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View Full Version : Ancestry from Europe's Last Hunter Gatherers persist in the Northern corner of Europe



Fire Haired14
06-10-16, 08:08
Map of the last location in Europe which remained genetically stagnant from the Mesolithic till the end of the Neolithic. The modern people here have easily detectable ancestry from those last hunter gatherers.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12019&stc=1

Background Info
Both archaeology and aDNA tell us that the Northern tip of Europe; Scandinavia(x the Southern tip), Finland, Karelia, Kola Peninsula, Eastern Baltic coast, Northern part of the modern country of Russia is the only region of Europe which remained as it was genetically in the Mesolithic up until the end of the Neolithic(2000s BC). Archaeology and aDNA tell us people who were a mixture of four different Mesolithic West Eurasians instead of one like the natives; Corded Ware, ended this continuum and introduced what today is the primary form of ancestry in this region of Europe.

Europe's last hunter gatherers were absorbed by Corded Ware. We know this because we can see their genes in modern people in the Northern tip of Europe. This *small* extra dose of hunter gatherer(mostly or complexly WHG) ancestry in Far Northern Europeans is why they've toped the charts in affinity to Mesolithic European genomes for years.

I'm not sure if most of you are aware of this information. Modern DNA interestingly consistent with archaeology. Modern humans in what was farmer territory when Corded Ware arrived; such as Swedes and Poles, can be explained as Corded Ware+MN farmer with only minor hunter gatherer ancestry. In contrast humans in what was hunter gatherer territory when Corded Ware arrived, such as Lithuanians and Finns, score as much or more hunter gatherer than MN farmer. This geographic trend isn't a coincidence.

The Saami in Scandinavia(xthe southern tip) and Finland have the most local hunter gatherer ancestry. Several ADMIXTURE tests and D-stats confirm this. Their European side might be as much as 30% descended from Scandinavian hunter gatherers similar to the Mesolithic genomes from Motala Sweden. I won't be surprised if Uralic languages and Siberian ancestry arrived in Scandinavia less than 4,000 years ago, and so as recent as 3,500 years ago there were still people of mostly local Scandinavian hunter gatherer decent.

Fits for Far Northern Europeans and their Western/Southern Neighbors(Norse and Slavic speakers) using results from Eurogenes ADMIXTURE test Admix.8.Q (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XswOpaOowUkH-Io2sjEN1dN9HeLFBKcKPd1K3dxIidc/edit#gid=1956803379).

Hunter Gatherer Territory
Corded Ware Estonia: 78% CWC Germany, 18% SwedenMN, 9% EuroHG
Modern Lithuania: 60% CWC Germany, 20% SwedenMN, 20% EuroHG
Modern Ingrain(European side): 64% CWC Germany, 15% SwedenMN, 21% EuroHG
Modern North Russia(European Side): 62% CWC Germany, 18% SwedenMN, 20% EuroHG
Modern Saami(European Side): 57% CWC Germany, 10% SwedenMN, 33% EuroHG


Farmer territory
Corded Ware Sweden: 88% CWC Germany, 12% EsperstedtMN, 0% EuroHG.
Late Corded Ware Poland: 65% CWC Germany, 27% SwedenMN, 8% EuroHG
Modern Norway: 60% CWC Germany, 35% SwedenMN, 5% EuroHG
Modern Poland: 68% CWC Germany, 25% SwedenMN, 7% EuroHG

I'll provide ancestry fits for far Northern Europeans, and others for comparison later. I am posting another result for Saami using a different method to give more evidence they have an unusually high amount of local hunter gatherer ancestry.

Here are results for Saami modelling their European side as Yamnaya+MN farmer+European Hunter gatherer using the above method and D_stats provided by Eurogenes here (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/06/d-statsnmonte-open-thread-3.html).

