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Maciamo
09-10-16, 18:26
I already made a map of J2b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#J2b) three years ago. Upon someone's request I have created this map of J2b1 based on the available data. Unfortunately there is very little data at the moment for J2b1 outside the Balkans and some parts of Italy. Most areas in grey actually have no data rather than <0.5%. If you have more information, I will of course update the map accordingly.

J2b1's TMRCA is 5500 ybp according to Yfull, and many common subclades in the Balkans are much younger than that - only about 1000 years old. We now know thanks to Broushaki et al. 2016 (http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943) that J2b originated in Neolithic Iran, and indeed J2b1 is particularly common today in Iran (2 to 5%) and is also found in Armenia, the Levant, Pakistan and India. This suggests that J2b1 has its roots around Iran, and arrived quite late to Europe, probably with some of the numerous peoples who invaded the Balkans from the Steppe (http://www.eupedia.com/history/5000_years_of_steppe_migrations_into_europe.shtml) , such as the Avars, Bulgars, Magyars, Khazars and other potential -ars. The presence of J2b1 around the Volga-Ural only strengthen this assumption.

The J2b1 in Greece, western Turkey, Italy, Mediterranean Spain and Libya more likely all spread from Greece. The highest frequency recorded so far is among Greek Cypriots (5.5%). It would have arrived with other J2 subclades straight from the South Caucasus or Levant. The question is when, since J2 was not brought by Neolithic farmers. The most likely time frame is the Late Bronze Age or Iron Age.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png

Milan
09-10-16, 18:52
I doubt that is from late steppe arrival considering that is present in western Anatolia,place never settled by those groups,in fact should be higher like in Pannonia(Hungary) for example where Avar base was or "Bulgar's" Bulgaria,also is that island Cyprus that green?Anyway thanks for the map.

A. Papadimitriou
09-10-16, 18:58
Where are the sources?

Twilight
09-10-16, 20:18
I already made a map of J2b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#J2b) three years ago. Upon someone's request I have created this map of J2b1 based on the available data. Unfortunately there is very little data at the moment for J2b1 outside the Balkans and some parts of Italy. Most areas in grey actually have no data rather than <0.5%. If you have more information, I will of course update the map accordingly.

J2b1's TMRCA is 5500 ybp according to Yfull, and many common subclades in the Balkans are much younger than that - only about 1000 years old. We now know thanks to Broushaki et al. 2016 (http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943) that J2b originated in Neolithic Iran, and indeed J2b1 is particularly common today in Iran (2 to 5%) and is also found in Armenia, the Levant, Pakistan and India. This suggests that J2b1 has its roots around Iran, and arrived quite late to Europe, probably with some of the numerous peoples who invaded the Balkans from the Steppe (http://www.eupedia.com/history/5000_years_of_steppe_migrations_into_europe.shtml) , such as the Avars, Bulgars, Magyars, Khazars and other potential -ars. The presence of J2b1 around the Volga-Ural only strengthen this assumption.

The J2b1 in Greece, western Turkey, Italy, Mediterranean Spain and Libya more likely all spread from Greece. The highest frequency recorded so far is among Greek Cypriots (5.5%). It would have arrived with other J2 subclades straight from the South Caucasus or Levant. The question is when, since J2 was not brought by Neolithic farmers. The most likely time frame is the Late Bronze Age or Iron Age.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png

Interesting, it appears that J2b1 shares some borders with national borders rendering the Ydna's expansion astonishly young and shares modern borders and rough Antiquity borders as well. Not sure what to make of this. You can see at least some Greek Colonies in Turkey and maybe Italy and SE Spain. You get a rough sketch of the Armenian Kingdom. A Rough border of Yugoslavia + Western Romania. J2b1 shares a border with Northern and Eastern Israel and as far as the Middle East is concerned J2b1 is amplified in the Nation of Iran.
Since there is a common ancestry dating to 5500 ybp, there must be a common source for J2b1 in Bronze Age antiquity.


Historical borders

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania#/media/File%3AMihai_1600.png

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia#/media/File%3AArmenian_Empire.png

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity#/media/File%3AAncient_colonies.PNG

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslavia

Nik
09-10-16, 22:02
This has got to be one of the most puzzling distributions ever.

Looking at the Balkans, I automatically thought of Sclavenes and whoever joined them. U can still justify the possibility of the later Slavs migrating to Italy, but its percentage it's just too high (even higher than in Albania). And how the hell did it get to Spain?

IMO it's got to be the Visigoths judging by the way it's distributed in Italy and Spain after being picked up somewhere in Eastern Europe and/or the Balkans.

Frontier1768
10-10-16, 06:05
First of all, thanks for map, Maciamo.


As we talk about haplogroup J2b-M205, I must say that I belong to this haplogroup and with few friends and Y-DNA cousins I tried to found more about this mysterious lineage. We investigate this haplogroup from 2013. and I think that we are most competent to talk about it.

For what we know today, haplogroup J2b-M205 probably originated from Fertile Crescent.
My opinion (based on ancient DNA, many research and haplogroup diversity) is that majority of J2b-M205 spread across the Europe with Greeks, Phoenicians and later with Roman/Byzantine colonization and troops from the Middle East.


I don't agree at all with Maciamo theory about steppe origin of "Balkanic branch" of J2b-M205. We can't just look on the map and create theory in our head based on one spot in Russia, we need further research.

