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andresasj
17-10-16, 19:20
I heard on some internet forums that the inhabitants of North Africa are white because of other haplogroups present in their blood as I, R and J, and not because of haplogroup E1b1b. It's true?

DuPidh
17-10-16, 20:04
I heard on some internet forums that the inhabitants of North Africa are white because of other haplogroups present in their blood as I, R and J, and not because of haplogroup E1b1b. It's true?

I am amateur in this science but what I have read from the debates here, in Eupedia, is that, major factor in someones race is MtDna. Ydna represent 2% of ones Dna and it does not effect someones race, but it does effect the appearance like height and other physical traits. Example Russians and Indians are majority R1a but they are no way near racially. Or there are R1b people in subSaharan Africa but their are not even slightly white, nor they look like Germans who are majority R1b. North Africans are Caucasian which is wider term than white. If a North African goes to England he or she would not be considered white but wog, whatever that means, or if they go to USA they will be considered Meddle Eastern which is another term for not white.

Maleth
17-10-16, 20:41
I heard on some internet forums that the inhabitants of North Africa are white because of other haplogroups present in their blood as I, R and J, and not because of haplogroup E1b1b. It's true?

Hello andresasj. How are you keeping? :). Nobody talks anymore with I,R,J,G,E and so on these days. The are all split in scores of subgroups separated with thousands of years, surprising origins and incredible journeys, different modes of survival and some breeding with Neanderthals adopting to extreme environments and surviving on different food sources. Do not rely on debates on forums for your education but read more solid evidence. Its complicated and can be over whelming. Nothing about Human journeys can be explained in a few sentences. ;)

Angela
17-10-16, 20:56
MtDna is also a very small part of someone's total dna. Both mtDna and yDna represent only one person each out of one's ancestors. Autosomal dna is much more informative.

The average North African is about 15-20% SSA. However, that's an average. There are some North Africans, usually from isolated groups, who have less than that, and some, particularly from southern regions, who have more.

andresasj
17-10-16, 21:09
Hello andresasj. How are you keeping? :). Nobody talks anymore with I,R,J,G,E and so on these days. The are all split in scores of subgroups separated with thousands of years, surprising origins and incredible journeys, different modes of survival and some breeding with Neanderthals adopting to extreme environments and surviving on different food sources. Do not rely on debates on forums for your education but read more solid evidence. Its complicated and can be over whelming. Nothing about Human journeys can be explained in a few sentences. ;)

You Do not Understand What do I said. When I mentioned the haplogroups I also included the subhaplogroupos them and not only H, I, J pure. OK?

MarkoZ
17-10-16, 23:08
What is your definition of 'black'? The Natufians, who are the most likely ancestors of European E1b1b, definitely had very dark skin.

Wanderlust
17-10-16, 23:23
What is your definition of 'black'? The Natufians, who are the most likely ancestors of European E1b1b, definitely had very dark skin.

Good question--it proves that "race," which is a social construct and not a biological one, has no place in science.

Nik
18-10-16, 00:09
I heard on some internet forums that the inhabitants of North Africa are white because of other haplogroups present in their blood as I, R and J, and not because of haplogroup E1b1b. It's true?
The early Europeans that belonged to haplogroup I had also dark skin. It was most probably the same case with R while it was still in the Middle East, and of course J.

Maleth
18-10-16, 08:35
You Do not Understand What do I said. When I mentioned the haplogroups I also included the subhaplogroupos them and not only H, I, J pure. OK?

OKay :grin:



The early Europeans that belonged to haplogroup I had also dark skin. It was most probably the same case with R while it was still in the Middle East, and of course J.

Indeed Nik. And the lighter pigmentation seems only to start taking effect some 10,000 /15,000 years ago, some contributed to lack of sun (weather and clothing) others to Vitamin D depleted diets some think its both. It seems that these changes happen on anyone with any haplogroup (or more importantly as Angela stated.....general Autosmal) depending on climatic and diet.

Runofmillsukrainian
31-07-17, 18:36
E1B1B1 is of Levant origin, E1B1A is East African. These 2 haplogroups cover ancient Israelites

LeBrok
31-07-17, 19:20
E1B1B1 is of Levant origin, E1B1A is East African. These 2 haplogroups cover ancient IsraelitesI see KingSlav is back teaching us about population genetics again.

