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arvistro
04-11-16, 08:46
Article here. Running for work, will read later.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00438-016-1267-z

gyms
04-11-16, 09:36
Article here. Running for work, will read later.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00438-016-1267-z

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-DISCUSSION-THREAD-FOR-quot-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-quot/page18
"2 haplotypes match the typical I2-M423 haplotype common among Slavic speakers. The other 2 match R1b-U106. I have a hard time believing either group inhabited southern Siberia, so I'm doubtful either really represents a conquering Hungarian from Siberia. However, it appears some of the mtDNA haplotypes are A, and B, so on the maternal side there might be some argument there."

MOESAN
04-11-16, 11:18
Hungarians migrations, slow, pushed them in a lot of lands and they progressively assimilated diverse pops; they stayed long enough time in western Ukraina before settling in Carpathian Bassin. Their ethnogenesis is very complicated in fact.

berun
04-11-16, 16:59
Very true, the Ukranian stay would be a good place to acquire Y DNA of Germanic Gothians (the language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic)was yet alive in XIII century Crimea).

http://i.imgur.com/Eb2BB3f.jpg

By the way till reading the paper as to know if the type of cemetery correspond to Magyars or locals it's not sure that such DNA was aloctone.

LeBrok
04-11-16, 17:41
Interesting. They look very local and not central Asian. I wonder if these hungarian researchers didn't "influence" the results? This is a bit of touchy matter for hungarian european identity.

gyms
04-11-16, 18:09
"Hungarians migrations, slow, pushed them in a lot of lands and they progressively assimilated diverse pops; they stayed long enough time in western Ukraina before settling in Carpathian Bassin. Their ethnogenesis is very complicated in fact."

No.The migration took about thirty-sixty years (AD 830/850 - 895/896).

gyms
04-11-16, 18:13
Interesting. They look very local and not central Asian. I wonder if these hungarian researchers didn't "influence" the results? This is a bit of touchy matter for hungarian european identity.

What are you getting at?
Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA haplotypes and Y-chromosome haplogroups in a small cemetery


Authors (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00438-016-1267-z#authors)
Authors and affiliations (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00438-016-1267-z#authorsandaffiliations)



Endre Neparáczki
Zoltán Juhász
Horolma Pamjav
Tibor Fehér
Bernadett Csányi
Albert Zink
Frank Maixner
György Pálfi
Erika Molnár
Ildikó Pap
Ágnes Kustár
László Révész
István Raskó
Tibor TörökEmail author ([email protected])

gyms
04-11-16, 18:55
Authentication criteria
Ancient DNA work was performed in the specialized
ancient DNA (aDNA) facilities of the Department of
Genetics, University of Szeged, Hungary with strict cleanroom
conditions, according to appropriate criteria (Knapp
et al. 2012). The post-PCR work was done in a laboratory
located in a separated remote side-wing of the building.
Throughout the experiments, the multistrategy DNA
decontamination procedure of Champlot et al. (2010)
was applied, namely, water was irradiated with 5 kGy
gamma ray, enzymes, dNTP and primers were treated

with hl-dsDNase and buffers were UV irradiated. Several
DNA extraction and non-template PCR blank controls were
used, and only samples with negative control results were
maintained.
DNA isolation and HVR haplotyping of three samples
(15, 16, and 19) were replicated in the laboratory of
EURAC Bolzano, with identical results. Two of the Y-chr
Hg-s revealed by GenoY25 SNPs could also be corroborated
by STR analysis performed independently in the Network
of Forensic Science Institutes, Budapest.
Hg-s and haplotypes of laboratory staff were determined,
and were not identical with any of the samples.
The GenoCoRe and especially GenoY electropherograms
often contained double peaks indicating contamination,
nevertheless from repeated purifications and sequencing,
multiple SNaPshot reactions, optimized single-plex
PCR and STR data Hg-s could be determined unequivocally
in most cases. The GenoCoRe22 results were concordant
with Hg assignments based on HVR sequence.
We have identified a large number of Asian mtDNA
haplotypes, which are very rare in modern-day Hungarian
populations, and could not be derived from contamination.

arvistro
04-11-16, 19:00
Conquerors were women!

gyms
04-11-16, 19:26
Conquerors were women!
Keep smiling,arvistro!Conquerors ARE always women.

johen
04-11-16, 19:53
It would be culturally correct that maygar people came from central asia or south siberia.

Some scholars in the East Asia claimed that maygar people originated in Margal tribe to be called to be Jurichen(Jin) or Manchu people (Qing dynasty) also who ruled China two times. Sometime Jurichen was called " Khitan".
Margal hairstyle was same as the Hun's.

However, the hairstyle of Maygar was a little different.
Maygar people shaved their head except three long braids. you can see the braids of maygar horseman also.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=dvVQbhxa4OUC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=maygar+people+shaved+their+head+except+three+lo ng&source=bl&ots=BWboxLd7Mz&sig=BEnkt5hPq_jMtF4UclcfwMNIh0s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiP84-F0o_QAhVV62MKHUmyCo8Q6AEILDAF#v=onepage&q=maygar%20people%20shaved%20their%20head%20except %20three%20long&f=false

Their hairstyle was similar to avar, khitan, and mongol.
I think this kind of culture came from central Asia, the heritage of american Indian, who stayed in altai.

Maygar
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9b/Rajzom.JPG

Avar
http://kurultaj.hu/wp-content/uploads/a1-625x420.jpg

Khitan
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/MongolHuntersSong.jpg

Brennos
04-11-16, 21:33
Interesting. They look very local and not central Asian. I wonder if these hungarian researchers didn't "influence" the results? This is a bit of touchy matter for hungarian european identity.

The researcher's haplogroup is J2, it is stated in one of the tables. Well... local or not, also those mongol aristocrats from the imperial family grave belonged to Y haplogroup R1b, subclade unknown.

I wonder if it popped out another Y-DNA haplogoup different from R1b... well, I would say that nobody would dare to put in doubt the connection with the historical conquerors. But it is R1b, so it is better to say that the conclusions are wrong. Great!

Coriolan
04-11-16, 22:08
If the Magyars came from Siberia wouldn't they belong to haplogroup N1c and R1a?

arvistro
04-11-16, 22:17
Some other studies had N1c if I recall right. This one had R1b and I2.
They most likely were multi-cultural mix of tribes, that for some reason decided to speak Finno-Ugric tongue of Mansi cousins.

Brennos
04-11-16, 23:46
Some other studies had N1c if I recall right. This one had R1b and I2.
They most likely were multi-cultural mix of tribes, that for some reason decided to speak Finno-Ugric tongue of Mansi cousins.

I think so...is the conclusion towards which the results want to bring us.

On a different level, also germanic tribes were surely a multi-cultural mix...look at those ergolding results: four r1b knights (three of those fully equipped with horseman's features) and two g2a knights.

arvistro
05-11-16, 09:26
Perhaps every tribe was. At some point

berun
05-11-16, 11:41
By the way till reading the paper as to know if the type of cemetery correspond to Magyars or locals it's not sure that such DNA was aloctone.

Just I was getting the info about the traditional Magyar burials as to know if the genetists have tested true Magyar DNA or just local DNA, and in the wiki there is this info about the Kushnarenkovo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushnarenkovo_culture) and Karayakupovo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karayakupovo_culture) cultures north of Bashkiria...:


Archaeologists have found that the studied tribes at an early stage (in VI-VIII centuries) were buried under mounds, the heads to north. Skull buried - with signs of artificial deformation. Later, the head to the dead already oriented to the west. The burials of the remains of weapons, horse gear, a variety of jewelry and ceramics.


The culture is also represented by earthen mounds with a diameter of 8–10 m and a height of 40–60 cm over the graves. Near the graves and within them there are traces of ritual burial horse (skins, heads and four legs). People were buried in wooden coffins. The bottom is littered coffins, woolen cloth. Coffins before lowering into the grave for holding of the fire. This simulated ritual cremation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation). The feet of the dead is often associated with ropes - to the dead man could not stand up and do harm to survivors. On the coffin and put leather bridle sets. Sometimes near the grave dug pits for placing caches in them saddle and bridle sets.

So I was wondering how a culture with kurgans and horses was not immediately assigned to IE languages by Yamnayists ;) so that I checked again the Y DNA results as to be sure that the R1b were not the Yamnayan R1b (otherwise I would have laughed several hours and surely it would not be good for my health...). The case is that the Anthrogenica comment is based on what in the supplementary info of the paper appears, two R1b1b1a and two I, but the case is that such R1b1b1a is labeled as S21 / U106... but the real actual expression is R1b1a2a1a1...

so I ask for help, my life is in danger...
;)

Brennos
05-11-16, 15:02
Just I was getting the info about the traditional Magyar burials as to know if the genetists have tested true Magyar DNA or just local DNA, and in the wiki there is this info about the Kushnarenkovo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushnarenkovo_culture) and Karayakupovo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karayakupovo_culture) cultures north of Bashkiria...:





So I was wondering how a culture with kurgans and horses was not immediately assigned to IE languages by Yamnayists ;) so that I checked again the Y DNA results as to be sure that the R1b were not the Yamnayan R1b (otherwise I would have laughed several hours and surely it would not be good for my health...). The case is that the Anthrogenica comment is based on what in the supplementary info of the paper appears, two R1b1b1a and two I, but the case is that such R1b1b1a is labeled as S21 / U106... but the real actual expression is R1b1a2a1a1...

so I ask for help, my life is in danger...
;)

Please, spare me your cheap and sad sarcasm, it's really rude and out of topic when you talk about an early medieval culture and link it unlogically to a prehystoric culture to denigrate other people's thoughts.

