenki's genome looked VERY similar to CHG & Neolithic Iran.

http://s15.postimg.org/5hn188hvf/image.jpg

8068

LeBrok
29-09-16, 04:18
Possibly CHG was original Beloch group, separated and secluded in Caucasus mountains for 10k years. Genome drifted away and developed CHG admixture there. Likely, it is fairly young admixture not existing in Kostenki yet. Both CHG and Iranian Farmer are composed of Caucasian and Beloch just in different proportions. If CHG was from far away they would also plot fare away from Iranian Neolithic, even if they had partially mixed with locals.

Goga
29-09-16, 04:41
Wow, just WOW! Anatolian/European Farmers were genetically so far away from CHG/Neolithic Iran, while they (Anatolian Farmers) were close to Neolithic Levant.

After the agriculture revolution, the Iranians + CHG folks totally replaced the Anatolian Farmers in Anatolia/Asia Minor. This proces occurred during the Copper (Chalcolithic) Age. Copper Age (Chalcolithic) Anatolians were already slightly moving toward Caucasians/Iranians.

Also, Anatolian Farmers influenced Neolithic Iranian a little bit, that's why Copper Age (Chalcolithic) Iranians are just a little bit shifted toward south.

Later those Copper Age (Chalcolithic) Iranians got some minor Bronze Age Steppe ancestry, so they shifted a little bit toward west toward Middle Bronze Age Steppe. So there was a some kind of minor back migration from the Steppes into West Asia again AFTER the Bronze Age. And we have archeological evidence for that and we know that some Northwestern (European) Scythians migrated into and settled down in Kurdistan & Iran

Goga
29-09-16, 04:49
Possibly CHG was original Beloch group, separated and secluded in Caucasus mountains for 10k years. Genome drifted away and developed CHG admixture there. Likely, it is fairly young admixture not existing in Kostenki yet. Both CHG and Iranian Farmer are composed of Caucasian and Beloch just in different proportions. If CHG was from far away they would also plot fare away from Iranian Neolithic, even if they had partially mixed with locals.Yeah, I do also believe that at one point CHG and Neolithic Iranian belonged to the same group. But it seems that when CHG broke away from Neo_Iran and settled down in the Caucasus Mountains it received some minor gene flow from EHG, thousands and thousands of years ago. That's why CHG is just a little bit more shifted toward ancient EHG.

My guess is

CHG = 97-98 % 'Neolithic Iranian' + 2-3 % EHG

or

'Neolithic Iranian' = 97-98 % CHG + 2-3 % ??? (something unknown)

Goga
29-09-16, 05:56
Wow, just WOW! Anatolian/European Farmers were genetically so far away from CHG/Neolithic Iran, while they (Anatolian Farmers) were close to Neolithic Levant.

After the agriculture revolution, the Iranians + CHG folks totally replaced the Anatolian Farmers in Anatolia/Asia Minor. This proces occurred during the Copper (Chalcolithic) Age. Copper Age (Chalcolithic) Anatolians were already slightly moving toward Caucasians/Iranians.Now we are getting somewhere!

This is for me the ULTIMATE evidence that during the copper age Anatolia & Mesopotamia was replaced by the same people who invaded Yamnaya. Iranians (Aryans) from Leyla Tepe moved toward Yamnaya and Anatolia/Mesopotamia simultaneously !!!

I don't why, but Anatolian farmers were the weakest link and got replaced by the CHG/Neo_Iran folks during the Copper Age. It was the time of and correspondents well with the Sumerians of the Ubaid (and later Uruk) period.


According Carleton Stevens Coon the Sumerians were 'Iranid' people (belonged to the Iranian/Aryan race) !!!

" It can be shown that Sumerians who lived over five thousand years ago in Mesopotamia are almost identical in skull and face form with living Englishmen, "

" These early Sumerians, like the inhabitants of the Iranian plateau, had already acquired the projecting, aquiline noses so characteristic of the modem Near East. Like the plateau dwellers, these early Sumerians were Afghanian in race. "

https://archive.org/stream/RacesOfEuropeCharlesStevenCoon/Races%20of%20Europe,%20The%20-%20Charles%20Steven%20Coon_djvu.txt

Fire Haired14
29-09-16, 06:37
Results for Iron age Sycthian.



S-Indian
1.53


Baloch
24.12


Caucasian
8.80


NE-Euro
40.81


SE-Asian
1.38


Siberian
6.27


NE-Asian
2.00


Papuan
0.32


American
2.43


Beringian
2.00


Mediterranean
9.35


SW-Asian
-


San
-


E-African
0.32


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.64





1

68.2%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
+
31.8%
brahui (hgdp)
@
5.69


2

67.3%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
+
32.7%
balochi (hgdp)
@
6.06


3

67.7%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
+
32.3%
makrani (hgdp)
@
6.07




1 brahui + chuvash + mordovian + mordovian @ 6.364490
2 brahui + lithuanian + lithuanian + uzbek @ 6.455594

Goga
29-09-16, 07:10
Results for Iron age Sycthian.



S-Indian
1.53


Baloch
24.12


Caucasian
8.80


NE-Euro
40.81


SE-Asian
1.38


Siberian
6.27


NE-Asian
2.00


Papuan
0.32


American
2.43


Beringian
2.00


Mediterranean
9.35


SW-Asian
-


San
-


E-African
0.32


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.64





1

68.2%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
+
31.8%
brahui (hgdp)
@
5.69


2

67.3%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
+
32.7%
balochi (hgdp)
@
6.06


3

67.7%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
+
32.3%
makrani (hgdp)
@
6.07




1 brahui + chuvash + mordovian + mordovian @ 6.364490
2 brahui + lithuanian + lithuanian + uzbek @ 6.455594Thanks!

As you can see Scythians were heavily mixed people. Native people in the Steppes (North Central Asia) were linguistically Iranized by proto-East Iranian BMAC folks. Scythians were also mixed with East Asian people.

Later those East Iranian speaking Scythians of Central Asia moved West toward Ukraine. Some of them back migrated toward and settled down in the land of the Medes (Media in Kurdistan/Western Iran/Iranian Plateau).


It were the Scythians who brought some Siberians and East Asian DNA to Kurdistan in the Iron Age. That's why Kurds have some of it.


Kurds and some other Western Iranians have between 10-15 % of that Bronze/Iron Age Scythian's DNA, because Kurds have between 4-7 % NE-Euro component. (4/40 = 10 % & 7/40 = 17,5 %)


PS. Kurds have ~ 75 % ancient Aryan Medo-Persian DNA, ~13 % Scythian, ~7 % Hurrian/Armenian and ~5 % Semitic (Chaldean/Babylonian/Egypt)

johen
29-09-16, 08:16
According Carleton Stevens Coon the Sumerians were 'Iranid' people (belonged to the Iranian/Aryan race) !!!


Has Iranian or Kurd people still kept some kind of Sumer tradition or customs until now?


Sumer wrestling
http://www.newsnbible.com/news/photo/201508/2625_5586_5440.JPG

Altai wrestling
http://c8.alamy.com/comp/A9X688/national-altaian-wrestling-kuresh-altai-republic-russia-A9X688.jpg

korean wrestling
http://www.ekapepia.com/common/attachfile/attachfileView.do?attachfileDtlId=00010367&imgType=L

LeBrok
29-09-16, 08:17
Results for Iron age Sycthian.



S-Indian
1.53


Baloch
24.12


Caucasian
8.80


NE-Euro
40.81


SE-Asian
1.38


Siberian
6.27


NE-Asian
2.00


Papuan
0.32


American
2.43


Beringian
2.00


Mediterranean
9.35


SW-Asian
-


San
-


E-African
0.32


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.64





1

68.2%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
+
31.8%
brahui (hgdp)
@
5.69


2

67.3%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
+
32.7%
balochi (hgdp)
@
6.06


3

67.7%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
+
32.3%
makrani (hgdp)
@
6.07




1 brahui + chuvash + mordovian + mordovian @ 6.364490
2 brahui + lithuanian + lithuanian + uzbek @ 6.455594 This Scythian sort of resembles Andronovo sample, but with more Caucasian and way more Siberian-Beringian admixtures. Is he turning Mongolian?



Andronovo


Population



S-Indian
0.54


Baloch
21.23


Caucasian
2.4


NE-Euro
56.39


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
1.93


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-


American
1.05


Beringian
1.22


Mediterranean
14.37


SW-Asian
-


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
0.06


W-African
0.81

A. Papadimitriou
29-09-16, 11:33
Yeah, I do also believe that at one point CHG and Neolithic Iranian belonged to the same group. But it seems that when CHG broke away from Neo_Iran and settled down in the Caucasus Mountains it received some minor gene flow from EHG, thousands and thousands of years ago. That's why CHG is just a little bit more shifted toward ancient EHG.

My guess is

CHG = 97-98 % 'Neolithic Iranian' + 2-3 % EHG

or

'Neolithic Iranian' = 97-98 % CHG + 2-3 % ??? (something unknown)

What you should explain is why the Baloch component decreases from Neolithic to Copper Age and from Copper Age to Iron Age? (according to HarappaWorld calculator)
Why the Caucasian component increases significantly from Neolithic to Copper Age. Is it a back migration?
And then it's the Mediterranean + NE Euro + SW Asian admixture after the Copper Age.

Goga
29-09-16, 15:23
What you should explain is why the Baloch component decreases from Neolithic to Copper Age and from Copper Age to Iron Age? (according to HarappaWorld calculator)
Why the Caucasian component increases significantly from Neolithic to Copper Age. Is it a back migration?
And then it's the Mediterranean + NE Euro + SW Asian admixture after the Copper Age.
Honestly, I don't know for sure what happened between late Neolithic and Copper Age. Caucasian and Neolithic_Iranian admixture are almost the same. So, maybe calculators have some trouble to separate both admixtures.

I think between late Neolithic and Copper Age Neolithic_Iranian mixed a little bit with the Anatolian Farmers. That's why we see at the map that they shift a little it toward south. But as you can see Caucasians and Iranians didn't shift that much from Neolithic_Iranians and CHG.


Mediterranean + some SW_Asian admixture could be native to Anatolia. Anatolian farmers had most of Mediterranean admixture, that's why we have also very high Mediterranean admixture in the Neolithic European farmers.

Neolithic Anatolian (European) Farmers = Mediterranean + some SW_Asian + ? Caucasian ???


After the Copper Age the SW_Asian admixture didn't increase that much and stayed almost the same.


I already explained why we see NE_Euro in Kurdistan/Western Iran.

Goga
29-09-16, 16:03
Has Iranian or Kurd people still kept some kind of Sumer tradition or customs until now?Native Kurdish religion (Yezidism) resembles many things with the Sumerian mythology.

Like ancient Kurds & the modern day Ezdi Kurd (Yezidi), Sumerians were the SUN worshippers and they believed in 7 angels (Annunaki)


Sumerians Birdlike God (Annunaki):

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sumeranu/sumeranu14_09.jpg




Ezdi Kurds portrait the GOD also as a SUN adn have 7 archangels with Tausî Melek as a chiefangel. We do also believe in the creation of cosmos from the cosmic egg (the big bang theory).


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kzG4cnXzmSo/RcnSja1O6YI/AAAAAAAAAEk/Q6j-bM6RZ4o/s1600/melek_taus.jpg




http://www.personal.ceu.hu/students/09/Eszter_Spat/sanjak/TheSheikhansanjak_files/image002.jpg (https://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjK7cqN4rTPAhWF1BoKHbkAB7QQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fkurdistanskyscrapers.com%2Ftopic% 2F8717589%2F2%2F&psig=AFQjCNEpn562TVpuhaYi-omowmZpcEqEgw&ust=1475245018129012)
Ezdi sanjak




Sumerian 'TREE of LIFE' with the WINGED DISK:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SXRZzWMxV9g/VLAxNXDkGgI/AAAAAAAAAxg/n9Ni0qUF3oc/s1600/Mesopotamian_cylinder_seal_impression.jpg (https://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=imgres&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi7yN-a_6XNAhWI7RQKHeFCDAAQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftreeoflifemeaning22.blogspot.com% 2Fp%2Fmesopotamian-tree-of-life.html&psig=AFQjCNE-7cs1WvCLEhYLqX1wknioI18Xgw&ust=1465941345726920)

http://treeoflifemeaning22.blogspot.nl/p/mesopotamian-tree-of-life.html


About the Sumerian 'TREE of LIFE':

" There are several later paintings and drawings of the Tree of Life, but this Sumerian Clay tablet (however crude it might appear) is one of the earliest, if not the first. It is among the original Sumerian Cylinders and clay tablets excavated circa 2, 500 BCE.

http://www.zoroastrian.org.uk/vohuman/Article/The%20Sumerian%20Tree%20of%20Life_files/image001.jpg


The clay tablet is prepared by rolling the carved metal seal on wet clay, which is then baked. Once baked the tablet cannot be altered. The original Sumerian (Indo-Iranian) concept was that wisdom is likened to a tree whose fruit endows those who eat it with health and longevity. The symbol of an elixir of life had already been well established in antiquity by the Indo-Iranian cultures long before Judaism, Christianity, Islam and other cultures had the opportunity to recognise it. This 4,500 year old clay tablet shows a man and a woman seated below the Tree of Life. Behind the woman is seen a serpent allegedly ‘tempting’ the woman.

This concept was expurgated in the Bible as the tree of life in the Garden of Eden by the Jews and Christians. The Book of Genesis 3.22 mentions such a tree as 'the giver of eternal life.' "

http://www.zoroastrian.org.uk/vohuman/Article/The%20Sumerian%20Tree%20of%20Life.htm



Prominence of the Irano-Afghan Race in Mesopotamia since Sumerian Times. The Iranic or Irano-Afghan race has dominated the plains of Mesopotamia since Sumerian times, as the learned American anthropologist Prof. C. S. Coon notes,

"The Irano-Afghan race, prominent since Sumerian times in Mesopotamia, is the chief population element in the entire highland territory from the western border of Iran to northern India." (Coon 1939, "The Mediterranean World: (4) - The Irano-Afghan Race", p.415)

http://iranian.com/History/2005/March/Gutians/ (http://iranian.com/History/2005/March/Gutians/)

LeBrok
29-09-16, 18:32
CHG, Satsurblia


Armenian Chalcolithic


Samara HG


Poltavka, mid Yamnaya



Population


Population


Population


Population



S-Indian
0.62

S-Indian
0.27

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
36.63

Baloch
17.64

Baloch
14.33

Baloch
30.06


Caucasian
54.15

Caucasian
41.35

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
7.57


NE-Euro
3.84

NE-Euro
20.25

NE-Euro
75.62

NE-Euro
59.14


SE-Asian
0.59

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
0.77

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
0.99


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.15

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
-

American
0.55

American
9.62

American
2.21


Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
0.15

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
11.12

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
8.81

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
0.25

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
3.01

W-African
-

W-African
0.2

W-African
-




Anatolian EF


Anatolian Chalcolithic


Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
-

Baloch
9.14


Caucasian
37.64

Caucasian
48.14


NE-Euro
0.86

NE-Euro
6.45


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
0.16


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
-

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
47.24

Mediterranean
26.7


SW-Asian
14.00

SW-Asian
9.27


San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.27

W-African
0.13




Looks to me that by Chalcolithic there was a massive invasion of Steppe/Yamnaya people into Armenia. It pulled amount of Baloch and Caucasian down and substantially increased NE Euro. I would say 20 to 30% of new population. "Armenians" were also affected by another 20% of population influx from Anatolia EF, this transferred 20% of Mediterranean and SW Asian admixtures. However in Chalcolithic the trend reverses and we can see huge effect of Armenian Chalcolithic on Anatolian Chalcolithic.

I'm surprised however of low level of Caucasian admixture into Yamnaya. Seems that with Iranian Farmer movement into the Steppe, mostly Baloch admixture was transferred. Looking at NE ratio dropping from Samara (EHG) to Poltavka (Yamnaya), that's like taking roughly 25% of Iranian Farmer genes.




Poltavka, mid Yamnaya


Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years



Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
6.13


Baloch
30.06

Baloch
62.71


Caucasian
7.57

Caucasian
24.97


NE-Euro
59.14

NE-Euro
-


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
0.99

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
0.35


American
2.21

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
3.88


San
-

San
0.18


E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
-

W-African
1.78

Boreas
29-09-16, 19:23
Anatolian EF


Anatolian Chalcolithic


Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
-

Baloch
9.14


Caucasian
37.64

Caucasian
48.14


NE-Euro
0.86

NE-Euro
6.45


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
0.16


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
-

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
47.24

Mediterranean
26.7


SW-Asian
14.00

SW-Asian
9.27


San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.27

W-African
0.13




8072

Without Caucausian increases during the Chalcolithic, all other changes are in same direction :grin:

Angela
29-09-16, 19:36
CHG, Satsurblia


Armenian Chalcolithic


Samara HG


Poltavka, mid Yamnaya



Population


Population


Population


Population



S-Indian
0.62

S-Indian
0.27

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
36.63

Baloch
17.64

Baloch
14.33

Baloch
30.06


Caucasian
54.15

Caucasian
41.35

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
7.57


NE-Euro
3.84

NE-Euro
20.25

NE-Euro
75.62

NE-Euro
59.14


SE-Asian
0.59

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
0.77

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
0.99


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.15

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
-

American
0.55

American
9.62

American
2.21


Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
0.15

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
11.12

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
8.81

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
0.25

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
3.01

W-African
-

W-African
0.2

W-African
-




Anatolian EF


Anatolian Chalcolithic


Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
-

Baloch
9.14


Caucasian
37.64

Caucasian
48.14


NE-Euro
0.86

NE-Euro
6.45


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
0.16


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
-

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
47.24

Mediterranean
26.7


SW-Asian
14.00

SW-Asian
9.27


San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.27

W-African
0.13




Looks to me that by Chalcolithic there was a massive invasion of Steppe/Yamnaya people into Armenia. It pulled amount of Baloch and Caucasian down and substantially increased NE Euro. I would say 20 to 30% of new population. "Armenians" were also affected by another 20% of population influx from Anatolia EF, this transferred 20% of Mediterranean and SW Asian admixtures. However in Chalcolithic the trend reverses and we can see huge effect of Armenian Chalcolithic on Anatolian Chalcolithic.

I'm surprised however of low level of Caucasian admixture into Yamnaya. Seems that with Iranian Farmer movement into the Steppe, mostly Baloch admixture was transferred. Looking at NE ratio dropping from Samara (EHG) to Poltavka (Yamnaya), that's like taking roughly 25% of Iranian Farmer genes.




Poltavka, mid Yamnaya


Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years



Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
6.13


Baloch
30.06

Baloch
62.71


Caucasian
7.57

Caucasian
24.97


NE-Euro
59.14

NE-Euro
-


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
0.99

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
0.35


American
2.21

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
3.88


San
-

San
0.18


E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
-

W-African
1.78





Whatever "Caucasian" represents in this calculator, the Satsurblia number indicates it was present from very early times in the Caucasus. It's also clear that while it increased in Anatolia in the Chalcolithic, it was already present in the Anatolia EF; 37.64 is a significant number. For all the data shows that Iran Neolithic and Anatolia EF were distinct populations, they shared substantial percentages of the same component. (Caucasian)

There's an interesting comparison between Satsurblia and Iran Neolithic as well for "Caucasian":
Satsurblia: 54.15
Iran Neolithic: 24.97

Then we can look at the two Anatolia samples:
Anatolia EF: 37.64
Anatolia Chalcolithic: 48.14

Is it that the "Caucasian" was first in the area of the Iran Neolithic and then "Baloch" type ancestry entered from the southeast?

Do we have an Armenian Neolithic sample? I'd wait to draw any larger conclusions until we see those numbers.

Tomenable
29-09-16, 19:42
Gedmatch calculators seem to be rather good for ancients as well (not only for modern people).

Here is a PCA of ancient samples based on their admixture results in Eurogenes K15 calculator:

http://s16.postimg.org/d5v0tx1et/PCA_described.png

http://s16.postimg.org/d5v0tx1et/PCA_described.png

If we project also some of modern Europeans onto this PCA, I believe they will plot in this area:

http://s9.postimg.org/rkmjd7cr3/Europeans.png

http://s9.postimg.org/rkmjd7cr3/Europeans.png

=================================================

Data used for creating that PCA: https://s9.postimg.org/h9vj9gi9p/K15_Ancients.png

Perhaps a PCA based on HarappaWorld results would be very similar.

Goga
29-09-16, 20:26
Looks to me that by Chalcolithic there was a massive invasion of Steppe/Yamnaya people into Armenia. It pulled amount of Baloch and Caucasian down and substantially increased NE Euro. I would say 20 to 30% of new population. "Armenians" were also affected by another 20% of population influx from Anatolia EF, this transferred 20% of Mediterranean and SW Asian admixtures. However in Chalcolithic the trend reverses and we can see huge effect of Armenian Chalcolithic on Anatolian Chalcolithic.


Wow, There was even a difference between Iranian Chalcolithic and Armenian Chalcolithic ! Copper Age Armenians and Copper Age Iranian were 2 (two) different populations




Admixture
Neolithic Iran
Iran Chalcolothic/CopperAge
Armenian Chalcolithic/CopperAge


Caucasian
24.97
49.91
41.35


Baloch
62.71
37,82
17.64


SW-Asian
3.88
10.88
8.81


NE-Euro
-
-
20.25


Mediterranean
-
-
11.12


S-Indian
6.13
1.05
0.27


Siberian
-
-
-


W-African
1.78
0.33
-


SE-Asian
-
-
-


Beringian
-
-
-


NE-Asian
-
-
-


Papuan
0.35
-
-


American
-
-
0.55


San
0.18
-
-


E-African
-
-
-


Pygmy
-
-
-




It seems that Iron Age Iranians (Medes/Persians) got some of their NE_Euro admixture from Copper/Bronze Age Armenians and maybe NOT everything from the Scythians.

Goga
29-09-16, 22:57
Eureka!! Now the picture is getting more clear to me about what happened in Anatolia/Armenia and Western Iran.


About Armenian/Anatolia

First we have got the Anatolian Farmers in Anatolia/Armenia. Those neolithic farmers were the same who migrated into Europe. Later those farmers were hugely replaced by Yamnaya-kind of people (those Yamnaya folks were already mixed with Iranians). Those Yamnaya folks brought some NE-Euro and Baloch admixture into Armenia. On the third stage Armenia/Anatolia experienced a 3rd migration wave from Iran. And therefore they got some extra Baloch ancestry.


So ancient Armenia/Anatolia:

1st stage: Anatolian Farmers
2nd stage: Anatolian Farmers + Iranians
3rd stage: Anatolian Farmers + Iranians + Yamnaya-type people


About Western Iran/Kurdistan/Media/Persia

Copper Age WESTERN Iranians mixed with those 3rd stage Armenians to some degree and that was the point when also those Iranians received a minor geneflow from those Armenians who contributed some Mediterranean & NE_Europe admixture to the western part of the Iranian Plateau. This was my first prediction before I saw Armenian Chalcolithic auDNA:


Iron Age Western Iranian - modern Kurds:

~ 75 % ancient Aryan Medo-Persian
~13 % Scythian
~7 % Hurrian-Armenian
~5 % Semitic (Chaldean/Babylonian/Egypt)


This is my new prediction on Iron Age Western Iranian to modern Kurdish DNA.

~ 75 % ancient Medo-Persian Aryan
~ 15 % Hurro-Armenian
~ 5 % Scythian (brought some Siberian and other East Asian admixtres to West Asia)
~ 5 % Semitic (Chaldean/Babylonian/Egyptian)

A. Papadimitriou
29-09-16, 23:20
This is from Kura-Araxes, kit number M536324, labeled ArmeniaEBA



Kura-Araxes
Armenia
Talin [I1658 / TA3/R8]
Female
3347-3092 calBCE (4492±29 BP)



U3a2

Lazaridis 2016 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lazaridis2016)






Population



S-Indian
0.27


Baloch
25.53


Caucasian
56.75


NE-Euro
4.79


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-


American
-


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
5.88


SW-Asian
6.45


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.33




Geographical position: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talin,_Armenia

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

Armenia Chalcolithic was the following


Armenia
Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1631/ARE 1/43C]
Female
4250-4050 BCE



K1a8

Lazaridis 2016 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lazaridis2016)





Population



S-Indian
0.27


Baloch
17.64


Caucasian
41.35


NE-Euro
20.25


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-


American
0.55


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
11.12


SW-Asian
8.81


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
-


Geographical position: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areni-1_cave_complex

So, Kura-Araxes had one sample with R1b1-M415 but this particular sample (which is female, like 'Armenia Chalcolithic') at least doesn't have significant NE Euro.

ArmeniaMLBA has though.

I used Gedmatch for the first time. If anything is wrong, please inform me.

Tomenable
29-09-16, 23:30
Armenia Chalcolithic was the following

A lot of European admixture. One of Armenian Chalcolithic samples also had a European mtDNA haplo U4a:

http://s21.postimg.org/j57keydbr/U4a_Armenia.png

Here are characteristic Mesolithic European mtDNA haplos: U8a, U8c, U5b, U5a (U5a1 + U5a2), U4 and U2.

U5a1, U4, U2e, U5b2a1a1 were most common in Eastern Europe. U5b, U5a2, U8a, U8c were more Western.

============================

Bronze Age Steppe had a mixture of Eastern European Mesolithic and other mtDNA haplos.

From Eastern European hunters they had mostly: U5a1, U4, U2e, U2d2 and U5b2a1a1.

They also had (most certainly from other groups) for example the following mtDNA:

K1b, T1a, T2a1, T2c1, H6a1, H5, H2, H13, J1b, J2b1, I3, W6, W3a1a, X2b, N1a1, R1, C4a3

Tomenable
29-09-16, 23:48
Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Poltavka/Catacomb samples:

Gedmatch kit / culture and sample:



M828815
Yamnaya-RISE552


M655536
Yamnaya-I0231


M343758
Yamnaya-I0443


F999968
Yamnaya-RISE548


F999942
Afanasievo-RISE509


M828784
Afanasievo-RISE511


M766878
Poltavka-I0440


F999946
Catacomb-RISE552



If you check them with HarappaWorld:

Proportion of NE_Euro to Mediterranean admixture is about 2:1 for all these samples.

So if Armenian Chalcolithic scores 20 NE_Euro + 10 Med, it could all be from Yamnaya.

And Amerindian suggests some ANE (which could also be from Yamnaya).

Tomenable
29-09-16, 23:54
Middle-Late Bronze Age Steppe samples:

Gedmatch kit / culture and sample:



M690970
Sintashta-RISE386


M277797
Sintashta-RISE395


M608028
Andronovo-RISE505


F999947
Andronovo-RISE500


F999961
Andronovo-RISE503


M472767
Srubnaya-I0232


M217196
Srubnaya-I0430



==================================

Here is a comparison of ancient samples with use of Eurogenes K15:

File with data: http://www85.zippyshare.com/v/E6DR0qQl/file.html

LeBrok
30-09-16, 00:37
Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Poltavka/Catacomb samples:

Gedmatch kit / culture and sample:



M828815
Yamnaya-RISE552


M655536
Yamnaya-I0231


M343758
Yamnaya-I0443


F999968
Yamnaya-RISE548


F999942
Afanasievo-RISE509


M828784
Afanasievo-RISE511


M766878
Poltavka-I0440


F999946
Catacomb-RISE552



If you check them with HarappaWorld:

Proportion of NE_Euro to Mediterranean admixture is about 2:1 for all these samples.

So if Armenian Chalcolithic scores 20 NE_Euro + 10 Med, it could all be from Yamnaya.

And Amerindian suggests some ANE (which could also be from Yamnaya).
Nope, Yamanya didn't have Med. Only Sintashta and Andronovo did.


Yamnaya Rise522


Poltavka, mid Yamnaya


Afansievo Rise511


Sintashta


Andronovo


Population


Population


Population


Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
0.54


Baloch
33.24

Baloch
30.06

Baloch
28.13

Baloch
17.64

Baloch
21.23


Caucasian
6.58

Caucasian
7.57

Caucasian
2.18

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
2.4


NE-Euro
56.02

NE-Euro
59.14

NE-Euro
63.76

NE-Euro
58.44

NE-Euro
56.39


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
0.99

Siberian
1.64

Siberian
-

Siberian
1.93


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
2.46

American
2.21

American
3.56

American
-

American
1.05


Beringian
0.75

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
1.22


Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
23.06

Mediterranean
14.37


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.06


W-African
0.95

W-African
-

W-African
0.72

W-African
0.82

W-African
0.81




Surprising that they Sintashta and Andronovo don't have Caucasian. How could they get Mediteranean without getting Caucasian? WHG or maybe from Cucuteni farmers who were low on SW Asian and Caucasian? Here is Hungarian farmer:


NE7 Hungary



Population



S-Indian
-


Baloch
-


Caucasian
19.04


NE-Euro
16.69


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-


American
-


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
56.18


SW-Asian
7.96


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.11




And WHG


K01, hungary, hunter gatherer



Population



S-Indian
-


Baloch
-


Caucasian
-


NE-Euro
82.06


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.2


American
-


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
17.44


SW-Asian
-


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.26

LeBrok
30-09-16, 00:51
Middle-Late Bronze Age Steppe samples:

Gedmatch kit / culture and sample:



M690970
Sintashta-RISE386


M277797
Sintashta-RISE395


M608028
Andronovo-RISE505


F999947
Andronovo-RISE500


F999961
Andronovo-RISE503


M472767
Srubnaya-I0232


M217196
Srubnaya-I0430



==================================

Here is a comparison of ancient samples with use of Eurogenes K15:

File with data: http://www85.zippyshare.com/v/E6DR0qQl/file.html
Srubna is similar to Sintashta and Andronovo. Different from Yamnaya and Catacomb culture. Baloch is half of Yamnaya and up to 20% Med.