Sneakysalami69
01-08-17, 03:32
E1B1B1 is of Levant origin, E1B1A is East African. These 2 haplogroups cover ancient Israelites

There is few good docs on youtube with regards to this topic.

Ideophagous
25-08-17, 14:40
I heard on some internet forums that the inhabitants of North Africa are white because of other haplogroups present in their blood as I, R and J, and not because of haplogroup E1b1b. It's true?

E1b1b is quite prevalent in Morocco (more than 80%), but typical Moroccans are brown-skinned, with some individuals having darker or lighter skin. I don't think the skin tone or color has much or anything to do with Y-haplogroups.

Ideophagous
25-08-17, 14:49
North Africans are Caucasian which is wider term than white. If a North African goes to England he or she would not be considered white but wog, whatever that means, or if they go to USA they will be considered Meddle Eastern which is another term for not white.

Again, there are a few of us Moroccans (or North Africans in general) who could easily blend among Europeans. You will find individuals with very light skin, hair and eye color, especially among some descendants of Moriscos who were expelled from Iberia (many of which settled in the city of Fes), and in the North of Morocco among Rif Amazigh/Berber people.
But the typical Moroccan/North African is brown-skinned as I said, and might pass for a Middle Eastern (though if you pay enough attention, you could more or less easily distinguish the facial features of North Africans from those of Middle Easterners, especially inhabitants of Arabia). I've been assumed to be Latin American or Indian by many people though.

Jesse Elliott
04-09-17, 02:36
Skin color is a part of the picture but features are what is in question. N. Africans, especially ancient ones are classified as caucasoid not negroid. Although tis is apparently still hotly debated.

Angela
04-09-17, 18:43
I think we're going to discover, as with the ancient Egyptians, that the majority of the SSA is since the Arab conquest and the subsequent slave trade, although there may be a few percent present in the older samples.

Parafarne
07-09-17, 15:34
I heard on some internet forums that the inhabitants of North Africa are white because of other haplogroups present in their blood as I, R and J, and not because of haplogroup E1b1b. It's true?

Yes andresasj it's true, during early neolithic they mixed with J in Levant and became racially Levantine, then under very strange circumstances thogather with J they migrated to Balkans nobody knows how? so more research is needed to get migratory maps and time!

Parafarne
07-09-17, 15:40
E1b1b's gradient in the maps shows in Levant its 24% in Palestine, 17% Lebanon, 14% Syria, 10% Turkey so it should have been say 4% in extreme southern greece NATURALLY, but instead it jumps to 24% and yes I know! different subclades are responsible in different regions but it does not explain why there's more in Balkans than in Turkey. Migrators of E1b1b must have passed all those regions(Levant) in order to get to Europe ,which seems very implausable because of settled tribes in Levant would have not let them to bypass their countries so its very mysterious.

SIMORIAS
11-09-17, 13:34
E1b1b's gradient in the maps shows in Levant its 24% in Palestine, 17% Lebanon, 14% Syria, 10% Turkey so it should have been say 4% in extreme southern greece NATURALLY, but instead it jumps to 24% and yes I know! different subclades are responsible in different regions but it does not explain why there's more in Balkans than in Turkey. Migrators of E1b1b must have passed all those regions(Levant) in order to get to Europe ,which seems very implausable because of settled tribes in Levant would have not let them to bypass their countries so its very mysterious.

There's that thing called the founder effect, it explains the high percentage of E1b1b in the Balcan, also we can't rely on percentages of a specific haplogroup in a region because it change with migration of other haplogroups to the same region.

Yaan
11-09-17, 18:50
E1b1b in Europe is 90% of the European E-V13, while in the Middle East it is a completely different kind E-M123 and E-V22 and in North Africa is E-M81 and E1b is not Black not even a bit, E1a is( if it had anything to do with skin) :) Male haplogroup has nothing to do at all with the way you look, you could be B and look like Son of Odin or I1 and look like well like the rapper Nas ( he is I1 BTW) :)

Angela
11-09-17, 18:59
E1b1b in Europe is 90% of the European E-V13, while in the Middle East it is a completely different kind E-M123 and E-V22 and in North Africa is E-M81 and E1b is not Black not even a bit, E1a is( if it had anything to do with skin) :) Male haplogroup has nothing to do at all with the way you look, you could be B and look like Son of Odin or I1 and look like well like the rapper Nas ( he is I1 BTW) :)

You're exactly right, so I don't know why anyone would even be bringing this up at this late date.