MOESAN
05-11-16, 16:42
"Hungarians migrations, slow, pushed them in a lot of lands and they progressively assimilated diverse pops; they stayed long enough time in western Ukraina before settling in Carpathian Bassin. Their ethnogenesis is very complicated in fact."

No.The migration took about thirty-sixty years (AD 830/850 - 895/896).

What part of their tribulations? the better known, true. Their far (Ugric) ancestry begun east the Urals, where a basis of 'cromagnoid' (eastern) mixed with a 'mongoloid' elite at the Bronze/Iron transition - it seems at plain Iron Age they migrated weswards and stayed in Kama/Byelaya region (Bashkiria: Y-R1b? needs subclades); during these periods they had possible contacts with Southern Steppes people climbed northwards, even of possible Caucasus origin (I-Eans?) - They mixed later with Central Asia Turkic tribes too. Their language shows turkic (breeding, agriculture) and iranic words, confirmed by anthropological studies (Turanid/Pamirid types) - So yes, the final rush was short, but it concenred only a little part of their long migration towards West. If I rely on Péter Hajdù (1980). And they had a long time to cross with others.


in these regions they were already in position to have contact with people of the southern Steppes (and I-Eans?); their strong 'europoid' componants are not debt to hazard -

Maciamo
05-11-16, 16:44
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-DISCUSSION-THREAD-FOR-quot-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-quot/page18
"2 haplotypes match the typical I2-M423 haplotype common among Slavic speakers. The other 2 match R1b-U106. I have a hard time believing either group inhabited southern Siberia, so I'm doubtful either really represents a conquering Hungarian from Siberia. However, it appears some of the mtDNA haplotypes are A, and B, so on the maternal side there might be some argument there."

I2-M423 and R1b-U106 were almost certainly both present in Hungary before the Magyars arrived. They would have been brought respectively by the Slavic migrations and the Germanic migrations a few centuries earlier. But both of them would also have been found further east, e.g. in Ukraine, and it's not impossible that these specific samples were really invaders from the north-east. It's just that they weren't true Magyars but were assimilated on the way from Siberia to Hungary.

LeBrok
05-11-16, 17:57
Are they talking about Magyar or Hungarian elite (Ungar, Ugur - Turkic?)

gyms
05-11-16, 18:07
I2-M423 and R1b-U106 were almost certainly both present in Hungary before the Magyars arrived. They would have been brought respectively by the Slavic migrations and the Germanic migrations a few centuries earlier. But both of them would also have been found further east, e.g. in Ukraine, and it's not impossible that these specific samples were really invaders from the north-east. It's just that they weren't true Magyars but were assimilated on the way from Siberia to Hungary.
Whatif they were Onogurs?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onogurs

"We present 17 mtDNA haplotypes
and four Y-chromosome haplogroups, which portray the
genetic composition of an entire small cemetery of the first
generation Hungarians."

gyms
05-11-16, 18:19
The exonym (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonym) "Hungarian" is thought to be derived from Ugor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugrians) or the Bulgar-Turkic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgar_language) On-Ogur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onogurs) (meaning "ten" Ogurs),[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians#cite_note-A_History_of_Hungary-29) which was the name of the tribes who joined the Bulgar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars) tribal confederacy that ruled the eastern parts of Hungary after the Avars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Avars). Nonetheless, written sources called Magyars "Hungarians" prior to the conquest of the Carpathian Basin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin) (in 837 "Ungri" mentioned by Georgius Monachus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgius_Monachus), in 862 "Ungri" by Annales Bertiniani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annales_Bertiniani), in 881 "Ungari" by the Annales ex Annalibus Iuvavensibus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annales_ex_Annalibus_Iuvavensibus)) when they still lived on the steppes of Eastern Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etelk%C3%B6z) eastward from the Carpathians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Mountains). The Hungarians probably belonged to the Onogur tribal alliance, and it is possible that they became its ethnic majority.[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians#cite_note-A_History_of_Hungary-29) In the Early Middle Ages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Middle_Ages) the Hungarians had many different names, such as "Ungherese" (in Italian) or Ungar (in German) or Hungarus.[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians#cite_note-30) The "H-" prefix is an addition in Medieval Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Latin).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians

gyms
05-11-16, 18:32
Observations on anthropological research concerning the
period of Hungarian conquest and the Arpadian age


http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-95.pdf (http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-95.pdf)

The work of Tibor Tóth extended the range of investigations
(Tóth 1958, 1965, 1973). In his opinion the conquering
Hungarians came to a relatively similar morphological
environment in the central Danubian Basin. Later on their
Mongolid character faded. Their ethnogenesis had already
taken place in the North-Caspian region. In 1992, he reworded
his earlier observations. As opposed to former opinions, he
thought that the elements of the Mongolid great-race had
been as completely insignificant in the ethnic composition
of the conquering Hungarians as in that of the Avar Khaganat,
and also in other, “historic populations of the 2nd millennium
AD”. He interpreted the Hungarian conquest as the last
migration wave of the Europid Pontic race proceeding from
the North Caspian region into the Central Danubian region.

LeBrok
05-11-16, 18:34
The exonym (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exonym) "Hungarian" is thought to be derived from Ugor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugrians) or the Bulgar-Turkic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgar_language) On-Ogur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onogurs) (meaning "ten" Ogurs),[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians#cite_note-A_History_of_Hungary-29) which was the name of the tribes who joined the Bulgar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars) tribal confederacy that ruled the eastern parts of Hungary after the Avars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Avars). Nonetheless, written sources called Magyars "Hungarians" prior to the conquest of the Carpathian Basin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin) (in 837 "Ungri" mentioned by Georgius Monachus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgius_Monachus), in 862 "Ungri" by Annales Bertiniani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annales_Bertiniani), in 881 "Ungari" by the Annales ex Annalibus Iuvavensibus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annales_ex_Annalibus_Iuvavensibus)) when they still lived on the steppes of Eastern Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etelk%C3%B6z) eastward from the Carpathians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Mountains). The Hungarians probably belonged to the Onogur tribal alliance, and it is possible that they became its ethnic majority.[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians#cite_note-A_History_of_Hungary-29) In the Early Middle Ages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Middle_Ages) the Hungarians had many different names, such as "Ungherese" (in Italian) or Ungar (in German) or Hungarus.[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians#cite_note-30) The "H-" prefix is an addition in Medieval Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Latin).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians

They say that it was cementary from year 895. So probably it is about new arrivals the Magyars, from much closer by.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5MN5ZJKiyiI/UOhIoXFWBnI/AAAAAAAAAFY/DoPWugk-eDY/s1600/Hungarian_migration-Settlement.jpg

berun
05-11-16, 18:40
Please, spare me your cheap and sad sarcasm, it's really rude and out of topic when you talk about an early medieval culture and link it unlogically to a prehystoric culture to denigrate other people's thoughts.

Sorry for the uneasyness, maybe you might develop a deeper thinking to understand the irony. Take it easy.

MOESAN
06-11-16, 19:12
Observations on anthropological research concerning the
period of Hungarian conquest and the Arpadian age


http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-95.pdf (http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-95.pdf)

The work of Tibor Tóth extended the range of investigations
(Tóth 1958, 1965, 1973). In his opinion the conquering
Hungarians came to a relatively similar morphological
environment in the central Danubian Basin. Later on their
Mongolid character faded. Their ethnogenesis had already
taken place in the North-Caspian region. In 1992, he reworded
his earlier observations. As opposed to former opinions, he
thought that the elements of the Mongolid great-race had
been as completely insignificant in the ethnic composition
of the conquering Hungarians as in that of the Avar Khaganat,
and also in other, “historic populations of the 2nd millennium
AD”. He interpreted the Hungarian conquest as the last
migration wave of the Europid Pontic race proceeding from
the North Caspian region into the Central Danubian region.


Concerning Onogur (I had red it in Wiki) it seems almost evident it's the basis of their exonym (h)Ungarian - From what I red, the Magyars elites had incorporated a great proportion of turkic speaking tribes themselves already well mixed with Central Asia I-E speaking tribes ('europoids' hyper-dominant) ; seemingly Avars in Hungaru cimeteries elites were mixed, but had kept more diverse 'east-asian' types ('sinid', 'mongolid' and siberian 'tungid' less mongoloid types);

MOESAN
06-11-16, 19:22
borderline: 'bulgar' gave the french word "bougre" (pejorative qualificative for peopl= 'ned', 'hooligan', like "vandal" or "apache" before being softened in meaning: "un bon bougre") - 'hungarian' gave french "hongre" concerning castrated stallions... for the fun.

Milan
06-11-16, 19:31
borderline: 'bulgar' gave the french word "bougre" (pejorative qualificative for peopl= 'ned', 'hooligan', like "vandal" or "apache" before being softened in meaning: "un bon bougre") - 'hungarian' gave french "hongre" concerning castrated stallions... for the fun.

French bougre also English bugger come from the ethnic term Bulgarian catching derogatory "heretic" due to Bogomils,see Cathars in France.