Srubna culture, 3.5kya


Population



S-Indian
-


Baloch
19.64


Caucasian
6


NE-Euro
56.05


SE-Asian
0.09


Siberian
0.66


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-


American
0.2


Beringian
0.15


Mediterranean
16.91


SW-Asian
-


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.29



Similar to Corded Ware


Corded Ware, Germany



Population



S-Indian
0.24


Baloch
7.51


Caucasian
8


NE-Euro
47.75


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
0.71


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.97


American
-


Beringian
0.08


Mediterranean
31.31


SW-Asian
3.25


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.18

LeBrok
30-09-16, 01:03
Whatever "Caucasian" represents in this calculator, the Satsurblia number indicates it was present from very early times in the Caucasus. It's also clear that while it increased in Anatolia in the Chalcolithic, it was already present in the Anatolia EF; 37.64 is a significant number. For all the data shows that Iran Neolithic and Anatolia EF were distinct populations, they shared substantial percentages of the same component. (Caucasian)

There's an interesting comparison between Satsurblia and Iran Neolithic as well for "Caucasian":
Satsurblia: 54.15
Iran Neolithic: 24.97

Then we can look at the two Anatolia samples:
Anatolia EF: 37.64
Anatolia Chalcolithic: 48.14
Caucasian is a mystery, where it was hiding and when it came out.



Is it that the "Caucasian" was first in the area of the Iran Neolithic and then "Baloch" type ancestry entered from the southeast? Nope, Baloch is also present in EHG and in Mal'ta. It was always in the area.


Samara HG


Mal'ta



Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
10.13


Baloch
14.33

Baloch
24.09


Caucasian
-

Caucasian
-


NE-Euro
75.62

NE-Euro
40.14


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
0.7


American
9.62

American
17.71


Beringian
0.15

Beringian
6.74


Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
0.3


E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.19


W-African
0.2

W-African
-




Do we have an Armenian Neolithic sample? I'd wait to draw any larger conclusions until we see those numbersStill missing.

Angela
30-09-16, 01:56
LeBrok:
Surprising that they Sintashta and Andronovo don't have Caucasian. How could they get Mediteranean without getting Caucasian? WHG or maybe from Cucuteni farmers who were low on SW Asian and Caucasian?

Srubnaya, Sintashta, and Adronovo are, what, 1000 years later, and a quite different people from Yamnaya and Catacomb, whether they have ancestry from them or are merely descended from some of the same people.

Tomenable
30-09-16, 02:20
Gedmatch calculators seem to be rather good for ancients as well (not only for modern people).

Here is a PCA of ancient samples based on their admixture results in Eurogenes K15 calculator:

http://s16.postimg.org/d5v0tx1et/PCA_described.png

http://s16.postimg.org/d5v0tx1et/PCA_described.png

That PCA looks similar to PCAs from Lazaridis (which shows that Eurogenes K15 works quite well with ancients):

https://s32.postimg.org/qi9jt7u0z/wykres_PCA.png

https://s32.postimg.org/qi9jt7u0z/wykres_PCA.png

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images/nature13673-f2.jpg

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images/nature13673-f2.jpg

Tomenable
30-09-16, 03:58
Srubnaya, Sintashta, and Adronovo are, what, 1000 years later, and a quite different people from Yamnaya and Catacomb, whether they have ancestry from them or are merely descended from some of the same people.

Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Poltavka/Catacomb samples:

Gedmatch kit / culture and sample:

M828815 / Yamnaya-RISE552
M655536 / Yamnaya-I0231
M343758 / Yamnaya-I0443
F999968 / Yamnaya-RISE548
F999942 / Afanasievo-RISE509
M828784 / Afanasievo-RISE511
M766878 / Poltavka-I0440
F999946 / Catacomb-RISE552

Middle-Late Bronze Age Steppe samples:

Gedmatch kit / culture and sample:

M690970 / Sintashta-RISE386
M277797 / Sintashta-RISE395
M608028 / Andronovo-RISE505
F999947 / Andronovo-RISE500
F999961 / Andronovo-RISE503
M472767 / Srubnaya-I0232
M217196 / Srubnaya-I0430

I made a comparison of these samples in GedrosiaK12 and EurasiaK14 calculators:

http://s15.postimg.org/i0j40q2xn/Gedrosia_K12_Steppe.png

http://s15.postimg.org/i0j40q2xn/Gedrosia_K12_Steppe.png

http://s16.postimg.org/xktrcr9px/Eurasia_K14_Steppe.png

http://s16.postimg.org/xktrcr9px/Eurasia_K14_Steppe.png

Graphs:

http://s11.postimg.org/wo3d4i5wj/Gedrosia_K12_Eurasia_K14_graphs.png

http://s11.postimg.org/wo3d4i5wj/Gedrosia_K12_Eurasia_K14_graphs.png

Tomenable
30-09-16, 04:15
And in Eurogenes K15:



Pop.
North
Sea
Atlantic
Baltic
East
Euro
West
Med
West Asian
East
Med
Red
Sea
South Asian
Southeast Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
Northeast African
Sub Saharan





Yamnaya-RISE552
30,98
0
12,12
28,8
0
21,88
0
0
4,5
0
0
1,72
0
0
0


Yamnaya-I0231
31,56
0
10,57
31,93
0
17,7
0
0
4,52
0
0
3,73
0
0
0


Yamnaya-I0443
29,29
5,28
11,4
27,67
0
20,02
0
0
3,46
0
0
2,88
0
0
0


Yamnaya-RISE548
35,58
1,53
13,39
33,08
0
15,91
0
0
0
0
0
0,5
0
0
0


Afanasievo-RISE509
32,72
3,36
13,39
33,37
0
16,21
0
0
0
0
0
0,95
0
0
0


Afanasievo-RISE511
30,66
0,11
18,32
28,76
0
15,98
0
0
2,27
0
0
3,9
0
0
0


Poltavka-I0440
28,69
0
14,87
30,62
0
20,84
0
0
3,08
0
0
1,9
0
0
0


Catacomb-RISE552
30,98
0
12,12
28,8
0
21,88
0
0
4,5
0
0
1,72
0
0
0


Sintashta-RISE386
40,16
22,94
12,34
14,68
0
7,74
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
2,14


Sintashta-RISE395
36,69
23,23
15,26
19,86
0
4,96
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0


Andronovo-RISE505
26,06
18,42
14,95
25,31
0
9,4
0
0
4,34
0
0
1,51
0
0
0


Andronovo-RISE500
30,05
24,33
14,72
22,36
0
8,23
0
0
0,32
0
0
0
0
0
0


Andronovo-RISE503
38,88
25,87
5,74
21,6
0
7,91
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0


Srubnaya-I0232
30,53
19,79
16,73
19,03
0
11,25
0
0
2,69
0
0
0
0
0
0


Srubnaya-I0430
44,75
14,28
12,68
17,27
0,34
10,02
0
0
0,48
0
0
0,18
0
0
0

Tomenable
30-09-16, 04:18
The main difference in Eurogenes K15 is much higher "Atlantic" for Sintashta/Andronovo/Srubnaya.

This "Atlantic" is strange, because both Mesolithic HG and Early Neolithic Anatolian Farmers score it.

Anatolian and Early European Farmers score a lot of West Med and East Med. Steppe people do not.

Samara & Karelia EHG don't score "Atlantic", but share "North Sea", "Baltic" & "East Euro" with WHG.

LeBrok
30-09-16, 07:02
That PCA looks similar to PCAs from Lazaridis (which shows that Eurogenes K15 works quite well with ancients):

https://s32.postimg.org/qi9jt7u0z/wykres_PCA.png

https://s32.postimg.org/qi9jt7u0z/wykres_PCA.png

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images/nature13673-f2.jpg


Chalcolithic Anatolia and Armenia is strongly pulled towards Europe/Steppe. It is closer to it than to Iranian Neolithic or CHG. This is what I'm getting from Harappa admixtures too.
Chalcolithic Iran is also pulled down and left. Down due to Levant/Baloch admixture and left due to Steppe/NE Euro.
Iran Recent plots with Armenia, again half way to Steppe/Euro from Iranian Neolithic.
Often I find PCA distances more telling than admixtures.

LeBrok
30-09-16, 07:05
The main difference in Eurogenes K15 is much higher "Atlantic" for Sintashta/Andronovo/Srubnaya.

This "Atlantic" is strange, because both Mesolithic HG and Early Neolithic Anatolian Farmers score it.

Anatolian and Early European Farmers score a lot of West Med and East Med. Steppe people do not.

Samara & Karelia EHG don't score "Atlantic", but share "North Sea", "Baltic" & "East Euro" with WHG.Perhaps Atlantic is what in HarappaWorld is called Mediterranean. WHG have it but not EHG. SHG have a bit of Med too.

LeBrok
30-09-16, 07:16
Does anyone know Jews or Arabs, semitic people, run their genome through HarappaWorld? I wonder what admixture composition they brought in.

Hauteville
30-09-16, 09:35
If not counting ~15% of European-like admixture after the Copper Age (migration from Bronze Age Steppe?).

Later also some Siberian-East Asian and African after 1400 AD (Timurid invasion added East Asian-Siberian?):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty

Here is a comparison with use of Dodecad K12b calculator:

http://s17.postimg.org/vj5yem6jz/Iranians.png

http://s17.postimg.org/vj5yem6jz/Iranians.png

^^^
By the way, Arya is of Bakhtiari descent (they are a Lurish tribe from South-Western Iran):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakhtiari_people
Wow good to see this comparison. It seems that modern Iranians are basically almost the same from the iron age Persians, while in the copper age and neolithic there are differences like much less Caucasus in the neolithic and the lack of Atlanto Med and North Europe admix. Modern Iranians have again South Asian admix (that iron age Persians don't have), while SW Asian increased a bit (effects of Arab conquest?), Caucasus dropped a bit and appear a small African (African slaves?there is a black Iranian community afaik) and Asian admix.

Goga
30-09-16, 12:02
Chalcolithic Anatolia and Armenia is strongly pulled towards Europe/Steppe. It is closer to it than to Iranian Neolithic or CHG. This is what I'm getting from Harappa admixtures too.
Chalcolithic Iran is also pulled down and left. Down due to Levant/Baloch admixture and left due to Steppe/NE Euro.
Iran Recent plots with Armenia, again half way to Steppe/Euro from Iranian Neolithic.
Often I find PCA distances more telling than admixtures.If you look closer you can see that modern Iranians still plot closer to Chalcolithic Iran than to Armenia.

Modern Iranians still plot MUCH closer to the Neolithic Iran than to Bronze Age Steppe. And VERY close to Chalcolithic Iran. It seems that Iranians didn't change much since the Chalcolithic Iran.


What do mean with 'Levant/Baloch' in the same sentence? You mean because Levant went up & Baloch went down? Baloch is very different from Levant and both have nothing to with each other. Actually because of Baloch Iranians were shifted up north, closer to ancient ANE.

Goga
30-09-16, 12:14
Wow good to see this comparison. It seems that modern Iranians are basically almost the same from the iron age Persians, while in the copper age and neolithic there are differences like much less Caucasus in the neolithic and the lack of Atlanto Med and North Europe admix. Modern Iranians have again South Asian admix (that iron age Persians don't have), while SW Asian increased a bit (effects of Arab conquest?), Caucasus dropped a bit and appear a small African (African slaves?there is a black Iranian community afaik) and Asian admix.
If you look at the PCA you can clearly see that modern day Western Iranians (Kurds & Persians) are very close to Chalcolithic (Copper Age) Iran. As you can see the closest population to Chalcolithic Iran are Kurds first and Iranians (Persians) second.


But I do agree with you that modern Iranians are practically the same to Iron Age Iranians. The Iron Age was the time of the Medes and Persians, it is when the Medes came to power. The Medes established the FIRST Aryan Empire, the Median Empire and therefore were responsible for the later Achaemenid, Seleucid, Parthian and Sasanian Empires. Although all of them were Aryan in nature. So, Kurds are basically the same as their direct Aryan ancestors the Medes who already existed at least in the Iron Age.


The most important fact (for me personally) is that there is a continuation between the ancient Medes/Persians and modern Kurds/Persians.

Goga
30-09-16, 12:38
Does anyone know Jews or Arabs, semitic people, run their genome through HarappaWorld? I wonder what admixture composition they brought in.
Your wish is my command. Population Spreadsheet for HarappaWorld :




Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


algeria
0.46
2.32
2.82
0.53
0.32
0.36
0.14
0.25
0.19
0.58
38.88
30.20
0.46
10.30
0.34
11.83


assyrian
0.24
19.37
51.67
1.19
0.05
0.09
0.37
0.42
0.15
0.26
8.17
17.89
0.02
0.04
0.00
0.07


egypt
1.02
2.55
28.48
0.76
0.14
0.26
0.10
0.42
0.23
0.25
16.60
32.75
0.08
11.30
0.54
4.53


egyptian
0.26
3.06
30.48
0.36
0.27
0.14
0.11
0.35
0.19
0.29
12.84
33.11
0.26
12.42
0.15
5.69


iraqi-arab
3.80
18.72
37.81
2.05
0.18
0.92
0.97
0.77
0.17
0.76
8.03
21.89
0.48
2.33
0.57
0.56


iraqi-mandaean
0.84
20.18
47.80
0.00
0.06
0.00
0.00
0.18
0.59
0.60
7.08
22.21
0.00
0.45
0.00
0.00


jordanian
0.59
9.43
38.85
1.22
0.24
0.22
0.50
0.31
0.21
0.43
11.89
28.28
0.15
5.05
0.27
2.36


lebanese
0.54
10.84
41.42
2.87
0.61
0.58
0.61
0.33
0.24
0.21
13.09
23.47
0.19
3.35
0.14
1.49


lebanese-christian
0.36
9.86
49.26
0.10
0.34
0.45
0.32
1.06
0.50
0.72
11.66
22.86
0.66
1.63
0.23
0.00


lebanese-druze
0.76
10.65
49.86
0.35
0.44
0.46
0.20
1.27
0.47
1.07
10.58
20.74
0.54
1.93
0.51
0.17


lebanese-muslim
0.95
10.98
45.29
1.55
0.35
0.98
0.44
1.08
0.65
1.11
10.71
20.83
0.66
3.16
0.60
0.67


libya
0.45
1.09
10.75
0.81
0.37
0.36
0.22
0.27
0.36
0.47
26.54
38.71
0.10
10.73
0.36
8.40


moroccan
0.90
0.30
3.71
0.58
0.07
0.20
0.08
0.21
0.19
0.05
35.13
32.21
0.00
10.61
0.02
15.75


morocco-n
0.70
1.15
1.69
1.13
0.34
0.37
0.10
0.51
0.25
0.49
46.28
28.24
0.29
10.20
0.05
8.20


morocco-s
0.31
0.00
0.05
0.06
0.18
0.32
0.04
0.28
0.04
0.17
36.35
23.01
0.26
12.53
0.40
25.99


mozabite
0.39
0.32
0.56
0.54
0.08
0.61
0.03
0.10
0.03
0.26
39.57
33.74
0.01
10.07
0.00
13.67


palestinian
0.88
7.40
39.30
1.03
0.26
0.14
0.10
0.35
0.19
0.17
11.81
31.00
0.23
4.70
0.19
2.26


saudi
0.86
4.89
26.18
1.16
0.16
0.16
0.16
0.22
0.30
0.16
3.39
57.74
0.31
3.03
0.34
0.93


syrian
1.74
12.18
41.07
2.97
0.28
0.46
0.21
0.22
0.19
0.43
10.07
25.36
0.19
2.64
0.26
1.73


yemenese
2.44
7.85
26.76
0.93
0.46
0.24
0.21
0.43
0.28
0.55
5.40
35.59
0.33
8.24
1.44
8.85


ashkenazi
0.87
5.36
33.87
19.33
0.48
0.49
0.63
0.16
0.19
0.25
24.00
13.60
0.14
0.46
0.15
0.03


ashkenazy-jew
0.69
6.61
34.46
15.63
0.38
0.71
0.40
0.38
0.28
0.28
24.14
14.88
0.16
0.88
0.07
0.07


azerbaijan-jew
0.90
17.34
53.58
1.42
0.30
0.43
0.00
0.19
0.40
0.28
8.01
17.02
0.04
0.08
0.03
0.00


bene-israel-jew
34.93
26.16
21.28
1.09
0.24
0.48
0.32
0.81
0.24
0.83
4.67
8.08
0.11
0.49
0.12
0.16


ethiopian-jew
0.05
0.03
6.46
0.00
0.12
0.10
0.04
0.26
0.08
0.12
4.10
35.35
2.69
50.04
0.48
0.10


georgia-jew
0.34
15.80
52.14
2.36
0.51
0.12
0.04
0.12
0.42
0.30
7.96
19.42
0.00
0.46
0.00
0.00


iranian-jew
0.47
18.93
49.60
0.00
0.50
0.20
0.33
0.15
0.19
0.22
7.06
21.97
0.04
0.26
0.07
0.00


iraq-jew
0.54
17.27
48.77
0.15
0.30
0.00
0.00
0.36
0.13
0.05
8.65
23.57
0.02
0.17
0.02
0.00


morocco-jew
0.86
6.36
32.76
8.33
0.16
0.04
0.06
0.13
0.10
0.15
27.54
20.00
0.22
1.96
0.06
1.26


sephardic-jew
0.79
6.61
36.38
9.22
0.18
0.33
0.09
0.28
0.10
0.15
25.60
18.42
0.10
1.07
0.19
0.49


uzbekistan-jew
1.44
20.59
46.03
3.99
0.22
0.42
0.16
0.70
0.29
0.25
7.41
18.31
0.00
0.19
0.00
0.00


yemen-jew
0.78
1.53
35.81
0.03
0.15
0.07
0.00
0.27
0.14
0.12
5.87
50.72
0.17
4.34
0.03
0.00

A. Papadimitriou
30-09-16, 14:11
Chalcolithic Anatolia and Armenia is strongly pulled towards Europe/Steppe. It is closer to it than to Iranian Neolithic or CHG. This is what I'm getting from Harappa admixtures too.
Chalcolithic Iran is also pulled down and left. Down due to Levant/Baloch admixture and left due to Steppe/NE Euro.
Iran Recent plots with Armenia, again half way to Steppe/Euro from Iranian Neolithic.
Often I find PCA distances more telling than admixtures.

I don't understand what you are seeing. A movement of a Yamnaya-like population to Iran seems impossible to me. A movement from Europe is theoretically possible after the Copper Age (from a population which had Mediterranean, NE Euro and SW Asian admixture)

Neolithic to Copper Age Iran
Caucasian +24,97
SW Asian +3,88
Baloch -24,89

Copper Age to Iron Age Iran
Mediterranean +6,66
NE Euro +3,01
SW Asian +2,55
Baloch -8,65%

Tomenable
30-09-16, 15:02
from a population which had Mediterranean, NE Euro

Yamnaya did not have Mediterranean, but Sintashta did have it:

HarappaWorld:

Kit F999968 (Yamnaya RISE548):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 63.87
2 Baloch 30.14
3 Caucasian 3.64
4 American 1.32
5 Mediterranean 0.67 (noise-level)
6 W-African 0.36
7 E-African 0.01

Kit M690970 (Sintashta RISE386):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 57.8
2 Mediterranean 19.92
3 Baloch 18.5
4 Caucasian 2.01
5 W-African 1.2
6 Beringian 0.56

Tomenable
30-09-16, 15:07
Kit M217196 (Srubnaya I0430):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 55.13
2 Mediterranean 21.67
3 Baloch 19.86
4 Caucasian 2.35
5 American 0.91
6 E-African 0.07

Tomenable
30-09-16, 15:10
SW Asian and some fraction of Mediterranean came in a separate migration.

Goga
30-09-16, 16:01
Yamnaya did not have Mediterranean, but Sintashta did have it:HarappaWorld:Kit F999968 (Yamnaya RISE548):Admix Results (sorted):# Population Percent1 NE-Euro 63.872 Baloch 30.143 Caucasian 3.644 American 1.325 Mediterranean 0.67 (noise-level)6 W-African 0.367 E-African 0.01Kit M690970 (Sintashta RISE386):Admix Results (sorted):# Population Percent1 NE-Euro 57.82 Mediterranean 19.923 Baloch 18.54 Caucasian 2.015 W-African 1.26 Beringian 0.56But it is in a very different ration NE_Euro vs. Mediterranean = 2.9 : 1

while those who brought NE_Euro/Med had a different proportion, that means they belonged to a different ethnic group, their ratio was 1 : 1.73.

so it is:

2.9 : 1 vs. 1 : 1.73


Copper Age Armenians are much closer to this ration and a better match! And it is much more credible, since Copper Age Armenians were neighbors of Copper Age Iranians. This is the main reason why Caucasian auDNA didn't drop that much.


Also, there was absolutely no migration from Sintashta. That's impossible! BMAC which was proto-East Iranian was much older than Sintashta!


And now we have got now enough evidence that the Steppes were massively colonized / Iranized by ancient Iranians. Both archeological and ancient DNA that Iranians from the Iranian Plateau colonized the Steppes

Goga
30-09-16, 16:38
But it is in a very different ration NE_Euro vs. Mediterranean = 2.9 : 1

while those who brought NE_Euro/Med had a different proportion, that means they belonged to a different ethnic group, their ratio was 1 : 1.73.

so it is:

2.9 : 1 vs. 1 : 1.73


Copper Age Armenians are much closer to this ration and a better match! And it is much more credible, since Copper Age Armenians were neighbors of Copper Age Iranians. This is the main reason why Caucasian auDNA didn't drop that much.

Copper Age Armenians are much closer to this ration and a better match! And it is much more credible, since Copper Age Armenians were neighbors of Copper Age Iranians. This is the main reason why Caucasian auDNA didn't drop that much, while Baloch dropped much more.

Caucasian auDNA went from 49.91 to 47.6 = (47.6 - 49.91) / 49.91 x 100 = -4.63 %
Gedrosia auDNA went from 37.82 to 29.17 = (29.17 - 37.82 ) / 37.82 x 100 = -22.88 %


Gedrosia dropped by 22.88 % , while Caucasian dropped by just 4.63 %! If there was a migration from the Steppes, Gedrosia would never drop by 22.88 % , while Caucasian auDNA drop just by 4.63 %..

According to HarappaWorld calculator the Steppes don't have much of Caucasian auDNA. If there was a migration from the Steppes into Iran, the Caucasian auDNA in Western Iran would drop by much, much more than 4.63 %, while Gedrosia would never drop by 22.88 %.

This is the best EVIDENCE that there was no migration from the Steppes, but from the Armenian Plateau into Iran between Copper and Bronze Age!

Angela
30-09-16, 16:59
The main difference in Eurogenes K15 is much higher "Atlantic" for Sintashta/Andronovo/Srubnaya.

This "Atlantic" is strange, because both Mesolithic HG and Early Neolithic Anatolian Farmers score it.

Anatolian and Early European Farmers score a lot of West Med and East Med. Steppe people do not.

Samara & Karelia EHG don't score "Atlantic", but share "North Sea", "Baltic" & "East Euro" with WHG.

The Eurogenes K15 calculator is obviously much less helpful for these purposes because it includes a very mixed "component" like "Atlantic".

The Eurasia K14, on the other hand, seems very helpful. In the thousand year period between Yamnaya and Srubnaya, there was significant admixture with a mixed EEF/WHG-SHG population. Those samples from Srubnaya and Sintashta are 40-45% "farmer". (I'm not including the perhaps 40% "southern" ancestry in Yamnaya because I don't know if those people were already "farmers" when they entered the steppe.)


Tomenable: SW Asian and some fraction of Mediterranean came in a separate migration.


I don't see any evidence of that. The admixture analysis is pretty clear that the admixture was with MN type people. Even in the EEF, the "SW Asian" was around, what, 12%? It was there, but in minor percentages. By the MN it had gotten whittled down. Then the further admixture with Yamnaya like people made it disappear. That's all I see happening here.


LeBrok:Chalcolithic Anatolia and Armenia is strongly pulled towards Europe/Steppe. It is closer to it than to Iranian Neolithic or CHG. This is what I'm getting from Harappa admixtures too.
Chalcolithic Iran is also pulled down and left. Down due to Levant/Baloch admixture and left due to Steppe/NE Euro.
Iran Recent plots with Armenia, again half way to Steppe/Euro from Iranian Neolithic.
Often I find PCA distances more telling than admixtures.

Chalcolithic Anatolia is certainly different from Neolithic Anatolia, but they weren't pulled toward EHG, were they? Doesn't it seem like they're pulled way up toward Iran Neolithic? Chalcolithic Iran does look like it's pulled some way toward EHG. I don't know about Armenia Chalcolithic. Until we have Neolithic samples from there it's hard to say. Was Neolithic Armenia similar to Neolithic Anatolia or were they always closer to Iran Neolithic?

This is the same process (for Anatolia Chalcolithic) as for Italians and south Europeans in general, isn't it? Modern populations aren't any more or only slightly more pulled toward WHG and EHG than were MN central Europeans. Most of the pull is due to increased "CHG" type admixture. How is that possible though, if the Indo-Europeans who arrived were mixed EHG/CHG like? I've been asking the same question since these papers came out. Unless, perhaps, by that time the Indo-Europeans who arrived in southern Europe weren't very "EHG" or "WHG" like. Still, they weren't Srubnaya like with all that CHG were they?

LeBrok
30-09-16, 17:05
If you look closer you can see that modern Iranians still plot closer to Chalcolithic Iran than to Armenia.

Modern Iranians still plot MUCH closer to the Neolithic Iran than to Bronze Age Steppe. And VERY close to Chalcolithic Iran. It seems that Iranians didn't change much since the Chalcolithic Iran.Isn't there Iran Recent (down pointing triangle) among Armenians?



What do mean with 'Levant/Baloch' in the same sentence? You mean because Levant went up & Baloch went down? Baloch is very different from Levant and both have nothing to with each other. Actually because of Baloch Iranians were shifted up north, closer to ancient ANE.Right, I meant Neolithic Levant/SW Asian.

Goga
30-09-16, 17:08
Isn't there Iran Recent (down pointing triangle) among Armenians?


Right, I meant Neolithic Levant/SW Asian.Just look at the little blue squares which represent modern Iranians. Modern Iranians still plot closer to Chalcolithic Iran than to Armenia. Modern Iranians are even more shifted up to north than Chalcolithic Iran.
Blue circles represent modern Armenians. Armenians are more shifted toward south.


Modern population:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images/nature13673-f2.jpg




And here is the old population:


https://s32.postimg.org/qi9jt7u0z/wykres_PCA.png

A. Papadimitriou
30-09-16, 17:48
SW Asian and some fraction of Mediterranean came in a separate migration.

I didn't do the math but that fraction would be more than 2/3 of it.

If a culture had, let's say:

Mediterranean ~55
NE Euro ~25
SW Asian ~20

it would fit better.

Not that this is how it happened, though. I am not doing science now..

I don't know if what you say is mathematically possible because Shintasha has ~19% 'Baloch', but 'Baloch' decreases.

Goga
30-09-16, 18:06
I didn't do the math but that fraction would be more than 2/3 of it.

If a culture had, let's say:

Mediterranean ~55
NE Euro ~25
SW Asian ~20

it would fit better.

Not that this is how it happened, though. I am not doing science now..

I don't know if what you say is mathematically possible because Shintasha has ~19% 'Baloch', but 'Baloch' decreases.
And Shintasha has apparently not much Caucasian admixture. That Baloch decreases is not an issue. Baloch decreases by 22.88 %!!! That's a lot. While Caucasian auDNA in Iron Age Iranians decrease only by 4.63%. How is it possible when Shintasha doesn't have Caucasian at all ?

It has to be other population. Those who mixed with Copper Age Iranians should have at least 40 % Caucasian admixture. And voila: Armenian Chalcolithic (Copper Age) had 41.35 % of Caucasian. That's why Caucasian auDNA in Iranian dropped just by 4 % points !!!

Everything makes sense, from Caucasian auDNA to Baloch/Gedrosia, NE_European, Mediterranean, SW_Asian. Copper Age Armenians are the best proxies who mixed with the Copper Age Iranians. And it makes lots of sense, since both groups are neighboring each other.