"Balkanic branch" except on Balkans, have full or closest matches in Mediterranean area (Lebanon, Anatolia, Sicily, Emilia-Romagna, Catalonia).
Most typicall J2b-M205 population on Balkans are Serbs, who have at least two areas from where they spread across ex-Yugoslavia after Ottoman expansion:
1) Kričak region (northwestern Montenegro, around Pljevlja)
2) Šopluk region (border area of Serbia, Bulgaria and FYROM)

We have very intersting story about first region.
In Middle Ages that area was populated by members of Kriči tribe and according to historical sources and oral tradition, they have pre-Slavic origin (Thraco-Illyrian/Roman/Vlach amalgam). We can follow Kriči tribe in historical sources from middle of XIII century. There are few members of Kriči tribe that was tested and all of them belong to J2b-M205 haplogroup and "Balkanic branch". Intersting story is that Kriči tribe (J2b-M205) have many clashes with Drobnjaci tribe (I1-P109), and after defeat, big parts of Kriči tribe migrated to Bosnia and Military Frontier region (today we have few villages in Croatia and Bosnia with Kriči name and also we have big number of Croatian and Bosnian Serbs who belong to haplogroup J2b-M205).
Second region is not less important. We know from historical sources and oral tradition that in this area we have bigger number of pre-Slavic population then in other parts of northern Balkans. Majority of J2b-M205 from southeastern Serbia, Bulgaria and FYROM originated from this region.


Unfortunately, I can't post any links here, so if you guys are interested in this haplogroup, I can open thread about it. Also, you can join our facebook group ("J2b-M205").

Maciamo
10-10-16, 09:36
Where are the sources?

Here are the main sources:

- Uniparental Markers in Italy Reveal a Sex-Biased Genetic Structure and Different Historical Strata
- High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia
- Y chromosome STR polymorphisms in a Serbian population sample
- Human Y-chromosome short tandem repeats: a tale of acculturation and migrations as mechanisms for the diffusion of agriculture in the Balkan Peninsula
- Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe
- Allele frequencies and population data for 17 Y-chromosome STR loci in a Serbian population sample from Vojvodina province
- Croatian national reference Y-STR haplotype database
- Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry
- Population genetics of 17 Y-STR markers in Turkish Cypriots from Cyprus
- Turkish Cypriot paternal lineages bear an autochthonous character and closest resemblance to those from neighbouring Near Eastern populations
- Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements
- A global analysis of Y-chromosomal haplotype diversity for 23 STR loci
- Population genetics of 8 Y chromosome STR loci in Macedonians and Macedonian Romani
- Genetic sub-structure in western Mediterranean populations revealed by 12 Y-chromosome STR loci
- Population genetics of Y-chromosome STRs in a population of Northern Greeks
- Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic
-The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean
- The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily
- Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming an Egyptian descent
- Assembly of a large Y-STR haplotype database for the Czech population and investigation of its substructure
- Analysis of Y chromosome STR haplotypes in the European part of Russia reveals high diversities but non-significant genetic distances between populations
-H aplotype data and mutation rates for the 23 Y-STR loci of PowerPlex® Y 23 System in a Northeast Italian population sampleNeolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists
- Y-chromosome STR haplotype in Szekely population
- Geographical structure of the Y-chromosomal genetic landscape of the Levant: a coastal-inland contrast

Arame
10-10-16, 10:12
5.9% of Armenians from Iran are J2b1. Grugni et al.
Iran Armenians are mostly from Nakhichevan.

Hauteville
10-10-16, 11:06
A page with informations about this Haplogroup

https://www.facebook.com/HaplogroupJ2b1M205YDNA/?fref=ts

Hauteville
10-10-16, 11:08
Tofanelli 2015 (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/full/ejhg2015124a.html)

Veselinovic 2014 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23729201)

Boattini 2013 (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441)

Rodriguez 2009 (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00414-008-0302-y)

Bosch 2006 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16759179)

Hi Maciamo, I suggest you this other study for better further informations about South Italy and Sicily.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

Maciamo
10-10-16, 11:46
Hi Maciamo, I suggest you this other study for better further informations about South Italy and Sicily.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

But they did separate J2b1 from J2b2, so the data is unless for this map.

Twilight
10-10-16, 13:46
First of all, thanks for map, Maciamo.


As we talk about haplogroup J2b-M205, I must say that I belong to this haplogroup and with few friends and Y-DNA cousins I tried to found more about this mysterious lineage. We investigate this haplogroup from 2013. and I think that we are most competent to talk about it.

For what we know today, haplogroup J2b-M205 probably originated from Fertile Crescent.
My opinion (based on ancient DNA, many research and haplogroup diversity) is that majority of J2b-M205 spread across the Europe with Greeks, Phoenicians and later with Roman/Byzantine colonization and troops from the Middle East.


I don't agree at all with Maciamo theory about steppe origin of "Balkanic branch" of J2b-M205. We can't just look on the map and create theory in our head based on one spot in Russia, we need further research.

"Balkanic branch" except on Balkans, have full or closest matches in Mediterranean area (Lebanon, Anatolia, Sicily, Emilia-Romagna, Catalonia).
Most typicall J2b-M205 population on Balkans are Serbs, who have at least two areas from where they spread across ex-Yugoslavia after Ottoman expansion:
1) Kričak region (northwestern Montenegro, around Pljevlja)
2) Šopluk region (border area of Serbia, Bulgaria and FYROM)

We have very intersting story about first region.
In Middle Ages that area was populated by members of Kriči tribe and according to historical sources and oral tradition, they have pre-Slavic origin (Thraco-Illyrian/Roman/Vlach amalgam). We can follow Kriči tribe in historical sources from middle of XIII century. There are few members of Kriči tribe that was tested and all of them belong to J2b-M205 haplogroup and "Balkanic branch". Intersting story is that Kriči tribe (J2b-M205) have many clashes with Drobnjaci tribe (I1-P109), and after defeat, big parts of Kriči tribe migrated to Bosnia and Military Frontier region (today we have few villages in Croatia and Bosnia with Kriči name and also we have big number of Croatian and Bosnian Serbs who belong to haplogroup J2b-M205).
Second region is not less important. We know from historical sources and oral tradition that in this area we have bigger number of pre-Slavic population then in other parts of northern Balkans. Majority of J2b-M205 from southeastern Serbia, Bulgaria and FYROM originated from this region.