O Neill
11-09-17, 19:52
If i suspect my uncle is E1b1b and want to find out. would i be better off going with 23andme or FTDNA ?
hes on ancestry.com only thus far. Or is there a better company for east african DNA ?
Thanks

LeBrok
11-09-17, 21:58
If i suspect my uncle is E1b1b and want to find out. would i be better off going with 23andme or FTDNA ?
hes on ancestry.com only thus far. Or is there a better company for east african DNA ?
Thanks Is your uncle from Africa, or his ancestors within 6 generations? Remember that Y DNA is only 2% of whole DNA. Plus, E1b1b is not necessarily African in origin, it's been found in Near East 16 kya in Natufian culture of first farmers. Before that we can only speculate.

ROS
11-09-17, 23:50
E1b1b can be light skin, blond and with blue or green eyes, or black skin with curly hair, it is said to be 2% of DNA but has a very determining characteristic its permanence in time in the patrilineal part, something similar happens with the mitochondrial DNA in the matrilineal part, it is that simple and I think that more solid than the labeling movement of the autosomic DNA easily manipulable, time will tell.

There is also a taboo with North Africa, despite the fact that there are important cultural differences, for example in Morocco was bell-shaped culture, belonged to the Roman Empire, had Germanic invasions, is 13 km from the Iberian peninsula, I do not say that it belongs or not to Europe, but that they are close and should not be taboo.



Indeed, with the importance of the bell-shaped culture that is practically said to have been the diffuser of the Indo-European languages, little is said in these forums of this bell-shaped culture in northern Africa, although only as a culture and not as a genetic influence, that that only occurred in the center and north of Europe, as we are told.

spruithean
12-09-17, 00:02
I heard on some internet forums that the inhabitants of North Africa are white because of other haplogroups present in their blood as I, R and J, and not because of haplogroup E1b1b. It's true?

Y-DNA and mtDNA have nothing to do with your physical appearance. That is dictated by your autosomal DNA.

ROS
12-09-17, 00:21
Autosomico changes with the weather.

At first we were all black.

LeBrok
12-09-17, 01:01
Autosomico changes with the weather. Seems like you use Google translate. Do you mean, that Autosomal DNA slowly evolves to fit environment, which includes climatic zones?


At first we were all black.Yes, there is a little doubt that first homo sapiens were black and developed in Africa.

ROS
12-09-17, 01:22
Seems like you use Google translate. Do you mean, that Autosomal DNA slowly evolves to fit environment, which includes climatic zones?

Yes, there is a little doubt that first homo sapiens were black and developed in Africa.
Autosomico changes rapidly compared to halpgrupo Y, in Europe there is a tremendous climatic variation, as well as solar radiation, the British islands for example, they receive little sun, because the days are shorter, because it is almost always cloudy, because they are more at north and the sun rays are more inclined, however in the Iberian peninsula where the days are longer it hardly rains for the most part, I think this is what most affects the autosomal DNA, it is curious that the clearest people chose the north of Europe to live, will not be the other way around ?, living in northern Europe and becoming clearer.


And the same thing happens with Europe in general, Europe long populated to have undergone an adaptation (mutations) to the climate of the north of euro and a daptacin (mutations) to the climate of the south of europe, of simple.


As far as where the Indo-European language came to be, I think it will never be known, at the moment the only certain thing is that in certain places old texts exist in which a language belonging to this family was spoken, but nothing more.