Shintasha is absolutely disqualified as a source of Euro ancestry in Iranians. While the Copper Age Armenians are at this moment the best source population!

Fire Haired14
30-09-16, 22:02
Other calculators are consistent with the idea of excess Iran Neolithic/CHG ancestry in the Sycthian. Check out this new calculator. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XswOpaOowUkH-Io2sjEN1dN9HeLFBKcKPd1K3dxIidc/edit#gid=1956803379) Looks very real. It could be from admixture with Yamnaya-types(They still existed after rise of R1a-Z93 folk. A few have been found in Timber Grave R1a-Z93 burials) or anywhere from the Caucasus to Southern Asia. The Sycthian's R1a is definitely from his Bronze age European ancestors and not from Asia.

LeBrok
01-10-16, 02:14
Just look at the little blue squares which represent modern Iranians. Modern Iranians still plot closer to Chalcolithic Iran than to Armenia. Modern Iranians are even more shifted up to north than Chalcolithic Iran.
Blue circles represent modern Armenians. Armenians are more shifted toward south.They are in between Iran Ch and Armenia Ch/EBA. Definitely today's Iranians are pulled in straight line towards Bronze Age Steppe. From PCA looks like they have mixed about 15% with Bronze Age Steppe, judging by the distance shift. On other hand EHG (2ky before that) were pulled in straight line towards Iranian Neolithic. From the shift distance I would assume about 25% Mix with IN. It means that IN went to Steppe for mixing, IN in Iran wasn't affected. Iranian farmers migrated there.
Later it reversed and in Bronze Age "Steppe Bronze Age" went to Iran and mixed in, shifting ICh to the left, on the chart.

Goga
01-10-16, 21:47
They are in between Iran Ch and Armenia Ch/EBA. Definitely today's Iranians are pulled in straight line towards Bronze Age Steppe. From PCA looks like they have mixed about 15% with Bronze Age Steppe, judging by the distance shift. On other hand EHG (2ky before that) were pulled in straight line towards Iranian Neolithic. From the shift distance I would assume about 25% Mix with IN. It means that IN went to Steppe for mixing, IN in Iran wasn't affected. Iranian farmers migrated there.
Later it reversed and in Bronze Age "Steppe Bronze Age" went to Iran and mixed in, shifting ICh to the left, on the chart.
Of course. This is undeniable.

But so what?

A lot North West Asians (non Iranics) have Steppes admixture. People in Northern Caucasus have much more Steppes ancestry. Steppe ancestry in Kurdistan/Iran is very minor. And it is from a very different population that you have in mind. Steppe ancestry in Kurdistan/Western Iran is obviously from Copper Age Armenians. Just very little is from the European part of the Steppes that came with the backmigration of the Scythians. There is enough documention for this and if you examine the Y-DNA of Western Iranians/Kurds you will find out that there is also Y-DNA hg. I2a in West Asia. And that hg. I2a is not from Central Asia..

LeBrok
01-10-16, 22:13
Of course. This is undeniable.

But so what?

A lot North West Asians (non Iranics) have Steppes admixture. People in Northern Caucasus have much more Steppes ancestry. Steppe ancestry in Kurdistan/Iran is very minor. And it is from a very different population that you have in mind. Steppe ancestry in Kurdistan/Western Iran is obviously from Copper Age Armenians. Just very little is from the European part of the Steppes that came with the backmigration of the Scythians. PCA chart doesn't agree with it. If Steppe admixture came from CA Armenia, then modern Iranians would be pulled towards CA Armenia. Instead Modern Iranians are pulled towards BA Steppe. This agrees with the theory of Steppe invasion of Middle East during Bronze Age.

It is interesting how Modern Armenians plot so differently than Copper Age ones. They must have mixed substantially with Syria/Jordan/Arab people. CA Armenians were more like Modern Turkey population.

Goga
01-10-16, 22:25
PCA chart doesn't agree with it. If Steppe admixture came from CA Armenia, then modern Iranians would be pulled towards CA Armenia. Instead Modern Iranians are pulled towards BA Steppe. This agrees with the theory of Steppe invasion of Middle East during Bronze Age.

It is interesting how Modern Armenians plot so differently than Copper Age ones. They must have mixed substantially with Syria/Jordan/Arab people. CA Armenians were more like Modern Turkey population.Huh? I don't see it. PCA is actually in agreement with my point.

Modern day Iranians plot between Copper Age Armenians and Copper Age Iranians.

Iranians assimilated also many Hurrians that's why modern Iranians shift a little bit more toward the Northern Caucasians that Copper Age Iranians. I'm sure that the Hurrians had also some NE_European ancestry.


I think that many Copper Age Armenians were assimilated by the Iranid (Aryan) people.

Like I said, modern Western Iranians (Kurds & Persians) have for about ~15 % of Hurrian/Armenian ancestry..

How could that happen in Bronze Age WHEN Copper Age Armenians already had NE_European ancestry...

Goga
01-10-16, 22:47
Huh? I don't see it. PCA is actually in agreement with my point.

Modern day Iranians plot between Copper Age Armenians and Copper Age Iranians.

Iranians assimilated also many Hurrians that's why modern Iranians shift a little bit more toward the Northern Caucasians that Copper Age Iranians. I'm sure that the Hurrians had also some NE_European ancestry.


I think that many Copper Age Armenians were assimilated by the Iranid (Aryan) people.

Like I said, modern Western Iranians (Kurds & Persians) have for about ~15 % of Hurrian/Armenian ancestry..

How could that happen in Bronze Age WHEN Copper Age Armenians already had NE_European ancestry...
To make my point more clear here is Population Spreadsheet for HarappaWorld for Caucasian people + Kurds + Iranians.

As you can see Caucasians/Hurrians have more NE_European component than Iranians. NE_Europe component has NOTHING to do with Iranians. Only Baloch/Gedrosia is actually the PUREST Iranid component.


As I said to you Western Iranians assimilated many Hurrians/Caucasians. Some of NE_European in Iranians came from the Hurrians/Caucasians, some from Copper Age Armenians and very little directly from Europe with the Scythians



Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


abhkasian
0.33
18.49
69.15
7.62
0.40
0.83
0.42
0.26
0.30
0.71
0.67
0.71
0.02
0.02
0.01
0.07


adygei
0.53
18.38
56.60
16.37
0.58
3.10
1.01
0.30
0.53
0.67
1.70
0.23
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00


armenian
0.41
17.07
57.29
5.35
0.10
0.29
0.16
0.26
0.22
0.23
8.21
10.40
0.00
0.01
0.00
0.00


armenian
2.12
18.25
46.35
3.32
0.13
0.72
0.92
1.63
0.07
0.62
10.29
14.55
0.57
0.35
0.11
0.00


armenian
0.52
17.65
56.61
2.95
0.13
0.09
0.09
0.27
0.18
0.20
8.40
12.91
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00


azeri
3.03
19.73
45.69
7.84
0.04
3.83
1.41
0.29
0.27
1.36
6.36
9.50
0.12
0.13
0.21
0.17


chechen
0.15
22.44
51.00
20.05
0.40
1.89
0.62
0.30
0.91
0.70
0.87
0.67
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00


georgian
0.29
17.46
71.97
6.38
0.12
0.33
0.23
0.32
0.24
0.37
1.10
1.16
0.02
0.00
0.00
0.00


georgian
0.05
19.93
62.40
6.08
0.40
0.26
0.79
0.55
0.18
0.86
1.83
6.38
0.22
0.06
0.00
0.00


iranian
3.93
27.42
38.80
4.14
0.47
0.95
0.52
0.39
0.34
0.48
4.98
15.08
0.14
0.81
0.30
1.26


iranian
3.69
27.14
40.66
5.33
0.54
1.80
1.49
0.65
0.39
1.11
5.17
11.35
0.21
0.30
0.14
0.03


kumyk
0.38
21.20
47.50
16.16
0.57
3.73
2.85
0.36
0.67
0.61
2.82
3.12
0.00
0.00
0.03
0.00


kurd
3.01
25.64
41.13
4.69
0.43
1.29
0.58
0.81
0.62
0.87
6.38
13.37
0.38
0.55
0.24
0.00


kurd
0.75
27.90
44.12
4.87
0.30
0.57
0.28
0.39
0.75
0.51
4.86
13.94
0.12
0.32
0.13
0.19


kurd
1.56
26.52
45.34
5.55
0.32
0.49
0.58
0.38
0.38
0.19
5.67
12.81
0.09
0.05
0.07
0.00


lezgin
0.02
28.15
46.69
20.10
0.14
1.05
0.32
0.14
0.92
0.84
0.74
0.88
0.02
0.01
0.00
0.00


stalskoe
0.07
23.71
40.73
20.55
1.65
2.76
0.81
0.59
1.56
1.34
3.97
1.55
0.20
0.07
0.24
0.21


urkarah
0.27
27.90
43.17
24.08
0.45
1.05
0.00
0.39
1.10
0.90
0.11
0.29
0.06
0.06
0.12
0.05


north-ossetian
0.28
19.35
45.41
13.79
0.97
5.35
3.10
1.41
1.32
0.57
4.12
3.08
0.51
0.00
0.75
0.00


north-ossetian
0.10
18.43
56.38
14.71
0.27
3.91
2.92
0.39
0.55
1.14
1.08
0.10
0.01
0.01
0.00
0.00

Goga
01-10-16, 23:14
Just notice how much East Iranian Ossetians -who are direct descendants of Eastern Iranian Alanians- have of that NE_Euro admixture. Those Eastern Iranian speaking Alanians were related to the Scythians

Notice also how much of NE_Europe admixture in Hurrian Lezgins from Dagestan Lezgins are Hurrians people and speak a Northeast Caucasian language (Hurrian). Of all Hurrians they have actually even more Baloch admixture than Kurds/Iranians. I think those Lezgians are heavily Iranized by ancient Medes who lived in Azerbaijan. Genetically Lezgians are even more Iranid than their East Iranian speaking neighbors the Ossetians. Also Hurrian Urkarah from Dagestan are very similar to Lezgin brothers.

Look also at the Hurrians Chechens. They have also very much Baloch & NE_European ancestry. But like all other Hurrians Baloch is always higher than NE_European ancestry.


And REAL modern Hurrians don't have much of SW_Asian admixture. Instead they have more NE_Europe component.


Many of those Hurrians were assimilated by the Copper Age Iranid (Aryan) people. So, this is also the source of NE_European ancestry in Kurdistan/Western Iran.


NE_European ancestry in Kurdistan and Western Iran is mostly from the Copper Age Armenians and Hurrians !



So sport, who are you kidding? And stop dreaming and get real ...

Sile
01-10-16, 23:42
Just notice how much East Iranian Ossetians -who are direct descendants of Eastern Iranian Alanians- have of that NE_Euro admixture. Those Eastern Iranian speaking Alanians were related to the Scythians

Notice also how much of NE_Europe admixture in Hurrian Lezgins from Dagestan Lezgins are Hurrians people and speak a Northeast Caucasian language (Hurrian). Of all Hurrians they have actually even more Baloch admixture than Kurds/Iranians. I think those Lezgians are heavily Iranized by ancient Medes who lived in Azerbaijan. Genetically Lezgians are even more Iranid than their East Iranian speaking neighbors the Ossetians. Also Hurrian Urkarah from Dagestan are very similar to Lezgin brothers.

Look also at the Hurrians Chechens. They have also very much Baloch & NE_European ancestry. But like all other Hurrians Baloch is always higher than NE_European ancestry.


And REAL modern Hurrians don't have much of SW_Asian admixture. Instead they have more NE_Europe component.


Many of those Hurrians were assimilated by the Copper Age Iranid (Aryan) people. So, this is also the source of NE_European ancestry in Kurdistan/Western Iran.


NE_European ancestry in Kurdistan and Western Iran is mostly from the Copper Age Armenians and Hurrians !



So sport, who are you kidding? And stop dreaming and get real ...



I hope you are not following this ....below

http://aschmann.net/BibleChronology/Genesis10.pdf

The very basic principal is that if a haplogroup comes from K-M9 tree it is west-asian and south-asian and hence non-semitic ...............

who does not have this marker has a chance to be an origin of the semitic race , so many jews claim they are jewish when their origins say otherwise...............

.but we all know semitic is now part of a language tree and so anyone ( haplo marker ) can have it

Goga
02-10-16, 00:07
I hope you are not following this ....below

http://aschmann.net/BibleChronology/Genesis10.pdf

The very basic principal is that if a haplogroup comes from K-M9 tree it is west-asian and south-asian and hence non-semitic ...........religious fables ..............

who does not have this marker has a chance to be an origin of the semitic race , so many jews claim they are jewish when their origins say otherwise...............

.but we all know semitic is now part of a language tree and so anyone ( haplo marker ) can have it
Thank you very much for sharing it. This is new for me, so I don't follow it. I'll read it.

I do agree with you that haplogroups are older than 'races'. I still do believe that Semitic languages were born when some clades of Y-DNA 'E' mixed with some subclades of Y-DNA hg. 'J1'.

Jews are VERY mixed people. Jews from Europe, Africa and Central Asia are all very different from each other. Still they share the same religion and language. But I do believe that deep roots of all Jews lie in the Levant (Judea). There is still something Semitic about all kind of Jews. European Jews are still not really European. They are between Southern Europe and Levant. African Jews are still not the same as black African. African Jews are still more shifted toward the Levant.

MarkoZ
02-10-16, 17:19
This is the same process (for Anatolia Chalcolithic) as for Italians and south Europeans in general, isn't it? Modern populations aren't any more or only slightly more pulled toward WHG and EHG than were MN central Europeans. Most of the pull is due to increased "CHG" type admixture. How is that possible though, if the Indo-Europeans who arrived were mixed EHG/CHG like? I've been asking the same question since these papers came out. Unless, perhaps, by that time the Indo-Europeans who arrived in southern Europe weren't very "EHG" or "WHG" like. Still, they weren't Srubnaya like with all that CHG were they?

Mariya Ivanova in her study of the pre-historic cultures around the Black Sea stresses that the technology from the Chalcolithic onward tended to spread across what she calls the 'Royal Road' - a corridor connecting the Near Eastern highlands, Anatolia and the Balkans, terminating in the Carpathian Basin. The grasslands north of the Caucasus on the other hand weren't very well suited to the spread of innovation due to their low effective population density and the lack of discernible social organization, the Royal Road thus being the most immediate vector for the dispersal of technology into Europe.

My hypothesis that there was a separate migration emanating out of the Taurus-Zagros range or the surrounding areas (which comprises most hotbeds of human innovation from the Chalcolithic until historic times) into south-eastern Europe, causing the somewhat elevated affinity to the Iran-Caucasus populations found in the Balkans, the Aegean and parts of Italy today. Indeed, the sudden appearances of the various deliberately produced bronze alloys in the European Mediterranean and the hypothetical concomitant migrations could have already had a enough of an impact to cause a substantial shift to the Near East before the onset of the Iron Age.

Ivanova believes that the emergence of the Baden complex, for example, was one the results of these impetuses from the Near East. Recently specialists alluded to similar affinities of the early Baden culture and see the Bulgarian Yunatsite and Ezero cultures as early entry points into Europe from West Asia [source: Lolita Nikolova. Balkan-Anatolian Cultural Horizons from the Fourth Millennium BC and Their Relations to the Baden Cultural Complex].

Irrespective of the precise nature of these migrations, Ivanova's "The Black Sea and the Early Civilizations of Europe, the Near East, and Asia" is a rare gem and the processes she describes might be key for understanding the peopling of southern Europe.

Angela
02-10-16, 17:47
Mariya Ivanova in her study of the pre-historic cultures around the Black Sea stresses that the technology from the Chalcolithic onward tended to spread across what she calls the 'Royal Road' - a corridor connecting the Near Eastern highlands, Anatolia and the Balkans, terminating in the Carpathian Basin. The grasslands north of the Caucasus on the other hand weren't very well suited to the spread of innovation due to their low effective population density and the lack of discernible social organization, the Royal Road thus being the most immediate vector for the dispersal of technology into Europe.

My hypothesis that there was a separate migration emanating out of the Taurus-Zagros range or the surrounding areas (which comprises most hotbeds of human innovation from the Chalcolithic until historic times) into south-eastern Europe, causing the somewhat elevated affinity to the Iran-Caucasus populations found in the Balkans, the Aegean and parts of Italy today. Indeed, the sudden appearances of the various deliberately produced bronze alloys in the European Mediterranean and the hypothetical concomitant migrations could have already had a enough of an impact to cause a substantial shift to the Near East before the onset of the Iron Age.

Ivanova believes that the emergence of the Baden complex, for example, was one the results of these impetuses from the Near East. Recently specialists alluded to similar affinities of the early Baden culture and see the Bulgarian Yunatsite and Ezero cultures as early entry points into Europe from West Asia [source: Lolita Nikolova. Balkan-Anatolian Cultural Horizons from the Fourth Millennium BC and Their Relations to the Baden Cultural Complex].

Irrespective of the precise nature of these migrations, Ivanova's "The Black Sea and the Early Civilizations of Europe, the Near East, and Asia" is a rare gem and the processes she describes might be key for understanding the peopling of southern Europe.


Extremely helpful and interesting, Marko Z. I'm going to see if I can get hold of it. Thanks.

Dibran
10-10-16, 01:49
I'm Albanian. R1a1a ydna and H11a mtdna. What do these results mean?

Population
S-Indian -
Baloch 4.61
Caucasian 30.35
NE-Euro 26.52
SE-Asian 0.05
Siberian 0.41
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.10
American -
Beringian 0.24
Mediterranean 29.62
SW-Asian 8.05
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

Tomenable
12-10-16, 00:40
Ancient Armenians on Gedmatch:

kit M926386 - sample I1631 Armenia Copper Age
kit M340653 - sample I1635 Armenia Early Bronze Age
kit M536324 - sample I1658 Armenia Early Bronze Age
kit M182163 - sample I1656 Armenia Middle Bronze Age
kit M575241 - sample RISE423 Armenia Middle Bronze Age
kit M930063 - sample RISE423 Armenia Middle Bronze Age*
kit M497255 - sample RISE397 Armenia Late Bronze Age
kit M691697 - sample RISE407 Armenia Late Bronze Age

*RISE423 has been uploaded twice by two different persons.

Tomenable
15-10-16, 18:35
Dodecad K12b:

Orange = changes associated with Copper Age; red = with Bronze-Iron Age:

https://s10.postimg.org/dymkjnhwp/Metal_Transition.png

https://s10.postimg.org/dymkjnhwp/Metal_Transition.png

^^^ Armenia is interesting.

Copper Age Areni-1 (I1631) has a high % of "NorthEurope", then it declines in Early Bronze Age Kura-Araxes samples (I1658 and I1635), and then it once again increases in Middle-Late Bronze Age samples (all of Armenian RISE + I1656).

Copper Age Armenian sample (I1631) was from this place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areni-1_cave_complex

Tomenable
16-10-16, 00:50
Here are some ancient DNA samples from Asia Minor on Gedmach:

Kum4 (from Kumtepe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe)) is Indo-European, and has a lot of Steppe admixture:



Age in years
Period/culture
Gedmatch kit
Sample ID


~8635
Neolithic
Z145547
Tep002


~8350
Neolithic
M411713
I1583


~8350
Neolithic
M754279
I0746


~8350
Neolithic
M936428
I0709


~8350
Neolithic
M897077
I0707


~5826
Copper Age
M091434
I1584


~5150
Early Bronze
M300627
Kum4

Tomenable
16-10-16, 01:50
I tested those ancient Anatolian samples with this calculator:

GedrosiaDNA - Eurasia K14 Neolithic:

https://s17.postimg.org/vsy61q40f/Steppe_Migration_Anatolia.png

https://s17.postimg.org/vsy61q40f/Steppe_Migration_Anatolia.png

Kum4 = Kumtepe B period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe


Around 3700 BC [~5700 years ago] new settlers came to Kumtepe. The people of this new culture, Kumtepe B, built relatively large houses with multiple rooms, sometimes a porch. They also practiced animal husbandry and agriculture. The main domestic animals were goats and sheep, bred not only for meat but for milk and wool as well. They knew lead and bronze along with copper. Shortly after 3000 BC Yassıtepe and Hisarlık (Troy) were colonized probably from Kumtepe.

Edit:

One Neolithic sample - I0746 - actually scored 2,5% Yamnaya-Afanasievo, but I added it to "other".

All the remaining four Neolithic samples scored zero (-) of Yamnaya-Afanasievo, exactly as expected.

LeBrok
16-10-16, 03:28
I tested those ancient Anatolian samples with this calculator:

GedrosiaDNA - Eurasia K14 Neolithic:

https://s17.postimg.org/vsy61q40f/Steppe_Migration_Anatolia.png

https://s17.postimg.org/vsy61q40f/Steppe_Migration_Anatolia.png

Kum4 = Kumtepe B period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe



Edit:

One Neolithic sample - I0746 - actually scored 2,5% Yamnaya-Afanasievo, but I added it to "other".

All the remaining four Neolithic samples scored zero (-) of Yamnaya-Afanasievo, exactly as expected.

That's what I was getting from Harappa Armenian runs. Sharp increase of Steppe NE European admixture in Armenia and Anatolia since Bronze Age. Yamnaya expansion? Here we can see even earlier encroachment almost 4000 BC! Well, at least in Western Turkey. Kind of bizarre. Perhaps by way of sea?
Kumtepe is also incredible. No SW Asian?

Tomenable
16-10-16, 15:29
Kumtepe is also incredible. No SW Asian?

David W. Anthony wrote that Proto-Anatolian speakers came from the Steppe to the Balkans ca. 4200-4000 BC. Those who came to Kumtepe ca. 3700 BC were the same wave of IE migrants who had settled in the Balkans before. This explains why Kum4 had no any SW Asian admixture*, but only Steppe and Neolithic EEF - they mixed with farmers in the Balkans, then moved to Anatolia.

Yamnaya admixture in Areni-1 is harder to explain, but they didn't have as much of it as Kumtepe B.

====================

*SW Asian = more or less Levantine.

LeBrok
16-10-16, 17:29
David W. Anthony wrote that Proto-Anatolian speakers came from the Steppe to the Balkans ca. 4200-4000 BC. Those who came to Kumtepe ca. 3700 BC were the same wave of IE migrants who had settled in the Balkans before. This explains why Kum4 had no any SW Asian admixture*, but only Steppe and Neolithic EEF - they mixed with farmers in the Balkans, then moved to Anatolia.

Yamnaya admixture in Areni-1 is harder to explain, but they didn't have as much of it as Kumtepe B.

====================

*SW Asian = more or less Levantine.
How would Yamnaya person look in K14?

LeBrok
09-12-16, 21:14
These are Harappa runs of Copper and Bronze age Iberians, first two rows. I have found their best match, comparing tens of other genomes, to be Neolithic European Farmers in general, but not exactly. All farmers are high in Mediterranean admixture. Notably, CA Iberian has the highest ever at 63%! The elevated NE admixture of CA Iberian is from WHG, and is higher than in Hungarian Copper Age (next column). I think it is typical for Iberian Neolithic. I wish Gedmatch had Early Neolithic sample from Iberia to confirm.

Now, Iberian Bronze Age (ATP9) has lower Med admixture, and elevated NE Euro and Caucasus. This points to more WHG/EHG admixture. Obviously the CA Iberians mixed with other population to become BA Iberians. Who could have been the source of these changes? I'm presenting two more rans, Bronze Age Hungarian and Unetice Culture samples, in Harappa runs. Seems like BR1 Hungarian is much better fit for Bronze Age invaders into Iberia. It has very low Baloch, which can easily vanish ones it gets to Iberia, unlike Unetice Baloch admixture which is at 12%.
Baloch is similar to Gedrosia and always existed in Iran, Caucasus and Steppe HGs populations.

I suspect that Hungarian Bronze could have come from West Yanaya or North Cucuteni or from mix of West Yamnaya and Cucuteni, which theoretically should have had lower Baloch, being farther away from Steppe.









CA Iberia, ATP2, M849224
BA Iberian, ATP9, M116706


CO1 Hungary


BR1 Hungary


Unetice I0116, M425717


Population


Population


Population


Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
3.15

Baloch
12.21


Caucasian
4.19

Caucasian
7.33

Caucasian
19.26

Caucasian
14.73

Caucasian
2.27


NE-Euro
24.19

NE-Euro
36.77

NE-Euro
16.74

NE-Euro
46.18

NE-Euro
58.33


SE-Asian
0.23

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.2

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.23

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
0.18

Papuan
-


American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

American
0.88


Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
63.33

Mediterranean
55.74

Mediterranean
55.37

Mediterranean
31.73

Mediterranean
26.25


SW-Asian
5.14

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
8.52

SW-Asian
3.33

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.07


W-African
2.69

W-African
0.15

W-African
0.1

W-African
0.48

W-African
-




Is Bronze Age Hungary a place where R1b developed their bronze weapons and military prowess before moving South and West? Baden Culture?

LeBrok
10-12-16, 03:59
BR1 Hungary


IR Hungary


scythian


Srubna culture, 3.5kya


Population


Population


Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
0.67

S-Indian
-


Baloch
3.15

Baloch
14.83

Baloch
24.99

Baloch
19.64


Caucasian
14.73

Caucasian
15.12

Caucasian
7.68

Caucasian
6


NE-Euro
46.18

NE-Euro
43.91

NE-Euro
45.27

NE-Euro
56.05


SE-Asian
0.2

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.83

SE-Asian
0.09


Siberian
-

Siberian
2.97

Siberian
6.39

Siberian
0.66


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
1.31

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.18

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
-

American
2.03

American
2.85

American
0.2


Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
1.4

Beringian
0.15


Mediterranean
31.73

Mediterranean
21.14

Mediterranean
8.62

Mediterranean
16.91


SW-Asian
3.33

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.48

W-African
-

W-African
-

W-African
0.29





Looks like Iron Age Hungarian is a cross of about 50% Bronze Age Hungarian and 50% Scythian, the Steppe new invader. Interestingly there seems to be a connection of IR Hungarian and Srubna Culture, though not directly as Srubna is many centuries older than IR Hungary.

Joey D
10-12-16, 04:35
My Harappa results:



1
Caucasian
37.71


2
Mediterranean
24.56


3
NE-Euro
15.28


4
SW-Asian
10.94


5
Baloch
8.96


6
Papuan
0.77


7
W-African
0.76


8
E-African
0.5





#
Population (source)
Distance


1
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
5.34


2
ashkenazi (harappa)
6.68


3
sephardic-jew (behar)
9.31


4
morocco-jew (behar)
12.1


5
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
12.89


6
tuscan (1000genomes)
13.74


7
tuscan (hgdp)
14.33


8
tuscan (hapmap)
14.98


9
cypriot (behar)
15.52


10
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
17.03





#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

65.8%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
34.2%
azerbaijan-jew (behar)
@
1.83


2

65.1%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
34.9%
georgia-jew (behar)
@
2.07


3

65.8%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
34.2%
assyrian (harappa)
@
2.13


4

63.6%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
36.4%
lebanese-druze (haber)
@
2.48


5

66.2%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
33.8%
armenian (yunusbayev)
@
2.55


6

71%
cypriot (behar)
+
29%
french (hgdp)
@
2.56


7

53.4%
italian (hgdp)
+
46.6%
azerbaijan-jew (behar)
@
2.6


8

52.6%
italian (hgdp)
+
47.4%
georgia-jew (behar)
@
2.78


9

67.1%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
32.9%
iranian-jew (behar)
@
2.8


10

61.7%
tuscan (hapmap)
+
38.3%
lebanese-christian (haber)
@
2.99





Using 4 populations approximation:
1 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.035586
2 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.038698
3 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.058087
4 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.093112
5 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.115652
6 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.121329
7 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.160678
8 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.188504
9 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.190425
10 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.206224

Pax Augusta
10-12-16, 05:27
My Harappa results:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 65.8% tuscan (1000genomes) + 34.2% azerbaijan-jew (behar) @ 1.83
2 65.1% tuscan (1000genomes) + 34.9% georgia-jew (behar) @ 2.07
3 65.8% tuscan (1000genomes) + 34.2% assyrian (harappa) @ 2.13
4 63.6% tuscan (1000genomes) + 36.4% lebanese-druze (haber) @ 2.48
5 66.2% tuscan (1000genomes) + 33.8% armenian (yunusbayev) @ 2.55
6 71% cypriot (behar) + 29% french (hgdp) @ 2.56
7 53.4% italian (hgdp) + 46.6% azerbaijan-jew (behar) @ 2.6
8 52.6% italian (hgdp) + 47.4% georgia-jew (behar) @ 2.78
9 67.1% tuscan (1000genomes) + 32.9% iranian-jew (behar) @ 2.8
10 61.7% tuscan (hapmap) + 38.3% lebanese-christian (haber) @ 2.99


Which part of East Sicily? Italian HGDP is North Italian from Bergamo on Harappa.

Joey D
10-12-16, 05:39
Which part of East Sicily? Italian HGDP is North Italian from Bergamo on Harappa.