Unfortunately, I can't post any links here, so if you guys are interested in this haplogroup, I can open thread about it. Also, you can join our facebook group ("J2b-M205").
Welcome to Eupedia Frointier1768, yes please I'd love to get a fresh perspective of this Haplogroup J2b-M205. Although since the Krici tribe are from an era as late as the Middle Ages, I gotta wonder. How many Krici tribal members from the Middle Ages have you Ydna tested? The Pre-Slavic people; according to current genetic studies during the Bronze Age were Ydna E-V13, I2a and G2a with incoming R1a and R1b tribes infiltrating the area. On the other hand the Pre-Italic Terramare Culture was Ydna E-V13, J2b, G2a and I2a with a huge wave of R1b-U152 coming in a little later. If the Krici tribe were from the Middle Ages, I would expect them to be of more than one Haplogroup and the tribe would assimilate some Haplogroups; different from J2b-M205. A direct Decent from the Fertile Cresent would render J2b-M205 from either Mesopotamia or Anatolia.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#middle_bronze_age

DuPidh
10-10-16, 13:54
First of all, thanks for map, Maciamo.


As we talk about haplogroup J2b-M205, I must say that I belong to this haplogroup and with few friends and Y-DNA cousins I tried to found more about this mysterious lineage. We investigate this haplogroup from 2013. and I think that we are most competent to talk about it.

For what we know today, haplogroup J2b-M205 probably originated from Fertile Crescent.
My opinion (based on ancient DNA, many research and haplogroup diversity) is that majority of J2b-M205 spread across the Europe with Greeks, Phoenicians and later with Roman/Byzantine colonization and troops from the Middle East.


I don't agree at all with Maciamo theory about steppe origin of "Balkanic branch" of J2b-M205. We can't just look on the map and create theory in our head based on one spot in Russia, we need further research.

"Balkanic branch" except on Balkans, have full or closest matches in Mediterranean area (Lebanon, Anatolia, Sicily, Emilia-Romagna, Catalonia).
Most typicall J2b-M205 population on Balkans are Serbs, who have at least two areas from where they spread across ex-Yugoslavia after Ottoman expansion:
1) Kričak region (northwestern Montenegro, around Pljevlja)
2) Šopluk region (border area of Serbia, Bulgaria and FYROM)

We have very intersting story about first region.
In Middle Ages that area was populated by members of Kriči tribe and according to historical sources and oral tradition, they have pre-Slavic origin (Thraco-Illyrian/Roman/Vlach amalgam). We can follow Kriči tribe in historical sources from middle of XIII century. There are few members of Kriči tribe that was tested and all of them belong to J2b-M205 haplogroup and "Balkanic branch". Intersting story is that Kriči tribe (J2b-M205) have many clashes with Drobnjaci tribe (I1-P109), and after defeat, big parts of Kriči tribe migrated to Bosnia and Military Frontier region (today we have few villages in Croatia and Bosnia with Kriči name and also we have big number of Croatian and Bosnian Serbs who belong to haplogroup J2b-M205).
Second region is not less important. We know from historical sources and oral tradition that in this area we have bigger number of pre-Slavic population then in other parts of northern Balkans. Majority of J2b-M205 from southeastern Serbia, Bulgaria and FYROM originated from this region.


Unfortunately, I can't post any links here, so if you guys are interested in this haplogroup, I can open thread about it. Also, you can join our facebook group ("J2b-M205").


Its of Iranian origin! There is archaeological proof that Persians (Iranians) have been present in the territory of Greece long before the written history existed. One such evidence is Mycenaean civilization. That civilization had an alphabet that researchers have closely linked with Persian alphabet. So its very much possible the early inhabitants of Mycenae where Persians (j2b1) which they later spread through the region.

Angela
10-10-16, 14:20
Actually, we have a J2 in Sopot and Lengyel at the transition from middle to late Neolithic.

We don't know the subclade, but those results do indicate that some form of J2 had indeed arrived in Europe during the Neolithic. My hunch, and that's all it is, would be that it's J2b, not J2a.

We discussed it here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31364-Hg-J2-M172-middle-late-neolithic-Hungary-(Sopot-Lengyel-Culture)

There's an interesting discussion here, which addresses the theory that there was a second wave of the Neolithic from Anatolia which might have brought these new lineages.
http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com/2015/06/ancient-dna-from-carpathian-basin-5700.html

I think there's something to it.

Hauteville
10-10-16, 18:22
But they did separate J2b1 from J2b2, so the data is unless for this map.
Ah sorry, anyway it will be good for other maps i think.

Frontier1768
12-10-16, 04:38
Welcome to Eupedia Frointier1768, yes please I'd love to get a fresh perspective of this Haplogroup J2b-M205. Although since the Krici tribe are from an era as late as the Middle Ages, I gotta wonder. How many Krici tribal members from the Middle Ages have you Ydna tested? The Pre-Slavic people; according to current genetic studies during the Bronze Age were Ydna E-V13, I2a and G2a with incoming R1a and R1b tribes infiltrating the area. On the other hand the Pre-Italic Terramare Culture was Ydna E-V13, J2b, G2a and I2a with a huge wave of R1b-U152 coming in a little later. If the Krici tribe were from the Middle Ages, I would expect them to be of more than one Haplogroup and the tribe would assimilate some Haplogroups; different from J2b-M205. A direct Decent from the Fertile Cresent would render J2b-M205 from either Mesopotamia or Anatolia.


Thanks, Twilight.
I'm glad that other people, who don't belong to our haplogroup, shows interest about it.

We tested few guys from Kriči tribal area (Kričak, northwestern Montenegro) and few guys who have oral tradition about origin from Kriči tribe (one of them has surname Krička and he originated from Kričke village in Dalmatia, and according to tradition that village was founded by refugees from Kriči tribal area).

