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MOESAN
22-10-16, 19:43
I'm sorry, I open e new thread without the aim to have it to perdure too long time; only because I don't find a previous thread where I was asked about Scythians (here I've only Sakas) concerning auDNA.
But this few words can maybe used in other thread here or in 'history'
Now a PCA is a PCA.

On a auDNA PCA comparing ancient an current pops - I don't find the origin - I noticed:
- Bactrians: between Pathans, Brahmin,Makrani on one side and Sakas, Alans'1' on the other side
-Sogdians: between Bactrians (close) and Alans'1'/Massagetae, close enough, these ones towards Lezgins/Adygei >> Georgians (very farther)
- Sakas: between Bactrians (close) and Chuvash, Sarmatians, Iazyges, Alans '2' (all a bit 1farther)
*: Chuvashs more drifted towards North and East pops
Cimmerians: between Roxolans/Sarmatians/Iazyges, all close, and Scots, Orcadians (N-W drifted) and Finland (East drifted) farther

on this PCA,
Sakas, Sarmatians, Iazyges, Roxolans, Alans, Cimmerians, all are - spite in different proportions - drifted more on the direction of Northern and North-Eastern pops than towards Caucasus or Arabia
If I keep on with an axis linking N-India Pakistan to N-W+N-E Europe pops (close enough on this PCA), roughly said, I have from India to N Europe the following gradiant:
Bactrians - Sogdians -- Massagetae/Alans'1'/Saka -- Sarmatians/Alans'2' ... Iazyges/Roxolans -- Cimmerians (these last ones close enough to N Europeans, particuliarly Russians)
* Bactrians, Sogdians are close to Pakistan/N India, very farther from Kurds/Iranians who are drifted towards Arabia - by example, Lezgins and Adygei are closer than Kurds/Iranians to Sogdians/Bactrians on one side and to the group Sarmatians/Iazyges/Roxolans/Massagetae on the other side...
** Bactrians show more attraction to Steppes than to Iran! More Indus Valley + Steppes (whatever the dates!): the 'gedrosia' component more than the 'caucasus' one I think - that said today pops of Iran are not completely the same ones as in past-

I don't know what worth to give to a lone PCA but it's for the fun...

Alan
23-10-16, 04:21
Moesan I don't want to sound harsh but first I don't see any PCAs and allot of what I read above is very incorrect with tendencies towards rubbish. Usually your comments make good sense but this one is like someone else wrote it.

MOESAN
23-10-16, 22:36
Moesan I don't want to sound harsh but first I don't see any PCAs and allot of what I read above is very incorrect with tendencies towards rubbish. Usually your comments make good sense but this one is like someone else wrote it.