Milan
06-11-16, 19:50
Concerning Onogur (I had red it in Wiki) it seems almost evident it's the basis of their exonym (h)Ungarian - From what I red, the Magyars elites had incorporated a great proportion of turkic speaking tribes themselves already well mixed with Central Asia I-E speaking tribes ('europoids' hyper-dominant) ; seemingly Avars in Hungaru cimeteries elites were mixed, but had kept more diverse 'east-asian' types ('sinid', 'mongolid' and siberian 'tungid' less mongoloid types);

Onogur was name of Bulgars also old great Bulgaria in today Ukraine and Russia centered in Phanagoria was known as Patria Onoguria,many historians including emperor Constantine said that's how Bulgars called themselves earlier,how they become associated with or "formed" alliance and becomed Bulgarians is unclear.

johen
06-11-16, 20:45
Concerning Onogur (I had red it in Wiki) it seems almost evident it's the basis of their exonym (h)Ungarian - From what I red, the Magyars elites had incorporated a great proportion of turkic speaking tribes themselves already well mixed with Central Asia I-E speaking tribes ('europoids' hyper-dominant) ; seemingly Avars in Hungaru cimeteries elites were mixed, but had kept more diverse 'east-asian' types ('sinid', 'mongolid' and siberian 'tungid' less mongoloid

- the Avars were first to bring Spangelhem style helmets into Europe, which was used by all Germanic tribes

6c Avar helmet
http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/Avar2.jpg



1c ancient korean helmet
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Korea-Gaya_Warrior.jpg

holderlin
07-11-16, 05:53
There had been so much mixing by this time that this shouldn't come a huge surprise.

Siberians had been mixing with Iranians (certainly Tocharians too) since we moved into the Iron age. And this was a group that was living after the Hunnic migrations, which itself consisted of not only Turkics speakers, but Germans, Iranians and others.

dnaforensicslab
07-11-16, 08:21
The Avars were first to bring Spangelhem style helmets into Europe, which was used by all Germanic tribes

6c Avar helmet is great

berun
07-11-16, 08:53
By the way till reading the paper as to know if the type of cemetery correspond to Magyars or locals it's not sure that such DNA was aloctone.

The Y DNA samples can't be trusted as to be from true Magyars:

http://www.turautak.com/cikkek/latnivalok/tortenelmi-emlekhelyek/karos--honfoglalas-kori-temeto.html

http://hegyinyaralo.uw.hu/programok/karos.html

I only see a kurgan in such cemetery, the other burials are not like those of the Ural Magyars.

gyms
07-11-16, 12:29
http://www.zemplen.hu/turisztika/bodrogkoz_e.htm

A cemetery dating from the time of the conquest containing significant artifacts was unearthed by archeologists in 1986, in a place called Karos within the Bodrogköz. The artifacts were that of conquerors from the historical Etelköz and it was an astounding finding indeed. Nicely decorated hilts and daggers, quivers, bows, fitted belts, splendid harnesses, gold and silver jewelry, ornaments, Italian and arabic coins, pearls, goldplated headpieces and much more were found.

http://www.zemplen.org/en/11-hirek/440-a-piece-of-history-honfoglalas-kori-latogato-kozpont-in-karos

At border of the village, was an excavated one of the richest ancient cemeteries. The artifacts found show that the conquering Hungarians ruling and grand prince of this region built the first center. It is important proof that the Bodrogköz was one of the conquering Hungarians first premises.

What kurgans?

A kurgan (Russian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language): курга́н) is a tumulus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus), a type of burial mound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_mound) or barrow, heaped over a burial chamber, often of wood.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan#cite_note-1) The Russian noun, which is already attested in Old East Slavic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_East_Slavic), is borrowed from an unidentified Turkic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_languages) language,[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan#cite_note-2) compare Modern Turkish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language) kurğan, which means "fortress". They are mounds of earth and stones raised over a grave or graves. Associated with its use in Soviet archaeology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_archaeology), the word is now widely used for tumuli in the context of Eastern European and Central Asian archaeology.
The earliest kurgans date to the 4th millennium BC in the Caucasus,[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan#cite_note-FOOTNOTEKipfer2000291-3) and are associated with the Indo-Europeans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMalloryAdams1997339-4) Kurgans were built in the Eneolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eneolithic), Bronze (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age), Iron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age), Antiquity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_antiquity) and Middle Ages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Age), with ancient traditions still active in Southern Siberia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia) and Central Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia). Kurgan cultures are divided archeologically into different sub-cultures, such as Timber Grave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubna_culture), Pit Grave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_Grave), Scythian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian), Sarmatian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatian), Hunnish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunnish) and Kuman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans)-Kipchak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipchak_people).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan

gyms
07-11-16, 12:40
berun:"The Y DNA samples can't be trusted as to be from true Magyars"
Who are the true Magyars?

Brennos
07-11-16, 13:22
berun:"The Y DNA samples can't be trusted as to be from true Magyars"
Who are the true Magyars?

Don't worry about Berun... Everything is r1b and connected with cultures of conquerors is false for him. If there were quivers and weapons, I want to know if they are found in the four males' tombs... this would be a correct way to know if they were magyars, i.e. to link material culture with genetics. Obviously, a biased person like our friend only thinks about the dna (with a lot of prejudice) and not both the dna AND the archaelogical environment.


I also wanted to point out that, according to Maciamo's maps, r-u106 isn't so spread and common in Hungary. So is i2 of that subclade.

Brennos
07-11-16, 13:29
Sorry for the uneasyness, maybe you might develop a deeper thinking to understand the irony. Take it easy.

I'm so sorry, but it isn't a problem to develop a deeper thinking... It's a matter to be honest and not clowns. If you were serious, then you would put on the table better arguments than "it's r1b, so it is impossible"... But I know that is even impossible for your biased way of thinking that a thought different from "r1b is shit" is very far from being real.

gyms
07-11-16, 14:06
[QUOTE=Brennos;493966]Don't worry about Berun... Everything is r1b and connected with cultures of conquerors is false for him. If there were quivers and weapons, I want to know if they are found in the four males' tombs... this would be a correct way to know if they were magyars, i.e. to link material culture with genetics. Obviously, a biased person like our friend only thinks about the dna (with a lot of prejudice) and not both the dna AND the archaelogical environment.
THE CEMETERIES
OF THE CONQUEST PERIOD


A picture differing markedly from the other areas of the

Carpathian Basin emerges in the Upper Tisza region. The
cemeteries in this area have a conspicuously high number of
male burials (accounting for up to fifty per cent of the buri-
als) equipped with a wide array of weapons. Almost all the

men were buried with their archery equipment; sabres and
axes are also quite frequent. Their real wealth, however, is
indicated by their insignia of rank: sabretaches ornamented
with mounts or metal plaques, belt sets, sabres covered with
silver or gold plaques, bow cases fitted with mounts and lav-

ishly ornamented horse harness. These burials undoubtedly
represent the graves of the highest-ranking leaders of the
10th century Hungarians (Karos and Rakamaz; Fig. 34).



http://www.regeszet.org.hu/images/angol/a_011.pdf

berun
07-11-16, 15:34
What kurgans?

Just look at post #17; archaeologists have traced Magyars to the SW Urals and the culture there used to bury under kurgans / mounds.

berun
07-11-16, 15:35
berun:"The Y DNA samples can't be trusted as to be from true Magyars"
Who are the true Magyars?

By the time we speak those speaking Hungarian with SW Ural origins.

berun
07-11-16, 15:46
Don't worry about Berun... Everything is r1b and connected with cultures of conquerors is false for him. If there were quivers and weapons, I want to know if they are found in the four males' tombs... this would be a correct way to know if they were magyars, i.e. to link material culture with genetics. Obviously, a biased person like our friend only thinks about the dna (with a lot of prejudice) and not both the dna AND the archaelogical environment.

I don't know from where you get that I reject R1b as conquerors; just for amusement, can you explain?

Whichever the biased ideas I have, even if pissing off all archaeological data you are failing the most, why? because you just don't take into account History, and History tells us that Magyars came from SW Urals THROUGH "Ukrainan" lands in a process of two centuries, so R1b-U106 of the "Ukrainan" Gothi could be included into the Magyar advance just as they included Turkik tribes in their advance; also a lot of Germanic tribes roamed before all it in the Pannonian plains (Heruli, Lombardi, etc.) and who can say that they didn't left a genetic trace there? you? maybe they didn't carried weapons just thinking that with their brutish faces and painful shouts the enemy would flee?

berun
07-11-16, 15:51
I'm so sorry, but it isn't a problem to develop a deeper thinking... It's a matter to be honest and not clowns. If you were serious, then you would put on the table better arguments than "it's r1b, so it is impossible"... But I know that is even impossible for your biased way of thinking that a thought different from "r1b is shit" is very far from being real.

Well, before to develop deeper thinking you might try to develop reading-the-post-before-post-nonsense.

My biased way of thinking is based on an occult agenda titled "Occam's Razor", so even if Vikings (U106) were doing a lot of things in Russia by then, so that could arrive U106 to SW Urals, to me is more easy to cut all it simply thinking that such U106 is local or came by "Ukrainan" Gothi that addered the Magyar wave of advance.

Maybe the problem is that I read more than you about history.

gyms
07-11-16, 16:15
By the time we speak those speaking Hungarian with SW Ural origins.