O Neill
12-09-17, 19:47
Is your uncle from Africa, or his ancestors within 6 generations? Remember that Y DNA is only 2% of whole DNA. Plus, E1b1b is not necessarily African in origin, it's been found in Near East 16 kya in Natufian culture of first farmers. Before that we can only speculate.
I should have said that my great grandfather was born in east africa, and i wanted to find out if his ydna is very typical of were he came from or not. because i did find something in my research that said his line may have started with a guy from either portugal or the middle east.
So i want to get into this a little bit

Jovialis
12-09-17, 20:13
In regards to pigmentation, this is what Insitome has to say about it:


Humans evolved in Africa, the most tropical continent on Earth. When your ancestors lost their primate fur and moved out onto the African savannas, their skin was exposed to a tremendous amount of sunlight. In order to survive this assault from damaging solar radiation, their skin became darker through the production of melanin. This is the ancestral state for our species — every person alive 200,000 years ago had darkly pigmented skin, like sub-Saharan Africans today. During our migration out of the tropics into Eurasia beginning 60,000 years ago, we lost some of this pigmentation as an adaptation to the lower sun intensity at higher latitudes. It turns out that sunlight is necessary for the deeper layers of your skin to produce vitamin D — without this critical nutrient your bones become weak and brittle, and your ancestors’ diets didn’t include much of it. Mutations that reduced the amount of pigmentation in the skin of people living in northern latitudes were advantageous, and became widespread. One of the genes regulating pigmentation is melanocortin receptor 1, or MC1R. Modern humans have several mutations in this gene that are associated with fair or red hair and lighter skin, and it appears that your Neanderthal cousins had similar (but unique) changes in the MC1R gene. One of these Neanderthal MC1R variants was introduced into modern human population when humans interbred with Neanderthals, and the advantage it conferred to its carriers caused it to increase in frequency, such that today is widespread in modern non-African populations, particularly in East Asians and Native Americans. Another gene responsible for regulating pigmentation is oculocutaneous albinism 2, or OCA2. It is also associated with fair or red hair and lighter skin and like MC1R has a unique Neanderthal version. Today, OCA2 is widespread in modern Eurasian populations, particularly in East Asia.

Pigmentation depends upon the genes MC1R, or OCA2.

Edit: Further materials regarding genes that dictate pigmentation, and sun damage repair:

Pigmentation

MC1R
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/MC1R

OCA2
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/OCA2

//

Sun Damage Repair

C4orf45
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/152940


IFRD2
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/7866


NAT6
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/24142


ZYMND10
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3738835/


SEMA3B
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/7869


HYAL2
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/8692


HYAL1
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/3373


RASSF1
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/11186


CYB561D2
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/11068


NPRL2
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/10641


TUSC2
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/11334


//

Angela
12-09-17, 20:34
In regards to pigmentation, this is what Insitome has to say about it:



Pigmentation depends upon the genes MC1R, or OCA2.

Edit: Further materials regarding genes that dictate pigmentation, and sun damage repair:

Pigmentation

MC1R
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/MC1R

OCA2
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/OCA2

//

Sun Damage Repair

C4orf45
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/152940


IFRD2
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/7866


NAT6
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/24142


ZYMND10
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3738835/


SEMA3B
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/7869


HYAL2
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/8692


HYAL1
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/3373


RASSF1
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/11186


CYB561D2
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/11068


NPRL2
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/10641


TUSC2
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene/11334


//

Jovialis,

We have lots of threads on pigmentation if you're interested. Just use the search engine. The two most important are SLC 24A5 and SLC 45A2 derived.

Interestingly, I just read that a paper will be coming out that has found some ancestral SLC 24A5 in, I think, the San. I also remember reading that SSA people right around the equator have selected for more melanin. I suppose that means that perhaps the people who left Africa might have been more San like in pigmentation, but that would need a lot more study and ancient samples from Africa, which may never be available given how hard it is to get ancient dna there. Still, by American standards, the San are still "black" even if not literally black skinned.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6e/a1/b7/6ea1b76cee748930fbd359626fcc63ba.jpg

LeBrok
12-09-17, 21:04
I should have said that my great grandfather was born in east africa, and i wanted to find out if his ydna is very typical of were he came from or not. because i did find something in my research that said his line may have started with a guy from either portugal or the middle east.
So i want to get into this a little bit I see. East Africa is rich in this haplogroup, though for me it is more likely that it moved to Africa from Near East with Neolithic Farmers, Bronze Age conquerors and Arab Conquests. So it could have Levant/Afro-Asiatic origin, not Black African. However, we have to wait for ancient samples from East Africa to be certain. We have not much yet.
Having said that, it is not seldom to see Black or Brown Africans from East Africa with E1b1b, or R1b from Central Africa. People move and mix, you know. ;)

Jovialis
12-09-17, 21:06
Jovialis,

We have lots of threads on pigmentation if you're interested. Just use the search engine. The two most important are SLC 24A5 and SLC 45A2 derived.