Biggest problem about Kriči tribe is that they were first overrun by Drobnjaci tribe (I1-P109), after that Ottomans conquered that area, and today they not exist as organized tribe, so we must look for families who have oral tradition about origin from them, families from their ex-tribal area, families with similar surnames (Kričak, Krička, Kričkić, Kričković).

Frontier1768
12-10-16, 04:55
Actually, we have a J2 in Sopot and Lengyel at the transition from middle to late Neolithic.

We don't know the subclade, but those results do indicate that some form of J2 had indeed arrived in Europe during the Neolithic. My hunch, and that's all it is, would be that it's J2b, not J2a.


Yes, we have J2 in Langyel and Sopot cultures.
I think that I read somewhere that both of these are J2a, but I'm not sure.

When we talking about ancient DNA, we have 2 confirmed J2b-M205 (Jordan, Early Bronze Age; England, Roman period).

Maciamo
12-10-16, 06:56
Actually, we have a J2 in Sopot and Lengyel at the transition from middle to late Neolithic.

We don't know the subclade, but those results do indicate that some form of J2 had indeed arrived in Europe during the Neolithic. My hunch, and that's all it is, would be that it's J2b, not J2a.

We discussed it here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31364-Hg-J2-M172-middle-late-neolithic-Hungary-(Sopot-Lengyel-Culture)

There's an interesting discussion here, which addresses the theory that there was a second wave of the Neolithic from Anatolia which might have brought these new lineages.
http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com/2015/06/ancient-dna-from-carpathian-basin-5700.html

I think there's something to it.

I know, but that's a single J2 among hundreds of non-J2 Neolithic lineages. There was also a J2a in Barcın, who IMO was an Anatolian Mesolithic HG assimilated by Neolithic farmers, considering the low J2 frequency overall among Neolithic farmers in Europe, Anatolia and the Levant.

There was also a J2b sample from Pre-Pottery Neolithic Iran, and that points at a more eastern origin for J2b. I had already mentioned in several threads and on the J2 page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#J2b) for the last 3 years that J2b2 moved to the Steppe and integrated PIE society before the PIE migrations, as J2b2 has a distribution paralleling those of R1a1a and R1b-M269. I have now been able to determine that J2b2 moved across the Caucasus and went to the Volga-Ural region during the Neolithic, possibly bringing along some mt-haplogroups J1c, T2 and W (e.g. W3 and W6). As a minor lineage within the R1a-Z93 dominant populations, it would have expanded from the Volga-Ural region to Central and South Asia with the Indo-Aryan invasions. Nowadays, J2b2 is very common in the Volga-Ural region, but also at low frequencies all over Central and South Asia, the Middle East, as well as East and Central Europe, just like Y-haplogroup R1a.

Maciamo
12-10-16, 07:03
Yes, we have J2 in Langyel and Sopot cultures.
I think that I read somewhere that both of these are J2a, but I'm not sure.

When we talking about ancient DNA, we have 2 confirmed J2b-M205 (Jordan, Early Bronze Age; England, Roman period).

It's not 'these'. There is only one J2 in Sopot (which is a pre-Lengyel culture). I am not aware of any J2 in Lengyel itself. Let's also note that this J2 sample was part of a doctoral thesis, and that the only other Y-DNA reported was E-M78. I find it somewhat surprising that the only two Neolithic Y-haplogroups from this student thesis happen to be two haplogroups that haven't been found by any 'professional' study among one hundred Neolithic Y-DNA samples. Modern contamination cannot be ruled out.

The J2b in Roman Britain was autosomally from the south Levant, so related to the Bronze Age Jordan sample.

A. Papadimitriou
12-10-16, 07:57
The J2b1 in Greece, western Turkey, Italy, Mediterranean Spain and Libya more likely all spread from Greece. The highest frequency recorded so far is among Greek Cypriots (5.5%). It would have arrived with other J2 subclades straight from the South Caucasus or Levant. The question is when, since J2 was not brought by Neolithic farmers. The most likely time frame is the Late Bronze Age or Iron Age.


That part didn't exist in the original post and also the map was different (especially in Italy) because the creator of the map wanted to present the haplogroup as 'Avar', 'Bulgar' etc

Trojet
12-10-16, 21:24
I know, but that's a single J2 among hundreds of non-J2 Neolithic lineages. There was also a J2a in Barcın, who IMO was an Anatolian Mesolithic HG assimilated by Neolithic farmers, considering the low J2 frequency overall among Neolithic farmers in Europe, Anatolia and the Levant.

There was also a J2b sample from Pre-Pottery Neolithic Iran, and that points at a more eastern origin for J2b. I had already mentioned in several threads and on the J2 page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#J2b) for the last 3 years that J2b2 moved to the Steppe and integrated PIE society before the PIE migrations, as J2b2 has a distribution paralleling those of R1a1a and R1b-M269. I have now been able to determine that J2b2 moved across the Caucasus and went to the Volga-Ural region during the Neolithic, possibly bringing along some mt-haplogroups J1c, T2 and W (e.g. W3 and W6). As a minor lineage within the R1a-Z93 dominant populations, it would have expanded from the Volga-Ural region to Central and South Asia with the Indo-Aryan invasions. Nowadays, J2b2 is very common in the Volga-Ural region, but also at low frequencies all over Central and South Asia, the Middle East, as well as East and Central Europe, just like Y-haplogroup R1a.

Yes, there was two late Neolithic J2's in Sopot and Lengyel (Hungary). At the time they were not tested downstream of J2-M172, so their subclades are unknown. My guess is that they both are more likely to turn out J2a.


Regarding J2b2a-M241, your analysis seems to be all wrong! Just because you see a spot of it in Volga region, it doesn't mean it was spread from the Steppe to South Asia and Europe.
J2b2a-M241 split in early Neolithic to J2b2a-L283 (Balkans/Europe) and J2b2a-Z2432 (South Asia): https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

All indications are that the Neolithic split was somewhere in the area of Western Iran to Caucasus with Z2432 expanding into South Asia during the Neolithic. As you can see the South Asian Z2432 branch has a TMRCA of ~7100 ybp, which is much earlier than Indo-Aryan expansion to the area.