Four generations, that I am aware of, all from that area immediately east of Parco dell'Etna, from Acireale in the South to Fiumefreddo in the North (close to the border of Provincia di Messina).

LeBrok
10-12-16, 06:52
My Harappa results:



1
Caucasian
37.71


2
Mediterranean
24.56


3
NE-Euro
15.28


4
SW-Asian
10.94


5
Baloch
8.96


6
Papuan
0.77


7
W-African
0.76


8
E-African
0.5



Very storn Caucasian admixture. Strong like in Northern Part or Near East. I wonder if all Sicily is like this?

Joey D
10-12-16, 07:16
Very storn Caucasian admixture. Strong like in Northern Part or Near East. I wonder if all Sicily is like this?

I don't know, but on other forums, like on GEDMatch, my results look typically Sicilian.

I'm really curious to find out more - one reason why I'm here - there's a piece of the jigsaw puzzle that I'm just not quite getting my head around - either these high Caucasus readings are going back to Neolithic migrations, and/or are also carried by the earliest Greek migrations...or they are a hint on the origins of the Sicels - or we are talking about the same thing - that all these groups are actually closely related, and the differences are temporal (which is interesting in its own right).

LeBrok
10-12-16, 07:36
I don't know, but on other forums, like on GEDMatch, my results look typically Sicilian.

I'm really curious to find out more - one reason why I'm here - there's a piece of the jigsaw puzzle that I'm just not quite getting my head around - either these high Caucasus readings are going back to Neolithic migrations, and/or are also carried by the earliest Greek migrations...or they are a hint on the origins of the Sicels - or we are talking about the same thing - that all these groups are actually closely related, and the differences are temporal (which is interesting in its own right).Caucasian admixture might as well be normal for Sicily, though it is a bit higher what Neolithic EEF brought to Europe, and invasions of IEs and Northern Europeans would lower it further. In this case there must have been substantial migration from Anatolia or Costal Near East to Sicily since Bronze Age to increase Caucasian admixture. Possibly few events including Greeks, Phoenicians, Jews, etc

Do someone from Eupedia members know where we can find Harappa runs for European countries?

Joey D
10-12-16, 08:12
The previous page has a map showing what I assume to be the Harappa plots, and unsurprisingly, Sicily, Malta and Ashkenazi plot very close together.

The closest ancient plot is Chalcolithic Anatolia, which makes some sense.

Then there is this interesting post from MarkoZ on the same page:

"Mariya Ivanova in her study of the pre-historic cultures around the Black Sea stresses that the technology from the Chalcolithic onward tended to spread across what she calls the 'Royal Road' - a corridor connecting the Near Eastern highlands, Anatolia and the Balkans, terminating in the Carpathian Basin. The grasslands north of the Caucasus on the other hand weren't very well suited to the spread of innovation due to their low effective population density and the lack of discernible social organization, the Royal Road thus being the most immediate vector for the dispersal of technology into Europe.

My hypothesis that there was a separate migration emanating out of the Taurus-Zagros range or the surrounding areas (which comprises most hotbeds of human innovation from the Chalcolithic until historic times) into south-eastern Europe, causing the somewhat elevated affinity to the Iran-Caucasus populations found in the Balkans, the Aegean and parts of Italy today. Indeed, the sudden appearances of the various deliberately produced bronze alloys in the European Mediterranean and the hypothetical concomitant migrations could have already had a enough of an impact to cause a substantial shift to the Near East before the onset of the Iron Age. "

New Englander
18-12-16, 23:04
# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 27.99
2 Mediterranean 25.86
3 NE-Euro 24.09
4 SW-Asian 10.42
5 Baloch 9.4
6 American 0.64
7 SE-Asian 0.49
8 W-African 0.39
9 Papuan 0.25
10 Beringian 0.24
11 S-Indian 0.23


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 tuscan (1000genomes) 7.36
2 tuscan (hgdp) 7.73
3 tuscan (hapmap) 8.33
4 ashkenazi (harappa) 8.52
5 ashkenazy-jew (behar) 10.95
6 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 12.4
7 romanian-a (behar) 12.79
8 italian (hgdp) 14.03
9 sephardic-jew (behar) 17.35
10 morocco-jew (behar) 17.79
11 turk-aydin (hodoglugil) 18.63
12 romanian-b (behar) 24.65
13 spaniard (behar) 24.67
14 turk-istanbul (hodoglugil) 25.19
15 spaniard (1000genomes) 25.5
16 turk-kayseri (hodoglugil) 26.07
17 french (hgdp) 26.43
18 hungarian (behar) 26.61
19 cypriot (behar) 26.69
20 turk (behar) 27.29


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.2% french (hgdp) + 43.8% lebanese-druze (haber) @ 1.61
2 56.2% french (hgdp) + 43.8% lebanese-christian (haber) @ 1.67
3 56.7% cypriot (behar) + 43.3% british (1000genomes) @ 1.87
4 58.4% cypriot (behar) + 41.6% orcadian (hgdp) @ 1.96
5 77.7% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 22.3% orcadian (hgdp) @ 2.26
6 76.5% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 23.5% british (1000genomes) @ 2.32
7 55.6% cypriot (behar) + 44.4% utahn-white (1000genomes) @ 2.33
8 75.7% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 24.3% utahn-white (1000genomes) @ 2.33
9 75.9% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 24.1% n-european (xing) @ 2.65
10 50.2% french (hgdp) + 49.8% cypriot (behar) @ 2.65
11 54.1% french (hgdp) + 45.9% lebanese-muslim (haber) @ 2.83
12 57.1% french (hgdp) + 42.9% georgia-jew (behar) @ 2.96
13 71.4% ashkenazy-jew (behar) + 28.6% french (hgdp) @ 3.08
14 59.5% french (hgdp) + 40.5% druze (hgdp) @ 3.09
15 82.4% ashkenazi (harappa) + 17.6% orcadian (hgdp) @ 3.11
16 81.4% ashkenazi (harappa) + 18.6% british (1000genomes) @ 3.16
17 60.8% sephardic-jew (behar) + 39.2% hungarian (behar) @ 3.19
18 80.9% ashkenazi (harappa) + 19.1% utahn-white (1000genomes) @ 3.3
19 77% ashkenazi (harappa) + 23% french (hgdp) @ 3.38
20 58.6% romanian-a (behar) + 41.4% morocco-jew (behar) @ 3.41

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% french +25% georgia-jew +25% sephardic-jew @ 1.555397




Using 4 populations approximation:
1 ashkenazy-jew + british + georgia-jew + italian @ 0.868904
2 basque + cypriot + iraq-jew + ukranian @ 0.960263
3 ashkenazy-jew + georgia-jew + italian + utahn-white @ 1.020719
4 cypriot + iraq-jew + spain-basc + ukranian @ 1.072419
5 basque + cypriot + iranian-jew + ukranian @ 1.098566
6 ashkenazy-jew + assyrian + hungarian + spaniard @ 1.110787
7 ashkenazy-jew + azerbaijan-jew + hungarian + spaniard @ 1.119947
8 ashkenazy-jew + iraq-jew + italian + utahn-white @ 1.132655
9 georgia-jew + italian + orcadian + sephardic-jew @ 1.140920
10 ashkenazy-jew + georgia-jew + hungarian + spaniard @ 1.151600
11 ashkenazi + iraq-jew + italian + utahn-white @ 1.186620
12 iraq-jew + tuscan + tuscan + utahn-white @ 1.206571
13 british + cypriot + french + lebanese-christian @ 1.240409
14 ashkenazi + french + italian + uzbekistan-jew @ 1.245210
15 iranian-jew + serbian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.246615
16 ashkenazy-jew + georgia-jew + hungarian + spaniard @ 1.286285
17 iraq-jew + serbian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.287919
18 ashkenazi + iranian-jew + italian + utahn-white @ 1.292424
19 basque + cypriot + georgia-jew + ukranian @ 1.302049
20 iraq-jew + serbian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.311692

LeBrok
19-12-16, 03:54
Did someone see Harappa admixture table done per European countries?

LeBrok
22-12-16, 21:43
Where can I find a recent Gedmatch list with descriptions and numbers of ancient samples, please? Any new ancient samples added?

Joey D
24-12-16, 02:49
Modern population:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images/nature13673-f2.jpg



Just wanted to get this map up again from the previous page, has anyone here ever discussed why Sicilian, Maltese and Ashkenazi plot so close together?

On this map, Sicilians are plotting closer to Ashkenazi than Greek (Sicilian mid-way between Greek and Turkish Jew).

Why do they plot so closely together?

LeBrok
24-12-16, 04:11
Just wanted to get this map up again from the previous page, has anyone here ever discussed why Sicilian, Maltese and Ashkenazi plot so close together?

On this map, Sicilians are plotting closer to Ashkenazi than Greek (Sicilian mid-way between Greek and Turkish Jew).

Why do they plot so closely together? Without getting into detail (which I might not know, lol) they both have similar source populations, like Levant Neolithic, EEF, some ANE to start with, plus Ashkenazy "formulated" some of their genome in Southern Europe, probably during Roman Empire. With all of this they should fit closer to Turkish Jews, to the right of their current position. However, because they had spent some time in Eastern Europe they got a bit of their genetics and this pulled them more to the left towards Ukraine and Belarus, placing them accidently where Sicilians are.
Populations don't need to be 100% identical to plot in the same place, sometimes it is accidental. We know that Spanish or Sardinians are not exactly EEF, but they plot like they were.

Joey D
24-12-16, 05:28
Without getting into detail (which I might not know, lol) they both have similar source populations, like Levant Neolithic, EEF, some ANE to start with, plus Ashkenazy "formulated" some of their genome in Southern Europe, probably during Roman Empire. With all of this they should fit closer to Turkish Jews, to the right of their current position. However, because they had spent some time in Eastern Europe they got a bit of their genetics and this pulled them more to the left towards Ukraine and Belarus, placing them accidently where Sicilians are.
Populations don't need to be 100% identical to plot in the same place, sometimes it is accidental. We know that Spanish or Sardinians are not exactly EEF, but they plot like they were.

So you have touched on a few possible, inter-related theories:
1. similar source populations, from the Near East, Levant, etc (a bit to that I think)
2. Jewish migrations during the Roman epoch (hmmm, maybe)
3. Coincidental plotting, an historical quirk, different bits of DNA have accidentally pulled them close together (a possibility, except for the myriad opportunities which have existed to cross paths, except for the last 4 or 5 centuries).

On the coincidental plotting, and I have come across this elsewhere doing my own amateur research, would the various GEDMatch tests be able to recognise bits of DNA which are only superficially similar to Ashkenazi? Why do these tests keep throwing up Ashkenazi, not just me, but other Sicilians, in fact, often putting Ashkenazi before Sicilian/Sth Italian/Greek, etc.

So, to my mind, none of this is explaining it all well enough (unless the simple answer is that these tests are not very accurate, in which case, it becomes all a pointless discussion).

LeBrok
24-12-16, 06:09
So you have touched on a few possible, inter-related theories:
1. similar source populations, from the Near East, Levant, etc (a bit to that I think)
2. Jewish migrations during the Roman epoch (hmmm, maybe)
3. Coincidental plotting, an historical quirk, different bits of DNA have accidentally pulled them close together (a possibility, except for the myriad opportunities which have existed to cross paths, except for the last 4 or 5 centuries).

On the coincidental plotting, and I have come across this elsewhere doing my own amateur research, would the various GEDMatch tests be able to recognise bits of DNA which are only superficially similar to Ashkenazi? Why do these tests keep throwing up Ashkenazi, not just me, but other Sicilians, in fact, often putting Ashkenazi before Sicilian/Sth Italian/Greek, etc.

So, to my mind, none of this is explaining it all well enough (unless the simple answer is that these tests are not very accurate, in which case, it becomes all a pointless discussion).

Found few genomes to compare. Unfortunately I don't have European populations yet except mine. Nobody cares doing it for Europe I guess.






Polish


Joey D


Ashkenazy


Palestinian



Population


Population


Population


Population



S-Indian
1

S-Indian


S-Indian
1

S-Indian
1


Baloch
7

Baloch
9

Baloch
7

Baloch
7


Caucasian
10

Caucasian
38

Caucasian
34

Caucasian
39


NE-Euro
57

NE-Euro
15

NE-Euro
16

NE-Euro
1


SE-Asian
1

SE-Asian


SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0


Siberian
1

Siberian


Siberian
1

Siberian
0


NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian


NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
0


Papuan
-

Papuan
1

Papuan
0

Papuan
0


American
-

American


American
0

American
0


Beringian
0

Beringian


Beringian
0

Beringian
0


Mediterranean
22

Mediterranean
25

Mediterranean
24

Mediterranean
12


SW-Asian
1

SW-Asian
11

SW-Asian
15

SW-Asian
31


San
-

San


San
0

San
0


E-African
-

E-African
1

E-African
1

E-African
5


Pygmy
-

Pygmy


Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0


W-African
-

W-African
1

W-African
0

W-African
0

Joey D
24-12-16, 08:35
^ Very close fit, I have 4% more Caucasian, the Ashkenazi has 4% more SW-Asian, no wonder I keep returning high Ashkenazi in all these various tests, especially Harappa:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
5.34


2
ashkenazi (harappa)
6.68


3
sephardic-jew (behar)
9.31


4
morocco-jew (behar)
12.1


5
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
12.89


6
tuscan (1000genomes)
13.74


7
tuscan (hgdp)
14.33


8
tuscan (hapmap)
14.98


9
cypriot (behar)
15.52


10
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
17.03





#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

65.8%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
34.2%
azerbaijan-jew (behar)
@
1.83


2

65.1%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
34.9%
georgia-jew (behar)
@
2.07


3

65.8%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
34.2%
assyrian (harappa)
@
2.13


4

63.6%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
36.4%
lebanese-druze (haber)
@
2.48


5

66.2%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
33.8%
armenian (yunusbayev)
@
2.55


6

71%
cypriot (behar)
+
29%
french (hgdp)
@
2.56


7

53.4%
italian (hgdp)
+
46.6%
azerbaijan-jew (behar)
@
2.6


8

52.6%
italian (hgdp)
+
47.4%
georgia-jew (behar)
@
2.78


9

67.1%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
32.9%
iranian-jew (behar)
@
2.8


10

61.7%
tuscan (hapmap)
+
38.3%
lebanese-christian (haber)
@
2.99

Hauteville
24-12-16, 12:41
Just wanted to get this map up again from the previous page, has anyone here ever discussed why Sicilian, Maltese and Ashkenazi plot so close together?

On this map, Sicilians are plotting closer to Ashkenazi than Greek (Sicilian mid-way between Greek and Turkish Jew).

Why do they plot so closely together?
In this map the Greeks were from the North of the country, if they use Southern Greeks and Islander they plot very similar of us, you should see it in this map.

https://s23.postimg.org/hurbsvat7/F2_large.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/8mz3c63qv/)image hosting (https://postimage.org/index.php?lang=italian)

LeBrok
24-12-16, 18:47
Please post your HarappaWorld admixtures. I'm going to compile a table for European countries.

clarbg
27-12-16, 10:29
1 NE-Euro 48.21
2 Mediterranean 33.12
3 Baloch 9.66
4 Caucasian 5.36
5 S-Indian 1.75
6 American 0.86
7 NE-Asian 0.46
8 SE-Asian 0.4
9 Papuan 0.18

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 utahn-white (1000genomes) 2.93
2 british (1000genomes) 3.78
3 utahn-white (hapmap) 4.8
4 n-european (xing) 5.26
5 orcadian (hgdp) 6.38
6 french (hgdp) 7.77
7 hungarian (behar) 12.33
8 slovenian (xing) 13.54
9 ukranian (yunusbayev) 18.91
10 spaniard (behar) 19.52
11 spaniard (1000genomes) 20.39
12 belorussian (behar) 22.51
13 romanian-a (behar) 23.81
14 mordovian (yunusbayev) 23.83
15 italian (hgdp) 24.17
16 russian (behar) 25.03
17 russian (hgdp) 25.8
18 spain-basc (henn2012) 26.18
19 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 26.18
20 lithuanian (behar) 27.26

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.6% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 6.4% puerto-rican (1000genomes) @ 1.98
2 93.3% british (1000genomes) + 6.7% romanian-b (behar) @ 1.99
3 97.5% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5% kharia (reich) @ 2.01
4 97.6% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.4% santhal (reich) @ 2.01
5 97.5% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5% ho (chaubey) @ 2.01
6 97.2% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.8% onge (reich) @ 2.02
7 97.5% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5% kharia (chaubey) @ 2.02
8 97.5% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5% savara (chaubey) @ 2.02
9 97.7% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.3% pulliyar (metspalu) @ 2.02
10 97.6% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.4% asur (chaubey) @ 2.02
11 97.8% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.2% paniya (chaubey) @ 2.02
12 97% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 3% great-andamanese (reich) @ 2.04
13 97.7% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.3% irula (xing) @ 2.04
14 97.5% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5% juang (chaubey) @ 2.04
15 97.5% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5% bonda (chaubey) @ 2.04
16 97.5% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5% nihali (metspalu) @ 2.06
17 97.4% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.6% sahariya (reich) @ 2.07
18 95% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 5% colombian (1000genomes) @ 2.07
19 90.7% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 9.3% spaniard (1000genomes) @ 2.08
20 97.5% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5% gond (metspalu) @ 2.11

Joey D
27-12-16, 12:01
what does utahn mean? is that referring to the state of Utah?

Angela
27-12-16, 16:58
what does utahn mean? is that referring to the state of Utah?

Yes. Years ago, a sample was taken from the Mormon community in Utah, and was often used as a surrogate for "European" ancestry. It's actually a good surrogate for northwestern European ancestry, as the Mormons are basically of British Isles descent, along with some more minor German and Scandinavian ancestry.

Joey D
28-12-16, 01:43
Yes. Years ago, a sample was taken from the Mormon community in Utah, and was often used as a surrogate for "European" ancestry. It's actually a good surrogate for northwestern European ancestry, as the Mormons are basically of British Isles descent, along with some more minor German and Scandinavian ancestry.

But the original population can be what, 200 years old?

Angela
28-12-16, 02:20
But the original population can be what, 200 years old?

That's right. It's a modern sample. It's included in the 1000 genomes set.

Ed.
I'll walk that back a bit. Mormonism came into being in the mid 19th century, but the "colonial" Americans who converted to it had been in the New World from the late 1600s to the mid 1700s.

Then, in the mid-to-late 19th century the Mormons went on missions to the British Isles and Scandinavia and made converts there. That's a more minor element from what I remember.

Since then, the ones in Utah have been isolated in terms of intermarriage.

Joey D
28-12-16, 09:57
It just seems odd to me that we would bother labelling a community maybe a few hundred years old, when clearly, they have all come from the British Isles and Northern Europe.

I know there's always a temporal question involved with these sorts of tests, whether you go back to pre-history or medieval times, etc, but 2 or 3 centuries when there is a very obvious backstory which predates that period doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.

Azzurro
07-01-17, 00:38
My Results

#PopulationPercent
1 Caucasian29.78
2 Mediterranean28.81
3 NE-Euro18.17
4 SW-Asian14.68
5 Baloch7.08
6 W-African1.13

Using 1 population approximation:
1 ashkenazi @ 6.947908
2 ashkenazy-jew @ 7.312261
3 tuscan @ 9.810319
4 tuscan @ 10.379184
5 tuscan @ 10.957203
6 morocco-jew @ 11.819502
7 sephardic-jew @ 12.251520
8 italian @ 18.351109
9 turk-aydin @ 20.673489
10 bulgarian @ 20.816389


Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% morocco-jew +50% tuscan @ 3.031924


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% italian +25% morocco-jew +25% syrian @ 1.758904


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 french + sephardic-jew + sephardic-jew + sephardic-jew @ 1.490275
2 ashkenazy-jew + samaritian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.740170
3 italian + italian + morocco-jew + syrian @ 1.758904
4 ashkenazy-jew + samaritian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.766780
5 french + morocco-jew + sephardic-jew + sephardic-jew @ 1.769253
6 ashkenazy-jew + samaritian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.790575
7 italian + italian + lebanese + morocco-jew @ 1.799032
8 ashkenazy-jew + samaritian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.808096
9 french + morocco-jew + samaritian + tuscan @ 1.857893
10 ashkenazy-jew + samaritian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.892028

Angela
07-01-17, 03:35
^^
Wow, this calculator gives you very poor fits. (Plus, I've never seen a Tuscan reference population show up anywhere near Ashkenazim, much less in between Ashkenazim and Moroccan Jews. Very odd. )

Do other Europeans get such bad "fit" numbers and such an inconsistent gradient of populations ?

Is this calculator better for Near Easterners and Indians than for Europeans?

New Englander
07-01-17, 05:04
Edit, this was a double post. Not sure how it happened.

New Englander
07-01-17, 05:06
Why is it strange? He is about half way between Jews and Tuscan, although a bit closer to Jews. He is closer to Tuscan than Moroccan Jews though. All this means is that he has a bit higher SW Asian, and a bit lower Caucasian than other Italians, but thats just regional.

Pax Augusta
07-01-17, 05:13
^^
Wow, this calculator gives you very poor fits. (Plus, I've never seen a Tuscan reference population show up anywhere near Ashkenazim, much less in between Ashkenazim and Moroccan Jews. Very odd. )

Because of the lack of samples. I mean, not all the populations are covered. His first population ashkenazi is @ 6.947908. So not a best fit.

Tuscan is @ 9.810319, @ 10.379184, @ 10.957203, they are all considerable distances.

In fact using 2 populations approximation, in the same results he is modelled as 50% morocco-jew +50% tuscan @ 3.031924.

While using 3 populations approximation, he is modelled as 50% italian +25% morocco-jew +25% syrian @ 1.758904 (Italian in this calculator is North Italian from Bergamo HGDP).



Do other Europeans get such bad "fit" numbers and such an inconsistent gradient of populations ?

Is this calculator better for Near Easterners and Indians than for Europeans?

Likely, it was made by Zack Ajmal.

LeBrok
07-01-17, 05:58
Because of the lack of samples. I mean, not all the populations are covered. His first population ashkenazi is @ 6.947908. So not a best fit.

Tuscan is @ 9.810319, @ 10.379184, @ 10.957203, they are all considerable distances.

In fact using 2 populations approximation, in the same results he is modelled as 50% morocco-jew +50% tuscan @ 3.031924.

While using 3 populations approximation, he is modelled as 50% italian +25% morocco-jew +25% syrian @ 1.758904 (Italian in this calculator is North Italian from Bergamo HGDP).




Likely, it was made by Zack Ajmal.Good observation. He's best fit is obviously missing.

Azzurro
07-01-17, 06:33
Thanks for your feedbacks everyone!

@Angela, yes it is off, I believe you are right that it is more catered to Near Easterners, Gedrosia gives me similar results. For me personally I think MDLP is the best calculator, they have K11 and K16 coming out soon should be interesting.

@NewEnglander, my results are always a little bit skewed because my direct paternal line is Jewish-Convert (Neofiti), I am rare for Southern Italians and Sicilians in the sense that I have actual IBD matches with Jews.

@Pax Augusta, I agree with you 100% on this one, too little reference populations and samples used without Southern Italian or Sicilian used it is impossible to give me the best fit.

@Lebrok, like I told Pax, not having Southern Italian or Sicilian is tough to give an accurate prediction.

Northener
07-01-17, 07:28
Found few genomes to compare. Unfortunately I don't have European populations yet except mine. Nobody cares doing it for Europe I guess.






Polish


Joey D


Ashkenazy


Palestinian



Population


Population


Population


Population



S-Indian
1

S-Indian


S-Indian
1

S-Indian
1


Baloch
7

Baloch
9

Baloch
7

Baloch
7


Caucasian
10

Caucasian
38

Caucasian
34

Caucasian
39


NE-Euro
57

NE-Euro
15

NE-Euro
16

NE-Euro
1


SE-Asian
1

SE-Asian


SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0


Siberian
1

Siberian


Siberian
1

Siberian
0


NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian


NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
0


Papuan
-

Papuan
1

Papuan
0

Papuan
0


American
-

American


American
0

American
0


Beringian
0

Beringian


Beringian
0

Beringian
0


Mediterranean
22

Mediterranean
25

Mediterranean
24

Mediterranean
12


SW-Asian
1

SW-Asian
11

SW-Asian
15

SW-Asian
31


San
-

San


San
0

San
0


E-African
-

E-African
1

E-African
1

E-African
5


Pygmy
-

Pygmy


Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0


W-African
-

W-African
1

W-African
0

W-African
0

















And a NW European Result (mine):

# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 55.26
2 Mediterranean 28.6
3 Baloch 8.79
4 Caucasian 6.09
5 Papuan 0.77
6 S-Indian 0.49

Ok it are just four figures, but it looks like if in Northern Europe, the HG component is about 55%. To the west the Caucasian component drops down. In my case even below Baloch! Why does the Baloch component pops up higher than the Caucasian? And wat is very remarkable that my Med. is percentages higher than that of Joey (Sicily) or the Ashkenazim! Any explanations? Guesses?

New Englander
07-01-17, 18:50
^ I would say you are either Basque or Corsican?

But your clearly not, so maybe Western Europe is classed "Med" in this calculator. I would need to look at the spread sheet. I think it peaks in North Italians and Sardinia.

Meaning R1b Celts = Med

Angela
07-01-17, 19:27
If someone wants to know how much "hunter-gatherer" they have, they should be using a calculator where the reference samples are something like Loschbour and Karelia. (Actually, all our ancestors were once hunter-gatherers, including the ones we inherited from "farmers". It's just that some of them invented agriculture.)

You certainly can't use clusters modal in modern populations today.​ North east Europeans, for example, already have some "farmer", as well as "Caucasian" from their Yamnaya ancestry.

LeBrok
07-01-17, 20:10
This is all I have so far. Please, whoever posts, with intention to be used in our European stats, make sure your parents and grand parents came from the same region or a country.





Polish


Sicilian


Netherlands



LeBrok


Joey D


Northerner



Population


Population


Population



S-Indian
1

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
7

Baloch
9

Baloch
9


Caucasian
10

Caucasian
38

Caucasian
6


NE-Euro
57

NE-Euro
15

NE-Euro
55


SE-Asian
1

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
1

Siberian
-

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
1

Papuan
1


American
-

American
-

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
22

Mediterranean
25

Mediterranean
29


SW-Asian
1

SW-Asian
11

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
1

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
-

W-African
1

W-African
-

LeBrok
07-01-17, 20:23
Europeans
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0


Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0


Sicily
Joey D
0
9
38
15
0
0
0
1
0
0
25
11
0
1
0
1


Albania
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0




More volunteers please. :) Men and women, kids and grandparents. Just remember to state region or a country of birth of your parents.

LeBrok
07-01-17, 21:14
And a NW European Result (mine):

# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 55.26
2 Mediterranean 28.6
3 Baloch 8.79
4 Caucasian 6.09
5 Papuan 0.77
6 S-Indian 0.49

Ok it are just four figures, but it looks like if in Northern Europe, the HG component is about 55%. To the west the Caucasian component drops down. In my case even below Baloch! Why does the Baloch component pops up higher than the Caucasian? And wat is very remarkable that my Med. is percentages higher than that of Joey (Sicily) or the Ashkenazim! Any explanations? Guesses?

Baloch is from EHG and Iranian Farmers/CHG mix, both came from East with Indo Europeans/Corded Ware/Celts and Greeks.
Main source of Caucasian was EEF in Europe. IE brought some too, but they rather diluted what was already there than added.
Mediterranean was present in WHG, especially the ones closer to the Med Sea, later some more came with EEF farmers. The highest level so far was in Neolithic Spain up to 60%. Your increased Med might point to some relationship with Spain and area. Netherlands in general or you personal. With more contemporary European samples we should know better soon.

Northener
07-01-17, 21:52
Baloch is from EHG and Iranian Farmers/CHG mix, both came from East with Indo Europeans/Corded Ware/Celts and Greeks.
Main source of Caucasian was EEF in Europe. IE brought some too, but they rather diluted what was already there than added.
Mediterranean was present in WHG, especially the ones closer to the Med Sea, later some more came with EEF farmers. The highest level so far was in Neolithic Spain up to 60%. Your increased Med might point to some relationship with Spain and area. Netherlands in general or you personal. With more contemporary European samples we should know better soon.

Thank you for your information!!!Gives more insight. I've aDNA which is according to DNA land 97% Northern European. According to my genealogical information all Northern Dutch and a bunch of NW Germans. 2% is Mediterranen Island. That's my Y-DNA E-V22 (I suppose). White ravens in NW Europe. The best guess is that's from a raid in Friesland (1586) of the Spanish army. This consisted of soldiers recruited from places in Southern Europe whit some more E-V22 namely 5% in stead of the average Southern 1%, these are Andalusia, Asturias, Sicily, Naples. But this is a small line from 12 generations ago. But left most probably his mark on my Y-DNA! (But may be there is another cause, still a mystery). But this has not that much impact on my aDNA tot explain a substantial higher Med.. So probably the Mediterranen EEF is in the Netherlands somewhat higher than in Eastern Europe? But also Sicily....that looks weird.