Eurogenes ADMIXTURE test Admix.8.Q (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XswOpaOowUkH-Io2sjEN1dN9HeLFBKcKPd1K3dxIidc/edit#gid=1956803379).
33% Yamnaya
24% MN farmer
43% EuroHG

Eurogenes D-stats spreadsheet (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/06/d-statsnmonte-open-thread-3.html)
42% Yamnaya
29% MN Farmer
30% Euro HG(17% Motala_HG, 7% Eastern_HG, 6% Hungary_HG)

Fire Haired14
06-10-16, 08:18
Imagine if when Rome was founded, there still near full blooded Neolithic Anatolians in Sardinia and Mesolithic Europeans in Scandinavia.

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It's ironic that Lithuanians in the genetic forum community have been seen as the purest Europeans so to speak, yet their region changed more genetically than any other in Europe in the last 5,000 years. I guess there's an assumption that since they live so far north they're far away from everyone. But who are they far away from? The Middle East. There are more people than Middle Easterners. The only region people considered could have changed Europe genetically was the Middle East. Thee's a "Before Europe, Middle East" assumption. They didn't take into account ancient diversity could follow geographic trends beyond Europe vs Middle East.

Btw, Corded Ware was very foreign to Lithuania, about as foreign as Neolithic farmers(who never arrived in their pure or close to pure form). How modern Lithuanian got their famous high Mesolithic affinity finally makes sense. Overall they probably are of mostly Mesolithic European decent, but from all over the Eastern half the continent(WHG in Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania. EHG in Russia) not only where they live now.

bicicleur
06-10-16, 09:20
Imagine if when Rome was founded, there still near full blooded Neolithic Anatolians in Sardinia and Mesolithic Europeans in Scandinavia.

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It's ironic that Lithuanians in the genetic forum community have been seen as the purest Europeans so to speak, yet their region changed more genetically than any other in Europe in the last 5,000 years. I guess there's an assumption that since they live so far north they're far away from everyone. But who are they far away from? The Middle East. There are more people than Middle Easterners. The only region people considered could have changed Europe genetically was the Middle East. Thee's a "Before Europe, Middle East" assumption. They didn't take into account ancient diversity could follow geographic trends beyond Europe vs Middle East.

Btw, Corded Ware was very foreign to Lithuania, about as foreign as Neolithic farmers(who never arrived in their pure or close to pure form). How modern Lithuanian got their famous high Mesolithic affinity finally makes sense. Overall they probably are of mostly Mesolithic European decent, but from all over the Eastern half the continent(WHG in Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania. EHG in Russia) not only where they live now.

what do you mean by middle easterners?

people who live in the middle east today are totally unrelated to the people who lived there 10.000 years ago

Angela
06-10-16, 15:32
what do you mean by middle easterners?

people who live in the middle east today are totally unrelated to the people who lived there 10.000 years ago

They're hardly "totally unrelated".

As for the "news": it's not news. It's been obvious for a long time, even before the modern genetics age, just from the archaeology.

Twilight
08-10-16, 01:57
what do you mean by middle easterners?

people who live in the middle east today are totally unrelated to the people who lived there 10.000 years ago

I would have to agree with Angela, European Ydna J, E1b1b and G2 all have roots in the Middle Eastern animal Herders and Farmers. Even Ydna I came to Europe around the time of the Mesolithic from the Middle east also as Ydna IJ
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#prehistory

Dagne
08-10-16, 05:35
It's ironic that Lithuanians in the genetic forum community have been seen as the purest Europeans so to speak, yet their region changed more genetically than any other in Europe in the last 5,000 years. I guess there's an assumption that since they live so far north they're far away from everyone. But who are they far away from? The Middle East. There are more people than Middle Easterners. The only region people considered could have changed Europe genetically was the Middle East. Thee's a "Before Europe, Middle East" assumption. They didn't take into account ancient diversity could follow geographic trends beyond Europe vs Middle East.

Btw, Corded Ware was very foreign to Lithuania, about as foreign as Neolithic farmers(who never arrived in their pure or close to pure form). How modern Lithuanian got their famous high Mesolithic affinity finally makes sense. Overall they probably are of mostly Mesolithic European decent, but from all over the Eastern half the continent(WHG in Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania. EHG in Russia) not only where they live now.

it is true, Corded Ware must have been very different and foreign to local Hunter Gatherers around Eastern Baltic.