Interestingly, I just read that a paper will be coming out that has found some ancestral SLC 24A5 in, I think, the San. I also remember reading that SSA people right around the equator have selected for more melanin. I suppose that means that perhaps the people who left Africa might have been more San like in pigmentation, but that would need a lot more study and ancient samples from Africa, which may never be available given how hard it is to get ancient dna there. Still, by American standards, the San are still "black" even if not literally black skinned.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6e/a1/b7/6ea1b76cee748930fbd359626fcc63ba.jpg

That's probably the case, considering the darker pigmentation arose after pre-humans lost fur. It would have probably been closer to that skin tone, and then became even darker for the people that stayed behind near the equator in Africa over time.

LeBrok
12-09-17, 21:14
That's probably the case, considering the darker pigmentation arose after pre-humans lost fur. It would have probably been closer to that skin tone, and then became even darker for the people that stayed behind near the equator in Africa over time. Our ape cousins supposedly have pink skin under their fur. As you said, brown and black colour developed after we lost fur, mainly for skin cancer protection.

ROS
12-09-17, 22:41
Suppose that a current population of Morocco of about 20,000 people E1B1B and Halogrupo gather and move to Siberia, what years do they need to change their autosomic tags? or the phenotype? I understand that not a long time, however would still be E1B1B ?, I insist and I have already said I am not an expert in genetics, simply an amateur who likes the topics covered in these forums.Adapting to extreme cold, extreme heat, lack of light, etc., I consider them to be natural and at the same time brutal processes, since individuals who do not adapt do not survive, then there are a number of civilization issues such as invention of agriculture, which I understand had an impressive impact on the autosomical DNA, agriculture changed everything, I do not know whether by migrations of farmers from the fertile crescent or cultural transmission to neighbors and these to their neighbors and so progressively, the cultural transmission of agriculture by itself without emigration, only cultural transmission I think the genetic impact was brutal.I think that agriculture was transmitted culturally as I do not see a mass of people from the Middle East moving to the Iberian peninsula.Rather they learned to cultivate and these impacted on the DNA.To live in Europe for homo sapiens to be something terrible needing the Neardental to achieve it, as it has been said previously that, I had no knowledge and I find it surprising.Even a Spanish speaker can write in English through google may over time also have its autosomal impact, well this is a joke ... or not.

Jovialis
16-09-17, 00:13
I think another thing to consider about the Sans people and West Africans are their admixture with other ancient Hominds.
For example, inter-mixture with Homo Erectus, and possibly Homo Naledi. Just like the way Neanderthal has influenced the appearance of Eurasians; I think so too have other hominids influenced Africans.

I know Homo Naledi was discovered near south Africa. The Sans are from south Africa as well.
https://i.imgur.com/S2HYE81m.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MA5riHwm.jpg​

Coriolan
16-09-17, 07:38
Our ape cousins supposedly have pink skin under their fur. As you said, brown and black colour developed after we lost fur, mainly for skin cancer protection.
Gorillas and bonobos have black skin and both live in the equatorial region. Chimps have either white/pink or dark skin and live further north.

Coriolan
16-09-17, 07:45
Jovialis,

We have lots of threads on pigmentation if you're interested. Just use the search engine. The two most important are SLC 24A5 and SLC 45A2 derived.

Interestingly, I just read that a paper will be coming out that has found some ancestral SLC 24A5 in, I think, the San. I also remember reading that SSA people right around the equator have selected for more melanin. I suppose that means that perhaps the people who left Africa might have been more San like in pigmentation, but that would need a lot more study and ancient samples from Africa, which may never be available given how hard it is to get ancient dna there. Still, by American standards, the San are still "black" even if not literally black skinned.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6e/a1/b7/6ea1b76cee748930fbd359626fcc63ba.jpg
The San woman in this picture looks almost like a dark East Asian, like in some Burmese tribes. The slanted eyes are found in some but not all San people. I wonder if that trait was found in the ancestral Homo sapiens before they left Africa and that genetic drift kept it only in East Asians.

ratchet_fan
27-06-20, 21:32
The San woman in this picture looks almost like a dark East Asian, like in some Burmese tribes. The slanted eyes are found in some but not all San people. I wonder if that trait was found in the ancestral Homo sapiens before they left Africa and that genetic drift kept it only in East Asians.