The harder question at this point is when the 'European' L283 branch (TMRCA 5900 ybp) arrived to SE Europe. It seems most likely it was in the period between the Chalcolithic to Early Bronze Age. This is reinforced by the fact that RISE408 LBA Armenia was tested as J2b2a-L283>Z600 (xZ627), which is en early split of L283. The more likely migration was from Armenia/Anatolia to SE Europe through northern Anatolia, or even straight through the Black Sea would be possible. I suppose L283 could've gone north through the Caucuses to the Steppe and became part of BA expansion to SE Europe, but it seems unlikely at this point. Also the Volga-Ural J2b2a-L283 belongs all under J-Y12000 and has a TMRCA of 1600 ybp, as you can see on the bottom of L283 YFull tree.

Goga
13-10-16, 00:15
All indications are that the Neolithic split was somewhere in the area of Western Iran to Caucasus with Z2432 expanding into South Asia during the Neolithic. As you can see the South Asian Z2432 branch has a TMRCA of ~7100 ybp, which is much earlier than Indo-Aryan expansion to the area.
According to this tree the split between Vedic and Iranic occured 5000 years ago. It is possible that South Asian Z2432 migrated into the Northern India around that time. Contemporary to the Yamnaya Culture. Vedic was born in Northern India and when that language came into existence, many Y-DNA lineages migrated into Northern India from Iran at that time, including South Asian Z2432 and R1a-Z93, J2a etc.

https://s9.postimg.org/5yad368kt/2011_MCCtree_width_Cognate_Rate.jpg



proto-Vedic and proto-Iranic are VERY ancient languages. Much older than you may think. About the same age as Yamnaya Culture.

ukaj
13-10-16, 11:03
Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming an Egyptian descent. J2b-M241 or E-V13.. both haplogroups are over-represented in Albanian and Greek population respectively, and are associated with a Neolithic or even Mesolithic Balkans.I thought j2 was a med halopgroup

ukaj
13-10-16, 11:10
Thanks, Twilight.
I'm glad that other people, who don't belong to our haplogroup, shows interest about it.

We tested few guys from Kriči tribal area (Kričak, northwestern Montenegro) and few guys who have oral tradition about origin from Kriči tribe (one of them has surname Krička and he originated from Kričke village in Dalmatia, and according to tradition that village was founded by refugees from Kriči tribal area).

Biggest problem about Kriči tribe is that they were first overrun by Drobnjaci tribe (I1-P109), after that Ottomans conquered that area, and today they not exist as organized tribe, so we must look for families who have oral tradition about origin from them, families from their ex-tribal area, families with similar surnames (Kričak, Krička, Kričkić, Kričković). Are you from montenegro if you dont mind me asking?If so could you possiably tell me what tribe you hail from thanks.

Twilight
14-10-16, 02:44
It's not 'these'. There is only one J2 in Sopot (which is a pre-Lengyel culture). I am not aware of any J2 in Lengyel itself. Let's also note that this J2 sample was part of a doctoral thesis, and that the only other Y-DNA reported was E-M78. I find it somewhat surprising that the only two Neolithic Y-haplogroups from this student thesis happen to be two haplogroups that haven't been found by any 'professional' study among one hundred Neolithic Y-DNA samples. Modern contamination cannot be ruled out.

The J2b in Roman Britain was autosomally from the south Levant, so related to the Bronze Age Jordan sample.

you're welcome Frointier :)


According to the History of Jordan, the pre-roman population was populated by the Ammonites, the Moabites and the Edomites. All of these tribes had connections to the Hebrew language. How to you suppose Hebrew speaking people dominated Britannia's minority Roman Immigrants?

Were the Jandani/Isreali immigrants to Brittania Missionaries, Legionaries, Farmers or a little bit of all?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jordan

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Levant

Hauteville
14-10-16, 11:31
There are not neolithic and copper age J2 (except Sopot who is important for my theory) because we have not aDNA from neolithic, copper age and early bronze age from Italy and Balkans where J2 made an important percentage of modern population. Thinking that this Y-Chromosome is introduced in historical times is a nonsense in my opinion. When we have more samples from Mediterranean Europe we can take more accurate conclusions.

Frontier1768
15-10-16, 04:13
Are you from montenegro if you dont mind me asking?If so could you possiably tell me what tribe you hail from thanks.

No, I'm Croatian Serb, but my brotherhood originated from northwestern Montenegro.

Mercurial
23-01-17, 16:12
Hello everyone. I am J2b1-M205 from Leskovac, Serbia. My ancestors were living in Novo Selo near Grdelica for a long time.

Cip
31-01-17, 16:10
In 700 BC in Transilvania came a Scythian-iranian tribe called Agathyrsi:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathyrsi
They were assimilated by dacians in a few centuries. The Agathyrsi area coincide with the J2b1 higher concentration in Transilvania that we can see in this map.
The Kriči tribe seem to be a preslavic population from Montenegro:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kri%C4%8Di
Their older origin is from West Transilvania - Crișana Region - name coming from the 3 rivers called Criș
http://www.incogniterra.org/pages/img/regions/Crisana2.jpg
In the region of Agathyrsi in Transilvania there are a lot of Iranian names exaclty like in Iran. Zarand Mountains (In Iran and in Transilvania), Carand (Transilvania)- Karand (Iran), Abrud(Transilvania)- Abrud (Iran).
Pottery found in Agathyrsi sites is exactly like iranian from the same time.
That means there was a fast migration tribe from Iran through North of Black see to Romania- more exactly Transilvania. They must of carryed this J2b1.
From Transilvania it must have spread to Balkans. But I believe it must have been also other wawe of iranian J2b1 that spreed it to Greece , Italy and Mediterana.