- how foreign we will be see, hopefully, soon when the extensive study on pre-CWC East Baltic DNA comes out.

I myself was surprised over origins of one word 'amber' - which is considered as the most typical "Lithuanian" present, originating from the Baltic and used as local commodity since the the most ancient times.

The word amber in Lithuanian 'gintaras', 'gentaras', is similar to some some Slavic languages and Hungarian ( "jantar" "gyantar"), however, it is not of Baltic or even Indo-European origins.

The reason for this, most probably, is that the Baltic language stands deeply on Indoeuropean foundation, whereas CWC people who spoke some proto indoeuropean language did not live near the Baltic sea originally, and when the CWC come to the territory of Lithuania they may have already been using the word for amber of non-IE origin.

Baltic Finns and Estonians, differently, have their own word for amber Finnish - 'meripihkla' and 'pihkakivi' meaning "sea resin" or "sea stone" or Estonian 'merivaig" - 'sea resin', which shows that the Finnic people originally were at the baltic shores when inventing the word for amber...

Fire Haired14
08-10-16, 08:10
I would have to agree with Angela, European Ydna J, E1b1b and G2 all have roots in the Middle Eastern animal Herders and Farmers. Even Ydna I came to Europe around the time of the Mesolithic from the Middle east also as Ydna IJ
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#prehistory

30,000 year old YDNA I has been found in Europe. The Near Eastern affinity of WHG was blown out of proportion by David Reich's simplified report to the media. There's nothing strongly suggesting WHG is from the Near East. The Magdalonian people look like a mixture of WHG and something that existed in Paleo Belhium. They were mostly Y DNA I like WHG. WHG wasn't very foreign to Paleo Europe, the people were either relatives or descendants of WHG.

Twilight
08-10-16, 08:44
30,000 year old YDNA I has been found in Europe. The Near Eastern affinity of WHG was blown out of proportion by David Reich's simplified report to the media. There's nothing strongly suggesting WHG is from the Near East. The Magdalonian people look like a mixture of WHG and something that existed in Paleo Belhium. They were mostly Y DNA I like WHG. WHG wasn't very foreign to Paleo Europe, the people were either relatives or descendants of WHG.

You are totally right on a autosomal Dna, WHG is native to Europe and haplogroup IJ tribes whom immigrated strait into Europe from the Middleeast eventually turned into WHG. Not doubting you at all :).

The point is that Europe has really close ties genetically with the Middleeast.

epoch
08-10-16, 10:57
30,000 year old YDNA I has been found in Europe. The Near Eastern affinity of WHG was blown out of proportion by David Reich's simplified report to the media. There's nothing strongly suggesting WHG is from the Near East. The Magdalonian people look like a mixture of WHG and something that existed in Paleo Belhium. They were mostly Y DNA I like WHG. WHG wasn't very foreign to Paleo Europe, the people were either relatives or descendants of WHG.


You are totally right on a autosomal Dna, WHG is native to Europe and haplogroup IJ tribes whom immigrated strait into Europe from the Middleeast eventually turned into WHG. Not doubting you at all :).

The point is that Europe has really close ties genetically with the Middleeast.


If you substract GoyetQ116 from El Miron, and thus are left with the WHG admixture in it, it is equally related to Natufians and early Anatolians. However, Villabruna favours Anatolia clearly over Natufians. Goes to show that Villabruna consists of two admixted parts. My guess is, the El Miron part is a Aurignacian distinct from - but related to - GoyetQ116. The Aurignacian shows some evidence of being made of a number of cultures. The other part of Villabruna could then be Gravettian.