The Finno-Ugrian theory is based on the hypothetical family-tree model and chronology of the Indo-European ethno-linguistic group's evolution (17). The family-tree model assumes that the members of a defined ethno-linguistic group originated from a common ancestral people which spoke a common ancestral language and lived in a common ancestral homeland from which various groups migrated to form the distinct branches of an ethno-linguistic family. Thus, the Finno-Ugrian theory states that the Finno-Ugrian group separated from the ancestral Uralic group between 5000 and 4000 BC; between 3000 and 2000 BC the Finnic and Ugrian branches separated, and around 1000 BC the "proto-Hungarians" separated from the "Ob-Ugrians" and migrated Westward (18). However, the validity of this monolithic family-tree model has been increasingly questioned by several researchers, including some Indo-European scholars (19).
http://www.hunmagyar.org/tor/controve.htm

http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/hunspir/hsp05.htm

http://assets.cambridge.org/97805216/61423/sample/9780521661423ws.pdf

http://www.regeszet.org.hu/images/angol/a_011.pdf

http://www.chicagohungarians.com/radics/Origin1.htm (http://www.chicagohungarians.com/radics/Origin1.htm)

As you can see there is lots of theories and stereotyps about the origins of Hungarians.Make your choice.

berun
07-11-16, 16:24
However, the validity of this monolithic family-tree model has been increasingly questioned by several researchers, including some Indo-European scholars (19).

http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/hunspir/hsp05.htm

http://assets.cambridge.org/97805216/61423/sample/9780521661423ws.pdf

http://www.regeszet.org.hu/images/angol/a_011.pdf

http://www.chicagohungarians.com/radics/Origin1.htm (http://www.chicagohungarians.com/radics/Origin1.htm)

As you can see there is lots of theories and stereotyps about the origins of Hungarians.Make your choice.

The first link that you give us to read states:


Magyar - can greatly facilitate the deciphering of Sumerian writings. Cunei form writing was used by the Hungarians long before their arrival in the Carpathian Basin, and afterwards as well.

To discuss history and ancient genetics it's OK to me, but I'm not willing to expend time with bullshit or bullshit eaters.

gyms
07-11-16, 16:56
To discuss history and ancient genetics it's OK to me, but I'm not willing to expend time with bullshit or bullshit eaters.

Perfect choice,berun.Same here.

Brennos
07-11-16, 17:12
I don't know from where you get that I reject R1b as conquerors; just for amusement, can you explain?

Whichever the biased ideas I have, even if pissing off all archaeological data you are failing the most, why? because you just don't take into account History, and History tells us that Magyars came from SW Urals THROUGH "Ukrainan" lands in a process of two centuries, so R1b-U106 of the "Ukrainan" Gothi could be included into the Magyar advance just as they included Turkik tribes in their advance; also a lot of Germanic tribes roamed before all it in the Pannonian plains (Heruli, Lombardi, etc.) and who can say that they didn't left a genetic trace there? you? maybe they didn't carried weapons just thinking that with their brutish faces and painful shouts the enemy would flee?

You seem very sure to state that Gothi were R-U106... were are the sources? Even in the Urals there are traces of R-U106... not only in Ukraine. As the study states, all the individuals were different autosomally from modern Hungarians... so also those I2 and R-U106 guys.

Angela
07-11-16, 17:32
Gentlemen, no more foul language, and enough with the insults on this thread. Make your points in a civil manner. Am I clear?

Sile
07-11-16, 17:59
You seem very sure to state that Gothi were R-U106... were are the sources? Even in the Urals there are traces of R-U106... not only in Ukraine. As the study states, all the individuals were different autosomally from modern Hungarians... so also those I2 and R-U106 guys.

Dr. McDonalds analysis

U106 men in eastern Europe tend to be dominated by a small number of haplogroups. Most notably, these are Z326 (circa 1300 BC, peak frequency in Germany) and FGC8590 (circa 300 BC, peak frequency in the Baltic States). Z326 is common in south eastern Europe; FGC8590 is common in north eastern Europe. They probably represent the result of two different migrations. The timing and exact origin of the Z326 migration is unclear, but the timing of the FGC8590 migration seems tied to its origin, so around 2000 years ago. I have previously associated it with the movement of the Gothic peoples into this region. In modern north-eastern Hungarian populations, it is likely that these two sub-clades make up around 1/3 of the U106 population. Some of the clades in the other 2/3 are likely to be tied to the same two migrations.

U106 is very rare in the Caspian-Pontic steppe, as the authors note. It's therefore likely that these two individuals represent native European populations, again as the authors note. However, it is possible that some of the Hun invaders represented the descendants of the original Gothic tribes that populated the Black Sea coasts in the 3rd century AD. Further resolution beyond S21 would be interesting, however it is likely that there would be no call on these results, and little possibility of extraction from the remaining samples. It is a shame they didn't manage to fully sequence them.

berun
07-11-16, 19:15
You seem very sure to state that Gothi were R-U106... were are the sources? Even in the Urals there are traces of R-U106... not only in Ukraine. As the study states, all the individuals were different autosomally from modern Hungarians... so also those I2 and R-U106 guys.

Thes sources are the logics: RISE98, the first U106 known, was found in Sweden (the country were the Gothi came out, from actual Gothaland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geats)), there is no ancient DNA from the diverse samples taken in European Russia and Hungary of the Bronce Age / Iron Age / Middle Ages till 900 AD providing U106, and U106 is a typical clade of the Germanic peoples, so that one in five is U106 in Sweden... so simple logics are quite practical in this case.

For the differences in autosomals... it even makes more strong the case that such "Magyars" were a composite tribe by the time that they reached the Pannonian plain. In fact what pushed them westwards would have pushed also other steppe tribes with them, so that the next step would be to make a "joint venture".

Brennos
07-11-16, 21:01
Gentlemen, no more foul language, and enough with the insults on this thread. Make your points in a civil manner. Am I clear?

Of course...

Brennos
07-11-16, 21:09
Thes sources are the logics: RISE98, the first U106 known, was found in Sweden (the country were the Gothi came out, from actual Gothaland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geats)), there is no ancient DNA from the diverse samples taken in European Russia and Hungary of the Bronce Age / Iron Age / Middle Ages till 900 AD providing U106, and U106 is a typical clade of the Germanic peoples, so that one in five is U106 in Sweden... so simple logics are quite practical in this case.

For the differences in autosomals... it even makes more strong the case that such "Magyars" were a composite tribe by the time that they reached the Pannonian plain. In fact what pushed them westwards would have pushed also other steppe tribes with them, so that the next step would be to make a "joint venture".

Logic isn't a reliable source, and even your Occam Razor isn't. For example: a certain surname was born in place A and then some people bearing that surname moved in places B and C. In the mean time, people in place A haven't less male heirs and the surname disappear. Instead, people in places B and C are flourishing and some other people bearing that surname move in places D and E. In two centuries we will have that surname only in place E. This is the history of many surnames in my area, even noble ones and mostly peasant ones. Then, put a haplogroup instead of the surname and, obviously, forget the documents that can help us to build a surname history. Without any document, how can you say with a certain degree of certainty that an haplogroup, like a surname, existing in a place is obviously native of that region?

Then, I agree with you that Magyars were a composite tribe, but I can't discard the possibility that those I2 and R-U106 could come from the Urals too, given also the fact that we haven't got Gothic Y-DNA.

Brennos
07-11-16, 21:15
Dr. McDonalds analysis

U106 men in eastern Europe tend to be dominated by a small number of haplogroups. Most notably, these are Z326 (circa 1300 BC, peak frequency in Germany) and FGC8590 (circa 300 BC, peak frequency in the Baltic States). Z326 is common in south eastern Europe; FGC8590 is common in north eastern Europe. They probably represent the result of two different migrations. The timing and exact origin of the Z326 migration is unclear, but the timing of the FGC8590 migration seems tied to its origin, so around 2000 years ago. I have previously associated it with the movement of the Gothic peoples into this region. In modern north-eastern Hungarian populations, it is likely that these two sub-clades make up around 1/3 of the U106 population. Some of the clades in the other 2/3 are likely to be tied to the same two migrations.

U106 is very rare in the Caspian-Pontic steppe, as the authors note. It's therefore likely that these two individuals represent native European populations, again as the authors note. However, it is possible that some of the Hun invaders represented the descendants of the original Gothic tribes that populated the Black Sea coasts in the 3rd century AD. Further resolution beyond S21 would be interesting, however it is likely that there would be no call on these results, and little possibility of extraction from the remaining samples. It is a shame they didn't manage to fully sequence them.

Really impressive, but this is an analysis on modern samples, or not? If yes, so I can't take it for sure... only ancient DNA can give a full answer. Obviously, that is the point I wanted to underline, is that Magyar lite could integrate only other people's lite... so those I2 and R-U106 were among the lite. Also Lombards assimilated many tribes in their migrations and their lite was also formed by italics when they arrived in Italy... see that study on the Partecipanze in San Giovanni in Persiceto by Boattini.

berun
08-11-16, 11:53
Logic isn't a reliable source, and even your Occam Razor isn't. For example: a certain surname was born in place A and then some people bearing that surname moved in places B and C. In the mean time, people in place A haven't less male heirs and the surname disappear. Instead, people in places B and C are flourishing and some other people bearing that surname move in places D and E. In two centuries we will have that surname only in place E. This is the history of many surnames in my area, even noble ones and mostly peasant ones. Then, put a haplogroup instead of the surname and, obviously, forget the documents that can help us to build a surname history. Without any document, how can you say with a certain degree of certainty that an haplogroup, like a surname, existing in a place is obviously native of that region?

Then, I agree with you that Magyars were a composite tribe, but I can't discard the possibility that those I2 and R-U106 could come from the Urals too, given also the fact that we haven't got Gothic Y-DNA.

It will be quite poetical, but it's not the same how a fallen leaf goes on with the wind as goes a fallen tree...

I'm not denying that such U106 came from Urals, but it is much less provable with actual data, being autochtone or Gothic DNA is the best explanation.

Aaron1981
08-11-16, 15:35
Gothic is best explained for R1b-U106, Slavic best explained for the I2-M423. I'm not sure why people argue the most obvious answer. There is no evidence these men arrived first generation from south Siberia.

gyms
08-11-16, 18:08
Gothic is best explained for R1b-U106, Slavic best explained for the I2-M423. I'm not sure why people argue the most obvious answer. There is no evidence these men arrived first generation from south Siberia.