If you read correctly my post; you CANNOT SAY what you say here! More prudence in your words would be wellcome, spite I always read your posts with interest, if not always in line with you. But here you are almost harsh. Don't worry, I 'll survive (I survived to Sarkozy and Hollande).
What hurt you here?:
- It's true I don't find the source of this PCA I had by "screen capture", I regreat it because it would be better to know who edited it (firstable I thought it was Eurogenes, but it seems it is not his common design). So you care or discard it, it's your right.
- I myself put some caution in analysis of single PCA's but very often they say something about affinities if not about recent origins.
As I could not copy and paste this PCA I delivered to other forumers my remarks, no more. BTW some PCA show no big attraction of BA Armenians toward N-E Europe, rather a position between ancient Iran people and Neolithic farmers of Anatolia, spite a first impression I have had.
- I gave directions of apparent drifts and sometimes proximities.
Yes, ANCIENT Bactrians, and more Sogdians, show (on this PCA!) something like a SLIGHT attraction towards TODAY N-E Europe plottings
spite CLOSE to modern Pathans and Brahui without any tendance towards MODERN Iranians and Kurds. I wrote Steppes by error, sorry. Interesting is the position of modern North-Caucasians too. One could say: N-E Europe shows a SLIGHT attraction towards Pathans and Brahui, things are not simple.
What could be said is these BMAC people and today N-E Europeans have some relations which did not include too much today Iranians, so not too much Neolithic Farmers (with their Levant Neol component). Who could have been the inhabitants of the territories where exchanges could have taken place? The Steppes I suppose. Ancient Iranians, BTW, were closer to Pathans than today Iranians.
archeology, to make fools of us, show East Caspian-BMAC influences in Sintashta (but anthropology don't show big input, relative "carence" confirmed by auDNA) and complicated interactions too between Andronovolike Steppics and BMAC around the 2000 BC in relations where the Steppics did not seem being on the weak side. My thought is that what we have don't imply a clear participation of Southern Caucasus people of Metals Ages in the constition of Steppic Eastern Iranians. No more. It could even substain a thesis of Iranicization by Eastern Iran North Indus (# Harappa) rather than a return eastwards through Pontic Steppes after crossing the Caucasus; but it confirm a slight input of northern Steppes pop's at some stage, input which become heavier and heavier among Roxolans, Sarmatinas and Co.
The "route" on a PCA surface is not by force the true route geographically speaking, it's only a mark of relative distances;
We know Steppics were not a monoblock: they had one or two common components + diverse lighter others with diverse presence or absence: here again anthropology and AuDNA show the differences, even in the same culture in different places, as well Afanasyevo as Pit Grave and Catacomb's. As a whole the more Eastern were less Central Europe, less Anatolian Neol to say things like that.
Anthropology says Late Oxus people were a bit different from earlier pops.
I was not dreaming that my post would have resolved the I-Ean question in itself. Just matter to question.

&: let's remember the last sentance of my first post:
I don't know what worth to give to a lone PCA but it's for the fun...

Goga
24-10-16, 19:08
You seems not to understand some BASIC things about the origin of the Iranian/ARYNS. First of all there are 2 main types of the Iranians. West Iranians and East Iranians. The ancient Aryan Medes, Persians etc. were West Iranians. Modern Kurds and modern Iranians are still WEST Iranians. In Central Asia live the East Iranians. Those Iranians are NOT the original Iranians and are heavily mixed with the Indic and Mongoloid people of the Steppes.

WEST Iranians were the original Iranians and those ORIGINAL Iranians migrated into the BMAC and gave birth to the EAST Iranians. Those EAST Iranians from BMAC invaded / colonized the Steppes and later invaded Northern India. Iranized people of the Steppes, like Steppe Scythians were EAST Iranian speakers. So, of course it would make sense that modern East Iranian speakers are still closer related to the ancient Eastern Iranians than the modern day WEST Iranian (Aryans) like Kurds.

Although there was a back migration of the East Iranians (Western Scythians) into Kurdistan. But later those East Iranian speaking Scythians were assimilated by the West Iranians/Medes. Kurds still have about ±20% of DNA of the East Iranian speaking Scythians from the Steppes who migrated into the land of the mighty Aryan Medes about 3000 years ago.


West Iranians are the ORIGINAL Iranians who firstly migrated into the BMAC. They evolved into the EAST Iranians. Those East Iranians colonized the Steppes and linguistically Iranized the aboriginal people. If the aboriginal people of the Steppes spoke an Iranian language, it was an EAST Iranian language. Kurds and Iranians speak a WEST Iranian language like their Aryan ancestors the Medes.


Kurdish DNA is still closely related to the ancient WEST Iranians. My DNA is still the same as (similar to) the DNA of the Copper (& Iron) Age Aryans (West Iranian Medes).

MOESAN
28-10-16, 10:47
You seems not to understand some BASIC things about the origin of the Iranian/ARYNS. First of all there are 2 main types of the Iranians. West Iranians and East Iranians. The ancient Aryan Medes, Persians etc. were West Iranians. Modern Kurds and modern Iranians are still WEST Iranians. In Central Asia live the East Iranians. Those Iranians are NOT the original Iranians and are heavily mixed with the Indic and Mongoloid people of the Steppes.