Pax Augusta
07-01-17, 21:59
More volunteers please. :) Men and women, kids and grandparents. Just remember to state region or a country of birth of your parents.

If it's ok with you I can post two or three results of Italians who have 4 grandparents from same region.

Sile
07-01-17, 22:23
All from North-East Italy .............including parents , grandparents and great grandparents

my father

#


Population
Percent


1
NE-Euro
33.55


2
Mediterranean
32.2


3
Caucasian
19.5


4
Baloch
6.87


5
SW-Asian
6.2


6
S-Indian
0.82


7
SE-Asian
0.54


8
Pygmy
0.32



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
italian (hgdp)
6.88


2
romanian-a (behar)
10.45


3
tuscan (hapmap)
11.67


4
tuscan (hgdp)
12


5
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
12.11


6
tuscan (1000genomes)
12.43


7
french (hgdp)
13.18


8
spaniard (behar)
13.73


9
spaniard (1000genomes)
14.86


10
hungarian (behar)
16.76


11
slovenian (xing)
18.73


12
utahn-white (1000genomes)
20.94



.................................................. .....................................

myself

#


Population
Percent


1
Mediterranean
32.49


2
NE-Euro
32.28


3
Caucasian
20.13


4
Baloch
8.21


5
SW-Asian
5.89


6
S-Indian
0.85


7
W-African
0.15



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
italian (hgdp)
6.28


2
tuscan (hapmap)
10.65


3
romanian-a (behar)
10.83


4
tuscan (hgdp)
11


5
tuscan (1000genomes)
11.47


6
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
12.37


7
spaniard (behar)
13.8


8
french (hgdp)
14.03


9
spaniard (1000genomes)
14.94


10
hungarian (behar)
17.96


11
slovenian (xing)
19.97





.................................................. ........

one of my sons

#


Population
Percent


1
NE-Euro
35.62


2
Mediterranean
31.79


3
Caucasian
19.42


4
Baloch
8.18


5
SW-Asian
4.34


6
NE-Asian
0.38


7
Papuan
0.17


8
W-African
0.11



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
italian (hgdp)
8.7


2
romanian-a (behar)
10.06


3
french (hgdp)
11.69


4
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
11.93


5
tuscan (hapmap)
13.5


6
tuscan (hgdp)
13.81


7
tuscan (1000genomes)
14.26


8
spaniard (behar)
14.32


9
hungarian (behar)
14.76


10
spaniard (1000genomes)
15.62


11
slovenian (xing)
16.82


12
utahn-white (1000genomes)
19





.................................................. ..........

my wife

#


Population
Percent


1
NE-Euro
35.15


2
Mediterranean
32.16


3
Caucasian
20.17


4
Baloch
7.11


5
SW-Asian
4.17


6
NE-Asian
0.58


7
Papuan
0.46


8
W-African
0.16


9
Siberian
0.06



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
italian (hgdp)
7.8


2
romanian-a (behar)
9.92


3
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
11.6


4
french (hgdp)
12.35


5
tuscan (hapmap)
12.67


6
tuscan (hgdp)
12.99


7
tuscan (1000genomes)
13.45


8
spaniard (behar)
14.26


9
hungarian (behar)
15.43


10
spaniard (1000genomes)
15.54


11
slovenian (xing)
17.44


12
utahn-white (1000genomes)
19.84

Pax Augusta
07-01-17, 22:38
All from North-East Italy .............including parents , grandparents and great grandparents

my father

#


Population
Percent


1
NE-Euro
33.55


2
Mediterranean
32.2


3
Caucasian
19.5


4
Baloch
6.87


5
SW-Asian
6.2


6
S-Indian
0.82


7
SE-Asian
0.54


8
Pygmy
0.32



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
italian (hgdp)
6.88


2
romanian-a (behar)
10.45


3
tuscan (hapmap)
11.67


4
tuscan (hgdp)
12


5
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
12.11


6
tuscan (1000genomes)
12.43


7
french (hgdp)
13.18


8
spaniard (behar)
13.73


9
spaniard (1000genomes)
14.86


10
hungarian (behar)
16.76


11
slovenian (xing)
18.73


12
utahn-white (1000genomes)
20.94



.................................................. .....................................

myself

#


Population
Percent


1
Mediterranean
32.49


2
NE-Euro
32.28


3
Caucasian
20.13


4
Baloch
8.21


5
SW-Asian
5.89


6
S-Indian
0.85


7
W-African
0.15



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
italian (hgdp)
6.28


2
tuscan (hapmap)
10.65


3
romanian-a (behar)
10.83


4
tuscan (hgdp)
11


5
tuscan (1000genomes)
11.47


6
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
12.37


7
spaniard (behar)
13.8


8
french (hgdp)
14.03


9
spaniard (1000genomes)
14.94


10
hungarian (behar)
17.96


11
slovenian (xing)
19.97





.................................................. ........

one of my sons

#


Population
Percent


1
NE-Euro
35.62


2
Mediterranean
31.79


3
Caucasian
19.42


4
Baloch
8.18


5
SW-Asian
4.34


6
NE-Asian
0.38


7
Papuan
0.17


8
W-African
0.11



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
italian (hgdp)
8.7


2
romanian-a (behar)
10.06


3
french (hgdp)
11.69


4
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
11.93


5
tuscan (hapmap)
13.5


6
tuscan (hgdp)
13.81


7
tuscan (1000genomes)
14.26


8
spaniard (behar)
14.32


9
hungarian (behar)
14.76


10
spaniard (1000genomes)
15.62


11
slovenian (xing)
16.82


12
utahn-white (1000genomes)
19





.................................................. ..........

my wife

#


Population
Percent


1
NE-Euro
35.15


2
Mediterranean
32.16


3
Caucasian
20.17


4
Baloch
7.11


5
SW-Asian
4.17


6
NE-Asian
0.58


7
Papuan
0.46


8
W-African
0.16


9
Siberian
0.06



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
italian (hgdp)
7.8


2
romanian-a (behar)
9.92


3
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
11.6


4
french (hgdp)
12.35


5
tuscan (hapmap)
12.67


6
tuscan (hgdp)
12.99


7
tuscan (1000genomes)
13.45


8
spaniard (behar)
14.26


9
hungarian (behar)
15.43


10
spaniard (1000genomes)
15.54


11
slovenian (xing)
17.44


12
utahn-white (1000genomes)
19.84



North-East Italy is now covered. :)

LeBrok
07-01-17, 23:11
If it's ok with you I can post two or three results of Italians who have 4 grandparents from same region. Of course, indicate regions too.



Europeans
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0


Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0


Sicily
Joey D
0
9
38
15
0
0
0
1
0
0
25
11
0
1
0
1


Albania
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0


Italy, NE
Multiple
1
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
5
0
0
0
0

Northener
08-01-17, 00:13
Baloch is from EHG and Iranian Farmers/CHG mix, both came from East with Indo Europeans/Corded Ware/Celts and Greeks.
Main source of Caucasian was EEF in Europe. IE brought some too, but they rather diluted what was already there than added.
Mediterranean was present in WHG, especially the ones closer to the Med Sea, later some more came with EEF farmers. The highest level so far was in Neolithic Spain up to 60%. Your increased Med might point to some relationship with Spain and area. Netherlands in general or you personal. With more contemporary European samples we should know better soon.

LeBrok compared with others it looks like typical N(W)European:
Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 55.26
2 Mediterranean 28.60
3 Baloch 8.79
4 Caucasian 6.09




Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.


--------------------------------


Least-squares method.


Using 1 population approximation:
1 n-european @ 3.403369
2 utahn-white @ 4.032901
3 utahn-white @ 6.361325
4 british @ 7.447022
5 orcadian @ 7.508000
6 slovenian @ 11.829170
7 hungarian @ 11.970489
8 ukranian @ 13.656387
9 french @ 15.719910
10 belorussian @ 16.431705
11 mordovian @ 18.768982
12 russian @ 19.622629
13 russian @ 20.481249
14 lithuanian @ 21.314024
15 serbian @ 23.040863
16 romanian-a @ 28.488033
17 chuvash @ 28.780073
18 spaniard @ 28.987589
19 spaniard @ 29.979937
20 bulgarian @ 30.920256


Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% n-european +50% n-european @ 3.403369

Hauteville
08-01-17, 10:39
Sicilian results

1

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasian
34.05


2
Mediterranean
25.06


3
NE-Euro
17.84


4
SW-Asian
12.38


5
Baloch
8.57


6
E-African
1.49


7
SE-Asian
0.46


8
Siberian
0.07


9
Papuan
0.05


10
W-African
0.03



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
ashkenazi (harappa)
3.86


2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
3.88


3
sephardic-jew (behar)
10.07


4
tuscan (1000genomes)
10.99


5
tuscan (hgdp)
11.62


6
morocco-jew (behar)
11.73


7
tuscan (hapmap)
12.31


8
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
14.44


9
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
18.54


10
cypriot (behar)
18.77


11
romanian-a (behar)
19.68


12
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
19.82


13
italian (hgdp)
19.95


14
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
20.17


15
turk (behar)
21.57


16
lebanese (behar)
21.66


17
turkish (harappa)
22.4


18
lebanese-muslim (haber)
23.96


19
armenian (harappa)
24


20
syrian (behar)
24.1




2

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasian
32


2
Mediterranean
28.04


3
NE-Euro
18.25


4
SW-Asian
11.54


5
Baloch
8.31


6
S-Indian
0.76


7
Papuan
0.43


8
E-African
0.38


9
San
0.29



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
ashkenazi (harappa)
5.48


2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
6.08


3
tuscan (1000genomes)
8.16


4
tuscan (hgdp)
8.73


5
tuscan (hapmap)
9.34


6
sephardic-jew (behar)
11.47


7
morocco-jew (behar)
12.26


8
italian (hgdp)
16.95


9
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
17.05


10
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
17.98


11
romanian-a (behar)
18.86


12
cypriot (behar)
21.39


13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
22.72


14
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
23.1


15
lebanese (behar)
24.49


16
turk (behar)
24.52


17
romanian-b (behar)
24.66


18
turkish (harappa)
25.14


19
armenian (harappa)
26.78


20
lebanese-muslim (haber)
26.92




3

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasian
30.11


2
Mediterranean
28


3
NE-Euro
18.32


4
SW-Asian
12.7


5
Baloch
8.87


6
E-African
1.23


7
W-African
0.61


8
Beringian
0.16


9
SE-Asian
0.01



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
ashkenazi (harappa)
6.28


2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
6.65


3
tuscan (1000genomes)
8.57


4
tuscan (hgdp)
9.08


5
tuscan (hapmap)
9.64


6
sephardic-jew (behar)
11.73


7
morocco-jew (behar)
11.85


8
italian (hgdp)
16.66


9
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
17.8


10
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
18.18


11
romanian-a (behar)
18.85


12
cypriot (behar)
22.43


13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
23.68


14
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
24


15
lebanese (behar)
24.53


16
romanian-b (behar)
25.06


17
turk (behar)
25.46


18
turkish (harappa)
25.79


19
syrian (behar)
26.91


20
palestinian (harappa)
26.97




4

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasian
27.85


2
Mediterranean
27.21


3
NE-Euro
19.67


4
SW-Asian
12.49


5
Baloch
9.03


6
E-African
1.11


7
Papuan
0.56


8
W-African
0.54


9
NE-Asian
0.51


10
Pygmy
0.34


11
Beringian
0.34


12
Siberian
0.31


13
San
0.06



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
ashkenazi (harappa)
7.2


2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
8.2


3
tuscan (1000genomes)
8.3


4
tuscan (hgdp)
8.73


5
tuscan (hapmap)
9.27


6
morocco-jew (behar)
13.48


7
sephardic-jew (behar)
13.63


8
italian (hgdp)
15.58


9
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
16.8


10
romanian-a (behar)
17.22


11
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
18.2


12
cypriot (behar)
24.38


13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
24.61


14
romanian-b (behar)
24.65


15
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
25.07


16
spaniard (behar)
25.65


17
lebanese (behar)
25.8


18
spaniard (1000genomes)
26.26


19
turk (behar)
26.5


20
turkish (harappa)
26.66

Hauteville
08-01-17, 10:46
Mainland Southern Italians results

Puglia

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasian
35.34


2
Mediterranean
28.16


3
NE-Euro
15.91


4
SW-Asian
11.53


5
Baloch
7.1


6
Papuan
0.71


7
American
0.62


8
Pygmy
0.34


9
W-African
0.16


10
Siberian
0.11



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
5.19


2
ashkenazi (harappa)
5.92


3
sephardic-jew (behar)
9.32


4
tuscan (1000genomes)
10.58


5
morocco-jew (behar)
11.02


6
tuscan (hgdp)
11.15


7
tuscan (hapmap)
11.76


8
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
16.32


9
cypriot (behar)
18.3


10
italian (hgdp)
19.68


11
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
20.48


12
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
21.24


13
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
21.38


14
romanian-a (behar)
21.68


15
lebanese (behar)
22.72


16
turk (behar)
22.82


17
turkish (harappa)
23.82


18
lebanese-muslim (haber)
24.81


19
armenian (harappa)
24.98


20
syrian (behar)
25.48



Basilicata

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasian
30.34


2
Mediterranean
26.46


3
NE-Euro
19.21


4
SW-Asian
13.57


5
Baloch
9.02


6
E-African
0.66


7
SE-Asian
0.2


8
W-African
0.19


9
San
0.16


10
Papuan
0.13


11
American
0.07



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
ashkenazi (harappa)
5.27


2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
6.03


3
tuscan (1000genomes)
9.32


4
tuscan (hgdp)
9.88


5
tuscan (hapmap)
10.5


6
sephardic-jew (behar)
11.73


7
morocco-jew (behar)
12.15


8
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
16.99


9
italian (hgdp)
17.41


10
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
17.49


11
romanian-a (behar)
18.21


12
cypriot (behar)
22.06


13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
22.93


14
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
23.29


15
lebanese (behar)
23.87


16
romanian-b (behar)
24.65


17
turk (behar)
24.74


18
turkish (harappa)
25.07


19
syrian (behar)
26.08


20
palestinian (harappa)
26.21



3 Campania

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasian
36.26


2
Mediterranean
24.24


3
SW-Asian
14.72


4
NE-Euro
13.51


5
Baloch
9.92


6
E-African
0.7


7
S-Indian
0.39


8
Pygmy
0.2


9
Papuan
0.06



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
4.06


2
sephardic-jew (behar)
6.19


3
ashkenazi (harappa)
7.2


4
morocco-jew (behar)
8.9


5
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
13.64


6
cypriot (behar)
14.56


7
tuscan (1000genomes)
15.53


8
tuscan (hgdp)
16.13


9
tuscan (hapmap)
16.76


10
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
17.25


11
lebanese (behar)
17.31


12
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
17.49


13
turk (behar)
18.83


14
turkish (harappa)
19.23


15
lebanese-muslim (haber)
19.68


16
syrian (behar)
19.9


17
armenian (harappa)
20.04


18
palestinian (harappa)
20.06


19
jordanian (behar)
21.11


20
iraqi-arab (harappa)
21.55



4 Campania bis

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasian
31.29


2
Mediterranean
28.33


3
NE-Euro
18.65


4
SW-Asian
12.66


5
Baloch
7


6
S-Indian
0.93


7
SE-Asian
0.55


8
Papuan
0.32


9
E-African
0.18


10
San
0.11



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
ashkenazi (harappa)
5.1


2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
6.05


3
tuscan (1000genomes)
7.88


4
tuscan (hgdp)
8.49


5
tuscan (hapmap)
9.09


6
sephardic-jew (behar)
11.41


7
morocco-jew (behar)
11.89


8
italian (hgdp)
16.49


9
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
17.86


10
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
17.97


11
romanian-a (behar)
18.7


12
cypriot (behar)
21.9


13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
23.84


14
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
24.16


15
lebanese (behar)
24.8


16
romanian-b (behar)
25.04


17
turk (behar)
25.6


18
turkish (harappa)
26.23


19
syrian (behar)
27.22


20
spaniard (behar)
27.31





5 Puglia

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasian
29.25


2
Mediterranean
27.99


3
NE-Euro
18.4


4
SW-Asian
13.06


5
Baloch
8.82


6
Siberian
0.64


7
American
0.63


8
S-Indian
0.53


9
Papuan
0.3


10
W-African
0.29


11
E-African
0.07



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
ashkenazi (harappa)
6.56


2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
7


3
tuscan (1000genomes)
8.61


4
tuscan (hgdp)
9.08


5
tuscan (hapmap)
9.63


6
sephardic-jew (behar)
12.04


7
morocco-jew (behar)
12.04


8
italian (hgdp)
16.41


9
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
17.97


10
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
18.13


11
romanian-a (behar)
18.69


12
cypriot (behar)
22.97


13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
24.09


14
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
24.38


15
romanian-b (behar)
24.65


16
lebanese (behar)
24.88


17
turk (behar)
25.86


18
turkish (harappa)
26.07


19
spaniard (behar)
26.61


20
syrian (behar)
27.16

Northener
08-01-17, 13:57
Your increased Med might point to some relationship with Spain and area. Netherlands in general or you personal. With more contemporary European samples we should know better soon.
Most probably is the Med. component the EEF component in Northwestern Europe. Coming from the Med. Northwestern Europe is by sea more logical than the Balticum and even more inwards Eastern Europe....
http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-swedish-farmer-came-from-the-mediterranean-1.10541

Northener
08-01-17, 19:55
^ I would say you are either Basque or Corsican?

But your clearly not, so maybe Western Europe is classed "Med" in this calculator. I would need to look at the spread sheet. I think it peaks in North Italians and Sardinia.

Meaning R1b Celts = Med

Thanks New Englander but I don't think so, all other tools like eurogenes etc point me in Northwest Europe (see above Happa places me also in the North), North-sea territory, no connections with the Celts. You can make a spread for the 22 chromosomes and Med is in all those chromosomes, these are chromosomes of people from North-Dutch descent, as you can see only one drops below 10, no single connection with Basque or Corsica:



26.1

28.9

34.7

28.1

28.1

32.9

26.9

27.1

31.0

31.5

21.0

39.7





9.2

34.0

28.2

25.7

20.8

18.8

27.9

27.0

19.3

28.1


Or Celtic area's. I sincerely think this is the EEF component in NW Europe....

Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Northener
08-01-17, 21:05
And look @ at a previous posting of Le Brok:






CA Iberia, ATP2, M849224
BA Iberian, ATP9, M116706


CO1 Hungary


BR1 Hungary


Unetice I0116, M425717


Population


Population


Population


Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
-

Bloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
3.15

Baloch
12.21


Caucasian
4.19

Caucasian
7.33

Caucasian
19.26

Caucasian
14.73

Caucasian
2.27


NE-Euro
24.19

NE-Euro
36.77

NE-Euro
16.74

NE-Euro
46.18

NE-Euro
58.33


SE-Asian
0.23

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.2

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.23

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
0.18

Papuan
-


American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

American
0.88


Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
63.33

Mediterranean
55.74

Mediterranean
55.37

Mediterranean
31.73

Mediterranean
26.25


SW-Asian
5.14

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
8.52

SW-Asian
3.33

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.07


W-African
2.69

W-African
0.15

W-African
0.1

W-African
0.48

W-African
-





# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 55.26
2 Mediterranean 28.6
3 Baloch 8.79
4 Caucasian 6.09
5 Papuan 0.77
6 S-Indian 0.49

Compared with those results it fits more or less with the Unetice results, the Unetice culture influenced the Nordic Bronze Age heavily (Eureka!? ;)

LeBrok
08-01-17, 21:52
And look @ at a previous posting of Le Brok:



# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 55.26
2 Mediterranean 28.6
3 Baloch 8.79
4 Caucasian 6.09
5 Papuan 0.77
6 S-Indian 0.49

Compared with those results it fits more or less with the Unetice results, the Unetice culture influenced the Nordic Bronze Age heavily (Eureka!? ;)
Yep, not bad at all. You just have a tiny bit more EEF in you, which gives more Med and Caucasian and less NE Euro (EHG).

LeBrok
08-01-17, 21:53
Thanks guys for posting your admixtures. Here is what we have.



Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0


Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0


Albania
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0


Italy, NE
3
1
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
5
0
0
0
0


Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0


Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0


Ashkenazy
?
1
7
39
16
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
15
0
1
0
0

LeBrok
08-01-17, 21:56
Here are the details of Italians that I have. Interestingly a huge diversification in Sicilians.



Italy, NE
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


1
Sile's father
0.82
6.87
19.50
33.50
0.54





32.20
6.20


0.32



2
Sile
0.85
8.21
20.13
32.28






32.49
5.89



0.15


3
Sile's wife

7.11
20.17
35.15

0.06
0.58
0.46


32.16
4.17



0.16






















Italy, NE
3
1
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
5
0
0
0
0







Sicily
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


1
Joey D

8.96
37.71
15.28



0.77


24.56
10.94

0.50

0.76


2
Hauteville 1

8.57
34.05
17.84
0.46
0.07

0.05


25.06
12.38

1.49

0.03


3
Hauteville 2
0.76
8.31
32.00
18.25



0.43


28.04
11.54
0.29
0.38




4
Hauteville 3

8.87
30.11
18.32
0.01




0.16
28.00
12.70

1.23

0.61


5
Hauteville 4

9.03
27.85
19.67

0.31
0.51
0.56


27.21
12.49
0.06
1.11
0.34
0.54






















Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0






Italy, South
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


1
Puglia

7.10
35.34
15.91

0.11

0.71
0.62

28.16
11.53

1.00
0.34
0.16


2
Puglia 2
0.53
8.82
29.25
18.40

0.64

0.30
0.63

27.99
13.06

0.07

0.29


3
Basilicata

9.02
30.34
19.21
0.20


0.13
0.07

26.46
13.57
0.16
0.66

0.19


4
Campania
0.39
9.92
36.26
13.51



0.06


24.24
14.72

0.70
0.20



5
Compaina 2
0.93
7.00
31.29
18.65
0.55


0.32


28.33
12.66
0.11
0.18
























Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0

Northener
08-01-17, 23:23
Yep, not bad at all. You just have a tiny bit more EEF in you, which gives more Med and Caucasian and less NE Euro (EHG).

Given the place of Northern Netherlands, more westwards, at the North-Sea so open for influences from the Atlantic/ Med sea sounds plausible.

Isn't in the NE Euro not also WHG or SHG included????

The link with Unetice result was a nice eye opener thanks!

LeBrok
08-01-17, 23:41
Give the place of Northern Netherlands, more westwards, at the North-Sea so open for influences from the Atlantic/ Med sea sounds plausible.

Isn't in the NE Euro not also WHG or SHG included????

The link with Unetice result was a nice eye opener thanks!


Samara HG


Loschbour


Motala 12


K01, hungary


Villabruna 14KYa


Population


Population


Population


Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
14.33

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-


Caucasian
-

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
-


NE-Euro
75.62

NE-Euro
77.83

NE-Euro
90.24

NE-Euro
82.06

NE-Euro
74.57


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.44

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.65


Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
0.07

Siberian
-

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
0.84

Papuan
0.57

Papuan
0.2

Papuan
0.31


American
9.62

American
-

American
1.58

American
-

American
-


Beringian
0.15

Beringian
-

Beringian
0.68

Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
20.66

Mediterranean
6.83

Mediterranean
17.44

Mediterranean
23.43


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.07


W-African
0.20

W-African
0.17

W-African
-

W-African
0.26

W-African
0.95



To bad we don't have Karelia EHG in Gedmatch. Seams like Motala SHG is almost the source of NE Euro.

Sile
09-01-17, 06:48
Here are the details of Italians that I have. Interestingly a huge diversification in Sicilians.



Italy, NE
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


1
Sile's father
0.82
6.87
19.50
33.50
0.54





32.20
6.20


0.32



2
Sile
0.85
8.21
20.13
32.28






32.49
5.89



0.15


3
Sile's wife

7.11
20.17
35.15

0.06
0.58
0.46


32.16
4.17



0.16






















Italy, NE
3
1
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
5
0
0
0
0






Sicily
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


1
Joey D

8.96
37.71
15.28



0.77


24.56
10.94

0.50

0.76


2
Hauteville 1

8.57
34.05
17.84
0.46
0.07

0.05


25.06
12.38

1.49

0.03


3
Hauteville 2
0.76
8.31
32.00
18.25



0.43


28.04
11.54
0.29
0.38




4
Hauteville 3

8.87
30.11
18.32
0.01




0.16
28.00
12.70

1.23

0.61


5
Hauteville 4

9.03
27.85
19.67

0.31
0.51
0.56


27.21
12.49
0.06
1.11
0.34
0.54






















Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0






Italy, South
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


1
Puglia

7.10
35.34
15.91

0.11

0.71
0.62

28.16
11.53

1.00
0.34
0.16


2
Puglia 2
0.53
8.82
29.25
18.40

0.64

0.30
0.63

27.99
13.06

0.07

0.29


3
Basilicata

9.02
30.34
19.21
0.20


0.13
0.07

26.46
13.57
0.16
0.66

0.19


4
Campania
0.39
9.92
36.26
13.51



0.06


24.24
14.72

0.70
0.20



5
Compaina 2
0.93
7.00
31.29
18.65
0.55


0.32


28.33
12.66
0.11
0.18
























Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0




you left my son out ( one of )

LeBrok
09-01-17, 07:38
you left my son out ( one of )We have you and your wife. Your son contains your both genetics, so we already have his DNA.

Northener
09-01-17, 19:19
Brainwave. Aren't we in danger to be in the act of constant relabeling? EEF, HG and Steppe in different blends? What is brand new in or about Happa....Just some considerations!

Sile
09-01-17, 19:59
Brainwave. Aren't we in danger to be in the act of constant relabeling? EEF, HG and Steppe in different blends? What is brand new in or about Happa....Just some considerations!

Harappa is an old 2013 program , concentrating on more middle-east than the other programs .............you should see a lot of jewish in the results as well


like, my uncle via my maternal side ...........whose origins are friulian/istrian/slovenian areas

#


Population
Percent


1
NE-Euro
42.57


2
Mediterranean
30.05


3
Caucasian
15.15


4
Baloch
6.42


5
SW-Asian
4.18


6
Siberian
0.81


7
S-Indian
0.53


8
SE-Asian
0.25


9
San
0.04



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
hungarian (behar)
8.14


2
french (hgdp)
8.3


3
slovenian (xing)
10.19


4
n-european (xing)
12.52


5
utahn-white (1000genomes)
12.69


6
romanian-a (behar)
12.79


7
utahn-white (hapmap)
13.65


8
british (1000genomes)
14.46


9
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
15.03


10
italian (hgdp)
15.37





1

83.40%
hungarian (behar)
+
16.60%
sardinian (hgdp)
@
1.28


4

80.10%
slovenian (xing)
+
19.90%
sardinian (hgdp)
@
1.79


16

75.80%
n-european (xing)
+
24.20%
sephardic-jew (behar)
@
2.88


13

72.30%
n-european (xing)
+
27.70%
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
@
2.73


9

70.10%
n-european (xing)
+
29.90%
ashkenazi (harappa)
@
2.46


15

69.90%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+
30.10%
ashkenazi (harappa)
@
2.85


5

69.60%
hungarian (behar)
+
30.40%
spaniard (1000genomes)
@
2.22


7

68.20%
ukranian (yunusbayev)
+
31.80%
sardinian (hgdp)
@
2.44


2

67.30%
italian (hgdp)
+
32.70%
lithuanian (behar)
@
1.65


8

66.20%
hungarian (behar)
+
33.80%
italian (hgdp)
@
2.46


20

64.80%
italian (hgdp)
+
35.20%
russian (hgdp)
@
3.01


10

64.40%
slovenian (xing)
+
35.60%
spaniard (1000genomes)
@
2.54


3

63.20%
n-european (xing)
+
36.80%
tuscan (1000genomes)
@
1.74


6

62.70%
slovenian (xing)
+
37.30%
spaniard (behar)
@
2.37


11

61.60%
italian (hgdp)
+
38.40%
belorussian (behar)
@
2.58


12

61.30%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
38.70%
tuscan (1000genomes)
@
2.66


14

60.70%
slovenian (xing)
+
39.30%
italian (hgdp)
@
2.85


18

55.40%
italian (hgdp)
+
44.60%
ukranian (yunusbayev)
@
2.97


19

53.20%
romanian-a (behar)
+
46.80%
british (1000genomes)
@
2.98


17

51%
british (1000genomes)
+
49%
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
@
2.9

LeBrok
09-01-17, 20:37
I found populations averages, and some of them are the source of admixtures for this calculator.