Extremly logical argument.Can you prove that?
The most obvious answer is:NO.

Brennos
08-11-16, 20:57
Extremly logical argument.Can you prove that?
The most obvious answer is:NO.

Thanks, Gyms... I couldn't express myself with better words.

Brennos
08-11-16, 21:02
Gothic is best explained for R1b-U106, Slavic best explained for the I2-M423. I'm not sure why people argue the most obvious answer. There is no evidence these men arrived first generation from south Siberia.

They said that Yamnaya was best explained with a possible R1a... then R1b appeared and many people, who in their stubborn behaviour would have put their hands on fire like Mutius Scaevola in confirming that R1a would have appeared in Yamna culture, were (and some, I think, are) simply crying like babies without their favourite toy.

The evidence they were first generation Hugarians is inside the archaelogical environment: they were buried in a first generation graveyard. I don't know... is it so difficult to read and understand the paper? I don't find so strange that R-U106 and I-M423 were found among first Hungarians... we have those haplogroups in the Urals too. Obviously, a deeper analysis of the samples would help us to determine the exact subclade and tye it to a geographical area.

GloomyGonzales
08-11-16, 22:32
They said that Yamnaya was best explained with a possible R1a... then R1b appeared and many people, who in their stubborn behaviour would have put their hands on fire like Mutius Scaevola in confirming that R1a would have appeared in Yamna culture, were (and some, I think, are) simply crying like babies without their favourite toy.

The evidence they were first generation Hugarians is inside the archaelogical environment: they were buried in a first generation graveyard. I don't know... is it so difficult to read and understand the paper? I don't find so strange that R-U106 and I-M423 were found among first Hungarians... we have those haplogroups in the Urals too. Obviously, a deeper analysis of the samples would help us to determine the exact subclade and tye it to a geographical area.

We have only aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture and for a while we have a lot of reasons to belive that the western part of Yamnaya culture was populated predominantly by R1a folks. So it would be guys like you who would cry like babies when we get results of aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture.

Authentic Hungarians surely were not bearers of R-U106 and I-M423 subclades. Those R-U106 and I-M423 guys were just local folks subdued by their Hungarian masters. I guess it's pretty much obvious.

LeBrok
09-11-16, 03:42
We have only aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture and for a while we have a lot of reasons to belive that the western part of Yamnaya culture was populated predominantly by R1a folks. So it would be guys like you who would cry like babies when we get results of aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture.

Authentic Hungarians surely were not bearers of R-U106 and I-M423 subclades. Those R-U106 and I-M423 guys were just local folks subdued by their Hungarian masters. I guess it's pretty much obvious.
Lot's of speculations to believe that the western part of Yamnaya Culture was populated by western clades of R1b. Let's wait and see.

gyms
09-11-16, 12:33
We have only aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture and for a while we have a lot of reasons to belive that the western part of Yamnaya culture was populated predominantly by R1a folks. So it would be guys like you who would cry like babies when we get results of aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture.

Authentic Hungarians surely were not bearers of R-U106 and I-M423 subclades. Those R-U106 and I-M423 guys were just local folks subdued by their Hungarian masters. I guess it's pretty much obvious.

"Authentic Hungarians..." ???
What are you talkig about? Who are the authentic Germans and Russians?This is about genetics,please
stop any manifestations of chauvinism and xenophobia!

Brennos
09-11-16, 14:50
We have only aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture and for a while we have a lot of reasons to belive that the western part of Yamnaya culture was populated predominantly by R1a folks. So it would be guys like you who would cry like babies when we get results of aDNA from the eastern part of Yamnaya culture.

Authentic Hungarians surely were not bearers of R-U106 and I-M423 subclades. Those R-U106 and I-M423 guys were just local folks subdued by their Hungarian masters. I guess it's pretty much obvious.

And have you got a crystal sphere to foresee the results? Wrong attack, my dear and offensive friend: I'm neither R1a nor R1b, so I don't give a cent to those haplogroups history. But I see that there are people here that put all their expectations on their forgotten past, as if they have a really terrible present and their reason of life is to state: "I'm R1a or R1b... And I descend from IE, so I'm superior to everyone here".

Your last words ("those r-u106 and i-m423 guys were just local folks subdued by their hungarian masters") speak for themselves in defining the kind of person you are in dealing with genetics. And, of course, the kind of grave goods in those r-u106 and i-m424 graves also speak for itself: how locals subdued to hungarian masters got hungarian burial type and ethnic goods? A first generation graveyard has first generation corpses and their ethnic affiliation, especially the males, bearers of arms, must be clear... Yes, of course, clear to unbiased people.

Bollox79
09-11-16, 17:23
I am just glad they found a couple more ancient (well not particularly ancient - more early to high middle ages) dna positive for U106! It's too bad they were not able to test for more resolution... I hope every study in the future uses the petrous bone of the inner ear (if it's available - I suppose that's the issue) for testing like they did for the Driffield Terrace Roman era Skeletons. I would have liked to know their subgrouping. Speaking of those Driffield guys - 3drif-16 (not the outlier from the east) and 6drif-3 match each other on U106 - Z381 - Z156 - Z304/305/306/307 and both have autosomal connections to the Baltic (Lithuania in the graphic - 6drif-3's 3rd closest pop behind Irish and Welsh is Lithuanian and 3drif-16's 2nd pop is Lithuanian I believe along with Scottish and Welsh). So it would "appear" (how much can we read into that - is it picking up old admixture like the POBI could tease out of many of the areas of the Isles?) that they may have come from the Baltic? I personally match both to Z304-307 - then match 6drif-3 further with these SNPs: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z304/306-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817. 3drif-16 is positive for DF96 - which is the brother/sister clade of DF98 (6drif-3 was positive for DF98) and probably L1 under that. The interesting thing is that Dr. Iain McDonald has dated S4004 and L1 to around the same time (of course there is a couple hundred years of give or take) so are they from the same tribe or tribes? Seems likely.

That made me consider the fact that while DF98 (that's House of Wettin - they are another subgroup brother clade to S1911) currently clusters along the Upper Rhine in modern samples... these early Roman era samples show some connection to the East. I suppose I'm not that surprised that some U106 showed up in NE Hungary around the late 800s into the 900s... for me it just makes it all the more interesting that it was found there in a cool cemetery with weapons etc.

Besides I like reading the discussions ;-).

Cheers!

MarkoZ
09-11-16, 21:05
Your last words ("those r-u106 and i-m423 guys were just local folks subdued by their hungarian masters") speak for themselves in defining the kind of person you are in dealing with genetics. And, of course, the kind of grave goods in those r-u106 and i-m424 graves also speak for itself: how locals subdued to hungarian masters got hungarian burial type and ethnic goods? A first generation graveyard has first generation corpses and their ethnic affiliation, especially the males, bearers of arms, must be clear... Yes, of course, clear to unbiased people.

I think that on the contrary it is the people who like to imagine every conflict in prehistory & ancient times as a sort of proto-race-war who are committing a serious error. We know many examples of warlike tribes from central-eastern Eurasia who were quite willing to integrate foreign men into their tribal structures. Mostly everyone knows that the Mongols had no qualms in this regard. The Turks, even after they had adopted Islam and founded a settled empire, promoted meritorious men from de facto subdued populations in the Caucasus and the Balkans at the expense of their 'kin' to the point that it became a problem of internal politics & source of instability.

The actual question should be why the status symbols & weaponry typical of the Hungarians wouldn't have been inherited across 'racial' barriers.

Brennos
09-11-16, 21:30
I think that on the contrary it is the people who like to imagine every conflict in prehistory & ancient times as a sort of proto-race-war who are committing a serious error. We know many examples of warlike tribes from central-eastern Eurasia who were quite willing to integrate foreign men into their tribal structures. Mostly everyone knows that the Mongols had no qualms in this regard. The Turks, even after they had adopted Islam and founded a settled empire, promoted meritorious men from de facto subdued populations in the Caucasus and the Balkans at the expense of their 'kin' to the point that it became a problem of internal politics & source of instability.

The actual question should be why the status symbols & weaponry typical of the Huns wouldn't have been inheritted across 'racial' barriers.

Sure, also many poor Europeans made their way among the Turks and became very important people in the imperial institution.

And I'm open to the possibility - and, really, reality - that those R-U106 and I2a men were germanic and slavic aristocrats who married Hungarian females with the nulla osta from their Hungarian fathers. The mixing of the lites was very widespread: in Italy the Frankish nobility was open to marriage with the older and culturally more advanced Italic aristocracy, in France the same, in the Visigothic Spain the same. The thing I wanted to point out are the words Gloomygonzales used... it seem a sort of race purity and superiority manifesto!

The actual question, in my opinion, is why foreigners from "subdued" populations were well integrated in the upper class of conquerors and were buried with arms that were, at that period, the symbols of a man belonging to the upper class of warriors. I was suggesting that we found also R1b in mongolian aristocrats, but we don't know their subclade. So, in my opinion, we can't discard the possibility those R-U106 men (and, of course, those I2a men) were from Urals.

MarkoZ
09-11-16, 22:12
Sure, also many poor Europeans made their way among the Turks and became very important people in the imperial institution.

And I'm open to the possibility - and, really, reality - that those R-U106 and I2a men were germanic and slavic aristocrats who married Hungarian females with the nulla osta from their Hungarian fathers. The mixing of the �lites was very widespread: in Italy the Frankish nobility was open to marriage with the older and culturally more advanced Italic aristocracy, in France the same, in the Visigothic Spain the same. The thing I wanted to point out are the words Gloomygonzales used... it seem a sort of race purity and superiority manifesto!

