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Frontier1768
15-10-16, 05:30
I promised that I would open thread about haplogroup J2b-M205.

Few friends (Y-DNA cousins) and I tried to found more about this mysterious lineage, especially about "Balkanic branch".
We investigate this haplogroup from 2013. and I think that we know a little bit more about this haplogroup, then people who don't belong to it.

So, if you guys have any questions about this haplogroup, especially about "Balkanic branch", I will try to help you.
I'm unable to post links here for now, but soon I will post many interesting things about us (ancient DNA, maps, TMRCA calculations, story about former Kriči tribe).

Nik
15-10-16, 22:35
Among Albanians This haplogroup is associated with mountain tribes indicating an old local presence together with E-V13.

Ek Thom
15-10-16, 23:05
Hello

Have you any information about tmrca between "balkanic branch" and french and spanish j2b1m05

Best regards

Trojet
15-10-16, 23:45
Among Albanians This haplogroup is associated with mountain tribes indicating an old local presence together with E-V13.

Nik,
The thread Frontier1768 has opened is in regards to haplogroup J2b1-M205.

Albanian J2b is almost exclusively J2b2-M241>L283:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about/results

Not all J2b is the same ;)
J2b-M102 split into J2b1 and J2b2 about 15800 years ago and it wasn't in the Balkans: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M102/

However, J2b2-L283 has older TMRCAs in the Balkans (very similar to E-V13) which indicates a longer presence than J2b1-M205.

Frontier1768
16-10-16, 20:41
Among Albanians This haplogroup is associated with mountain tribes indicating an old local presence together with E-V13.

Nik, as Trojet said J2b1-M205 and J2b2-M241 are not the same.

Haplogroup J2b1-M205 have stronger presence on western and northern Balkans (Serbo-Croatian and western Bulgarian areas), while J2b2-M241 have stronger presence on southern and eastern Balkans (Greek, Albanian and eastern Bulgarian areas).


As we speak about Albanians and Albania, there are also few J2b1-M205:
1) we have two Albanians (one of them is from Tirana, Albania; we don't know origin of second guy) and one Vlach (from Andon Poci, Albania) from studies
2) we have two Albanians (one of them is from Bar area, Montenegro; second of them is from Zall-Bastar, Albania) from 23andMe, but we don't have their haplotypes
3) we have one Albanian (from Gnjilane area, Serbia) from FTDNA

First group have closest matches among Greeks, while third guy have closest matches with "Balkanic branch" (DYS392=12).


I agree with Trojet, I also think that J2b2-M241 have longest presence on Balkans then J2b1-M205.

Frontier1768
16-10-16, 20:46
Hello

Have you any information about tmrca between "balkanic branch" and french and spanish j2b1m05

Best regards

I can compare guys (67 and 111 markers) from "Balkanic branch" with French and Spanish, with "Nevski" calculator.

Nik
16-10-16, 23:24
You're right guys, sorry I got them confused.

Interestingly the the point I wanted to make remains the same since u mentioned that a Vlach from Albania belongs to it, as the Krici were definitely either a Vlach or Albanian tribe from Northern Montenegro just like many other tribes in the area as well as Herzegovina at that time. It's further evidence that J2b1-M205 and I2a-Din are both present in Vlachs, indicating a clearly non-Slavic origin but simply Northern Balkan relatively indigenous haplogroups.

My assumption has always been that these haplogroups were more numerous in Pannonia, Dacia and Northern Moesia and were pushed southward by the various attacks by Goths, Huns, Alans, etc. and finally Slavs, finding refuge in the Dinaric mountains.

Ek Thom
17-10-16, 22:32
So can you compare kit 221268 (ftdna) with balkanic branch in order to know the tmrca?



Thanks

Cip
20-10-16, 16:17
ok what would be the origin then?

Frontier1768
22-10-16, 05:17
You're right guys, sorry I got them confused.

Interestingly the the point I wanted to make remains the same since u mentioned that a Vlach from Albania belongs to it, as the Krici were definitely either a Vlach or Albanian tribe from Northern Montenegro just like many other tribes in the area as well as Herzegovina at that time. It's further evidence that J2b1-M205 and I2a-Din are both present in Vlachs, indicating a clearly non-Slavic origin but simply Northern Balkan relatively indigenous haplogroups.

My assumption has always been that these haplogroups were more numerous in Pannonia, Dacia and Northern Moesia and were pushed southward by the various attacks by Goths, Huns, Alans, etc. and finally Slavs, finding refuge in the Dinaric mountains.

