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View Full Version : Ancient DNA: south-western Iberian Middle Neolithic population at the Bom Santo Cave



Alpenjager
18-10-16, 07:32
Bom Santo is a Neolithic burial cave located in the eastern slope of the Montejunto Mountain, ca. 50 km north of Lisbon, in the Estremadura province of central Portugal.

The mtDNA results (5300-5800 BP):

Local individuals: U5b, K1a2a1

Migrant individuals: T2b, J, HV0, H10e, J, R8a1a3 (or H1) and U5a1


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018442X16300038

Olympus Mons
19-10-16, 21:05
Bom Santo is a Neolithic burial cave located in the eastern slope of the Montejunto Mountain, ca. 50 km north of Lisbon, in the Estremadura province of central Portugal.

The mtDNA results (5300-5800 BP):

Local individuals: U5b, K1a2a1

Migrant individuals: T2b, J, HV0, H10e, J, R8a1a3 (or H1) and U5a1


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018442X16300038

Hey believe it or not...i was with David ( D. gonçalves ) sunday afternoon.

Maciamo
19-10-16, 22:56
Bom Santo is a Neolithic burial cave located in the eastern slope of the Montejunto Mountain, ca. 50 km north of Lisbon, in the Estremadura province of central Portugal.

The mtDNA results (5300-5800 BP):

Local individuals: U5b, K1a2a1

Migrant individuals: T2b, J, HV0, H10e, J, R8a1a3 (or H1) and U5a1


Do you have access to the article and did the authors mention that the above-mentioned haplogroups came from locals vs migrants? Or is it your own assumption?

Personally, I'd say that U5b, HV0, H1 and H10a are Mesolithic Iberian lineages, while J, K1a2a1, T2b came with Neolithic farmers. I am very surprised to find U5a1, which is a lineage of Mesolithic eastern and northern Europeans that is extremely rare in Portugal today.

And if the authors really hesitate between R8a1a3 and H1 in Portugal, maybe they aren't all that professional. R8a is a lineage found in eastern India, which has never been found in western Europe to my knowledge.

Olympus Mons
19-10-16, 23:48
Bom Santo is a Neolithic burial cave located in the eastern slope of the Montejunto Mountain, ca. 50 km north of Lisbon, in the Estremadura province of central Portugal.

The mtDNA results (5300-5800 BP):

Local individuals: U5b, K1a2a1

Migrant individuals: T2b, J, HV0, H10e, J, R8a1a3 (or H1) and U5a1


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018442X16300038


Do you have access to the article and did the authors mention that the above-mentioned haplogroups came from locals vs migrants? Or is it your own assumption?

Personally, I'd say that U5b, HV0, H1 and H10a are Mesolithic Iberian lineages, while J, K1a2a1, T2b came with Neolithic farmers. I am very surprised to find U5a1, which is a lineage of Mesolithic eastern and northern Europeans that is extremely rare in Portugal today.

And if the authors really hesitate between R8a1a3 and H1 in Portugal, maybe they aren't all that professional. R8a is a lineage found in eastern India, which has never been found in western Europe to my knowledge.


Now. Where does H10a comes from?
How close is to h10e only found in a corded ware women in eulau germany a 1000 years later.

elghund
19-10-16, 23:58
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_H_mtDNA.shtml


H10: found throughout Europe / found in Neolithic Germany and Portugal

H10a
H10b
H10c
H10d
H10e
H10f
H10g
H10h

Olympus Mons
20-10-16, 00:40
Bom Santo is a Neolithic burial cave located in the eastern slope of the Montejunto Mountain, ca. 50 km north of Lisbon, in the Estremadura province of central Portugal.

The mtDNA results (5300-5800 BP):

Local individuals: U5b, K1a2a1

Migrant individuals: T2b, J, HV0, H10e, J, R8a1a3 (or H1) and U5a1


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018442X16300038


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_H_mtDNA.shtml


H10: found throughout Europe / found in Neolithic Germany and Portugal

H10a
H10b
H10c
H10d
H10e
H10f
H10g
H10h



Oh yes? Where?
As far as ancestral journeys, and besides all her bias, I dont think she lies, h10e only is found in portugal 3600 bc in an incoming population to the place and 1000 year s later in a corded ware women in Eulau, place where BB exchanged women with CWC.

That is the facts. What is your version.

Alpenjager
20-10-16, 08:59
Do you have access to the article and did the authors mention that the above-mentioned haplogroups came from locals vs migrants? Or is it your own assumption?

Personally, I'd say that U5b, HV0, H1 and H10a are Mesolithic Iberian lineages, while J, K1a2a1, T2b came with Neolithic farmers. I am very surprised to find U5a1, which is a lineage of Mesolithic eastern and northern Europeans that is extremely rare in Portugal today.