The actual question, in my opinion, is why foreigners from "subdued" populations were well integrated in the upper class of conquerors and were buried with arms that were, at that period, the symbols of a man belonging to the upper class of warriors. I was suggesting that we found also R1b in mongolian aristocrats, but we don't know their subclade. So, in my opinion, we can't discard the possibility those R-U106 men (and, of course, those I2a men) were from Urals.

I think one would be mistaken to talk about 'aristocracies' among those nomadic peoples. A rather fluid type of social organization would be probably have been more appropriate for their mode of subsistence. The interaction with foreigners would have been less reminiscent of the War of the Roses than the scenario you have mind, then.

Brennos
10-11-16, 07:38
I think one would be mistaken to talk about 'aristocracies' among those nomadic peoples. A rather fluid type of social organization would be probably have been more appropriate for their mode of subsistence. The interaction with foreigners would have been less reminiscent of the War of the Roses than the scenario you have mind, then.

Yes and no: aristocracy existed also among nomadic peoples. The differences between aristocracies were in the way to recognize honours. For example, the Frankish nobility and the Lombard one were tyed to family blood: in the first case also the king was elected in a dynastic way, in the second, however, the election of the king/chief was a matter of choosing among the noblest aristocrats... So there must have existed a sort of aristocracy also among nomadic peoples. Why it must have been different among hungarians? Also among Mongolians, we see that there was an aristocracy well defined by their symbols in clothes and jewels and they were nomadic.

Then, I can trust you on the fact aristocracy was less pronounced among nomadic peoples... Germanic tribes were composed by freemen and the aristocrats were hard to be defined among those freemen. But they existed, as in all human societies.

gyms
10-11-16, 10:14
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0074-02762006001000019

The sample examined consists of 19 skulls with symbolic trephinations and 86 skulls without trepanations dated from the X century. Skulls were all excavated in the Great Hungarian Plain in the Carpathian Basin, which was occupied by the Hungarian conquerors at the end of the IX century. The variations of 12 cranial dimensions of the trephined skulls were investigated and compared to the skulls without trepanations after performing a discriminant analysis. The classification results evince that the variability of non-trephined skulls shows a more homogeneous and a more characteristic picture of their own group than the trephined samples, which corresponds to the notion, formed by archaeological evidence and written historical sources, of a both ethnically and socially differing population of the Hungarian conquerors. According to historical research, a part of the population was of Finno-Ugric origin, while the military leading layer of society can be brought into connection with Turkic ethnic groups. All the same, individuals dug up with rich grave furniture and supposed to belong to this upper stratum of society are primarily characterized by the custom of symbolic trephination, and, as our results demonstrate, craniologically they seem to be more heterogeneous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin
The Hungarians were organized into seven tribes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyar_tribes) that formed a confederation.[56] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin#cite_no te-FOOTNOTEMakkai199410-56) Constantine Porphyrogenitus mentions this number.[57] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin#cite_no te-FOOTNOTEKrist.C3.B31996a116.E2.80.93117-57) Anonymous seems to have preserved the Hungarian "Hetumoger" ("Seven Hungarians") denomination of the tribal confederation, although he writes of "seven leading persons"[58] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin#cite_no te-58) jointly bearing this name instead of a political organization.[57] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin#cite_no te-FOOTNOTEKrist.C3.B31996a116.E2.80.93117-57)
The Hetumoger confederation was strengthened by the arrival of the Kabars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabars),[56] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin#cite_no te-FOOTNOTEMakkai199410-56) who (according to Constantine) joined the Hungarians following their unsuccessful riot against the Khazar Khaganate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_Khaganate).[59] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin#cite_no te-FOOTNOTESpinei200351-59) The Hungarians and the Kabars are mentioned in the longer version of the Annals of Salzburg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annals_of_Salzburg),[60] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin#cite_no te-FOOTNOTER.C3.B3na-Tas1999329-60) which relates that the Hungarians fought around Vienna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna), while the Kabars fought nearby at Culmite in 881.[61] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin#cite_no te-FOOTNOTEBowlus1994237.E2.80.93238-61) Madgearu proposes that Kavar groups were already settled in the Tisza plain within the Carpathian Basin around 881, which may have given rise to the anachronistic reference to Cumans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumans) in the Gesta Hungarorum at the time of the Hungarian conquest.[62] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_conquest_of_the_Carpathian_Basin#cite_no te-FOOTNOTEMadgearu2005b34..2C_37-62)

Aaron1981
10-11-16, 16:27
The actual question, in my opinion, is why foreigners from "subdued" populations were well integrated in the upper class of conquerors and were buried with arms that were, at that period, the symbols of a man belonging to the upper class of warriors. I was suggesting that we found also R1b in mongolian aristocrats, but we don't know their subclade. So, in my opinion, we can't discard the possibility those R-U106 men (and, of course, those I2a men) were from Urals.

Actually, we do indirectly know the subclade of these specific "Royal" Mongols through haplotype comparisons on Ysearch. They fall into R1b-M478 or R1b-M73. While nothing is 100% certain without SNP testing, I think it's a pretty strong case due to the unusual haplotype characteristics of eastern branches of R1b-M478.

Going back to the Khvalynsk burial (buried with dozens of copper beads), and *most likely* King Tut, for example, R1b is found heavily among elites and the warrior class. This also appears to be the case for the R1a guys as well as we see from the R1a warrior buried in the Mongol tomb, and amongst high caste Indians in Asia.

You didn't have writing, civilization, or farming. Perhaps all you could do was fight.

Aaron1981
10-11-16, 16:42
The invading Huns would have acquired local warriors to help lead them. When riches are involved in pillaging, no doubt some men fell victim to these aspirations, perhaps even to spare loved ones. To suggest either I2-M423 or R1b-U106 originated in south Siberia is ludicrous, but it's certainly possible both M423 and U106 were picked up east of Hungary by the Hunnic invasions.

I have a sample of 39 modern Hungarian Y haplotypes from Budapest, and the R1b rate is just over 30%.

MOESAN
10-11-16, 20:13
French bougre also English bugger come from the ethnic term Bulgarian catching derogatory "heretic" due to Bogomils,see Cathars in France.


Thanks for what seems the first "second meaning" of Bulgre>>bougre - I was too lazy to go to search in my ethomogies book for french; BTW I suppose the english word is from french, based on its form?

Brennos
10-11-16, 21:02
The invading Huns would have acquired local warriors to help lead them. When riches are involved in pillaging, no doubt some men fell victim to these aspirations, perhaps even to spare loved ones. To suggest either I2-M423 or R1b-U106 originated in south Siberia is ludicrous, but it's certainly possible both M423 and U106 were picked up east of Hungary by the Hunnic invasions.

I have a sample of 39 modern Hungarian Y haplotypes from Budapest, and the R1b rate is just over 30%.

I didn't want to suggest that I2-M423 and R-U106 originated in south Siberia... I said that we can't discard the possibility some R-U106 and I-M423 men were in south Siberia at the moment Hungarians started their migration. We can't know for sure. Obviously, also for me it is better to think that R-U106 and I-M423 were picked up by Hungarians in Ukraine or somewhere in eastern Europe, but I also recognize that is is impossible to know with those analysis.

As for those mongolian aristocrats, we hope in further analysis: they have all the symbols of aristocrats of mongol background in their burials, so we can add that the population of historical mongols was pretty diverse in uniparental markers.

MOESAN
10-11-16, 21:49
- the Avars were first to bring Spangelhem style helmets into Europe, which was used by all Germanic tribes

6c Avar helmet
http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/Avar2.jpg



1c ancient korean helmet
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Korea-Gaya_Warrior.jpg

Interesting; but I'm not sure it became the "national" helmet of all Germanic tribes; perhaps only the ones which were in close contact to Asian hords, lately?

MOESAN
10-11-16, 22:17
Logic isn't a reliable source, and even your Occam Razor isn't. For example: a certain surname was born in place A and then some people bearing that surname moved in places B and C. In the mean time, people in place A haven't less male heirs and the surname disappear. Instead, people in places B and C are flourishing and some other people bearing that surname move in places D and E. In two centuries we will have that surname only in place E. This is the history of many surnames in my area, even noble ones and mostly peasant ones. Then, put a haplogroup instead of the surname and, obviously, forget the documents that can help us to build a surname history. Without any document, how can you say with a certain degree of certainty that an haplogroup, like a surname, existing in a place is obviously native of that region?

Then, I agree with you that Magyars were a composite tribe, but I can't discard the possibility that those I2 and R-U106 could come from the Urals too, given also the fact that we haven't got Gothic Y-DNA.

Agree for the general principle - the only difference is that surnames has been given at first almost without any familial links between the first bearers and that they "mutate" less often than haplos and that haplos different but close show links between them when 2 close surnames are not by force the result of familial proximity; BTW in some conservative regions the old common surnames keep still the "leadership" centuries after even if some of their "representatives" appear lately in other regions; what is not the case with rare surnames (see Cornish surnames); surnames can stay a very long time without alteration when Haplos (more the STR's) tend to change over time in a long chain of permutations.
comparisons are comparisons... a bit splitting hairs I know.

johen
13-11-16, 08:00
It would be culturally correct that maygar people came from central asia or south siberia.

Some scholars in the East Asia claimed that maygar people originated in Margal tribe to be called to be Jurichen(Jin) or Manchu people (Qing dynasty) also who ruled China two times. Sometime Jurichen was called " Khitan".
Margal hairstyle was same as the Hun's.