Maciamo
16-05-17, 15:08
Yes, there was two late Neolithic J2's in Sopot and Lengyel (Hungary). At the time they were not tested downstream of J2-M172, so their subclades are unknown. My guess is that they both are more likely to turn out J2a.


Regarding J2b2a-M241, your analysis seems to be all wrong! Just because you see a spot of it in Volga region, it doesn't mean it was spread from the Steppe to South Asia and Europe.
J2b2a-M241 split in early Neolithic to J2b2a-L283 (Balkans/Europe) and J2b2a-Z2432 (South Asia): https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

All indications are that the Neolithic split was somewhere in the area of Western Iran to Caucasus with Z2432 expanding into South Asia during the Neolithic. As you can see the South Asian Z2432 branch has a TMRCA of ~7100 ybp, which is much earlier than Indo-Aryan expansion to the area.

The harder question at this point is when the 'European' L283 branch (TMRCA 5900 ybp) arrived to SE Europe. It seems most likely it was in the period between the Chalcolithic to Early Bronze Age. This is reinforced by the fact that RISE408 LBA Armenia was tested as J2b2a-L283>Z600 (xZ627), which is en early split of L283. The more likely migration was from Armenia/Anatolia to SE Europe through northern Anatolia, or even straight through the Black Sea would be possible. I suppose L283 could've gone north through the Caucuses to the Steppe and became part of BA expansion to SE Europe, but it seems unlikely at this point. Also the Volga-Ural J2b2a-L283 belongs all under J-Y12000 and has a TMRCA of 1600 ybp, as you can see on the bottom of L283 YFull tree.

Sorry, I did not notice this post until today.

You are right that J2b2 split in two branches in the Neolithic. However it certainly did not come to the Balkans/Europe during the Neolithic. There have been hundreds of Neolithic European samples tested to date and J2b has never been among them. So far the first sample of J2b2a-L283 in Europe is from the Late Bronze Age in Croatia, and it did have about 30% of Steppe admixture + 15% of EHG, so it probably would have arrived recently from Eastern Europe.

I agree that the Z2432 branch might have headed straight from Iran to South Asia during the Neolithic. But it could just as well have moved to Central Asia and have been picked up by the Indo-Iranians later on. There is just no enough data from Central Asia at present to know how much of it is L283 and how much is Z2432. What is sure is that there is also some L283 in India as well as Armenia and Lebanon (all three belonging to the Z628 subclade with a TMRCA of 4400 ybp at Yfull) , so L283 must have an IE connection from the northern Steppe/Volga-Ural region, where the Indo-Iranian originated.

IronSide
16-05-17, 15:19
Sorry, I did not notice this post until today.

You are right that J2b2 split in two branches in the Neolithic. However it certainly did not come to the Balkans/Europe during the Neolithic. There have been hundreds of Neolithic European samples tested to date and J2b has never been among them. So far the first sample of J2b2a-L283 in Europe is from the Late Bronze Age in Croatia, and it did have about 30% of Steppe admixture + 15% of EHG, so it probably would have arrived recently from Eastern Europe.

I agree that the Z2432 branch might have headed straight from Iran to South Asia during the Neolithic. But it could just as well have moved to Central Asia and have been picked up by the Indo-Iranians later on. There is just no enough data from Central Asia at present to know how much of it is L283 and how much is Z2432. What is sure is that there is also some L283 in India as well as Armenia and Lebanon (all three belonging to the Z628 subclade with a TMRCA of 4400 ybp at Yfull) , so L283 must have an IE connection from the northern Steppe/Volga-Ural region, where the Indo-Iranian originated.

L283 in India indeed supports an IE origin, but I'm wondering, how much Alexander the great's conquests and the numerous kingdoms of his successors would spread Greek and other Balkan haplogroups in Iran and south Asia ? one way to resolve this is to test deep clades.

Angela
16-05-17, 15:54
Well, his mother was mtDna I1a1, which might account for the steppe percentage? Of course, the mtDna and yDna might have traveled together.

I don't know whether it went from the Caucasus or Anatolia to the steppe and then to Europe, but if the Volga samples are younger than the Balkan samples, how is that proof of that hypothesis?

Trojet
16-05-17, 23:27
Sorry, I did not notice this post until today.

You are right that J2b2 split in two branches in the Neolithic. However it certainly did not come to the Balkans/Europe during the Neolithic. There have been hundreds of Neolithic European samples tested to date and J2b has never been among them. So far the first sample of J2b2a-L283 in Europe is from the Late Bronze Age in Croatia, and it did have about 30% of Steppe admixture + 15% of EHG, so it probably would have arrived recently from Eastern Europe.

I agree that the Z2432 branch might have headed straight from Iran to South Asia during the Neolithic. But it could just as well have moved to Central Asia and have been picked up by the Indo-Iranians later on. There is just no enough data from Central Asia at present to know how much of it is L283 and how much is Z2432. What is sure is that there is also some L283 in India as well as Armenia and Lebanon (all three belonging to the Z628 subclade with a TMRCA of 4400 ybp at Yfull) , so L283 must have an IE connection from the northern Steppe/Volga-Ural region, where the Indo-Iranian originated.

There is not any significant J2b2-L283 in India. In fact, there is only one person that I know of from India who is L283>>Z628+ (who ultimately may or may not be of European origin), everyone else is under J2b2-Z2432.
I do agree with the rest for the most part. However, as I have mentioned here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34078-J2b-as-an-IE-lineages-of-the-ancient-Illyrians-Mycenaeans?p=508699&viewfull=1#post508699) the present Volga/Ural J2b2 is not an evidence that L283 came from the Steppe, as you have suggested (even though I agree that it eventually​ most likely migrated from that direction).


So far the first sample of J2b2a-L283 in Europe is from the Late Bronze Age in Croatia, and it did have about 30% of Steppe admixture + 15% of EHG, so it probably would have arrived recently from Eastern Europe.