Ethnicity
Dataset

S Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE Euro
SE Asian
Siberian
NE Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW Asian
San
E African
Pygmy
W African


paniya
chaubey
3
84%
0%
3%
0%
4%
2%
2%
4%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


brahui
hgdp
25
12%
58%
12%
2%
1%
0%
0%
1%
0%
0%
2%
10%
0%
1%
0%
1%


georgian
behar
20
0%
17%
72%
6%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
1%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%


finnish
1000genomes
100
1%
1%
2%
80%
0%
6%
0%
0%
0%
1%
5%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%


iban
xing
25
5%
0%
0%
0%
87%
4%
0%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


nganassan
rasmussen
12
0%
1%
1%
3%
0%
89%
1%
0%
0%
4%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


japanese
1000genomes
7
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
1%
99%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


papuan
hgdp
17
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
100%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


colombian
hgdp
7
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
100%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


chukchi
rasmussen
15
0%
0%
1%
5%
0%
12%
0%
0%
1%
80%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


sardinian
hgdp
28
0%
0%
20%
12%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
60%
7%
0%
0%
0%
0%


saudi
behar
20
1%
5%
26%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
3%
58%
0%
3%
0%
1%


san
hgdp
6
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
100%
0%
0%
0%


gumuz
pagani
18
0%
0%
0%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
2%
1%
93%
3%
0%


mbutipygmy
hgdp
13
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
100%
0%


yoruba
1000genomes
5
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
100%



And a full list:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l87nGSIYTP-h7m-VKjB-BZcuEoWdz765nU4f_krOdd4/edit#gid=0

LeBrok
11-01-17, 04:49
Harappa is an old 2013 program , concentrating on more middle-east than the other programs .............you should see a lot of jewish in the results as well


like, my uncle via my maternal side ...........whose origins are friulian/istrian/slovenian areas

#


Population
Percent


1
NE-Euro
42.57


2
Mediterranean
30.05


3
Caucasian
15.15


4
Baloch
6.42


5
SW-Asian
4.18


6
Siberian
0.81


7
S-Indian
0.53


8
SE-Asian
0.25


9
San
0.04



Yes, he has 10% more NE Euro than average NE Italian. Must be the Slovenian side of his ancestry.

LeBrok
11-01-17, 04:50
We have almost complete set of Italians, except Sardinians.



Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0


Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0


Albania
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0


Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0


Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0


Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0


Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0


Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0


Ashkenazy
?
1
7
39
16
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
15
0
1
0
0




The most interesting thing here, if it comes to Italians, is that Baloch is rising the farther South we go. From 6 in North to 9 in Sicily. There were two sources of Baloch in the past, one was Indo European/ Steppe invasion, second one South Caucasus populations, like Iranian Farmer, CHG, and by Bronze Age infiltrated to Anatolia/Syria area. If the heightened Baloch in South Italy came from Steppe, then we would also see heightened NE Euro, but we don't. NE Euro drops by half but Baloch goes up by 50%. Steppe can be responsible for 2-3% of Baloch in South by not for 9%. It means that someone else brought additional 5-6% of Baloch. Source population needed to have substantial Baloch and Caucasian, and also some SW Asian and Med, and very low NE Euro. Unfortunately we don't have enough ancient samples in GedMatch to find close match for them, but I'm guessing this area will be around Bronze Age Central/East Anatolia and Syria.
Well, Bronze Age migration of Trojans and alike from Anatolia might be revisited. ;) Or possibly, Bronze Age migration and trade by Sea was much bigger than we expected and centered on Near East. The Minoans and their cousins to the East?

Sile
11-01-17, 06:58
Yes, he has 10% more NE Euro than average NE Italian. Must be the Slovenian side of his ancestry.

My Grandmothers line going back to ~450AD was from western istria ............that is what my second cousin told me ...........they then moved along the coast to venice and are part of the 24 first families that settled in the Venice lagoon area

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/old%20ven_zpsc6tobkba.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/old%20ven_zpsc6tobkba.jpg.html)

Basegio .......now written as Baseggio

Sile
11-01-17, 07:02
We have almost complete set of Italians, except Sardinians.



Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0


Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0


Albania
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0


Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0


Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0


Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0


Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0


Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0


Ashkenazy
?
1
7
39
16
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
15
0
1
0
0




The most interesting thing here, if it comes to Italians, is that Baloch is rising the farther South we go. From 6 in North to 9 in Sicily. There were two sources of Baloch in the past, one was Indo European/ Steppe invasion, second one South Caucasus populations, like Iranian Farmer, CHG, and by Bronze Age infiltrated to Anatolia/Syria area. If the heightened Baloch in South Italy came from Steppe, then we would also see heightened NE Euro, but we don't. NE Euro drops by half but Baloch goes up by 50%. Steppe can be responsible for 2-3% of Baloch in South by not for 9%. It means that someone else brought additional 5-6% of Baloch. Source population needed to have substantial Baloch and Caucasian, and also some SW Asian and Med, and very low NE Euro. Unfortunately we don't have enough ancient samples in GedMatch to find close match for them, but I'm guessing this area will be around Bronze Age Central/East Anatolia and Syria.
Well, Bronze Age migration of Trojans and alike from Anatolia might be revisited. ;) Or possibly, Bronze Age migration and trade by Sea was much bigger than we expected and centered on Near East. The Minoans and their cousins to the East?

The only difference between NW and NE is the Med part...........Genoa area is more open to the Med than the Venice enclosed adriatic sea

Fire Haired14
11-01-17, 07:26
Unfortunately we don't have enough ancient samples in GedMatch to find close match for them, but I'm guessing this area will be around Bronze Age Central/East Anatolia and Syria.
Well, Bronze Age migration of Trojans and alike from Anatolia might be revisited. ;) Or possibly, Bronze Age migration and trade by Sea was much bigger than we expected and centered on Near East. The Minoans and their cousins to the East?

My guess is it came from North of the Levant because our Iron age(This one is from Roman Britain) and Bronze age Levant genomes have less Iran Neo/CHG than modern Levanties(including the non European side of Ashkenazi Jews). My guess is a more Iran Neo/CHG source is needed for Southern Europe. BTw, a Neolithic Iranian had J2b*, J2b2 is consider Balkan and J2b1 Indian.

LeBrok
11-01-17, 18:36
My guess is it came from North of the Levant because our Iron age(This one is from Roman Britain) and Bronze age Levant genomes have less Iran Neo/CHG than modern Levanties(including the non European side of Ashkenazi Jews). My guess is a more Iran Neo/CHG source is needed for Southern Europe. BTw, a Neolithic Iranian had J2b*, J2b2 is consider Balkan and J2b1 Indian.Generally yes, but it can't be Iron Age movement. If it were, ancient Greeks would have noticed and written about this.

LeBrok
11-01-17, 18:44
Now I added Sardinians and Turks from Istanbul. Sardinians look like true EEF with a bit of Steppe in them. One surprise is that they don't carry any Baloch. Sardinia didn't go through Bronze age changes rest of Italy did.
Istanbul's Med is low, which is very surprising for part of Turkey by Mediteranean sea, SW low too. Very high Caucasian and Baloch points to very strong genetic push from Armenia/Georgia region into whole Anatolia, some time ago. This could have pushed previous occupants of Anatolia into Balkans/ Italy, possibly by means of the sea?



Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African



Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0



Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0



Albania
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0



Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0



Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0



Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0



Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0



Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0



Sardinia
2
0
0
23
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
48
11
0
0
0
0



Ashkenazy
?
1
7
39
16
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
15
0
1
0
0



turk-istanbul
?
1
16
45
11
1
3
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0

LeBrok
11-01-17, 19:59
This is Boreas' run.



Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Boreas
3
11
29
22

6
3



19
7






turk
1%
16%
47%
9%
0%
4%
2%
0%
1%
1%
10%
10%
0%
0%
0%
0%


turk-aydin
1%
12%
38%
14%
0%
6%
4%
0%
0%
1%
14%
9%
0%
0%
0%
0%


turk-istanbul
1%
16%
45%
11%
1%
3%
3%
0%
0%
1%
11%
9%
0%
0%
0%
0%


turk-kayseri
1%
15%
45%
8%
1%
4%
2%
0%
0%
1%
11%
10%
0%
0%
0%
0%


turkish
2%
17%
40%
9%
1%
4%
2%
1%
1%
1%
11%
11%
1%
1%
0%
0%


turkmen
5%
26%
30%
10%
1%
7%
8%
0%
1%
1%
4%
7%
0%
0%
0%
0%



To me it looks like almost half of it comes from South Europe giving strong Euro and Med. Other almost half is local Anatolia/Caucasus, giving strong Caucasian. And about 10% of Turkic DNA, Siberian and NE Asian.
Interesting that your Siberian and NE Asian are in similar proportions to each other as Tuvinian/Tuvan Turks of Central Asia, though in 10 times smaller amount.

Sile
11-01-17, 20:07
This is Boreas' run.



Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Boreas
2.78
11.05
29.17
21.96

5.56
2.78



18.64
6.72







To me it looks like almost half of it comes from South Europe giving strong Euro and Med. Other almost half is local Anatolia/Caucasus, giving strong Caucasian. And about 10% of Turkic DNA, Siberian and NE Asian.
Interesting that your Siberian and NE Asian are in similar proportions to each other as Tuvinian/Tuvan Turks of Central Asia, though in 10 times smaller amount.

He looks like a pre-turk , ie a Anatolian before the turks moved in around 1100AD

Pax Augusta
11-01-17, 20:24
He looks like a pre-turk , ie a Anatolian before the turks moved in around 1100AD

He has 5.56 Siberian though. Likely some Balkan/Slav admixture as well I think.

LeBrok
12-01-17, 00:48
Added Greeks from mainland, islands and Cyprus. Though I'm not sure if from Cyprus are greeks or turks, so I named them Cyprus only.


Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0


Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0


Albania
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0


Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0


Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0


Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0


Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0


Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0


Sardinia
2
0
0
23
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
48
11
0
0
0
0


Greek, mainland
3
0
6
32
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
11
0
0
0
0


Greek, Islands, East
5
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0


Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0


Ashkenazy
?
1
7
39
16
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
15
0
1
0
0


turk-istanbul
?
1
16
45
11
1
3
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0

New Englander
12-01-17, 18:10
So the average South Italian has about 1 point higher SW Asian than Sicilians, and 1 point lower NE Euro and Balouch? I would have thought the opposite.

Also, both groups have a large range on the Caucasian component, usually the higher meaning a bit less Mediterranean and SW Asian. So is SW Asian associated with Mediterranean more so than Caucasian? Less Caucasian also means more NE European it seems.

Pax Augusta
12-01-17, 19:13
So the average South Italian has about 1 point higher SW Asian than Sicilians, and 1 point lower NE Euro and Balouch? I would have thought the opposite.

There is a huge diversification in both Sicilians and South Italians. They can both range from Italian_Abruzzo to Southern_Italian (based on Calabria). I wouldn't focus too much on the difference of one point, but I would look more to the general trend.



Also, both groups have a large range on the Caucasian component, usually the higher meaning a bit less Mediterranean and SW Asian. So is SW Asian associated with Mediterranean more so than Caucasian? Less Caucasian also means more NE European it seems.

I don't know if less Caucasian means more NE European. For example Bulgarians and Romanians can have both relatively high Caucasian and NE European.

LeBrok
12-01-17, 19:34
So the average South Italian has about 1 point higher SW Asian than Sicilians, and 1 point lower NE Euro and Balouch? I would have thought the opposite. I thought so too, that the farther south you go the more EEF Neolithic Farmer population you find. It means higher Med, SW and Caucasian. Especially Med grew with time in European Farmers, while SW and Caucasian declined. Med was the highest in Europe by Copper Age.


Also, both groups have a large range on the Caucasian component, usually the higher meaning a bit less Mediterranean and SW Asian. This means population change. I think about immigration of about 25% of new population. Bronze Age Anatolia/North Syria/Armenia would fit the bill for source of Caucasian and Baloch.


So is SW Asian associated with Mediterranean more so than Caucasian? Less Caucasian also means more NE European it seems. IE invasion from North would definitely increased NE Euro and lower Caucasian. Increased SW Asian is harder to explain. Perhaps these Bronze Age Anatolians were rich in SW Asian. All Anatolian samples that I've seen have low SW component. Or it came separately later via phoenicians and other Near Eastern traders or conquerors like Arabs.
Actually, a good proxy for these Bronze Age migrants is Cyprus. They have all the right components.

New Englander
12-01-17, 19:47
"I don't know if less Caucasian means more NE European. For example Bulgarians and Romanians can have both relatively high Caucasian and NE European."

Well Im speaking for South Italians and Sicilians specifically.

LeBrok
12-01-17, 19:53
I don't know if less Caucasian means more NE European. For example Bulgarians and Romanians can have both relatively high Caucasian and NE European.Good observation. Bulgarians are very close to the source of both, and they started with pretty high level of both in Neolithic. This are samples from Hungarians, not too far away.



NE7 Hungary


CO1 Hungary



Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
-

Baloch
-


Caucasian
19.04

Caucasian
19.26


NE-Euro
16.69

NE-Euro
16.74


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
-

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
56.18

Mediterranean
55.37


SW-Asian
7.96

SW-Asian
8.52


San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.11

W-African
0.1



Anyway, to get to Bulgarian admixture levels we will need two migrations, in size of quarter to half population change. One from Anatolia/Armenia with very high Caucasian. And one from Steppe with very high NE Euro. Bronze Age Hungarian already shows situation after Steppe migration.



BR1 Hungary



Population



S-Indian
-


Baloch
3.15


Caucasian
14.73


NE-Euro
46.18


SE-Asian
0.2


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.18


American
-


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
31.73


SW-Asian
3.33


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.48



Now if we get migration from Anatolia, even modern Anatolia, it will increase Caucasian dramatically and add to Baloch and SW Asian, and will also lower Med.

New Englander
12-01-17, 19:54
Why did the Caucasian components get spread around Europe, while the SW Asian did not, if they are both EEF related? I notice that Turks and Kurds do not have as much SW Asian than Italians as well. Was the SW Asian a direct result of Roman slave trade? While the Caucasian mixture was from much earlier via Bronze age and Indo European?

And as far as Baloch is concerned, its seems to be around 8% everywhere for the most part.

Sile
12-01-17, 20:04
"I don't know if less Caucasian means more NE European. For example Bulgarians and Romanians can have both relatively high Caucasian and NE European."

Well Im speaking for South Italians and Sicilians specifically.

Should we even investigate a 1 point difference ! ...............to me they are the same , if there is a 2 point or more difference, then that is another matter

Sile
12-01-17, 20:09
Why did the Caucasian components get spread around Europe, while the SW Asian did not, if they are both EEF related? I notice that Turks and Kurds do not have as much SW Asian than Italians as well. Was the SW Asian a direct result of Roman slave trade? While the Caucasian mixture was from much earlier via Bronze age and Indo European?

And as far as Baloch is concerned, its seems to be around 8% everywhere for the most part.

Because humans left Africa for south-asia under Haplogroup F

F (https://www.yfull.com/tree/F/)

F1 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/F1/)
F3 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/F3/)
F-Y27277 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/F-Y27277/)

F2 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/F2/)


GHIJK (https://www.yfull.com/tree/GHIJK/)



when haplogroup F split into haplogroup GHIJK the split occurred north of the Zargos mountains...........north of the Alpide belt ( not alpine )

so migration, the bulk , into SW-Asian occurred from north to south

LeBrok
12-01-17, 20:37
Why did the Caucasian components get spread around Europe, while the SW Asian did not, if they are both EEF related? These are the original levels when EEF left Anatolia. Next two are EEF from Europe. Caucasian drops due to mixing with WHG, who don't have it. They have Med at 20% so it doesn't affect much level of Med in EEF. Later we even see Med increasing by Copper Age for some reason. We don't know why? Perhaps this is a component which developed here with time, mutations and adaptation?


Anatolian EF



Population



S-Indian
-


Baloch
-


Caucasian
37.64


NE-Euro
0.86


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-


American
-


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
47.24


SW-Asian
14.00


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.27





Stuttgart


NE1 Hungary



Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
-

Baloch
-


Caucasian
30.60

Caucasian
28.27


NE-Euro
7.82

NE-Euro
12.13


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
-

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
49.46

Mediterranean
45.75


SW-Asian
12.01

SW-Asian
13.45


San
0.11

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.05


W-African
-

W-African
0.35









I notice that Turks and Kurds do not have as much SW Asian than Italians as well. Was the SW Asian a direct result of Roman slave trade? SW picks in Natufian Farmer but it didn't penetrate to Anatolia much. Later it drops when population from Caucasus moves in by Bronze Age.

While the Caucasian mixture was from much earlier via Bronze age and Indo European?IE/Steppe have very low Caucasian. Caucasian mostly came with Anatolian Farmer, later EEF, and much later in BA with someone we don't know yet. Check post #1 for more info.


And as far as Baloch is concerned, its seems to be around 8% everywhere for the most part. Yes. EEF didn't have it at all. Some came with Steppe, some with BA and later migrations from Anatolia/Near East.

LeBrok
12-01-17, 20:40
Should we even investigate a 1 point difference ! ...............to me they are the same , if there is a 2 point or more difference, then that is another matter We mostly ignore 1%, but in this case we see a steady trend of 1% up with every group going south. It is one directional and steady trend, not a random up and down. We've found a pattern. That's why it means something.
Now we have fun figuring out what it means.

Angela
12-01-17, 21:09
There is a problem with using an admixture calculator's modern "clusters" to trace ancient movements, other than in the broadest and most general sense. Northeast Euro contains Med. Caucasian includes other layers. These are just geographic descriptions of the alleles presently modal in those areas. It's not the same as seeing what percentage of a modern group can be attributed to Satsurblia, or LBK, or even MN etc.

Also, you can't use modern Turks (and their percentages of these modern "clusters") as a proxy population for any group that would have moved into southern Europe from the east. There have continued to be large population movements across the whole Near East since the Bronze Age. Modern Anatolians, for example, have from 6-12% Siberian/East Asian etc. from the movement of Turkic populations into Anatolia only within the last 1000 years. That would necessarily have lowered their percentages of other components. That's only one example.

Specifically, to the best of my recollection, some of the modelers at anthrogenica looking closely at the Near Eastern Copper Age and Bronze Age samples found that after the Neolithic there was a movement of a more heavily SW Asian "like" population north and east across the region. This may be closer to the population that moved into southern Europe. I'll see if I can find it. Unfortunately, I didn't save a copy of the analysis.

If any of our members did keep a copy, it would be helpful if you could post it.

Oh, there wasn't one Neolithic wave and then nothing else until the Bronze Age. There seem to have been a few waves of migrations. One pre-pottery Neolithic, one pottery Neolithic. One perhaps closer to the Copper Age. One of the later waves might have brought the J2 and pre-E-V13 found in Sopot and Lengyel?

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Pax Augusta
12-01-17, 21:16
Why did the Caucasian components get spread around Europe, while the SW Asian did not, if they are both EEF related? Was the SW Asian a direct result of Roman slave trade? While the Caucasian mixture was from much earlier via Bronze age and Indo European?

Roman slave trade? Just saying, but SW Asian is also found in Finnish, Germans, French, Spaniards, Romanians, Austrians, Hungarians, Slovenians, Croats, Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbians, Albanians, Sardinians. I am listing the ones that come to mind only.

A SW Asian component is spread in Europe at least since the Chalcolithic.


I notice that Turks and Kurds do not have as much SW Asian than Italians as well.

Not true, Kurds have 14% on average, so more than most Italians. Turkish, who are pretty varied, range from 7 to 13% with the latter closer to their average.




Well Im speaking for South Italians and Sicilians specifically.

So what you said could only go well for the Italian cline. But everything needs to be set within the context of a broader perspective in my opinion.

Angela
12-01-17, 21:18
There is a problem with using an admixture calculator's modern "clusters" to trace ancient movements, other than in the broadest and most general sense. Northeast Euro contains Med. Caucasian includes other layers. These are just geographic descriptions of the alleles presently modal in those areas. It's not the same as seeing what percentage of a modern group can be attributed to Satsurblia, or LBK, or even MN etc.

Also, you can't use modern Turks (and their percentages of these modern "clusters") as a proxy population for any group that would have moved into southern Europe from the east. There have continued to be large population movements across the whole Near East since the Bronze Age. Modern Anatolians, for example, have from 6-12% Siberian/East Asian etc. from the movement of Turkic populations into Anatolia only within the last 1000 years. That would necessarily have lowered their percentages of other components. That's only one example.

Specifically, to the best of my recollection, some of the modelers at anthrogenica looking closely at the Near Eastern Copper Age and Bronze Age samples found that after the Neolithic there was a movement of a more heavily SW Asian "like" population north and east across the region. This may be closer to the population that moved into southern Europe. I'll see if I can find it. Unfortunately, I didn't save a copy of the analysis.

If any of our members did keep a copy, it would be helpful if you could post it.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Boreas
12-01-17, 21:59
This is Boreas' run.



Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Boreas
3
11
29
22

6
3



19
7






turk
1%
16%
47%
9%
0%
4%
2%
0%
1%
1%
10%
10%
0%
0%
0%
0%


turk-aydin
1%
12%
38%
14%
0%
6%
4%
0%
0%
1%
14%
9%
0%
0%
0%
0%


turk-istanbul
1%
16%
45%
11%
1%
3%
3%
0%
0%
1%
11%
9%
0%
0%
0%
0%


turk-kayseri
1%
15%
45%
8%
1%
4%
2%
0%
0%
1%
11%
10%
0%
0%
0%
0%


turkish
2%
17%
40%
9%
1%
4%
2%
1%
1%
1%
11%
11%
1%
1%
0%
0%


turkmen
5%
26%
30%
10%
1%
7%
8%
0%
1%
1%
4%
7%
0%
0%
0%
0%



To me it looks like almost half of it comes from South Europe giving strong Euro and Med. Other almost half is local Anatolia/Caucasus, giving strong Caucasian. And about 10% of Turkic DNA, Siberian and NE Asian.
Interesting that your Siberian and NE Asian are in similar proportions to each other as Tuvinian/Tuvan Turks of Central Asia, though in 10 times smaller amount.

Let me give up all results and also my bro's

Mine:


S-Indian
2.78


Baloch
11.05


Caucasian
29.17


NE-Euro
21.96


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
5.56


NE-Asian
2.78


Papuan
0.38


American
0.05


Beringian
0.47


Mediterranean
18.64


SW-Asian
6.72


San
0.14


E-African
-


Pygmy
0.29


W-African
-



My Bro:


Population



S-Indian
2.19


Baloch
10.07


Caucasian
28.16


NE-Euro
20.57


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
4.12


NE-Asian
4.50


Papuan
0.68


American
0.06


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
21.83


SW-Asian
7.40


San
0.16


E-African
-


Pygmy
0.25


W-African
-



Less Anatolian, more Balkan and Med, I guess I am not like average Turk

LeBrok
12-01-17, 23:51
There is a problem with using an admixture calculator's modern "clusters" to trace ancient movements, other than in the broadest and most general sense. Northeast Euro contains Med. Caucasian includes other layers. These are just geographic descriptions of the alleles presently modal in those areas. It's not the same as seeing what percentage of a modern group can be attributed to Satsurblia, or LBK, or even MN etc.It is good enough to play with it for fun. Comparison samples to their contemporaries is rather precise, but much less through time with new mutations and drifting complicates things.


Also, you can't use modern Turks (and their percentages of these modern "clusters") as a proxy population for any group that would have moved into southern Europe from the east. There have continued to be large population movements across the whole Near East since the Bronze Age. Modern Anatolians, for example, have from 6-12% Siberian/East Asian etc. from the movement of Turkic populations into Anatolia only within the last 1000 years. That would necessarily have lowered their percentages of other components. That's only one example.Aside of Siberian admixture, modern Turk was just example who we need to look up in the past for the source. Someone alike but 4 ky older without Syberian and NE Asian. Whoever it was in Bronze Age, I'm guessing, modern Turks have huge genetic continuity with them.


Specifically, to the best of my recollection, some of the modelers at anthrogenica looking closely at the Near Eastern Copper Age and Bronze Age samples found that after the Neolithic there was a movement of a more heavily SW Asian "like" population north and east across the region. This may be closer to the population that moved into southern Europe. I'll see if I can find it. Unfortunately, I didn't save a copy of the analysis. I'm sure there were movements of populations in Neolithic Europe, but by looking at admixtures, the movements were of local "stock" only. No new admixtures popping up, or dramatic changes, or rise of Near Eastern admixtures like Caucasian, SW Asian and Baloch indicating migration from Near East or Anatolia. Till Bronze Age when we see huge jump of Steppe admixtures. If there were bigger movements, Hungarian area was insulated, or cultural achievements and changes were introduced only by small traveling artisan groups, small bands, nothing dramatic.



Stuttgart


NE1 Hungary


NE7 Hungary


CO1 Hungary


BR1 Hungary



Population


Population


Population


Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
3.15


Caucasian
30.60

Caucasian
28.27

Caucasian
19.04

Caucasian
19.26

Caucasian
14.73


NE-Euro
7.82

NE-Euro
12.13

NE-Euro
16.69

NE-Euro
16.74

NE-Euro
46.18


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.2


Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
0.18


American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
49.46

Mediterranean
45.75

Mediterranean
56.18

Mediterranean
55.37

Mediterranean
31.73


SW-Asian
12.01

SW-Asian
13.45

SW-Asian
7.96

SW-Asian
8.52

SW-Asian
3.33


San
0.11

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.05

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
-

W-African
0.35

W-African
0.11

W-African
0.1

W-African
0.48

Angela
13-01-17, 00:43
It is good enough to play with it for fun. Comparison samples to their contemporaries is rather precise, but much less through time with new mutations and drifting complicates things.

Aside of Siberian admixture, modern Turk was just example who we need to look up in the past for the source. Someone alike but 4 ky older without Syberian and NE Asian. Whoever it was in Bronze Age, I'm guessing, modern Turks have huge genetic continuity with them.

I'm sure there were movements of populations in Neolithic Europe, but by looking at admixtures, the movements were of local "stock" only. No new admixtures popping up, or dramatic changes, or rise of Near Eastern admixtures like Caucasian, SW Asian and Baloch indicating migration from Near East or Anatolia. Till Bronze Age when we see huge jump of Steppe admixtures. If there were bigger movements, Hungarian area was insulated, or cultural achievements and changes were introduced only by small traveling artisan groups, small bands, nothing dramatic.



Stuttgart


NE1 Hungary


NE7 Hungary


CO1 Hungary


BR1 Hungary



Population


Population


Population


Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
3.15


Caucasian
30.60

Caucasian
28.27

Caucasian
19.04

Caucasian
19.26

Caucasian
14.73


NE-Euro
7.82

NE-Euro
12.13

NE-Euro
16.69

NE-Euro
16.74

NE-Euro
46.18


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.2


Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
0.18


American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
49.46

Mediterranean
45.75

Mediterranean
56.18

Mediterranean
55.37

Mediterranean
31.73


SW-Asian
12.01

SW-Asian
13.45

SW-Asian
7.96

SW-Asian
8.52

SW-Asian
3.33


San
0.11

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.05

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
-

W-African
0.35

W-African
0.11

W-African
0.1

W-African
0.48




I know that you understand that these numbers can't be precise in terms of ancient movements, but other people reading these posts may not. (Comparisons between modern populations are a different story, of course.)

I agree that any movement from the east in the Bronze Age would have had more "Caucasian" than the Anatolian farmers. What we don't know, because of the internal migrations within the Near East and from the Arabian peninsula into the Near East, is how much more "Caucasian", how much "SW Asian", how much "Mediterranean"? I agree that modern Turks have a lot of ancestry from the Bronze Age; I just think our best proxies are and will be ancient samples from the Near East.*

As for movements into Europe up to and including the Copper Age, we know there were different waves from archaeology. I agree that they were roughly similar people, but your own data in this post does indeed show differences in the percentages of components like SWAsian, Caucasus etc. and I think some of that may come from slight variations in the composition of the different Neolithic waves.

Ed. * Given how much variation there is in Turkey even today, I think it's quite likely that variation existed in the Bronze Age as well.

A. Papadimitriou
13-01-17, 00:47
Why did the Caucasian components get spread around Europe, while the SW Asian did not, if they are both EEF related? I notice that Turks and Kurds do not have as much SW Asian than Italians as well. Was the SW Asian a direct result of Roman slave trade? While the Caucasian mixture was from much earlier via Bronze age and Indo European?

And as far as Baloch is concerned, its seems to be around 8% everywhere for the most part.
If you are willing to do that, Germanic admixture can be attributed to slave trade as well.

New Englander
13-01-17, 00:53
@Pax Augusta (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/48867-Pax-Augusta) , Not on this run, but Iv seen plenty of GED spread sheets that show Sicilians and South Italians with more SW Asian than Turks and Kurds. it might mean different things on different calculators though, so Im not sure if it would be relevant to Harppa world.

Angela
13-01-17, 01:12
If you are willing to do that, Germanic admixture can be attributed to slave trade as well.

What of all the Gauls (one-third of their entire population), Britons, Spaniards, Greeks, Thracians, Dacians, and on and on. It's always amazed me that certain people think the Romans enslaved only Syrians. Or, that all the slaves taken were sold in Italia; many, perhaps, but not all. Aren't all these ancient dna samples from Britain, for example, who are genetically Levantine or Arabian, or Egyptian, or African proof of that? Nor were all the slaves sold in Italia sold in Sicily and the south. It doesn't really make sense to me. Where is the indication that only slaves from Syria were sent to Italy, and moreover, that they were all sent to the south?