And if the authors really hesitate between R8a1a3 and H1 in Portugal, maybe they aren't all that professional. R8a is a lineage found in eastern India, which has never been found in western Europe to my knowledge.

Yes, they analysed the Sr isotopes and the samples was classified as "locals" or "migrants".

Kristiina
20-10-16, 11:50
Yes, they analysed the Sr isotopes and the samples was classified as "locals" or "migrants".

I do not think that "migrants" came from very far. I would presume that all were from the Iberian Peninsula but some were more mobile than others.

Olympus Mons
20-10-16, 15:53
Bom Santo is a Neolithic burial cave located in the eastern slope of the Montejunto Mountain, ca. 50 km north of Lisbon, in the Estremadura province of central Portugal.

The mtDNA results (5300-5800 BP):

Local individuals: U5b, K1a2a1

Migrant individuals: T2b, J, HV0, H10e, J, R8a1a3 (or H1) and U5a1


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018442X16300038


I do not think that "migrants" came from very far. I would presume that all were from the Iberian Peninsula but some were more mobile than others.

Kriistina.... That is what i am emailing david about. Last Sunday he told me something about doubts he had.

Olympus Mons
20-10-16, 17:02
And Remarkably, what nobody is commenting, is the fact that one of the individuals is actually mtdna H10e. So, we have a H10e woman by 3700bc at the heart, the epicenter, of where the earliest Bell beaker is found. Zambujal and leceia is just miles way.

Then we only have another individual with it which is at Eulau, germany, near the place where Bell beakers exchange women with CWC in a 2600bc Women.

And nobody is even commenting it. Its strange. A rare H10e found in Yamnaya and later in Germany CWC would be the place of 1000 comments. Strange.

Angela
20-10-16, 17:13
The paper is behind a pay wall. However, I found the pre-print or draft version of it. There's absolutely no indication in the text that any kind of cultural change took place at this site with "migrants" coming from abroad. The migrants are just people from slightly different areas. They speculate there was bride exchange going on.

The ancient dna is very fragmentary, which is why there's such poor resolution. You can find the results on page 30 of the draft.

http://researchonline.ljmu.ac.uk/710/1/EJARCH-S-15-00013.pdf

Olympus Mons
20-10-16, 18:39
The paper is behind a pay wall. However, I found the pre-print or draft version of it. There's absolutely no indication in the text that any kind of cultural change took place at this site with "migrants" coming from abroad. The migrants are just people from slightly different areas. They speculate there was bride exchange going on.

The ancient dna is very fragmentary, which is why there's such poor resolution. You can find the results on page 30 of the draft.

http://researchonline.ljmu.ac.uk/710/1/EJARCH-S-15-00013.pdf


Angela,
Right. But values fro 87Sr/86Sr values seem too high, even for Alentejo.
And, above all two of the sheeps have it 0.7122 and 0.7134 --well, dont know where in portugal those values can be found, but I know that those are values common in north Africa!
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M%26PS...37..565S&db_key=AST&page_ind=0&data_type=GIF&type=SCREEN_VIEW&classic=YES

Maciamo
20-10-16, 19:42
And Remarkably, what nobody is commenting, is the fact that one of the individuals is actually mtdna H10e. So, we have a H10e woman by 3700bc at the heart, the epicenter, of where the earliest Bell beaker is found. Zambujal and leceia is just miles way.

Then we only have another individual with it which is at Eulau, germany, near the place where Bell beakers exchange women with CWC in a 2600bc Women.

And nobody is even commenting it. Its strange. A rare H10e found in Yamnaya and later in Germany CWC would be the place of 1000 comments. Strange.

I consider H10 as Mesolithic European, as it is found throughout Europe today, but is virtually absent in the Middle East. So it is not that surprising to find it Neolithic Portugal.

MOESAN
20-10-16, 22:49
Angela,
Right. But values fro 87Sr/86Sr values seem too high, even for Alentejo.
And, above all two of the sheeps have it 0.7122 and 0.7134 --well, dont know where in portugal those values can be found, but I know that those are values common in north Africa!
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M%26PS...37..565S&db_key=AST&page_ind=0&data_type=GIF&type=SCREEN_VIEW&classic=YES

In the digest communicated by Angela they seem thinkings these values could be found in Portugal, in some places North or East, not so far. If I red well.
They seem considering the mt DNA (not too well defined) as very diverse for the time and place. I don't know but it's true mt-H doesn't appear so dominant here compared to other places of Portugal; but the sample is still little.

ellefolk
04-11-18, 09:08
This is an old thread but it’s been hard finding sources for R8a1a3. I also have H1 / H1a no clade. I match with corded ware etc too but I assumed that was later on or from later admixture. Now my head hurts