Early to Middle Bronze Age, as it is from 1700-1500 BCE.

Apsurdistan
17-05-17, 00:58
L283 in India indeed supports an IE origin, but I'm wondering, how much Alexander the great's conquests and the numerous kingdoms of his successors would spread Greek and other Balkan haplogroups in Iran and south Asia ? one way to resolve this is to test deep clades.

I'm wondering about that too.

Apsurdistan
17-05-17, 01:17
Thanks, Twilight.
I'm glad that other people, who don't belong to our haplogroup, shows interest about it.

We tested few guys from Kriči tribal area (Kričak, northwestern Montenegro) and few guys who have oral tradition about origin from Kriči tribe (one of them has surname Krička and he originated from Kričke village in Dalmatia, and according to tradition that village was founded by refugees from Kriči tribal area).

Biggest problem about Kriči tribe is that they were first overrun by Drobnjaci tribe (I1-P109), after that Ottomans conquered that area, and today they not exist as organized tribe, so we must look for families who have oral tradition about origin from them, families from their ex-tribal area, families with similar surnames (Kričak, Krička, Kričkić, Kričković).

Interesting, maybe my hg has some connection to this tribe.

DuPidh
17-05-17, 01:35
L283 in India indeed supports an IE origin, but I'm wondering, how much Alexander the great's conquests and the numerous kingdoms of his successors would spread Greek and other Balkan haplogroups in Iran and south Asia ? one way to resolve this is to test deep clades.

Alexander the Great theory is overblown. First of all Alexander in India stood for few months at most, and Alexanders Dna footprint in India is Zero. Turks stood 500 years in Greece and still they barely left 15% of their genes for so long time in general Greek population.

Apsurdistan
17-05-17, 02:19
While we're on the subject of Alexander The Great. It's kinda interesting that Makedonija has the Mak which means in Serbo-Croatian Bosnian whatever Poppy so Poppy seeds = Mak
Macedonian word for poppy is Afion... Afganistan?
The Greek word for poppy is Paparouna

Did any fancy linguist academics notice this interesting connection...

A. Papadimitriou
17-05-17, 03:08
While we're on the subject of Alexander The Great. It's kinda interesting that Makedonija has the Mak which means in Serbo-Croatian Bosnian whatever Poppy so Poppy seeds = Mak
Macedonian word for poppy is Afion... Afganistan?
The Greek word for poppy is Paparouna

Did any fancy linguist academics notice this interesting connection...


In ancient Greek it is μήκων (Αttic), μάκων (Doric) (~mekon - ~makon)

(In general Doric / NW Greek seems to be closer to Proto-Greek)

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dm h%2Fkwn&highlight=mh/kwn

The modern Greek word comes from Latin maybe through Aromanian (?).

Irrespective of the connection you tried to make it's interesting that a cognate of an Homeric word survives in Slavic languages. [Interestingly Hungarian too if Google Translate doesn't lie]

Concerning the rest in modern Greek there is a word αφιόνι (~afjoni) too (suppodedly with Greek origin (opos), it probably came here again as an Arabic loan to Turkic) and means poppy / opium but it is less commonly used.

Apsurdistan
17-05-17, 03:23
In ancient Greek it is μήκων (Αttic), μάκων (Doric) (~mekon - ~makon)

(In general Doric / NW Greek seems to be closer to Proto-Greek)

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dm h%2Fkwn&highlight=mh/kwn

The modern Greek word comes from Latin maybe through Aromanian (?).

Irrespective of the connection you tried to make it's interesting that a cognate of an Homeric word survives in Slavic languages. [Interestingly Hungarian too if Google Translate doesn't lie]

Concerning the rest in modern Greek there is a word αφιόνι (~afjoni) too (suppodedly with IE root from Hellenistic Greek through Arabic and Turkic) and means poppy / opium but it is less commonly used.

Not sure what to make out of this, I tend to not jump to conclusions and just dive into all sorts of theories like some people do, I like concrete evidence and logic before I believe in something. But this is indeed very interesting, maybe proto-greeks have South Slavic roots. Of course that's not a popular idea cuz the mainstream narrative (mainly in the west) is that South Slavs migrate to the Balkans in the 6th or whatever century as Avar slaves while the Ilyrians vanish.

A. Papadimitriou
17-05-17, 03:44
Not sure what to make out of this, I tend to not jump to conclusions and just dive into all sorts of theories like some people do, I like concrete evidence and logic before I believe in something. But this is indeed very interesting, maybe proto-greeks have South Slavic roots. Of course that's not a popular idea cuz the mainstream narrative (mainly in the west) is that South Slavs migrate to the Balkans in the 6th or whatever century as Avar slaves while the Ilyrians vanish.

The easy solution is to say the word was 'Paleo-Balkanic' or something.

Western and not western scholars have biases. When a medieval Greek text talks about some Sclavenes coming from the 'Western Ocean' the western scholar thinks the Baltic Sea which can be correct but I thought that if the geographical knowledge of the author was that bad maybe he could have called the Adriatic as 'the Western Ocean'(?)

Apsurdistan
17-05-17, 04:00
Yeah I don't take them too seriously or some allegedly medieval texts. Stories people tell does not automatically=fact either.
But that's just me I'm very skeptical of BS but some people like it.

Hauteville
17-05-17, 08:54
J2b in Balkan Bronze Age by the way and a J2 in Austrian LBK.

LABERIA
17-05-17, 09:44
The easy solution is to say the word was 'Paleo-Balkanic' or something.

Western and not western scholars have biases. When a medieval Greek text talks about some Sclavenes coming from the 'Western Ocean' the western scholar thinks the Baltic Sea which can be correct but I thought that if the geographical knowledge of the author was that bad maybe he could have called the Adriatic as 'the Western Ocean'(?)