EDAR is a recent mutation.

Also do we know if E was born in a SSA african population or does E predate the split between Africans and Eurasians and the branch found in Eurasians originated in a population that was something basal to basal eurasians like some people have hypothesized?

kingjohn
27-06-20, 23:14
This thread remind
Me the days of the stupid site
Apricity....
Is e1b1b1 caucasoid white ?
Lol😅
E1b1b and e1b1a splitt long time
Ago ...
And than e1b1b1 splitt even farther
To other branches... e- m78
and e-m123 and e-m81...
But yes the point of start of E1b1b
Was in ethiopia horn area....

P.s
It is very likely that the E tribes spread in west
And south africa
They reduced the number of the paleo-african haplogroups : A and B
Today we see them in pockets 🤔

ratchet_fan
27-06-20, 23:32
This thread remind
Me the days of the stupid site
Apricity....
Is e1b1b1 caucasoid white ?
Lol😅
E1b1b and e1b1a splitt long time
Ago ...
And than e1b1b1 splitt even farther
To other branches... e- m78
and e-m123 and e-m81...
But yes the point of start of E1b1b
Was in ethiopia horn area....
P.s
It is very likely that the E tribes spread in west
And south africa
They reduced the number of the paleo-african haplogroups : A and B
Today we see them in pockets 🤔

It doesn't matter given how old E is. I'm just curious if the split between E1b1b and e1b1a predates the split between Africans and Eurasians (basal?). I'm curious what haplogroup basal eurasian belonged to.

kingjohn
27-06-20, 23:55
It doesn't matter given how old E is. I'm just curious if the split between E1b1b and e1b1a predates the split between Africans and Eurasians (basal?). I'm curious what haplogroup basal eurasian belonged to.
I think no one realy knows
Not davidski( which is intrested more in the steppe)
And not even researcher lazaridis... :thinking:
P.s
Like you i hope to know soon :smile:

ratchet_fan
28-06-20, 02:00
I think no one realy knows
Not davidski( which is intrested more in the steppe)
And not even researcher lazaridis... :thinking:
P.s
Like you i hope to know soon :smile:

E is the only lineage that makes sense as basal eurasian but I would wonder then how basal got into the Caucasus and Iran.

Regio X
28-06-20, 04:23
@ratchet_fan

Check this out:
Massive "Basal Eurasian" back-migration
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/06/02/massive-basal-eurasian-back-migration/


(https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.01.127555v1.full.pdf)

kingjohn
28-06-20, 12:31
E is the only lineage that makes sense as basal eurasian but I would wonder then how basal got into the Caucasus and Iran.
What about some form of y haplogroup j ?
It was found in chg also in iran neolithic and iran mesolitic....
That could explain the basal ancestery in caucasus....:thinking:
and j could spread this ancestery to north africa by some back migration...:thinking:

Progon
28-06-20, 12:39
It's neither black, but neither white. E1b1b is strictly tied to ANA which was a component quite different from SSA and quite different from Eurasian. We have anthropological data from people who had excessive ANA and looked very different from SSA. They were taller on average than both SSA and Eurasians, and more robust.

ratchet_fan
28-06-20, 13:43
What about some form of y haplogroup j ?
It was found in chg also in iran neolithic and iran mesolitic....
That could explain the basal ancestery in caucasus....:thinking:
and j could spread this ancestery to north africa by some back migration...:thinking:

I don't know. IJ seems like the most West Eurasian haplogroup there.

ratchet_fan
28-06-20, 13:45
It's neither black, but neither white. E1b1b is strictly tied to ANA which was a component quite different from SSA and quite different from Eurasian. We have anthropological data from people who had excessive ANA and looked very different from SSA. They were taller on average than both SSA and Eurasians, and more robust.

That's very interesting. Do ANA form a clade with either SSA or Eurasians(Basal or otherwise)? You have a link to the anthropological data? Were the Iberomasurians ANA+West Eurasian then? Interesting that that's not how I would describe North Africans at all.

ratchet_fan
28-06-20, 14:51
How did ancient E carriers like Taforalt acquire SSA ancestry?