However, the hairstyle of Maygar was a little different.
Maygar people shaved their head except three long braids. you can see the braids of maygar horseman also.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=dvVQbhxa4OUC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=maygar+people+shaved+their+head+except+three+lo ng&source=bl&ots=BWboxLd7Mz&sig=BEnkt5hPq_jMtF4UclcfwMNIh0s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiP84-F0o_QAhVV62MKHUmyCo8Q6AEILDAF#v=onepage&q=maygar%20people%20shaved%20their%20head%20except %20three%20long&f=false

Their hairstyle was similar to avar, khitan, and mongol.
I think this kind of culture came from central Asia, the heritage of american Indian, who stayed in altai.

Maygar
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9b/Rajzom.JPG

Avar
http://kurultaj.hu/wp-content/uploads/a1-625x420.jpg

Khitan
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/MongolHuntersSong.jpg

https://www.epicureweb.fr/images/articles/PHOTO-NATIVE-AMERICAN-BRAID.jpg

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Mandan+Native+American+Man+With+Braids,+S potted+Bull&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjujIvZwKjQAhURw2MKHZRYCQcQsAQIHA&biw=911&bih=425

and Yazidi man with plaited hair. Northern Iraq:
https://s12.postimg.org/oj0m25yp9/abc.jpg

Brennos
13-11-16, 08:54
Agree for the general principle - the only difference is that surnames has been given at first almost without any familial links between the first bearers and that they "mutate" less often than haplos and that haplos different but close show links between them when 2 close surnames are not by force the result of familial proximity; BTW in some conservative regions the old common surnames keep still the "leadership" centuries after even if some of their "representatives" appear lately in other regions; what is not the case with rare surnames (see Cornish surnames); surnames can stay a very long time without alteration when Haplos (more the STR's) tend to change over time in a long chain of permutations.
comparisons are comparisons... a bit splitting hairs I know.

Ok, obviously, I was speaking about my area, where surnames exists from the X/XI century and they are generally fixed from that period, so many families can be traced until the XII/XIII century with documents.

Kristiina
14-11-16, 09:38
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-DISCUSSION-THREAD-FOR-quot-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-quot/page18
"2 haplotypes match the typical I2-M423 haplotype common among Slavic speakers. The other 2 match R1b-U106. I have a hard time believing either group inhabited southern Siberia, so I'm doubtful either really represents a conquering Hungarian from Siberia. However, it appears some of the mtDNA haplotypes are A, and B, so on the maternal side there might be some argument there."

In fact, Eastern mtDNA is present in two ancient Hungarians from Karos-Eperjesszög with yDNA R1b and I2. There are two R1b guys and their mtDNAs are H and B, and two I2a2 guys whose mtDNAs are H and A. H seems to be CRS so it could be H2a2 which is frequent on the steppe and Volga Ural where Uralic languages probably originated. On the basis of their mtDNA, these ancient Hungarians do not look local Central Europeans.

8207

gyms
14-11-16, 15:58
In fact, Eastern mtDNA is present in two ancient Hungarians from Karos-Eperjesszög with yDNA R1b and I2. There are two R1b guys and their mtDNAs are H and B, and two I2a2 guys whose mtDNAs are H and A. H seems to be CRS so it could be H2a2 which is frequent on the steppe and Volga Ural where Uralic languages probably originated. On the basis of their mtDNA, these ancient Hungarians do not look local Central Europeans.

8207
Very interesting.According to the results on the Y-DNA Haplogroup Predictor Nevgen the two I2a are I2a1b3a.But they are not relatives.Simple no.12 is Din South,simple no.17 is Din North.

Kristiina
14-11-16, 16:23
Maybe the fathers of these R1b and I2a guys became allies of Hungarians and as a confirmation of their loyalty married their daughters. In historical times, this kind of political marriages were very frequent among ruling classes.

gyms
14-11-16, 19:13
Maybe the fathers of these R1b and I2a guys became allies of Hungarians and as a confirmation of their loyalty married their daughters. In historical times, this kind of political marriages were very frequent among ruling classes.
The problem is that sample no.12 is commoner and sample no.17 is warrior.
The confederation was composed from seven Magyar tribes and other three of Khavar origin (unified into a single one).


https://scholarworks.iu.edu/journals/index.php/tmr/article/view/14950/21068

berun
14-11-16, 19:37
Maybe the fathers of these R1b and I2a guys became allies of Hungarians and as a confirmation of their loyalty married their daughters. In historical times, this kind of political marriages were very frequent among ruling classes.

Autosomal testing could answer if that is the case, if recent admixture of allied tribes or that such admixture was already done in SW Urals.

Brennos
14-11-16, 22:26
The problem is that sample no.12 is commoner and sample no.17 is warrior.
The confederation was composed from seven Magyar tribes and other three of Khavar origin (unified into a single one).


https://scholarworks.iu.edu/journals/index.php/tmr/article/view/14950/21068

Very interesting... As for the two R1b guys... were they both warriors? Or both commoners? Or else? If the guy with mtDna B is a warrior and the other isn't, so Kristiina's suggestion about marriage between lites (with the girls being true hungarians) can be the answer to our discussion.

gyms
15-11-16, 09:16
The guy (R1b) with mtDNA B is commoner,the guy with mtDNA H is warrior.It's interesting that commoners (both with R1b and I2a) belong to Asian mtDNA and warriors to the European H.

Kristiina
15-11-16, 14:35
I see that it is specifically B4c1b that was recently detected in Hungarian conquerors. B4c1b looks like coming from China and was surely not present near the Urals when Hungarian language developed. However, at some point it got out on the Eurasian steppe and is today also found in Pakistan and in Hazara.

Instead, mtDNA A is very old in Siberia (for example A10 in Western Siberia), but A is very old and frequent in North East Asia and America in general, so without a more specific subclade information the origin of this particular A is unclear. However, I see that there was at least 1 x A10, 1 x A11 and 2 x A12 in Hungarian conquerors. If this particular A is A10, it was probably present in Western Siberia where Ugric languages originated. However, there are other possibilities as well. Haplotype A12 seems to be shared with Mansi (other Ugric group), Yakuts (Turkic speakers) and Evenks (Tungusic speakers). The third possibility is A11. In Eurasia, A11 is today found in Bashkirs and it was also present in BA Tianshan Beilu Xinjiang. However, with all probability, the origin of Hungarian A is in northern Altai/Western Siberia.

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/08/08/056655.figures-only

Aaron1981
15-11-16, 15:17
The warrior elite may have sold women/wives for alliances or some sort of deals. I can't see why else armed nomads would be trekking around Eurasia with far eastern women. U106 and M423 are indigenous west of the Urals, that's for sure. Recall that Loschbour was also M423, but he was likely related to the western UK version, but with more ancestral SNPs than modern day men. The eastern version is very young - most I2-M423 men of the Balkans descend from a man who lived only 2200 years ago. (add a small buffer, but it's still very young)

LeBrok
15-11-16, 16:22
The guy (R1b) with mtDNA B is commoner,the guy with mtDNA H is warrior.It's interesting that commoners (both with R1b and I2a) belong to Asian mtDNA and warriors to the European H.


I see that it is specifically B4c1b that was recently detected in Hungarian conquerors. B4c1b looks like coming from China and was surely not present near the Urals when Hungarian language developed. However, at some point it got out on the Eurasian steppe and is today also found in Pakistan and in Hazara.

Instead, mtDNA A is very old in Siberia (for example A10 in Western Siberia), but A is very old and frequent in North East Asia and America in general, so without a more specific subclade information the origin of this particular A is unclear. However, I see that there was at least 1 x A10, 1 x A11 and 2 x A12 in Hungarian conquerors. If this particular A is A10, it was probably present in Western Siberia where Ugric languages originated. However, there are other possibilities as well. Haplotype A12 seems to be shared with Mansi (other Ugric group), Yakuts (Turkic speakers) and Evenks (Tungusic speakers). The third possibility is A11. In Eurasia, A11 is today found in Bashkirs and it was also present in BA Tianshan Beilu Xinjiang. However, with all probability, the origin of Hungarian A is in northern Altai/Western Siberia.

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/08/08/056655.figures-only
Wow, they are really a well mixed society at this point.

LeBrok
15-11-16, 16:26
The warrior elite may have sold women/wives for alliances or some sort of deals. I can't see why else armed nomads would be trekking around Eurasia with far eastern women. U106 and M423 are indigenous west of the Urals, that's for sure. Recall that Loschbour was also M423, but he was likely related to the western UK version, but with more ancestral SNPs than modern day men. The eastern version is very young - most I2-M423 men of the Balkans descend from a man who lived only 2200 years ago. (add a small buffer, but it's still very young)Perhaps their women were like Amazon warriors and took locals "grooms". Or their women took local slaves for help and pleasure?

Brennos
15-11-16, 18:55
Perhaps their women were like Amazon warriors and took locals "grooms". Or their women took local slaves for help and pleasure?

I think this is a real fantasy far from the reality and near sensibility... Probably, they had a conception of beauty by which they considered preferable women with certain features that didn't exist fully in asian stock. In fact, I think that also when the Hungarians started their migration, they were a pretty mixed society, with many phenotypes. Many phenotypes brought societies to develop the consciousness about what is beautiful and what is ugly. After all, I tend to consider Kristiina's thought: probably, also that H mtDNA haplogroup is from the Urals and, probably, the women found in the cemetery were Asian in appearence.

johen
15-11-16, 18:56
I see that it is specifically B4c1b that was recently detected in Hungarian conquerors. B4c1b looks like coming from China and was surely not present near the Urals when Hungarian language developed. However, at some point it got out on the Eurasian steppe and is today also found in Pakistan and in Hazara.