Mbuti Villabruna Barcin_Neolithic Israel_Natufian -0.0375 -8.389
GoyetQ116-1 ElMiron Barcin_Neolithic Israel_Natufian -0.0119 -1.891
Mbuti Vestonice16 Barcin_Neolithic Israel_Natufian -0.0383 -8.726


The nicety of such a scenario is that there is a thing called Zagros Aurignac and Levantine Aurignac. Recent datings show that both are newer that European Aurignac and they may be back migrations. The evenly spread Middle-Eastern affinity of WHG (But also El Miron!) may be related to that.

epoch
08-10-16, 11:24
Farmer territory
Corded Ware Sweden: 88% CWC Germany, 12% EsperstedtMN, 0% EuroHG.
Late Corded Ware Poland: 65% CWC Germany, 27% SwedenMN, 8% EuroHG
Modern Norway: 60% CWC Germany, 35% SwedenMN, 5% EuroHG
Modern Poland: 68% CWC Germany, 25% SwedenMN, 7% EuroHG

The additional EuroHG in Poland and Norway is probably higher in NW Europe. We need it to explain higher HG in Scottish, e.g. Where did it came from? I understand survival of HG during LBK, as we understand how: Ertebolla culture shows how. But by the time of Funnel Beaker it should all have been merged. I may have an idea though: There is an article on the ascendance of CWC in the Netherlands, written with the "Pots not People" dogma in mind. It states that in the main FB sites the transition was quick and abrupt but on the fringes it wasn't. My idea is that the HG survival cultures merged with farmer to form FB (and other Middle Neolithic) cultures. But the parts of the land that weren't all that suited for cereal stayed more dependent on fishing and pig keeping. Those had a higher HG ancestry, because they came from HG cultures, even as they admixed into the main culture. The main sites of FB were overrun, decapitated. The fringe sites, with higher HG ancestry, which were more keen on animal husbandry, could relate more to CWC.

Maybe this could also explain why the autosomal part of Anatolian farmers that survived in us (roughly a quarter) is higher that G2a survival (5%).

epoch
08-10-16, 11:52
They're hardly "totally unrelated".

As for the "news": it's not news. It's been obvious for a long time, even before the modern genetics age, just from the archaeology.

Take a look at figure S2 in this paper: http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2062637894/2065011142/mmc1.pdf

EDIT: Which does not prove "unrelatedness", mind you. But current-day Middle-Easterners aren't as related to Anatolian farmers as current day Euro's, even Northern-Euro's in some samples.

Tomenable
08-10-16, 14:02
But current-day Middle-Easterners aren't as related to Anatolian farmers as current day Euro's, even Northern-Euro's in some samples.

Which might also indicate that early Western-Central Anatolian farmers were descended at least partially from Greek hunter-gatherers.

epoch
08-10-16, 22:51
Which might also indicate that early Western-Central Anatolian farmers were descended at least partially from Greek hunter-gatherers.

There is the term "Epigravettian" based on cultural identification. Sensu stricto it refers to Italy, Sensu lato to areas which include Anatolian parts and the Caucasus and part north of the Caspian Sea. I think the Italian part was what came out of LGM (Paglicci71 was U5b) and the wider part is all post LGM HG's mixing in complex ways, the most eastern part becoming EHG.

Fire Haired14
09-10-16, 00:55
The additional EuroHG in Poland and Norway is probably higher in NW Europe. We need it to explain higher HG in Scottish, e.g. Where did it came from? I understand survival of HG during LBK, as we understand how: Ertebolla culture shows how. But by the time of Funnel Beaker it should all have been merged. I may have an idea though: There is an article on the ascendance of CWC in the Netherlands, written with the "Pots not People" dogma in mind. It states that in the main FB sites the transition was quick and abrupt but on the fringes it wasn't. My idea is that the HG survival cultures merged with farmer to form FB (and other Middle Neolithic) cultures. But the parts of the land that weren't all that suited for cereal stayed more dependent on fishing and pig keeping. Those had a higher HG ancestry, because they came from HG cultures, even as they admixed into the main culture. The main sites of FB were overrun, decapitated. The fringe sites, with higher HG ancestry, which were more keen on animal husbandry, could relate more to CWC.

Maybe this could also explain why the autosomal part of Anatolian farmers that survived in us (roughly a quarter) is higher that G2a survival (5%).

I don't know of any evidence the British Isles have more Euro HG ancestry than Scandinavians and Poles. When British are run through the same test display in this thread they score less HG. They have excess WHG ancestry(beyond what MN and Yamnaya can explain) and it could be because of what you suggest, but they don't have more than Scandinavians and Poles.