WEST Iranians were the original Iranians and those ORIGINAL Iranians migrated into the BMAC and gave birth to the EAST Iranians. Those EAST Iranians from BMAC invaded / colonized the Steppes and later invaded Northern India. Iranized people of the Steppes, like Steppe Scythians were EAST Iranian speakers. So, of course it would make sense that modern East Iranian speakers are still closer related to the ancient Eastern Iranians than the modern day WEST Iranian (Aryans) like Kurds.

Although there was a back migration of the East Iranians (Western Scythians) into Kurdistan. But later those East Iranian speaking Scythians were assimilated by the West Iranians/Medes. Kurds still have about ±20% of DNA of the East Iranian speaking Scythians from the Steppes who migrated into the land of the mighty Aryan Medes about 3000 years ago.


West Iranians are the ORIGINAL Iranians who firstly migrated into the BMAC. They evolved into the EAST Iranians. Those East Iranians colonized the Steppes and linguistically Iranized the aboriginal people. If the aboriginal people of the Steppes spoke an Iranian language, it was an EAST Iranian language. Kurds and Iranians speak a WEST Iranian language like their Aryan ancestors the Medes.


Kurdish DNA is still closely related to the ancient WEST Iranians. My DNA is still the same as (similar to) the DNA of the Copper (& Iron) Age Aryans (West Iranian Medes).

O! Goga!
let's read my posts: it was a try to push people having more data to react to the supposed reality of this PCA; It's supposed to be rough material, no more; I never made a theory about propagation of Iranic languages in SWC Asia! it's only an element to show distances and CONTACTS; contacts doesn't give us everytime the direction of languages changes and spreading; we have to built our thought upon more than a kind of elements.
Here you oblige me to add some words: the fact that Iranians had already Anatolian input at Chalco which put them farther from their Neolithic forms (auDNA) and that today East Iranic pops show more ties to ANI + slight S-Steppes people could tell us something; if it was "pure" East-Iranians who had iranicized SWCAsia, they would have done it before Chalco/BA; I know the 'anatolian' DNA could have perspired through females but the differences is strong enough: I don't know what says linguistics here but I believe Iranic languages appeared later there; I don't affirm anything, DNA doesn't say everything to us, demic is not linguistic even if there are statistical links, spite what believe someones; surely you know more than me about Iranic languages origin;
&: that said, Goga, spite it's very little, I've Wikipedia at hand like others and I know how to read.

MOESAN
28-10-16, 10:54
If people have not more data to send or no precise critics about this very PCA, they can give their answers in appropriate threads about Iran, Iranic and so on, either in History or in ancient DNA.

Judith
14-01-17, 13:37
Which paper does the original data come from please?

MOESAN
29-01-17, 12:20
Which paper does the original data come from please?

I've to search and I'm not sure I'll find it, excuse me - all I can say (to securise some forumers here) is that the "design" of the PCA is not what we found as a rule in Eurogenes!

LeBrok
29-01-17, 19:10
Here is a genome of Scythian IA, and genome from Yamnaya and other Steppe folks, and CW, in HarappaWorld admixtures. We can see huge similarities, especially with Yamnaya. One major difference is about 8% of new East Asian input of Siberian, NE Asian. There might be some more input (5-10%) from Iranian Chalcolithic to support Caucasian and Baloch on same levels.
I would say that Scythian is at least 75% Yamnaya, with extra added from WHG, EEF (Med),Iranian N, and Siberian-hunter gatherer/herder.

Let's just keep in mind that Yamnaya is already with something like 25% input from Neolithic Iranian into Samara h-g.

All new admixtures move Scythian NE Euro about 10-15% lower than in previous Steppe inhabitants.