Maybe. But first we have to decide about the existence or not of this Sclavenes, because the last studies deny their existence.

LABERIA
17-05-17, 10:55
While we're on the subject of Alexander The Great. It's kinda interesting that Makedonija has the Mak which means in Serbo-Croatian Bosnian whatever Poppy so Poppy seeds = Mak
Macedonian word for poppy is Afion... Afganistan?
The Greek word for poppy is Paparouna

Did any fancy linguist academics notice this interesting connection...










There are no scholars who deal with this kind of interpretation, because it's a speculation. There are no connections between ancient Macedonian language and the slavic language of serbs, croats or bosnians.
I can make a very logic connection between the word Emathia and Macedon and i can explain it in Albanian language. But this are just personal observations. If you ask any average Albanian, he can make this explanation. But not necessarily every logical explanation is the real truth. This things are complicated.

Maciamo
17-05-17, 10:57
L283 in India indeed supports an IE origin, but I'm wondering, how much Alexander the great's conquests and the numerous kingdoms of his successors would spread Greek and other Balkan haplogroups in Iran and south Asia ? one way to resolve this is to test deep clades.

Alexander's army never reached India proper, only Pakistan, and they didn't stay long (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_campaign_of_Alexander_the_Great) (326 to 325 BCE), not long enough to have a noticeable genetic impact with only 15,000 soldiers, who were defeated and hurried back to West Asia.

Sakattack
17-05-17, 11:24
Off topic

"The name Macedonia (Greek: Μακεδονία, Mak edonía) comes from the ethnonym Μακεδόνες (Makedónes), which itself is derived from the ancient Greek adjective μακεδνός (makednós), meaning "tall", possibly descriptive of the people. It also shares the same root as the noun μάκρος (mákros), meaning "length" in both ancient and modern Greek. The name is originally believed to have meant either "highlanders", "the tall ones", or "high grown men".Robert S. P. Beekes supports the idea that both terms are of Pre-Greek substrate origin and cannot be explained in terms of Indo-European morphology."

The term comes from Greek. But if we look for the source and according to Beeks we possibly may have to dig deep into Paleobalkan languages (seems legit).


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LABERIA
17-05-17, 11:37
Off topic

"The name Macedonia (Greek: Μακεδονία, Mak edonía) comes from the ethnonym Μακεδόνες (Makedónes), which itself is derived from the ancient Greek adjective μακεδνός (makednós), meaning "tall", possibly descriptive of the people. It also shares the same root as the noun μάκρος (mákros), meaning "length" in both ancient and modern Greek. The name is originally believed to have meant either "highlanders", "the tall ones", or "high grown men".Robert S. P. Beekes supports the idea that both terms are of Pre-Greek substrate origin and cannot be explained in terms of Indo-European morphology."

The term comes from Greek. But if we look for the source and according to Beeks we possibly may have to dig deep into Paleobalkan languages (seems legit).


Sent from my Robin using Tapatalk

And if Makedonian mean tall, in Albanian language before the standardization of the language I Math mean tall for men and E Mathe mean again tall for women. I said before the standardization of Albanian language, because today we use to say I Madh and E Madhe, but the elders continue to say E mathia or e mathija.

Sakattack
17-05-17, 11:54
Emathia is not related etymologically with Macedonia.

The region is even mention by Homer and the word is PIE derived. Means sandy land.

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Apsurdistan
17-05-17, 12:11
There are no scholars who deal with this kind of interpretation, because it's a speculation. There are no connections between ancient Macedonian language and the slavic language of serbs, croats or bosnians.
I can make a very logic connection between the word Emathia and Macedon and i can explain it in Albanian language. But this are just personal observations. If you ask any average Albanian, he can make this explanation. But not necessarily every logical explanation is the real truth. This things are complicated.

So you're saying no speculation is ever done by any scholars? That's like saying scientists never experiment things.
And you're also saying that truth is sometimes too complicated to be logical. So what is your point exactly?
You don't have to answer btw it's more a rhetorical question. I don't know if you're trying to suck me into some senseless debate but it won't work, as I said I have low patience and tolerance for that.
You believe whatever you want, and I'll believe what I want. The sooner you make peace with that the better trust me. Save yourself the time and energy.

And if you trust wikipedia it basically says not much is known about the ancient Macedonian language (no surprise there) and it's "speculated" that it might have been a variety of ancient Northwestern Greek dialects.

LABERIA
17-05-17, 18:46
So you're saying no speculation is ever done by any scholars? That's like saying scientists never experiment things.
And you're also saying that truth is sometimes too complicated to be logical. So what is your point exactly?
You don't have to answer btw it's more a rhetorical question. I don't know if you're trying to suck me into some senseless debate but it won't work, as I said I have low patience and tolerance for that.
You believe whatever you want, and I'll believe what I want. The sooner you make peace with that the better trust me. Save yourself the time and energy.

And if you trust wikipedia it basically says not much is known about the ancient Macedonian language (no surprise there) and it's "speculated" that it might have been a variety of ancient Northwestern Greek dialects.

Right, i will save my time and energy and i will answer you with a rhetorical question. What have to do Vuk Karadžić with this story?

IronSide
18-05-17, 16:35
Alexander's army never reached India proper, only Pakistan, and they didn't stay long (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_campaign_of_Alexander_the_Great) (326 to 325 BCE), not long enough to have a noticeable genetic impact with only 15,000 soldiers, who were defeated and hurried back to West Asia. If not the campaign of Alexander, which I agree didn't affect much, then what about the succeeding Indo-Greek kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom) which must have included some Greeks in it's population, maybe administrators and some soldiers.

a map of it's campaigns

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/IndoGreekCampaings.jpg/800px-IndoGreekCampaings.jpg

Even the E-V13 in Iran and Kurds I believe is of Greek origin, remnants from the Seleucid Empire, obviously they weren't the majority, but mainly political elites and some part of the military.