Twilight
09-10-16, 03:02
Which might also indicate that early Western-Central Anatolian farmers were descended at least partially from Greek hunter-gatherers.

In order for Neolithic Anatolians to get at least partial assimilated Mesolithic Greek ancestry, at least K1c, J1c, T2 and U5 mtdna needs to arrive in Anatolia from Greece and intergrating with Mesolithic Anatolian Tribes by the EpiPaleolithic at the latest. It looks like in the map that both Mesolithic Turkey and Greece have mtdna T2 in common and probably I2 and H2. There could be a plausible possibility that the Mesolithic Greeks assimilated into Neolithic Anatolian life :)


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#mesolithic


30,000 year old YDNA I has been found in Europe. The Near Eastern affinity of WHG was blown out of proportion by David Reich's simplified report to the media. There's nothing strongly suggesting WHG is from the Near East. The Magdalonian people look like a mixture of WHG and something that existed in Paleo Belhium. They were mostly Y DNA I like WHG. WHG wasn't very foreign to Paleo Europe, the people were either relatives or descendants of WHG.

I don't know of any evidence the British Isles have more Euro HG ancestry than Scandinavians and Poles. When British are run through the same test display in this thread they score less HG. They have excess WHG ancestry(beyond what MN and Yamnaya can explain) and it could be because of what you suggest, but they don't have more than Scandinavians and Poles.

Actually the "WHG problem in the Middle East" is not out of the woods yet according to Basal-rich K7 D-Stats; despite the fact that Mesolithic Europeans were never in the Middleeast besides Turkey. According to Basal-Rich K7, the Neolithic Levant people were 70% Basal-Rich and 30% Villabruna.

Also the British averages have only a percent or two lower Euro HG ancestry than the Scandinavians and Poles; except the Sami.
British average: 56.7% Villabruna
Norwegian and Swedish average: 58% Villabruna
Polish average: 57.5% Villabruna
Sami average: 42.3% Villabruna



https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tFAa7oxWpcNN-OdMMjBdb4NeWKG7EkpKMzZJVW2_MME/htmlview

epoch
09-10-16, 22:52
I don't know of any evidence the British Isles have more Euro HG ancestry than Scandinavians and Poles. When British are run through the same test display in this thread they score less HG. They have excess WHG ancestry(beyond what MN and Yamnaya can explain) and it could be because of what you suggest, but they don't have more than Scandinavians and Poles.

Scottish as per original Lazardis ANE/WHG/EEF paper IIRC.

Fire Haired14
14-10-16, 22:23
nMonte results from a recent Global PCA made by Eurogenes. They're consistent with D-stats and ADMIXTURE. WHG/SHG ancestry beyond what Steppe and MN provides is about 20-30% in the region hunter gatherers persisted till 3000 BC and 5-10% where farmers dominated in 3000 BC.




Corded_Ware_Germany_Avg
Motala_HG_Avg
Esperstedt_MN:I0172
Loschbour:Loschbour
Villabruna:I9030
Karelia_HG:I0061
Salzmuende_MN:I0551
Baalberge_MN:I0559
Baalberge_MN:I0560
Nganasan
Chukchi



Saami
39
29.9
6.2
0
0
0
0
0
0
24.9
0
0.004023


Lithuanian
65.45
0.6
14.5
15.45
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0.006462


Finnish
49.6
26.2
18.15
0
0
0
0
0
0
6.05
0
0.003686


Ingrian
64.7
0
6.8
19.25
0
0
2.55
0
0
6
0
0.00568


Norwegian
63.85
0.75
28.25
4.95
2.2
0
0
0
0
0
0
0.003496


Polish
64.65
0
24.25
3.65
7.45
0
0
0
0
0
0
0.00341

arvistro
15-10-16, 17:15
Interesting, how they pick up Loshcbour or Motala.
Lithuanians show Loschbour, but Finns and Saami show Motala.
Ingrians (also FU folk, but close to Estonia) favor Loschbour again.

Poles however have Villabruna. Interesting.