M348213
i0247

M766878
I0440

M690970
Rise386

M217196
I0430

M913021
Rise00


scythian


Poltavka Yamnaya
4.7 kya

Sintashta


Srubnaya

Corded Estonia
4 kya


Run time
11.07

Run time
10.78

Run time
3.81

Run time
8.02

Run Time
8.05


S-Indian
0.67

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
24.99

Baloch
30.06

Baloch
18.5

Baloch
19.86

Baloch
14.27


Caucasian
7.68

Caucasian
7.57

Caucasian
2.01

Caucasian
2.35

Caucasian
-


NE-Euro
45.27

NE-Euro
59.14

NE-Euro
57.8

NE-Euro
55.13

NE-Euro
59.09


SE-Asian
0.83

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
6.39

Siberian
0.99

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
0.8


NE-Asian
1.31

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
2.85

American
2.21

American
-

American
0.91

American
-


Beringian
1.40

Beringian
-

Beringian
0.56

Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
8.62

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
19.92

Mediterranean
21.67

Mediterranean
25.26


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
0.07

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
-

W-African
-

W-African
1.2

W-African
-

W-African
0.5

MOESAN
02-02-17, 23:13
thanks Lebrok
I suppose the Scythian you have here is a Western one (Ukraina?) - So maybe it could have intergrated Pontic elements in his auDNA? (just a bit) - for the most he shows as you say strong affinity with BA Steppes Cultures + some more NE-Asian/ Siberian elements, eastern elements which are not surprising for IA people of Steppes of the time when we look at Pazyryk and others peri-Altaic regions, if I don't mistake (and if this Scythian had ancestors in East, what would be normal)- What I see is that this Scythian - maybe not representative for all Scythians (?) - doesn't show greater input from SWC Asia and Iran than a lot of other Steppes people – Sintashta here confirms its Central-West European input, and less Iran input (because ‘caucasus’ decreases faster than ‘baloch’) , what seems contradicting archeologistic ties (if we follow Grigroyev’s archeology) – but some archeologistic input and traces can be followed by new arrivals of pops without link with them, what does not imply everytime a disparition of theses former traces –
I think Scythians ought to be compared with Yamnaya people rather than with too special Sintashta people, spite the chronologic distance – this Scythian shows here a loss in ‘NE-Euro’ and in ‘baloch’, statu quo for ‘caucasus’, and a jump in diverse ‘north-asian’ and in ‘mediter’ – the loss for ‘baloch’ is about 20%; it’s not impressing and I don’t conclude anything concerning the ‘caucaus’ part, the excess in the Scythian compared to ‘baloch’ ratio is too tiny – I see nothing evocating by force a supplementary input of CHCIran in it compared to Poltavka -
I noticed on the PCA which justified the opening of this thread that the most of the East Iranian nomads were “on a line” between modern Pathans and Northeastern Europeans, not attracted towards modern Iranian or Kurds pops and Near-Eastern Pops, and being even closer to modern North Caucasus pops speaking non-IE tongues –
One explanation could be in the fact that modern west-iranian speaking pops absorbed more ‘mediter’ (more ‘levant neol’ less ‘iran-neol’) from Neolithic Anatolians and more recent Semitic pops? But it is not sure it’s the whole reason – that said the concerned Scythian here is not Saka nor Alan nor Roxolan nor Sarmatian… far “cousin” but not identical, and after a long journey of his ancestors from East to West -