Be careful with this "Vlach tribe" or "Albanian tribe".
We speak about Balkans in early Middle Ages, when we can make clear separation only of "Romans" (people of Roman empire) and "barbarians" (invaders).

Today, majority of "Balkanic branch" (J2b-M205) are located in the Northern Balkans, but we can find 90% full matches outside of Balkans, in Mediterranean area (Lebanon, Anatolia, Sicily, Emilia-Romagna, Catalonia), so it's most precise that we look at this as an Mediterranean branch (by origin, of course).

Frontier1768
22-10-16, 05:26
So can you compare kit 221268 (ftdna) with balkanic branch in order to know the tmrca?



Thanks

For precise TMRCA calculation I need at least 67 markers (best option is 111 markers, of course).

Frontier1768
22-10-16, 05:31
ok what would be the origin then?

From what we know today, haplogroup J2b-M205 probably originated from Fertile Crescent.

Frontier1768
22-10-16, 09:43
Finally I can post links, so let's get started with basic informations about our haplogroup.

J2b-M205 map
8131

J2b-M205 tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

J2b-M102 ancient DNA
http://j2-m172.info/2015/04/three-j2-found-at-merovingian-buriel-site-roman-frankish-transitional-period/
http://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogenous-roman-era-york-3drif-26-is-j2b1-m205-and-likely-middle-eastener/
http://j2-m172.info/2016/06/first-ancient-j2-from-iran-mesolithic-copper-age-and-levant-bronze-age-lazaridis-et-al-first-farmers/
http://j2-m172.info/2016/07/ancient-zagros-j2b-iran-abdul-hosein-early-neolithic-broushaki-et-al/

J2b-M205 Facebook group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1412747575409175/

Nik
22-10-16, 21:14
Be careful with this "Vlach tribe" or "Albanian tribe".
We speak about Balkans in early Middle Ages, when we can make clear separation only of "Romans" (people of Roman empire) and "barbarians" (invaders).

Today, majority of "Balkanic branch" (J2b-M205) are located in the Northern Balkans, but we can find 90% full matches outside of Balkans, in Mediterranean area (Lebanon, Anatolia, Sicily, Emilia-Romagna, Catalonia), so it's most precise that we look at this as an Mediterranean branch (by origin, of course).
And as a Mediterranean branch it cannot be Slavic but indigenous to the Balkans. That's all I meant.

Frontier1768
22-10-16, 23:55
And as a Mediterranean branch it cannot be Slavic but indigenous to the Balkans. That's all I meant.

From what we know today, it can't be Germanic or Slavic (by origin) for sure.
We have plenty of studies for Germanic and Northern Slavic countries, and I think that J2b-M205 can be found above 1% only at few islolated spots (example: Wroclaw, but only 1/100).

Ek Thom
23-10-16, 15:48
Where is the balkanic branch on the yfull\tree\j-m205?

Frontier1768
23-10-16, 16:01
Where is the balkanic branch on the yfull\tree\j-m205?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/

Ek Thom
23-10-16, 22:56
thanks
i only watched : tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1

and i didnt see anything

Frontier1768
26-10-16, 15:38
"Balkanic branch" of J2b-M205

- "YFull" tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/

- TMRCA ("Nevski" calculator)
8137
Батоћанин - Batoćanin (Serbia; FTDNA kit: E20746)
Биљански - Bilyanski (Bulgaria; FTDNA kit: N116487)
Демић - Demić (Croatia; FTDNA kit: 330489)
Лакић - Lakić (Bosnia and Herzegovina; FTDNA kit: N93380)
Милутиновић - Milutinović (Serbia; FTDNA kit: E9599)
Мркобрад - Mrkobrad (Serbia; FTDNA kit: 348847)
Новаковић - Novaković (Bosnia and Herzegovina; FTDNA kit: 275214)
Стојановић - Stojanović (Serbia; FTDNA kit: N71653)
Чирко - Čirko (Bosnia and Herzegovina; FTDNA kit: N86479)

Frontier1768
29-10-16, 22:42
J2b-M205 structure

https://s13.postimg.org/asqlgy087/J2b1_M205_research_tree_2016_11a.png

http://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possibly-j2b1-m205-basal-structure-defined-cts1969-cts5338-yp13-ph4306-ph1089-y22066/

mobileacc200
18-12-16, 05:39
(from Gnjilane area, Serbia)


Since when is Gjilane Serbia, i though that you guys need passports to go over there?