Jovialis
28-06-20, 18:33
I'm looking for the thread, but I believe one study proposed that E developed in West Asia, possibly linked to Basal Eurasian, and went on to replace haplogroups in areas where it is prevalent today.

kmak
28-06-20, 18:49
Every people is black. black is not race but represent african(mostly south and central) ancestry more recently.

Ygorcs
28-06-20, 20:34
It is very likely that the E tribes spread in west
And south africa
They reduced the number of the paleo-african haplogroups : A and B
Today we see them in pockets ������

Why do you think so? The fact E split from D, found virtually exclusively in Eurasia, and some basal E1b1b and E1b1a are found in small frequencies in East Africa, I always thought an origin in East Africa or at the furthest South-East Africa was more likely.

Ygorcs
28-06-20, 20:39
That's very interesting. Do ANA form a clade with either SSA or Eurasians(Basal or otherwise)? You have a link to the anthropological data? Were the Iberomasurians ANA+West Eurasian then? Interesting that that's not how I would describe North Africans at all.

IIRC the best model of Iberomaurusians done by Lazaridis et all. in the Dzudzuana Cave paper indicated that ANA split from most SSA (I assume apart from Mbuti-related and Khoisan-related peoples, of course) after the non-African split, but before the further splits of the African part of humankind that remained in the continent. So, it was closer to SSA, but not by much.

Modern North Africans have only a minority of Iberomaurusian-related admixture: very little in Egypt and Libya, and generally ~15-35% in the Maghreb (those who have the most of it are some Moroccan Berbers, like those of Tiznit, and the Saharawi). Maghrebis also have a lot of Anatolian Neolithic Farmer (ANF) like Europeans as well as smaller bits of Natufian-related, CHG/Iran_N and SSA ancestry.

Progon
28-06-20, 20:54
IIRC the best model of Iberomaurusians done by Lazaridis et all. in the Dzudzuana Cave paper indicated that ANA split from most SSA (I assume apart from Mbuti-related and Khoisan-related peoples, of course) after the non-African split, but before the further splits of the African part of humankind that remained in the continent. So, it was closer to SSA, but not by much.

Modern North Africans have only a minority of Iberomaurusian-related admixture: very little in Egypt and Libya, and generally ~15-35% in the Maghreb (those who have the most of it are some Moroccan Berbers, like those of Tiznit, and the Saharawi). Maghrebis also have a lot of Anatolian Neolithic Farmer (ANF) like Europeans as well as smaller bits of Natufian-related, CHG/Iran_N and SSA ancestry.

Ygor, i think you are wrong. This is the tree from Dzudzuana paper, and ANA, Basal Eurasian and Crown Eurasian split from a common ancestor, ANA being the first to split then Basal Eurasian and Crown Eurasian.

https://i.imgur.com/mgK6wM5.jpg

kingjohn
28-06-20, 21:32
Why do you think so? The fact E split from D, found virtually exclusively in Eurasia, and some basal E1b1b and E1b1a are found in small frequencies in East Africa, I always thought an origin in East Africa or at the furthest South-East Africa was more likely.


It didn't splitt from D it share
Common ancestor with D
The common ancestor called DE ....

anyway E probably originated in africa
And more specific e1b1b1 probably in the horn of africa ethiopia/somalia

P.s
No one know for sure where...

ratchet_fan
28-06-20, 21:47
IIRC the best model of Iberomaurusians done by Lazaridis et all. in the Dzudzuana Cave paper indicated that ANA split from most SSA (I assume apart from Mbuti-related and Khoisan-related peoples, of course) after the non-African split, but before the further splits of the African part of humankind that remained in the continent. So, it was closer to SSA, but not by much.

Modern North Africans have only a minority of Iberomaurusian-related admixture: very little in Egypt and Libya, and generally ~15-35% in the Maghreb (those who have the most of it are some Moroccan Berbers, like those of Tiznit, and the Saharawi). Maghrebis also have a lot of Anatolian Neolithic Farmer (ANF) like Europeans as well as smaller bits of Natufian-related, CHG/Iran_N and SSA ancestry.