It doesn't matter what we say, however. The same people will continue to claim the same things.

I don't want to be mis-understood, however; some slaves in Italy undoubtedly passed on their dna. It's just more complicated that these kind of people are willing to admit.

New Englander
13-01-17, 02:30
^ Why cant it be than slaves from Northern and Eastern Europe were more likely to end up in the Italian North, while slaves from the middle east were more common in the South specifically. This could be due to simple geography, you import the slaves that are closet to you, not from farther away. Not saying all slaves ended up in Italy, or in one place to that matter. Nor am I saying only Syrians were enslaved. Im saying maybe the slaves brought in were related to a geographical restriction.

But it this way. Most Italians live in Jew Jersey and New York. That does not mean I cannot find them in Wyoming, just that they are less able to make a genetic contribution.

Angela
13-01-17, 02:54
^ Why cant it be than slaves from Northern and Eastern Europe were more likely to end up in the Italian North, while slaves from the middle east were more common in the South specifically. This could be due to simple geography, you import the slaves that are closet to you, not from farther away. Not saying all slaves ended up in Italy, or in one place to that matter. Nor am I saying only Syrians were enslaved. Im saying maybe the slaves brought in were related to a geographical restriction.

But it this way. Most Italians live in Jew Jersey and New York. That does not mean I cannot find them in Wyoming, just that they are less able to make a genetic contribution.

Where is your proof that this happened? Was there some huge slave market in, say, Sicily, where all slaves from the east were sent?

By contrast, we have a lot of information, including carvings on major triumphal arches in Rome, as well as actual writings, that slaves taken in battle were brought to Rome and marched in the triumphal processions for the conquering general. You can go to the Arch of Titus and look at the depictions of all the Judean slaves. Or you can go and see the depictions of the Dacians, the Gauls, and on and on.

A certain number were executed, but the rest were sold by the general to slave traders. It's said that Caesar sold so many Gaulish slaves that there was a glut on the Roman market and they brought half the normal going rate. The slave traders then transported them to wherever in the Roman world there was a need for certain types of slaves: strong men for the mines, the galleys, or latifundia in various parts of the Roman world, pretty girls for the brothels. None of the preceding was likely to survive long enough to be manumitted and have offspring. People with specialized skills would be disposed of accordingly.

People were also sold into slavery, or sold themselves into slavery, including poor farmers in Italia, or captured by pirates, etc. Every town had a slave market and slave dealers. This was a business. They would send the slaves where they could get the best price, where they were needed. Or, if they had been captured in war, they in fact sent them as far away as feasible. Supposedly, many of my own Celt-Liguri were settled in Samnite country. You can see that distance didn't really pose a problem for the Romans. North Africans incorporated into the Roman military machine were sent to the Wall in Britain and stayed there for a long time. By your reasoning they should have been sent to Iberia. Balkan troops were also stationed there.

The immigrants who came to America in the late 19th/early 20th century didn't wind up along the eastern seaboard because it was closer to Europe. They wound up there because middle men hired by factory owners etc. had gone to small towns in Italy and persuaded people to sign up to go to America to work in the factories in the industrial belt in the east, or on the railroads, or, they themselves had heard about these jobs. Scandinavians made the much further trip out to the midwest because cheap land had been advertised to them. The Irish worked on the railroads for the same reason. There's an economic motive for most things if you know anything about history.

Your proposal is sheer speculation unsupported by any shred of data, and, indeed, contradicted by the data we do have. You can continue to pull it out of your hat for eternity, and I'm sure you will. It won't make it any more credible.

Nor, by the way, does this explain why there are similar percentages of Caucasian in Greece and southern Italy, and, in fact, southern Italians have less Caucasian, Mediterranean, and SW Asian than Greek Islanders. Were all the eastern slaves dumped there? The islands would have sunk under the weight. Nor was there that kind of need there.

Of course, should something come to light that proves differently, that's fine. What difference does it make? I just like my history as objectively interpreted as possible, not agenda driven.

Now, I'm tired of talking about it. I can't believe I got drawn into this dance once again.

Pax Augusta
13-01-17, 03:17
^ Why cant it be than slaves from Northern and Eastern Europe were more likely to end up in the Italian North, while slaves from the middle east were more common in the South specifically. This could be due to simple geography, you import the slaves that are closet to you, not from farther away.

It's not supported by any historical source, and to be honest it doesn't make any sense. Btw slaves were in the entire Roman Empire and in Italy mostly concentrated in Rome.

More than 200 skeletons found in three Cemeteries from Imperial Rome (non-elite Imperial-era cemeteries) have been examined in two reaserches, 2007 and 2016.

From the 2007 paper abstract:


We hypothesize that migrants most likely came from higher elevations to the East and North of Rome. One individual with a higher δ18O value may have come (as a child) from an area isotopically similar to North Africa.

Source: Isotopic evidence for age-related immigration to imperial Rome

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.20541/abstract


In the 2016 paper 1 out of 189 individuals examined is of supposed North African origin. Others come from the Alps.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31969-2-000-year-old-skeletons-reveal-migration-to-Rome-during-the-imperial-era

A. Papadimitriou
13-01-17, 03:25
^ Why cant it be than slaves from Northern and Eastern Europe were more likely to end up in the Italian North, while slaves from the middle east were more common in the South specifically. This could be due to simple geography, you import the slaves that are closet to you, not from farther away. Not saying all slaves ended up in Italy, or in one place to that matter. Nor am I saying only Syrians were enslaved. Im saying maybe the slaves brought in were related to a geographical restriction.

But it this way. Most Italians live in Jew Jersey and New York. That does not mean I cannot find them in Wyoming, just that they are less able to make a genetic contribution.
Why 'Middle eastern' admixture has to be attributed to slavery, especially when we know that slaves were quite often local and also quite often imported from the north too. And some 'SW Asian' admixture seems to have already existed in Neolithic Hungary, for example. Besides, some of it can be attributed to 'Phoenicians' too. Also Herodotus writes for example.


I said as far back as Perseus, and I took the matter no further than that, because no one is named as the mortal father of Perseus, as Amphitryon is named father of Heracles. So I used correct reasoning when I said that the Greek record is correct as far back as Perseus; farther back than that, if the king's ancestors in each generation, from Danae daughter of Acrisius upward, be reckoned, then the leaders of the Dorians will be shown to be true-born Egyptians.

That may be wrong but I think we should take it into account. There might be prehistorical flows somewhat like that in Italy too.

Fire Haired14
13-01-17, 04:09
So everyone knows the extra CHG/Iran Neo in Europe doesn't only exist in Southern Europe it exists in all of France, some German speaking Central European countries, Moldova/Romania/SW Ukraine, and it's most northern extent might be England. One piece of data one can use to try to deceiver where in West Asia it is from is parental markers(Y DNA, mtDNA). E1b1b and J2 are pretty popular in Southern Europe. This indicates it came from Natufian/Levant Neo+Iran Neo/CHG mixed populations.

Everyone in the Middle East was that way by 4500-3000 BC so that doesn't narrow it down much. Local popular Mid eastern Y DNA haplogroups in Southern Europe; E-V13 and J2b2, indicates this admixture has been there for a while. Like how local Steppe Y DNA haplogroups indicate Steppe admixture has been in Europe for a while.

This doesn't indicate it came mostly from Mid Eastern slaves brought to Europe in Roman times, I can't imagine slaves making impact anyways. Plus, as hard as it is to detect, a higher frequency of Mid Eastern-specific mtDNA is documented in Italy and Greece. If enough is found, with high coverage mtDNA, it'll be good evidence it was a migration not sporadic immigration.

Also btw Italy is one of the few spots in Europe mega Bronze age lineages(R1b, R1a, I2a1b, I1, N1c) don't completely dominate the Y DNA and because of that you do you see a decent amount of Anatolian Neolithic G2a2.

LeBrok
13-01-17, 04:13
Samples from Greece are interesting. It is possible that all Greece was like Cyprus before IE Greeks invasion. We just need to subtract 6 points of NE Euro.
Greek east islands are not too much different, they just have more NE Euro, which dilutes other components. This must be close to state of Greek population before Slavic invasion.
Greek mainland, original occupants of mid Bronze Age + IE Greeks + Slavs.



Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African






















Greek, mainland
3
0
6
32
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
11
0
0
0
0


Greek, Islands, East
5
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0


Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0
























I would guess that IE Greeks invaders were something like Bronze Age Hungarian. Roughly we would need 1 IE invader to 3-4 locals to make Cypriots look like Greek islanders.



BR1 Hungary



Population



S-Indian
-


Baloch
3.15


Caucasian
14.73


NE-Euro
46.18


SE-Asian
0.2


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.18


American
-


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
31.73


SW-Asian
3.33


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.48

Angela
13-01-17, 05:58
Samples from Greece are interesting. It is possible that all Greece was like Cyprus before IE Greeks invasion. We just need to subtract 6 points of NE Euro.
Greek east islands are not too much different, they just have more NE Euro, which dilutes other components. This must be close to state of Greek population before Slavic invasion.
Greek mainland, original occupants of mid Bronze Age + IE Greeks + Slavs.



Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African






















Greek, mainland
3
0
6
32
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
11
0
0
0
0


Greek, Islands, East
5
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0


Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0
























I would guess that IE Greeks invaders were something like Bronze Age Hungarian. Roughly we would need 1 IE invader to 3-4 locals to make Cypriots look like Greek islanders.



BR1 Hungary



Population



S-Indian
-


Baloch
3.15


Caucasian
14.73


NE-Euro
46.18


SE-Asian
0.2


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.18


American
-


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
31.73


SW-Asian
3.33


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.48




Good call. I've seen some formal stats for Italians that show the best "mixing" population is indeed Bronze Age Hungarian. (If I mis-remembered that, Fire-Haired can correct it.)

Fwiw, Copper Age Otzi had the same amount of SWAsian as modern Tuscans (about 9-10%, I think). Now, obviously there were genetic changes after that, but it's unlikely, in my opinion, that it was totally wiped out and then totally replaced.

The thing about Egyptians, which, if my memory serves, was often said about Crete, has been proved incorrect by ancient dna.

This is the population that first hit Crete, perhaps a population that originated in southern Anatolia. Ancient dna should tell us more.

Hauteville
13-01-17, 12:05
Samples from Greece are interesting. It is possible that all Greece was like Cyprus before IE Greeks invasion. We just need to subtract 6 points of NE Euro.
Greek east islands are not too much different, they just have more NE Euro, which dilutes other components. This must be close to state of Greek population before Slavic invasion.
Greek mainland, original occupants of mid Bronze Age + IE Greeks + Slavs.



Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African






















Greek, mainland
3
0
6
32
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
11
0
0
0
0


Greek, Islands, East
5
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0


Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0
























I would guess that IE Greeks invaders were something like Bronze Age Hungarian. Roughly we would need 1 IE invader to 3-4 locals to make Cypriots look like Greek islanders.



BR1 Hungary



Population



S-Indian
-


Baloch
3.15


Caucasian
14.73


NE-Euro
46.18


SE-Asian
0.2


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.18


American
-


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
31.73


SW-Asian
3.33


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.48



Greek Islanders as always are the most similar of South Italians and Sicilians, but with some differences: we score 6 point less of Caucasian, 3/4 point more of North East European and 1/2 point less of SW Asian. I really like to see Asia Minor Greeks, Egyptian Greeks and Antiochian Greeks' results, they mostly live in mainland Greece nowadays afaik.
Regarding the slight differences of South Italians and Sicilians on average, it has to do with the samples selected and the calculator, the Italian website Ethnopedia use Eutest and the slight difference is 1 point more of Middle East for Sicilians and one point more of East Med for South Italians on average, and 0.5/0.7 point of more African for Sicilians.

Boreas
13-01-17, 12:06
Joey D

# Population (source) Distance
1 ashkenazy-jew (behar) 5.34
2 ashkenazi (harappa) 6.68
3 sephardic-jew (behar) 9.31
4 morocco-jew (behar) 12.1
5 turk-aydin (hodoglugil) 12.89
6 tuscan (1000genomes) 13.74
7 tuscan (hgdp) 14.33
8 tuscan (hapmap) 14.98
9 cypriot (behar) 15.52
10 turk-istanbul (hodoglugil) 17.03

New Englander

# Population (source) Distance
1 tuscan (1000genomes) 7.36
2 tuscan (hgdp) 7.73
3 tuscan (hapmap) 8.33
4 ashkenazi (harappa) 8.52
5 ashkenazy-jew (behar) 10.95
6 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 12.4
7 romanian-a (behar) 12.79
8 italian (hgdp) 14.03
9 sephardic-jew (behar) 17.35
10 morocco-jew (behar) 17.79

clarbg

# Population (source) Distance
1 utahn-white (1000genomes) 2.93
2 british (1000genomes) 3.78
3 utahn-white (hapmap) 4.8
4 n-european (xing) 5.26
5 orcadian (hgdp) 6.38
6 french (hgdp) 7.77
7 hungarian (behar) 12.33
8 slovenian (xing) 13.54
9 ukranian (yunusbayev) 18.91
10 spaniard (behar) 19.52

Azzurro

1 ashkenazi @ 6.947908
2 ashkenazy-jew @ 7.312261
3 tuscan @ 9.810319
4 tuscan @ 10.379184
5 tuscan @ 10.957203
6 morocco-jew @ 11.819502
7 sephardic-jew @ 12.251520
8 italian @ 18.351109
9 turk-aydin @ 20.673489
10 bulgarian @ 20.816389

Sile


# Population (source) Distance
1 italian (hgdp) 6.28
2 tuscan (hapmap) 10.65
3 romanian-a (behar) 10.83
4 tuscan (hgdp) 11
5 tuscan (1000genomes) 11.47
6 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 12.37
7 spaniard (behar) 13.8
8 french (hgdp) 14.03
9 spaniard (1000genomes) 14.94
10 hungarian (behar) 17.96

Northener

Using 1 population approximation:
1 n-european @ 3.403369
2 utahn-white @ 4.032901
3 utahn-white @ 6.361325
4 british @ 7.447022
5 orcadian @ 7.508000
6 slovenian @ 11.829170
7 hungarian @ 11.970489
8 ukranian @ 13.656387
9 french @ 15.719910
10 belorussian @ 16.431705



This is mine


#
Population (source)
Distance


1
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
11.94


2
ashkenazi (harappa)
12.13


3
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
13.66


4
tuscan (1000genomes)
15.12


5
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
15.2


6
tuscan (hgdp)
15.46


7
romanian-a (behar)
15.65


8
tuscan (hapmap)
15.99


9
nogai (yunusbayev)
18.83


10
sephardic-jew (behar)
19.68







The closest population is close as 2 digits :(

By the way, what is the connection with Italian and Ashkenazy-Jews. They are seeing even in my results. Are they really Ashkenazy or assimilated Sephardi Jews who were assimlated in North America or West Europe Ashkenazy community?

Pax Augusta
13-01-17, 14:41
The closest population is close as 2 digits :(

Indeed, you're very distant from any Turkish sample on Harappa, and Harappa has many Tuskish samples, at least 6.



By the way, what is the connection with Italian and Ashkenazy-Jews. They are seeing even in my results. Are they really Ashkenazy or assimilated Sephardi Jews who were assimlated in North America or West Europe Ashkenazy community?

I think it's more a generic connection that Ashkenazy Jews have with the south-eastern European cluster. Italians range from the southern-western cluster (north-western Italians who tend to be closer to Iberians and southern French) to the southeastern European cluster (with South Italians and Sicilians who tend to be intermediate between Greek mainlanders and Greek Islanders, tendentially closer to the latter but more north-western shifted than them).





Fwiw, Copper Age Otzi had the same amount of SWAsian as modern Tuscans (about 9-10%, I think). Now, obviously there were genetic changes after that, but it's unlikely, in my opinion, that it was totally wiped out and then totally replaced.

Modern Tuscans have slightly less SW Asian, around 7-8%. Is there any Copper Age Otzi GedMatch id?

Hauteville
13-01-17, 16:08
I think it's more a generic connection that Ashkenazy Jews have with the south-eastern European cluster. Italians range from the southern-western cluster (north-western Italians who tend to be closer to Iberians and southern French) to the southeastern European cluster (with South Italians and Sicilians who tend to be intermediate between Greek mainlanders and Greek Islanders, tendentially closer to the latter but more north-western shifted than them).
A very good explanation of Italian genetic.

Angela
13-01-17, 16:22
Sorry, I don't know; I don't really work much with these calculators.

So, the SW Asian would be about 5% for the north, 7-8% for Tuscans, and 11-14% in the south? The southern scores are similar to Greek Islanders?

Well, from what LeBrok posted above the original Anatolian farmers had 14%, then it went down, but was still 10 and higher, yes?How much did Otzi and Remedello have precisely?

Without ancient dna it's impossible, imo, to know exactly what happened. Admixture with Hungarian Bronze Age would have brought it down again, but how many of them actually crossed the Alps? Were they fewer in number by the time they reached the south? What were they like genetically by the time they got here? Then, what effect did a migration from Anatolia/Aegean have? Clearly, the Gaulish migrations in the north had an effect. What about the Greeks of the first millennium B.C.? What were those Greeks like, anyway? Were they more like Islanders or even Cypriots? After all, that was before the Slavic migrations.

It's very frustrating that there is ancient Dna from so many places and virtually nothing from relevant periods in Italy.

Northener
13-01-17, 17:15
Less Caucasian also means more NE European it seems.

I guess North-Dutch isn't NE Europe but NW Europe......

LeBrok
13-01-17, 18:07
Sorry, I don't know; I don't really work much with these calculators.

So, the SW Asian would be about 5% for the north, 7-8% for Tuscans, and 11-14% in the south? The southern scores are similar to Greek Islanders?

Well, from what LeBrok posted above the original Anatolian farmers had 14%, then it went down, but was still 10 and higher, yes?How much did Otzi and Remedello have precisely?
.Unfortunately I'm unable to find kit numbers for these guys in GedMatch, or they are not in calculator.

LeBrok
13-01-17, 18:13
Greek Islanders as always are the most similar of South Italians and Sicilians, but with some differences: we score 6 point less of Caucasian, 3/4 point more of North East European and 1/2 point less of SW Asian. I really like to see Asia Minor Greeks, Egyptian Greeks and Antiochian Greeks' results, they mostly live in mainland Greece nowadays afaik.It would be nice to have samples from different parts of mainland, Sparta, Athens and Thessaloniki. Of course from surrounding villagers and not the cities.

LeBrok
13-01-17, 18:21
Joey D

This is mine


#
Population (source)
Distance


1
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
11.94


2
ashkenazi (harappa)
12.13


3
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
13.66


4
tuscan (1000genomes)
15.12


5
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
15.2


6
tuscan (hgdp)
15.46


7
romanian-a (behar)
15.65


8
tuscan (hapmap)
15.99


9
nogai (yunusbayev)
18.83


10
sephardic-jew (behar)
19.68







The closest population is close as 2 digits :(

By the way, what is the connection with Italian and Ashkenazy-Jews. They are seeing even in my results. Are they really Ashkenazy or assimilated Sephardi Jews who were assimlated in North America or West Europe Ashkenazy community?For a mixed origin guy like you this doesn't work. By means of whole genome or pca distances you will plot close to these guys but you are quite different.



# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Ashkenazy
1
5
34
19
0
0
1
0
0
0
24
14
0
1
0
0


Boreas
3
11
29
22

6
3
0
0
0
19
7
0

0



turk-aydin
1
12
38
14
0
6
4
0
0
1
14
9
0
0
0
0

LeBrok
13-01-17, 19:41
I think it's more a generic connection that Ashkenazy Jews have with the south-eastern European cluster. Italians range from the southern-western cluster (north-western Italians who tend to be closer to Iberians and southern French) to the southeastern European cluster (with South Italians and Sicilians who tend to be intermediate between Greek mainlanders and Greek Islanders, tendentially closer to the latter but more north-western shifted than them).




By the way, what is the connection with Italian and Ashkenazy-Jews. They are seeing even in my results. Are they really Ashkenazy or assimilated Sephardi Jews who were assimlated in North America or West Europe Ashkenazy community?

Greek Islanders are the closest match for Ashkenazi of all populations. Ashkenazi have somewhat more NE Euro, obviously from their history in central Europe, otherwise it is almost a perfect fit. Although, they had spent some time in Southern Europe and picked up similarities, big part of this "perfect" fit is accidental. What I mean is that they didn't "grew up" on Greek islands together to mix so much to be identical. Somehow their history of traveling around Europe and picking up various European genetics made them look like Greek Islanders. As we know Greek Islanders have lots of ancient farmer genetics, share a lot of North Near Eastern genetics, and also North European/Steppe genetics. They both share similar amount of various admixtures coming from same ancient populations, but collected through very different ethnic history, different journey through time.
I think they started as ethnic group looking more like Palestiniens. Once in Europe, they have mixed with locals from South Europe and started to look more like today's Sephardic Jews. And Sephardic genetically look more like Cypriots. This is how proto-Ashkenazi looked 2,000 years ago living in Rome or Greece, I guess.
Later, after picking up North European genes, when living in Germany, Poland or Ukraine they became Ashkenazi as we know them today. As I said, it is an accident that they look like Greek Islanders, especially when looked through rough genetic comparisons of admixtures and pca distances.



# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Greek, Islands, East
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0


Ashkenazy
1
5
34
19
0
0
1
0
0
0
24
14
0
1
0
0


sephardic-jew
1%
7%
36%
9%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
26%
18%
0%
1%
0%
0%


palestinian
1%
7%
39%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
12%
31%
0%
5%
0%
2%

Sile
13-01-17, 19:57
Unfortunately I'm unable to find kit numbers for these guys in GedMatch, or they are not in calculator.

below is the 9000 year old T1 Ydna ancient sample from Jordan who is stated to have origins from NE-Anatolia

HarappaWorld Oracle results:

23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Kit M897077

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Mediterranean
47.24


2
Caucasian
37.64


3
SW-Asian
14


4
NE-Euro
0.86


5
W-African
0.27



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
morocco-jew (behar)
21.8


2
sephardic-jew (behar)
22.91


3
sardinian (hgdp)
23.29


4
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
26.36


5
tuscan (1000genomes)
27.49


6
tuscan (hapmap)
27.57


7
tuscan (hgdp)
27.61


8
ashkenazi (harappa)
28.14


9
cypriot (behar)
29.46


10
italian (hgdp)
31.89


11
lebanese (behar)
35.02


12
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
36.43


13
egypt (henn2012)
36.59


14
morocco-n (henn2012)
36.93


15
lebanese-christian (haber)
37.06


16
lebanese-muslim (haber)
37.07


17
jordanian (behar)
37.11


18
samaritian (behar)
37.14


19
palestinian (hgdp)
37.74


20
lebanese-druze (haber)
37.95



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

65.3%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
34.7%
druze (hgdp)
@
9.47


2

63%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
37%
samaritian (behar)
@
10.08


3

63.1%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
36.9%
lebanese-christian (haber)
@
10.39


4

57%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
43%
cypriot (behar)
@
10.6


5

63.8%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
36.2%
lebanese-druze (haber)
@
10.7


6

66.6%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
33.4%
georgia-jew (behar)
@
11.68


7

67%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
33%
azerbaijan-jew (behar)
@
11.7


8

66.5%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
33.5%
iraq-jew (behar)
@
11.73


9

63.7%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
36.3%
lebanese-muslim (haber)
@
11.86


10

67.6%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
32.4%
iranian-jew (behar)
@
12.03


11

67.3%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
32.7%
assyrian (harappa)
@
12.12


12

62.5%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
37.5%
lebanese (behar)
@
12.49


13

68%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
32%
iraqi-mandaean (harappa)
@
12.5


14

64.5%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
35.5%
palestinian (hgdp)
@
12.63


15

68.2%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
31.8%
armenian (behar)
@
12.64


16

64.2%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
35.8%
jordanian (behar)
@
12.86


17

65.1%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
34.9%
syrian (behar)
@
13.01


18

50.6%
sephardic-jew (behar)
+
49.4%
sardinian (hgdp)
@
13.24


19

74.3%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
25.7%
georgian (behar)
@
13.31


20

65.5%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
34.5%
palestinian (harappa)
@
13.31



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% cypriot +50% sardinian @ 12.105780


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% cypriot +25% sardinian +25% sardinian @ 12.105780


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 cypriot + cypriot + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.105780
2 cypriot + samaritian + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.127272
3 druze + sardinian + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.393720
4 druze + morocco-jew + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.457637
5 druze + sardinian + sardinian + sephardic-jew @ 12.614016
6 cypriot + lebanese-christian + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.629835
7 cypriot + druze + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.725721
8 samaritian + sardinian + sardinian + sephardic-jew @ 12.827868
9 cypriot + sardinian + sardinian + sephardic-jew @ 12.941006
10 cypriot + lebanese-druze + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.941720
11 morocco-jew + samaritian + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.987662
12 cypriot + morocco-jew + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.997843
13 lebanese-christian + sardinian + sardinian + sephardic-jew @ 13.105631
14 lebanese-christian + morocco-jew + sardinian + sardinian @ 13.151128
15 lebanese-druze + sardinian + sardinian + sephardic-jew @ 13.332189
16 lebanese-druze + morocco-jew + sardinian + sardinian @ 13.340966
17 lebanese-christian + samaritian + sardinian + sardinian @ 13.348898
18 druze + samaritian + sardinian + sardinian @ 13.368311
19 cypriot + lebanese-muslim + sardinian + sardinian @ 13.419899
20 cypriot + lebanese + sardinian + sardinian @ 13.447776



"His migration into Europe or affinity" below

puntDNAL K12 Ancient Oracle results:

puntDNAL K12 Ancient Oracle

Kit M897077

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Anatolian_NF
64.54


2
Near_East
17.25


3
Caucasus_HG
9.06


4
European_HG
8.78


5
Sub-Saharan
0.31


6
Oceanian
0.06



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Starcevo_MN_I0174
4.44


2
LBK_EN_I0054
5.52


3
Stuttgart_SG
5.92


4
Iberia_EN_I0412
10.18


5
Hungary_EN_I0495
10.81


6
Iceman_MN_SG
12.2


7
Hungary_CA_I1497
14.59


8
Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489
16.93


9
Epserstedt_MN_I0172
18.76


10
Baalberge_MN_I0560
21.81


11
Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300
21.82


12
Iberia_M_ I0406
23.35


13
Anatolian Neolithic_I0746
38.11


14
Anatolian Neolithic_I0745
38.91


15
Hungary_BA_I1502
43.39


16
Vatya_SG_RISE479
43.58


17
Alberstedt_LN_I0118
45.34


18
Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97
46.96


19
Halberstadt_LBA_I0099
47.79


20
Unetice_EBA_I0117
48.09



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#


Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1


90.9%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
9.1%
Anatolian Neolithic_I0745
@
2.11


2


90.7%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
9.3%
Anatolian Neolithic_I0746
@
2.11


3


70%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
30%
Stuttgart_SG
@
4.03


4


73.6%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
26.4%
LBK_EN_I0054
@
4.25


5


89.9%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
10.1%
Iberia_EN_I0412
@
4.32


6


98.8%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
1.2%
Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489
@
4.43


7


100%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
0%
LaBrana
@
4.44


8


100%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
0%
Motala12
@
4.44


9


100%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
0%
Loschbour_SG
@
4.44


10


100%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
0%
Karelia_HG_I0061
@
4.44


11


100%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
0%
Iberia_Mesolithic_I0585
@
4.44


12


100%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
0%
Hungary_HG_I1507
@
4.44


13


100%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
0%
Bichon
@
4.44


14


100%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
0%
Samara_HG_I0124
@
4.44


15


100%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
0%
Samara_Eneolithic_I0433
@
4.44


16


100%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
0%
Afanasievo_SG_RISE511
@
4.44


17


100%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
0%
Sintashta_MBA_RISE395
@
4.44


18


100%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
0%
Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386
@
4.44


19


100%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
0%
Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00
@
4.44


20


100%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
0%
Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549
@
4.44



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Stuttgart_SG +50% Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.449605


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Stuttgart_SG +25% Starcevo_MN_I0174 +25% Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.449605


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Stuttgart_SG + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.272701
2 Stuttgart_SG + Stuttgart_SG + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.449605
3 Stuttgart_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.494658
4 LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.496826
5 LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.641380
6 Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.702582
7 Iberia_EN_I0412 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.816988
8 Stuttgart_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.044842
9 Stuttgart_SG + Stuttgart_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.066800
10 LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.114842
11 Stuttgart_SG + Stuttgart_SG + Stuttgart_SG + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.179961
12 Iberia_EN_I0412 + LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.282451
13 Iberia_EN_I0412 + Stuttgart_SG + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.285719
14 Iceman_MN_SG + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.658989
15 Hungary_EN_I0495 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.691091
16 Stuttgart_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 @ 5.826201
17 LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 @ 5.834327
18 Hungary_EN_I0495 + Stuttgart_SG + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.878696
19 Stuttgart_SG + Stuttgart_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 @ 5.898808
20 Hungary_EN_I0495 + LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.949750


or maybe one prefers his analysis from russian scholars

Near East Neolithic K13 4-Ancestors Oracle This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

gedrosia K13 Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC
70.65


2
CHG_EEF
18.32


3
NATUFIAN
7.07


4
IRAN_NEOLITHIC
2.93




Finished reading population data. 145 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Stuttgart @ 14.097481
2 Europe_EN @ 21.053988
3 Europe_MNChL @ 24.525970
4 Anatolia_N @ 29.972769
5 Anatolia_ChL @ 35.950886
6 Sardinian @ 36.162647
7 Sicilian @ 53.648846
8 Albanian @ 54.318569
9 Armenia_ChL @ 54.480675
10 Greek @ 55.342281
11 Jew_Moroccan @ 55.618534
12 Jew_Libyan @ 56.403713
13 Italian_South @ 56.427704
14 Cypriot @ 56.513802
15 Jew_Tunisian @ 56.605286
16 Jew_Ashkenazi @ 57.473385
17 Bulgarian @ 58.344040
18 Levant_N @ 58.826546
19 Romanian @ 61.076805
20 Turkish @ 61.601536

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Anatolia_N +50% Sardinian @ 6.029018


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Anatolia_N +25% Italian_South +25% Stuttgart @ 4.967160


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Anatolia_N + Stuttgart + Stuttgart + Stuttgart @ 4.389101
2 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Italian_South + Stuttgart @ 4.967160
3 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Sardinian + Stuttgart @ 4.990949
4 Albanian + Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Stuttgart @ 5.371789
5 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Sicilian + Stuttgart @ 5.390258
6 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Greek + Stuttgart @ 5.596020
7 Anatolia_N + Europe_EN + Sardinian + Stuttgart @ 5.647186
8 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Jew_Ashkenazi + Stuttgart @ 5.831095
9 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 6.029018
10 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Bulgarian + Stuttgart @ 6.497656
11 Europe_EN + Europe_EN + Stuttgart + Stuttgart @ 6.638557
12 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Jew_Moroccan + Stuttgart @ 6.773542
13 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Romanian + Stuttgart @ 6.827176
14 Anatolia_N + Europe_EN + Italian_South + Stuttgart @ 7.032627
15 Anatolia_N + Europe_EN + Sicilian + Stuttgart @ 7.050203
16 Anatolia_N + Europe_EN + Stuttgart + Stuttgart @ 7.135321
17 Europe_EN + Stuttgart + Stuttgart + Stuttgart @ 7.220714
18 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Cypriot + Stuttgart @ 7.250607
19 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Jew_Tunisian + Stuttgart @ 7.254900
20 Albanian + Anatolia_N + Europe_EN + Stuttgart @ 7.343131

LeBrok
13-01-17, 21:08
below is the 9000 year old T1 Ydna ancient sample from Jordan who is stated to have origins from NE-Anatolia

HarappaWorld Oracle results:

23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Kit M897077

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Mediterranean
47.24


2
Caucasian
37.64


3
SW-Asian
14


4
NE-Euro
0.86


5
W-African
0.27





This one is from Barcin, West Turkey, not Jordan.

