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bicicleur
02-11-16, 19:55
http://www.realmofhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/3700-year-woman-face-bronze-age-reconstructed-770x437.jpg

northern Scotland Bell Beaker

there is nothing archaïc to her
she might walk the streets today, unnoticed

for what it is worth ..

http://www.realmofhistory.com/2016/07/30/3700-year-woman-face-bronze-age-reconstructed/

LeBrok
02-11-16, 21:25
northern Scotland Bell Beaker

there is nothing archaïc to her
she might walk the streets today, unnoticed

for what it is worth ..

http://www.realmofhistory.com/2016/07/30/3700-year-woman-face-bronze-age-reconstructed/
Because maybe it is a real person photo?
https://gvacdn.akamaized.net/Assets/Images_Upload/arch/2010/02/18/917593/jongeman-die-hatice-ava-14-neerstak-vermoedelijk-opgepakt_1_515x0.jpg?maxheight=460&maxwidth=629
http://www.gva.be/cnt/aid903706/jongeman-die-hatice-ava-14-neerstak-vermoedelijk-opgepakt

Be more sceptical of reconstructions.

Huitzilopochtli
02-11-16, 21:43
Apparently she had an odd shaped skull. Suppose she actually had brown hair and brown eyes and slightly darker skin (which is fairly likely given her age), would people today think she was a Turkish immigrant?

LeBrok
02-11-16, 21:55
http://www.messagetoeagle.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/avafacereconstruction.jpg

Rethel
02-11-16, 22:07
there is nothing archaïc to her

What you expect to be archaic?

Fire Haired14
03-11-16, 00:21
You shouldn't expect anything archaic or non-archtypical European about her. I think sometimes we see ancient people as more different from us than they were.

Northener
03-11-16, 12:54
Apparently she had an odd shaped skull. Suppose she actually had brown hair and brown eyes and slightly darker skin (which is fairly likely given her age), would people today think she was a Turkish immigrant?

No need to be a slightly darker because the look a like of Le Brok is Hatice Ava a girl with a Turkish background!

bicicleur
03-11-16, 13:51
You shouldn't expect anything archaic or non-archtypical European about her. I think sometimes we see ancient people as more different from us than they were.

so, many of the modern Europeans got their looks from the Bell Beaker people ?

Rethel
03-11-16, 15:20
Totaly coincidently, I found full picture:

http://www.weekendowo.pl/thumb/files/gfx/entries/286/7322/NjAweDE4MDAhdw==,1469971176.jpeg


so, many of the modern Europeans got their looks from the Bell Beaker people ?

If they are basically the same people, why they shopuld look differently?
For me she is not typical, but why shouldn't she looks like ancient people...

Angela
03-11-16, 16:25
I think all these reconstructions should be taken with a whole load of salt, even more so as in this case where it doesn't seem that they used any genetic information whatsoever, not even pigmentation snps.

Even with all the "appearance" snps available, the software has some way to go, although it's obviously much better than what is currently being done.

The nose was totally wrong in the reconstruction, as were the eyes I think.

https://figshare.com/articles/Craig_Venter_cannot_predict_faces/4197972/1

davef
03-11-16, 17:19
What you expect to be archaic?

I side; do we really have any idea as to how ancient Europeans were appearance wise? And the reconstruction looks almost exactly like the modern girl leBrok posted.

bicicleur
03-11-16, 17:30
Because maybe it is a real person photo?
https://gvacdn.akamaized.net/Assets/Images_Upload/arch/2010/02/18/917593/jongeman-die-hatice-ava-14-neerstak-vermoedelijk-opgepakt_1_515x0.jpg?maxheight=460&maxwidth=629
http://www.gva.be/cnt/aid903706/jongeman-die-hatice-ava-14-neerstak-vermoedelijk-opgepakt

Be more sceptical of reconstructions.

I'm skeptical of all reconstrutions, it is more 'art' than science

LeBrok
03-11-16, 18:23
No need to be a slightly darker because the look a like of Le Brok is Hatice Ava a girl with a Turkish background! Turkish? That makes this reconstruction even less "precise".

Northener
03-11-16, 18:31
Turkish? That makes this reconstruction even less "precise".

Less...? It was Coon who suspected Eastern Mediterranean influences ("Dinarid") on the Bell Beaker.
I agree with Angela in the article it's not clear if SNP's are used for the color of hair, eyes etc. So highly speculative indeed.

LeBrok
03-11-16, 18:35
Less...? It was Coon who suspected Eastern Mediterranean influences ("Dinarid") on the Bell Beaker.
I agree with Angela in the article it's not clear if SNP's are used for the color of hair, eyes etc. So highly speculative indeed.
Yes, influence, but we can't see it in hair. She's presented more as typical Bell Beaker who should look like modern population of the region.

Huitzilopochtli
03-11-16, 19:12
They didn't use any DNA in reconstruction. From 10:35 Maya Hoole explains that they choose hair, eye, and skin color on the basis of its prevalence in the current population.

bellbeakerblogger. blogspot.com/2016/08/archaeosoup-interviews-maya-hoole-on-ava.html

LeBrok
03-11-16, 23:50
I think all these reconstructions should be taken with a whole load of salt, even more so as in this case where it doesn't seem that they used any genetic information whatsoever, not even pigmentation snps.

Even with all the "appearance" snps available, the software has some way to go, although it's obviously much better than what is currently being done.

The nose was totally wrong in the reconstruction, as were the eyes I think.

https://figshare.com/articles/Craig_Venter_cannot_predict_faces/4197972/1 Yep, we still learning how to read phenotype from DNA. Having said that, perhaps we would get a closer reconstruction using Venter's methode than artist guesses, and definitely much closer reconstruction using her skull combined with today's understanding of DNA. Let's give it couple more years to start seeing real faces just from DNA and computer reconstruction. Very exciting times are coming soon.

bicicleur
04-11-16, 01:30
Yep, we still learning how to read phenotype from DNA. Having said that, perhaps we would get a closer reconstruction using Venter's methode than artist guesses, and definitely much closer reconstruction using her skull combined with today's understanding of DNA. Let's give it couple more years to start seeing real faces just from DNA and computer reconstruction. Very exciting times are coming soon.

with software they try to produce a picture of criminals whose DNA is found on the crime scene, but today still unsuccesfull
so, what to expect from 3700 yo DNA?
it can only be a wild guess

I'm very sceptical about all reconstructions, not only this one

I recall a few weeks ago a reconstruction of a Mycenean was discussed here.
I think the guess of the artist who did the reconstruction is as good as mine

LeBrok
04-11-16, 02:47
with software they try to produce a picture of criminals whose DNA is found on the crime scene, but today still unsuccesfull
so, what to expect from 3700 yo DNA?
it can only be a wild guess It is not working for criminals because you have to be 100% exact. Otherwise you can prosecute wrong person. For reconstructing ancients it is enough to be close, sort of describing average person in the population.

MOESAN
04-11-16, 16:29
I think all these reconstructions should be taken with a whole load of salt, even more so as in this case where it doesn't seem that they used any genetic information whatsoever, not even pigmentation snps.

Even with all the "appearance" snps available, the software has some way to go, although it's obviously much better than what is currently being done.

The nose was totally wrong in the reconstruction, as were the eyes I think.

https://figshare.com/articles/Craig_Venter_cannot_predict_faces/4197972/1

I'm tempted to agree!

Fire Haired14
06-11-16, 07:35
so, many of the modern Europeans got their looks from the Bell Beaker people ?

It's because (Eastern)Bell Beaker's was genetically the same as modern Europeans.