Are Iberomasurians fully ANA?

ratchet_fan
28-06-20, 21:49
Ygor, i think you are wrong. This is the tree from Dzudzuana paper, and ANA, Basal Eurasian and Crown Eurasian split from a common ancestor, ANA being the first to split then Basal Eurasian and Crown Eurasian.

https://i.imgur.com/mgK6wM5.jpg


That would make it closer to Eurasians.

Progon
28-06-20, 21:52
That would make it closer to Eurasians.

But they were different. This sample is a Paleolithic/Mesolithic Hunter Gatherer from Egypt. He was quite robust like the Iberomaurusians, so i think his Y-DNA might be E-M35/E-M78 and probably his autosomal hypothetically would be mostly ANA.

https://i.imgur.com/th38jVK.jpg

real expert
28-06-20, 22:28
The ancestor of E1b1b is E1b1 that very likely came from the Horn of Africa/Ethiopia but it could be very well from North Africa, the Middle east, Arabia. Plus the haplogroup alone doesn‘t tell the whole story about the ethnicity or race. E is a very archaic hp that emerged aorund the time of the Out of Africa migration where the different races were not developed yet. So is futile to pinpoint or attribute the base hp E to any specific region or population/ethnicity.The subclade sometimes correlates with ethnicity, though and therefore give us valuable hints about the ethnicity of certain people/population. Furthermore, the genes of the original carriers of a

certain haplogroup can be diluted or breed out to the point where they disappear from the gene pool of the descendants that still carry the hp. Therefore, you can have technically an Eurasian or African hp while totally lacking the Eurasian or African component. With that being said most carriers of E1b1b are indeed either fully Caucasiod or part Eurasian.

real expert
28-06-20, 22:35
Autosomico changes with the weather.

At first we were all black.

Here‘s the thing even old school anthropologists never determined race by skin color alone, but by the combination of skull shape, facial features, bone structure, hair texture, teeth, etc. It‘s the liberal leftists who claim that race is only skin deep and that pretend that the difference between the races is only the color of the skin and nothing else. Besides, dark skin doesn‘t equal black Africans by default. For instance, Natufians that carrierd the hp E1b1b l were like the WHGs Western Eurasian aka Caucasiods. I don‘t know whether scientists performed the phenotypic analyses on Natufians to predict their skin colour. However, I assume that they lacked the genes for light skin of MODERN Europeans. So it can be concluded that the Natufians like theWHGs were likely dark. How exalty dark the Natufians or WHGs were the scientists can‘t really predict. Keep in mind that a slightly tanned, light brown, yellowish skin tone is compared to the white skin of modern Europeans, already dark skin. We have also to take into account that an archaic population like the Natufians or WHGs could have carried other unknown genes that produce light skin too. By the way, the term "black" or "black people" is a pretty useless term when dealing with genetics.

real expert
28-06-20, 22:46
Good question--it proves that "race," which is a social construct and not a biological one, has no place in science.




Can you please stop with parroting this PC Matra and dogma that "race or gender is a social construct". Race is real. Hence the liberal denial of it has no place in science. The only social construct about race is the claim that it's a social construct. There is a biological structure in humans. Genetically speaking a Yoruba can never be confused for an Australian Aborigine or a Swede for a Chinese or a Pgymy for a Native American. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging the existence of race. Denying race as if it‘s a bad thing is actually the real racism here. We should celebrate diversity by denying it? Is racism only wrong because there is not such a thing as race? Would be racism right and good if race did exist? Racism is wrong not because race isn‘t real, but because hating and dehumanizing other human beings who look different is wrong and immoral. Christianity believes that ALL humans, male or female have a human diginity since they were created in the image of God. Hence this God given dignity shouldn‘t be violated by hatred or dehumanization.

ratchet_fan
28-06-20, 23:03
But they were different. This sample is a Paleolithic/Mesolithic Hunter Gatherer from Egypt. He was quite robust like the Iberomaurusians, so i think his Y-DNA might be E-M35/E-M78 and probably his autosomal hypothetically would be mostly ANA.

https://i.imgur.com/th38jVK.jpg

I agree. But still closer to Eurasians than Africans. Plus these people were absorbed by Eurasians not Africans anyways.

Also that guy is ridiculously robust. Wow. Impressive.