LeBrok
03-02-17, 00:20
thanks Lebrok
I suppose the Scythian you have here is a Western one (Ukraina?) - So maybe it could have intergrated Pontic elements in his auDNA? (just a bit) - for the most he shows as you say strong affinity with BA Steppes Cultures + some more NE-Asian/ Siberian elements, eastern elements which are not surprising for IA people of Steppes of the time when we look at Pazyryk and others peri-Altaic regions, if I don't mistake (and if this Scythian had ancestors in East, what would be normal)- What I see is that this Scythian - maybe not representative for all Scythians (?) - doesn't show greater input from SWC Asia and Iran than a lot of other Steppes people – Sintashta here confirms its Central-West European input, and less Iran input (because ‘caucasus’ decreases faster than ‘baloch’) , what seems contradicting archeologistic ties (if we follow Grigroyev’s archeology) – but some archeologistic input and traces can be followed by new arrivals of pops without link with them, what does not imply everytime a disparition of theses former traces –
I think Scythians ought to be compared with Yamnaya people rather than with too special Sintashta people, spite the chronologic distance – this Scythian shows here a loss in ‘NE-Euro’ and in ‘baloch’, statu quo for ‘caucasus’, and a jump in diverse ‘north-asian’ and in ‘mediter’ – the loss for ‘baloch’ is about 20%; it’s not impressing and I don’t conclude anything concerning the ‘caucaus’ part, the excess in the Scythian compared to ‘baloch’ ratio is too tiny – I see nothing evocating by force a supplementary input of CHCIran in it compared to Poltavka -
I noticed on the PCA which justified the opening of this thread that the most of the East Iranian nomads were “on a line” between modern Pathans and Northeastern Europeans, not attracted towards modern Iranian or Kurds pops and Near-Eastern Pops, and being even closer to modern North Caucasus pops speaking non-IE tongues –
One explanation could be in the fact that modern west-iranian speaking pops absorbed more ‘mediter’ (more ‘levant neol’ less ‘iran-neol’) from Neolithic Anatolians and more recent Semitic pops? But it is not sure it’s the whole reason – that said the concerned Scythian here is not Saka nor Alan nor Roxolan nor Sarmatian… far “cousin” but not identical, and after a long journey of his ancestors from East to West -
Yes, we need definitely more Iron Age steppe people. I have second Iron Age guy, but from east side of the steppe, from Altai. Below he is with modern Mongolian.




F999965
Rise902





Russia, Sary-Bel, Kytmanovo Altai
2kya

Mongolian
Modern


Run time
9

Run time



S-Indian
1

S-Indian
1


Baloch
19

Baloch
5


Caucasian
7

Caucasian
5


NE-Euro
32

NE-Euro
6


SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0


Siberian
22

Siberian
38


NE-Asian
7

NE-Asian
39


Papuan
-

Papuan
0


American
4

American
1


Beringian
4

Beringian
2


Mediterranean
1

Mediterranean
2


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
2

W-African
0

MOESAN
22-02-17, 23:42
Thanks Lebrok
Russia, Sary-Bel, Kytmanovo Altai - is this "Iron man" an Eastern Scythian? or only something culturally not too well defined?
If he is a Scythian, he shows some clear differences from the Don Scythian, in accord with crossings with pops of - North Pontic zone I suppose -
BTW I found my Scythian on this (un)famous PCA: very close to the Cimmerians, closer to Russians than the close enough Roxolans, just a very little bit shifted towards Chuvashs (almost nothing) - he was hidden under the name 'WSCY' !!! on the PCA he doesn't show too much affinity with 'mediter' or 'EEF' pops but it is this tiny North-Asian/Amerindian input which attract him a bit towards Chuvashs?

LeBrok
23-02-17, 00:40
In some other thread I proclaimed East Yamnayans vanishing forever quickly (at least in Europe), but here it seems like IA Steppe people/Scythians held a lot similarities to Yamnaya. I'm not versed well to say anything about cultural similarities, just noticing genetic ones.


M828815
Rise552

M348213
i0247


Ulan iV, Yamnaya
4.5 kya

scythian



Run time
9.08

Run time
11.07


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
0.67


Baloch
33.24

Baloch
24.99


Caucasian
6.58

Caucasian
7.68


NE-Euro
56.02

NE-Euro
45.27


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.83


Siberian
-

Siberian
6.39


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
1.31


Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
2.46

American
2.85


Beringian
0.75

Beringian
1.4


Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
8.62


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.95

W-African
-