Sile
13-01-17, 21:38
This one is from Barcin, West Turkey, not Jordan.

this is what I got ..............is what I got wrong?...not by chart below

Isn't I0707 the T1a ( ydna ) jordanian sample


Edit - you could be right as

Ain Ghazal T
ID I1707 AG83_5
Y DNA T1-PF5610 (xT1a1-Z526, T1a1a-CTS9163, T1a1a-CTS2607, T1a2-S11611, T1a2-Y6031, T1a2a1-P322, T1a3a-Y9189)
Population Neolithic Farmers
Language -
Culture Late Middle PPNB
Date (YBP) 9573 ± 39
House / Location Ain Ghazal
mtDNA R0a
Eye Color: Green or Hazel
Hair Color: Brown
Skin Pigmentation Light
ABO Blood Group Likely O or B

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/ancient%20samples_zpsz0tis8w9.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/ancient%20samples_zpsz0tis8w9.jpg.html)

LeBrok
13-01-17, 21:39
@ Joey D, your best match is Greek East-Islander. You have a tiny bit more LN farmer that lowers SW Asian and raises Med, I would say. Like your ancestors come from Ancient Greece (before Slavic invasion) who survived in Sicilian village secluded and not mixing since. Or just coincidental mixing of genetics made you look like East Greek islander. ;)


# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Joey D

9
38
15



1


25
11

1

1


Greek, East
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
-
0


Sicily
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0


Ashkenazy
1
5
34
19
0
0
1
0
0
0
24
14
0
1
0
0

Sile
13-01-17, 21:56
@ Joey D, your best match is Greek East-Islander. You have a tiny bit more LN farmer that lowers SW Asian and raises Med, I would say. Like your ancestors come from Ancient Greece (before Slavic invasion) who survived in Sicilian village secluded and not mixing since. Or just coincidental mixing of genetics made you look like East Greek islander. ;)


# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Joey D

9
38
15



1


25
11

1

1


Greek, East
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
-
0


Sicily
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0


Ashkenazy
1
5
34
19
0
0
1
0
0
0
24
14
0
1
0
0




some more from gedmatch ..............I will see on getting more if you are interested

M825671 I1293 Iran Mesolithic [9100-8600 BC] HV2 J2a-M410>CTS1085
M595455 I1670 Iran Chalcolithic [4839-4617 BC] U3a'c -
M902476 I1662 Iran Chalcolithic [4831-4612 BC] K1a12a J2a-M410>PF5008
M155294 I1674 Iran Chalcolithic [3972-3800 BC] I1c G1-M342>GG372
M873184 I1665 Iran Chalcolithic [3956-3796 BC] U7a -
M381564 F38 Iran EIA [971-832 BC] N1a3a R1b-Z2103>L584>Y23838
T637158 I1955 Iran Late Medieval [1430–1485 AD] U1a1 -

M417230 I1407 Armenia Chalcolithic [4350-3700 BC] H L1a-M27
M133098 I1409 Armenia Chalcolithic [4229-3985 BC] U4a -
M162111 I1632 Armenia Chalcolithic [4230-4000 BC] K1a8 L1a-M27
M734029 I1634 Armenia Chalcolithic [4330-4060 BC] H2a1 L1a-M27
M731608 I1633 Armenia EBA [2619-2410 BC] H1u -
M340653 I1635 Armenia EBA [2619-2465 BC] X2f R1b-M343>L389>V1636
M487536 RISE413 Armenia MBA [1906-1698 BC] T2c1f R1b-M343>L389>P297
M124777 RISE416 Armenia MBA [1643-1445 BC] K1a17a E-M84
M575241 RISE423 Armenia MBA [1402-1211 BC] T2a E-M84>CTS1096 (Y5412-, Y14899-, PF6751-)
M578721 RISE408 Armenia LBA [1209-1009 BC] I5c J2b-M102>L283>CTS3681
M263493 RISE412 Armenia LBA [1193-945 BC] U4c1a -
M062682 RISE396 Armenia LBA [1192-937 BC] H6b -
M497255 RISE397 Armenia LBA [1048-855 BC] T1a2 R1b-Z2103>Z2106>BY3296

M471006 I1705 Jordan EBA [2198-1966 BC] H14a J1-P58>Z2324
M682666 I1730 Jordan EBA [2489-2299 BC] R0a1a J2b-M205>PF7331

M987765 Tep001 Anatolia Early Neolithic [7014 BC] K1a n/a
M830273 Tep003 Anatolia Early Neolithic [7174 BC] N1b1a G2a-P287>P15>PF3159
M300627 Kum4 Anatolia EBA [3500–2800 BC] n/a -

M733797 RISE109 Unetice EBA Poland [1954-1772 BC] U4 -
M453254 RISE154 Unetice EBA Poland [1925-1765 BC] K1a4a1 -
M239638 RISE586 Unetice EBA Czech Republic [?] K1b1a -
M484113 RISE139 Unetice Poland [2135-1923 BC] U2e1f1 n/a
M069028 RISE145 Unetice Poland [2188-1958 BC] H6a1b -

M483824 RISE598 Lithuania LBA [908-485 BC] H2a2 R1a-L62>M417

M669778 RISE1 Corded Ware Poland [2865-2578 BC] K1b1a1 R1b-M343>L754
M191719 RISE431 Corded Ware Proto-Unetice Poland [2286-2048 BC] T2e R1a-M417

M631469 RISE349 Hungary MBA [2034-1748 BC] T2b3 -
M375165 RISE373 Maros Hungary [1886-1696 BC] K1a2a -
M974598 RISE374 Maros Hungary [1866-1619 BC] T2 G2a-P287>P15>PF3177

M130094 RISE61 Battle Axe Denmark [2650-2300 BC] J1c4 R1a-M417>Z284>CTS8401

M370663 I0419 Potapovka [2200-1900 BC] U2e1h R1a-M417>Z93
M630274 I0432 Poltavka outlier [2925-2536 BC] U5a1c R1a-M417>Z94

M214301 RISE595 Montenegro LBA [?] U5a2 -
M836655 RISE596 Montenegro IA [?] X1'2'3 -

M030961 K8 Bulgaria IA [450-400 BC] n/a -
M212372 P192-1 Bulgaria IA [800-500 BC] U3b E-M78>Z1919
M540478 T2G2 Bulgaria IA [850-700 BC] HV(16311) -
M777769 V2 Bulgaria LBA [1500-1100 BC] n/a -

LeBrok
13-01-17, 22:47
Good call. I've seen some formal stats for Italians that show the best "mixing" population is indeed Bronze Age Hungarian. (If I mis-remembered that, Fire-Haired can correct it.)It will be interesting to figure out if these BA Hungarian like (possibly from SW Yanaya/Cucuteni mix, because they completely lack steppe Baloch admixture), were the Italo-Celtic stock or not? We see similar genetic effect, of these BA Hungarian like, on BA Spain.
Interestingly, we can explain changes in Greek genetics using this BA Hungarian, but there is one caveat. If these BA people from North Balkans spoke Italo-Celtic, how could they speak also such archaic IE like Greek? This probably make BA Anatolian rout for BA Greeks more likely. Well, could have been both, but at the end the Anatolian IE gave Greeks their language.

This Northern Anatolian from Early BA comes handy, and pretty good candidate of IE Greek invasion.


Anatolia EBA 3500-2800
M300627 Kum4


Population



S-Indian
-


Baloch
12.04


Caucasian
15.06


NE-Euro
41.42


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-


American
4.53


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
13.9


SW-Asian
11.92


San
0.49


E-African
-


Pygmy
0.63


W-African
-

LeBrok
13-01-17, 22:49
some more from gedmatch ..............I will see on getting more if you are interested

All you can get. Thanks Sile.

Boreas
14-01-17, 07:51
Now I added Sardinians and Turks from Istanbul. Sardinians look like true EEF with a bit of Steppe in them. One surprise is that they don't carry any Baloch. Sardinia didn't go through Bronze age changes rest of Italy did.
Istanbul's Med is low, which is very surprising for part of Turkey by Mediteranean sea, SW low too. Very high Caucasian and Baloch points to very strong genetic push from Armenia/Georgia region into whole Anatolia, some time ago. This could have pushed previous occupants of Anatolia into Balkans/ Italy, possibly by means of the sea?


Europeans # of samples S-Indian Baloch Caucasian NE-Euro SE-Asian Siberian NE-Asian Papuan American Beringian Mediterranean SW-Asian San E-African Pygmy W-African
Poland LeBrok 1 7 10 57 1 1 0 0 0 0 22 1 0 0 0 0
Netherlands Northerner 0 9 6 55 0 0 0 1 0 0 29 0 0 0 0 0
Albania Dibran 0 5 30 27 0 0 0 0 0 0 30 8 0 0 0 0
Italy, NE 7 0 7 20 34 0 0 0 0 0 0 31 6 0 0 0 0
Italy, NW 5 0 6 20 33 0 0 0 0 0 0 34 6 0 0 0 0
Italy, Tuscany 4 0 7 25 28 0 0 0 0 0 0 32 8 0 0 0 0
Italy, South 5 0 8 32 17 0 0 0 0 0 0 27 13 0 1 0 0
Sicily 5 0 9 32 18 0 0 0 0 0 0 27 12 0 1 0 0
Sardinia 2 0 0 23 17 0 0 0 0 0 0 48 11 0 0 0 0
Ashkenazy ? 1 7 39 16 0 1 0 0 0 0 24 15 0 1 0 0
turk-istanbul ? 1 16 45 11 1 3 3 0 0 1 11 9 0 0




0 0



Everybody says Turks are mixed people but that guy from Istanbul is more pure then rest of Italian except Sardinians



He has 5.56 Siberian though. Likely some Balkan/Slav admixture as well I think.


Good guess, my grandparents from father side are from Bulgaria.:good_job:



Indeed, you're very distant from any Turkish sample on Harappa, and Harappa has many Tuskish samples, at least 6.



I means that I am wierd combination :laughing:




I think it's more a generic connection that Ashkenazy Jews have with the south-eastern European cluster. Italians range from the southern-western cluster (north-western Italians who tend to be closer to Iberians and southern French) to the southeastern European cluster (with South Italians and Sicilians who tend to be intermediate between Greek mainlanders and Greek Islanders, tendentially closer to the latter but more north-western shifted than them).



When you think Greek colonies in South Italia, it makes sense (Magna Graciea) However all Sicilain results say that they are more close-2 times to Askenazy Jews then Italians.


I could easily understand, if in the all Italian's results first 5-10 population groups were again from Italia and after that Askhenazy Jews samples were as number 11-13 in South Italians results and Spanish-French samples were at 12-15 in North Italian results.


Italian range is very much larger then other Europe nations. Actually the largest one.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/genmap1.jpg






Whatever, it is good to see people who are as far as me to their average national statistics. :laughing:



For a mixed origin guy like you this doesn't work. By means of whole genome or pca distances you will plot close to these guys but you are quite different.



Yes, in generaly Turks are mix but there is some connection between other Turkish samples

Boreas 3% 11% 29% 22% 0% 6% 3% 0% 0% 0% 19% 7% 0% 0% 0% 0%


turk-aydin 1% 12% 38% 14% 0% 6% 4% 0% 0% 1% 14% 9% 0% 0% 0% 0%
turk-istanbul 1% 16% 45% 11% 1% 3% 3% 0% 0% 1% 11% 9% 0% 0% 0% 0%
turk 1% 16% 47% 9% 0% 4% 2% 0% 1% 1% 10% 10% 0% 0% 0% 0%
turk-kayseri 1% 15% 45% 8% 1% 4% 2% 0% 0% 1% 11% 10% 0% 0% 0% 0%
turkish 2% 17% 40% 9% 1% 4% 2% 1% 1% 1% 11% 11% 1% 1% 0% 0%


There are high similarity between other Turks just Aydın sample (from West Turkey) is a bit close to me. Clear Caucausian genetic structure. My Anatolian/Causcasian admix is 10-15% below then others and NE-Europe - Med admix are clearly higher.


I am like a missing link between Anatolian Turks and Balkan People :grin:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And this is my table, which shows mixed nations who have less then 30% in all groups.(as me)


In Americans, Mexican and Colombian; in Old World, Western Central Asian and East Iranic.


kazakh harappa 2% 10% 8% 14% 0% 29% 29% 0% 2% 2% 4% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
uzbek behar 5% 18% 17% 14% 0% 17% 20% 0% 1% 2% 4% 2% 0% 0% 0% 0%
turkmen yunusbayev 5% 26% 30% 10% 1% 7% 8% 0% 1% 1% 4% 7% 0% 0% 0% 0%
hazara harappa 7% 18% 13% 8% 2% 15% 25% 1% 1% 3% 4% 2% 0% 0% 0% 0%
parsi harappa 16% 28% 28% 5% 1% 1% 0% 0% 1% 2% 4% 12% 1% 1% 0% 0%
tajik harappa 6% 19% 16% 15% 0% 12% 20% 1% 2% 3% 3% 1% 1% 0% 0% 0%
hazara hgdp 6% 20% 13% 9% 1% 18% 28% 1% 1% 1% 2% 1% 0% 0% 0% 0%

Boreas
14-01-17, 07:55
I guess, I have to learn how to do tables :(

Angela
14-01-17, 15:15
Boreas, given that half your ancestry is from Bulgaria, is there any possibility that there was some intermarriage while your ancestors were there? That could possibly explain it, yes?

Milan.M
14-01-17, 16:38
Boreas, given that half your ancestry is from Bulgaria, is there any possibility that there was some intermarriage while your ancestors were there? That could possibly explain it, yes?
In most cases there was just changing religion and automaticaly becoming "Turks" or Ottomans.Even today people that are Muslims but speaking Slavic languages consider themselves Turks in regions of Bulgaria,Macedonia etc,most of them don't know a word in Turkish unless they learn it in school,even prior dissolution of ottoman empire(I guess Boreas ancestors immigrated in that period of time) they learned it uppon imigrating into Turkey.Religion=ethnicity in the old system.I wonder what is with Boreas family,whether they were Turks or islamized locals?

LeBrok
14-01-17, 16:41
Everybody says Turks are mixed people but that guy from Istanbul is more pure then rest of Italian except Sardinians
What do you mean?


I could easily understand, if in the all Italian's results first 5-10 population groups were again from Italia and after that Askhenazy Jews samples were as number 11-13 in South Italians results and Spanish-French samples were at 12-15 in North Italian results.Check my post 232.

Sakattack
14-01-17, 16:43
Samples from Greece are interesting. It is possible that all Greece was like Cyprus before IE Greeks invasion. We just need to subtract 6 points of NE Euro.
Greek east islands are not too much different, they just have more NE Euro, which dilutes other components. This must be close to state of Greek population before Slavic invasion.
Greek mainland, original occupants of mid Bronze Age + IE Greeks + Slavs.



Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African






















Greek, mainland
3
0
6
32
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
11
0
0
0
0


Greek, Islands, East
5
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0


Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0
























I would guess that IE Greeks invaders were something like Bronze Age Hungarian. Roughly we would need 1 IE invader to 3-4 locals to make Cypriots look like Greek islanders.



BR1 Hungary



Population



S-Indian
-


Baloch
3.15


Caucasian
14.73


NE-Euro
46.18


SE-Asian
0.2


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.18


American
-


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
31.73


SW-Asian
3.33


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.48





Good call. I've seen some formal stats for Italians that show the best "mixing" population is indeed Bronze Age Hungarian. (If I mis-remembered that, Fire-Haired can correct it.)

Fwiw, Copper Age Otzi had the same amount of SWAsian as modern Tuscans (about 9-10%, I think). Now, obviously there were genetic changes after that, but it's unlikely, in my opinion, that it was totally wiped out and then totally replaced.

The thing about Egyptians, which, if my memory serves, was often said about Crete, has been proved incorrect by ancient dna.

This is the population that first hit Crete, perhaps a population that originated in southern Anatolia. Ancient dna should tell us more.


Greek Islanders as always are the most similar of South Italians and Sicilians, but with some differences: we score 6 point less of Caucasian, 3/4 point more of North East European and 1/2 point less of SW Asian. I really like to see Asia Minor Greeks, Egyptian Greeks and Antiochian Greeks' results, they mostly live in mainland Greece nowadays afaik.
Regarding the slight differences of South Italians and Sicilians on average, it has to do with the samples selected and the calculator, the Italian website Ethnopedia use Eutest and the slight difference is 1 point more of Middle East for Sicilians and one point more of East Med for South Italians on average, and 0.5/0.7 point of more African for Sicilians.

Hi all!

I thought that maybe my results would be somehow useful, since I am 100% Cappadocian Greek. I would agree with Lebrok, that maybe the Greek DNA before the IE and the Slavic migration (and the Arvanite during the middle ages I would add) would be kind of similar with the Cypriots' DNA. Cretans are not to so far either, and I would add them to the discussion too.

The bad thing with this Harappa calculator is that does not include Greek samples. Even though that I have some distance, my closest matches on other calcs (MDLP has relevant many samples) are the Cretans, the Cypriots and the islanders (and of course the other Asia Minor Greeks). For example:




1
Cretan ( )
5.93


2
Greek_Smyrna ( )
5.99


3
Cypriot ( )
6.49


4
Azov_Greek ( )
7.15


5
Syrian_Jew ( )
8.03


6
Greek_Islands ( )
8.05


7
Greek ( )
8.41


8
Greek_Macedonia ( )
8.43


9
Greek_Athens ( )
9.11




So, in harappa, my results are the following:




S-Indian
0.11


Baloch
11.30


Caucasian
46.20


NE-Euro
8.85


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
0.61


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.16


American
-


Beringian
0.23


Mediterranean
19.89


SW-Asian
12.64







Having in mind that my genetic make up lacks slavobalkan admixture and probably is to lower degree exposed to the IE, I think that the Pre/ProtoGreeks were kind of similar to me. Most likely Anatolia, Greek peninsula, Crete, Islands Cyprus and maybe Northern Levant were inhabited by populations with the same genetic characteristics.

Boreas
14-01-17, 19:05
Boreas, given that half your ancestry is from Bulgaria, is there any possibility that there was some intermarriage while your ancestors were there? That could possibly explain it, yes?

Unfortunately, I have no information about it but, that would explain my blond haired-blue eyed grandmother.

Maybe a bulgarian girl got into family, maybe they took orpham bulgarian boy or islamisation and Turkification, no idea:sad-2:

I have no idea how close them but this is y-25 marker results
8374


In most cases there was just changing religion and automaticaly becoming "Turks" or Ottomans.Even today people that are Muslims but speaking Slavic languages consider themselves Turks in regions of Bulgaria,Macedonia etc,most of them don't know a word in Turkish unless they learn it in school,even prior dissolution of ottoman empire(I guess Boreas ancestors immigrated in that period of time) they learned it uppon imigrating into Turkey.Religion=ethnicity in the old system.I wonder what is with Boreas family,whether they were Turks or islamized locals?

They came just before end of the WW2 or just after the war, but they are from Turk villages in Central Bulgaria / near Kazanlak. But not mucth Turk left in Central Bulgaria.


What do you mean?


I mean Turk-İstanbul sample high Caucausian rate but none of Italian has that much high results in any group(expect Sardinian Med rate)


Hi all!


I thought that maybe my results would be somehow useful, since I am 100% Cappadocian Greek.

Nice results, just like a puzzle you are fitting in Anatolian Greek structure.

ΜΑΣΑΛΛΑΧ :grin:

Northener
14-01-17, 19:18
Yep, not bad at all. You just have a tiny bit more EEF in you, which gives more Med and Caucasian and less NE Euro (EHG).

There are lies and statistics hahahah

According to this no Unetice at all!

David from Eurogenes/Gedmatch:

Based on the Global 10 datasheet, which has more Nordic LN samples than the K7 sheet, this is how you come out:

Nordic_LN 64.2
Bell_Beaker_Germany 35.8
Corded_Ware_Germany 0.0
Unetice_EBA 0.0


Any thoughts about this LeBrok?

LeBrok
14-01-17, 19:54
Hi all!

I thought that maybe my results would be somehow useful, since I am 100% Cappadocian Greek. I would agree with Lebrok, that maybe the Greek DNA before the IE and the Slavic migration (and the Arvanite during the middle ages I would add) would be kind of similar with the Cypriots' DNA. Cretans are not to so far either, and I would add them to the discussion too.

The bad thing with this Harappa calculator is that does not include Greek samples. Even though that I have some distance, my closest matches on other calcs (MDLP has relevant many samples) are the Cretans, the Cypriots and the islanders (and of course the other Asia Minor Greeks). For example:



So, in harappa, my results are the following:



Having in mind that my genetic make up lacks slavobalkan admixture and probably is to lower degree exposed to the IE, I think that the Pre/ProtoGreeks were kind of similar to me. Most likely Anatolia, Greek peninsula, Crete, Islands Cyprus and maybe Northern Levant were inhabited by populations with the same genetic characteristics.
That's amazing, thanks for sharing! You are like Cypriot, the suspected proxy for Early/Mid Bronze Age population of Greece and Anatolia, just with less SW Asian. Additional SW Asian could have been brought to Cyprus by Phoenicians, or more from original inhabitants, first farmers of Cyprus.
I'm expecting to see in Copper/Early/Mid Bronze age, replacement or very heavily mixed of population of Anatolia and Greece, with newcomers from East Anatolia/Armenia/and some Steppe mix. This could have been carried farther to Italy and Sicily by Greeks, and Cretans and other islanders before them.
Other explanation for your extreme likeness to Cypriots is that your ancestors Greeks emigrated to Central Anatolia not long ago and didn't mix much with local population. Some population movement within Turkish Empire, forced resettlement?

LeBrok
14-01-17, 20:51
That's amazing, thanks for sharing! You are like Cypriot, the suspecting proxy for Early/Mid Bronze Age population of Greece and Anatolia, just with less SW Asian. Additional SW Asian could have been brought to Cyprus by Phoenicians, or more from original inhabitants, first farmers of Cyprus.
I'm expecting to see in Copper/Early/Mid Bronze age, replacement or very heavily mixed of population of Anatolia and Greece, with newcomers from East Anatolia/Armenia/and some Steppe mix. This could have been carried farther to Italy and Sicily by Greeks, and Cretans and other islanders before them.
Other explanation for your extreme likeness to Cypriots is that your ancestors Greeks emigrated to Central Anatolia not long ago and didn't mix much with local population. Some population movement within Turkish Empire, forced resettlement?
I've compiled changes in Anatolia, from EN to today. First two samples are from EN one from West Turkey and one from Central South. They are very close to European EEF, EEF has a bit more WHG in them. There is one Chalcolithic, showing influence of Caucasus and Steppe during Late Neolithic. Forth is from our member Sakatack, very likely like Greek Cappadocia (central Turkey). Chalcolithic Anatolia and Sakattack (Cappadocia) is very close to today's Cyprus genome. (in previous posts).



M897077


M830273 Tep003

M091434 I1584





Anatolian EF
Barcin

Anatolia Early Neolithic [7174 BC]
Anatolian Chalcolithic
Sakattack


Population


Population


Population

Population


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
0.11


Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
9.14

Baloch
11.3


Caucasian
37.64

Caucasian
48.07

Caucasian
48.14

Caucasian
46.2


NE-Euro
0.86

NE-Euro
3.95

NE-Euro
6.45

NE-Euro
8.85


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian



Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
0.16

Siberian
0.61


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian



Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
0.16


American
-

American
-

American
-

American



Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
0.23


Mediterranean
47.24

Mediterranean
34.67

Mediterranean
26.7

Mediterranean
19.89


SW-Asian
14.00

SW-Asian
13.19

SW-Asian
9.27

SW-Asian
12.64


San
-

San
-

San
-

San



E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African



Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy



W-African
0.27


0.13

W-African


W-African




Here are samples from modern Turkey.



Turkey
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


1
turk
1
15.71
46.74
8.9
0.33
3.66
2.36
0.29
0.52
0.67
9.83
9.72
0.07
0.11
0.04
0.07


2
turk-aydin
0.86
11.66
38.15
14.31
0.35
6.04
3.98
0.46
0.48
0.68
13.63
8.64
0.09
0.25
0.02
0.4


3
turk-istanbul
1.13
15.51
45.12
10.68
0.53
3.04
3.09
0.38
0.21
0.71
10.66
8.72
0.05
0.11
0.05
0.01


4
turk-kayseri
0.82
15.41
45.47
8.48
0.69
3.55
2.3
0.41
0.34
0.79
11.13
10.48
0.03
0.05
0.02
0.03



They are all much lower in Med and showing more Steppe/Siberian input of Baloch, Siberian, NE Asian, and other NE/Central asian admixtures. I think, this is the change of last 2,000 years, especially since Turkic invasion of Anatolia. My guess is that they gave 10-15% new genetic input in Anatolia.

Sakattack
14-01-17, 21:19
That's amazing, thanks for sharing! You are like Cypriot, the suspecting proxy for Early/Mid Bronze Age population of Greece and Anatolia, just with less SW Asian. Additional SW Asian could have been brought to Cyprus by Phoenicians, or more from original inhabitants, first farmers of Cyprus.
I'm expecting to see in Copper/Early/Mid Bronze age, replacement or very heavily mixed of population of Anatolia and Greece, with newcomers from East Anatolia/Armenia/and some Steppe mix. This could have been carried farther to Italy and Sicily by Greeks, and Cretans and other islanders before them.
Other explanation for your extreme likeness to Cypriots is that your ancestors Greeks emigrated to Central Anatolia not long ago and didn't mix much with local population. Some population movement within Turkish Empire, forced resettlement?

I am glad you found my results interesting!

As for the bold, I am unaware for any movement of my ancestors quite recently. Although, this maaaay be the case a bit further back in time, since there are rumors that the small town from which all of 4 grandparents come, was founded a) from Cretans (there is a much older settlement in Crete with the same name) b) from islanders from Naxos c) from migrants from Istanbul. It is for sure, though, that the town exists from around 1600 (and maybe earlier with other name) in Cappadocia.

Your interpretation in total sounds like a good call.