Instead, mtDNA A is very old in Siberia (for example A10 in Western Siberia), but A is very old and frequent in North East Asia and America in general, so without a more specific subclade information the origin of this particular A is unclear. However, I see that there was at least 1 x A10, 1 x A11 and 2 x A12 in Hungarian conquerors. If this particular A is A10, it was probably present in Western Siberia where Ugric languages originated. However, there are other possibilities as well. Haplotype A12 seems to be shared with Mansi (other Ugric group), Yakuts (Turkic speakers) and Evenks (Tungusic speakers). The third possibility is A11. In Eurasia, A11 is today found in Bashkirs and it was also present in BA Tianshan Beilu Xinjiang. However, with all probability, the origin of Hungarian A is in northern Altai/Western Siberia.

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/08/08/056655.figures-only

So do you mean that magyar tribe possibly came from Nor East Asia? Some of Hungarian conquerors had Hg N1c. At that time, manchu people was called "margal"(靺鞨). the hairstyle of margal and magyar were similar.
Former Hungary ambassador in korea said that 400 words of hungarian and korean are same now. He always said that his ancestor and ancient korean lived together in some area. looks like it was not ancient Korean, but manchu people.

LeBrok
15-11-16, 20:47
I think this is a real fantasy far from the reality and near sensibility... Probably, they had a conception of beauty by which they considered preferable women with certain features that didn't exist fully in asian stock. Probably not. By natural selection and cultural factors they should desire the most women of their race and ethnicity. The problem is that young warriors would hamp anything they could put their hands on. Especially when far away from their community for months.



In fact, I think that also when the Hungarians started their migration, they were a pretty mixed society, with many phenotypes. They truly seem to be well mixed, and possibly already came well mixed.

Brennos
15-11-16, 21:06
Probably not. By natural selection and cultural factors they should desire the most women of their race and ethnicity. The problem is that young warriors would hamp anything they could put their hands on. Especially when far away from their community for months.


They truly seem to be well mixed, and possibly already came well mixed.

Probably... what? A mixed society can't desire most women of their race and ethnicity, because there wasn't a race, but many. Perhaps, I can agree upon ethnicity... but only as a matter of language and culture.

LeBrok
15-11-16, 21:52
Probably... what? A mixed society can't desire most women of their race and ethnicity, because there wasn't a race, but many. That's what I said. They will desire the most women of their ethnicity and of these mixed races they are made of.


Perhaps, I can agree upon ethnicity... but only as a matter of language and culture.No? I think a woman who can cook your ethnic food, make your ethnic cloths and believes in "true" gods of your ethnic religion, have much better chance of winning your heart than others. Unless, you steal a foreign woman, and bring her to your village and to teach her your superior ethnic ways and to slave for you.

gyms
15-11-16, 22:23
Perhaps their women were like Amazon warriors and took locals "grooms". Or their women took local slaves for help and pleasure?

Myths of origin, religious elements, real or virtual borders and the practice of exogamy all played a decisive role in creating social stability and an efficiently functioning order on the steppe.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/23658343?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Kristiina
16-11-16, 09:31
No, Hungarians did not come from North East Asia but somewhere around Chelyabinsk near Kazakhstan.

8210

If you are a farmer and do not move from your home area, of course, you marry a local woman who does everything in a way you are used to. However, Hungarians were not farmers but Eurasian nomads who were riding horses and did not stick to one place. They were surely more international than common farmers. They joined forces with Turks and Scythians to rule and control the trade and trading centres of the steppe from China to Eastern Europe. They were surely marrying women with roots in a very wide area. I am sure that these allied nomads changed women to strenghten their ties. That article gyms posted is surely worth reading. It is a pity that it is not free.

gyms
16-11-16, 11:24
http://www.tti.hu/en/events/473-turk-attila-eloadasa-a-magyar-ostortenetrol.html

These new archaeological results from Russia, Ukraine and Moldavia are, unfortunately, not generally known among the Hungarian scholars yet, though they can have decisive significance in the Hungarian prehistory research, as they do not always support the presently accepted theories about the stations and chronology of the migration of the pre-Hungarian and the Early Hungarian age. Moreover, the presently supposed way of life of the Early Hungarians (nomadic) can be questionable on the basis of the new research (including new natural history and climate history research) results, and a new approach seems more suitable to define their way of life, with some planting and nomadic or half-nomadic pastoralism.

http://www.academia.edu/1899093/The_new_archaeological_research_designed_for_early _Hungarian_history

torokt
03-12-16, 07:55
Sorry for interrupting, but Berun is right, R1b (and probably I2a as well) came from joined Vikings.
The author

MOESAN
03-12-16, 13:51
So do you mean that magyar tribe possibly came from Nor East Asia? Some of Hungarian conquerors had Hg N1c. At that time, manchu people was called "margal"(靺鞨). the hairstyle of margal and magyar were similar.
Former Hungary ambassador in korea said that 400 words of hungarian and korean are same now. He always said that his ancestor and ancient korean lived together in some area. looks like it was not ancient Korean, but manchu people.

the traditional views were: eurasian archaic (<<HG?) people of SW Ourals mixed later with E Ourals or N-Altay people stayed at a stage of proto-east-asian types (externally at least) before they took the westward route. Wait and see more auDNA but the DNA at their different stages would be more interesting that one of the same unique place and time if we want to discover their history.

Tomenable
03-12-16, 16:44
U106 and M423 are indigenous west of the Urals, that's for sure.

U106 is ~5000 years old which means that it most likely emerged in Yamnaya culture.

And AFAIK Yamnaya culture covered territories located on both sides of the Urals.

gyms
03-12-16, 21:54
Sorry for interrupting, but Berun is right, R1b (and probably I2a as well) came from joined Vikings.
The author
Terribly interesting hypothesis.Could you please elaborate more about that?

torokt
04-12-16, 08:06
I know it from our unpublished NGS data, which will be sent out shortly.How else could you interpret if many of the mtDNA genomes are identical or 1 nt distance from today living da nish, swedish, german, english people? Most frequent hit is danish. On the other hand the korean ambassador was just right, the asians are manchu, inner mongolian buryat. I think they are of xiongnu (hun) origin.

gyms
04-12-16, 15:21
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/04/vikings-may-have-first-taken-seas-find-women-slaves

"How else could you interpret if many of the mtDNA genomes are identical or 1 nt distance from today living da nish, swedish, german, english people?"

Historical sources make it clear that the “Vikings were taking, transporting, and selling slaves,” Raffield said in his talk. He estimates that slaves comprised as much as 25% of Scandinavia’s population.

The argument that Vikings set out to capture women gets tantalizing support from recent genetic studies of living people in Iceland, which has not experienced a significant migration since the Vikings settled it more than a thousand years ago. About three-
quarters of male Icelandic settlers hailed from what is today Norway, although well over half of the women were from the British Isles, according to genetic studies of today’s Icelanders. That suggests that Viking men partnered with British women on a massive scale.

gyms
04-12-16, 15:42
Abstract
The aim of this paper is to discuss the early Migration period as a particular period of ‘short term history’ and its formative impact on the Scandinavian longue duree in the first millenium. During this particular period of time, the object world of Scandinavia demonstrates radical changes in symbolic representation, followed by long term continuity and social/mental resistance to change. It is argued that the Huns, as a historical fact, were present in Scandinavia in the early fifth century. Their impact was to generate an‘episodic transition’ that opened up a whole new set of social, religious andpolitical strategies, in Scandinavia in particular as well as in Barbarian Europein general, and gave rise to a new Germanic identity in the aftermath of the Roman Empire.
http://www.medievalists.net/2014/07/scandinavia-huns-interdisciplinary-approach-migration-era/ (http://www.medievalists.net/2014/07/scandinavia-huns-interdisciplinary-approach-migration-era/)


Influences from the Huns on Scandinavian Sacrificial Customs during 300-500 AD
Marianne Görman


Abstract
Votive offerings may be our main source of knowledge concerning the religion of the Iron Age before the Vikings. An important question is the connection between two kinds of sacrificial finds, i.e. horse sacrifices and burial offerings. They are contemporary and they share the same background. They can both be traced back to the Huns. This means that in all probability religious ideas occurred in southern Scandinavia during the fourth to the sixth century which were strongly influenced by the Huns, who were powerful in Central Europe at that time. The explanation of this is probably that some Scandinavians, for instance by serving as mercenaries, had come in contact with the Huns and, at least to some extent, assimilated their ways of thinking and their religious ideas.
https://ojs.abo.fi/index.php/scripta/article/view/520

http://www.hf.uio.no/iakh/personer/vit/lotteh/
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0015587X.2012.716585?src=recsys&journalCode=rfol20

gyms
04-12-16, 17:11
Sorry for interrupting, but Berun is right, R1b (and probably I2a as well) came from joined Vikings.
The author
Prof Harry Fokkens (1998):
''The northern Netherlands is part of the northern group (NW Germany and Denmark) especially of the Sögeler Kreis characterized by a number of distinctive men's graves. The Drouwen grave is the best known Dutch example.It's remarkable that the Elp culture has never been presented as the immigration of a new group of people. Because clearly this period was a time when a number of new elements made their entry while others disappeared. The disappearance of beakers, the appearance of the Sögel men's graves with the first 'swords', among other things, the fully extended burial posture, under barrows; all the factors have been reason enough in the past to conclude that the Elp culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elp_culture)represented an immigration of Sögel warriors."
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33169-Bronze-Age-Sögel-warriors-are-responsible-for-a-R1b-founder-effect-in-NW-Europe

berun
04-12-16, 18:45
I know it from our unpublished NGS data, which will be sent out shortly.How else could you interpret if many of the mtDNA genomes are identical or 1 nt distance from today living da nish, swedish, german, english people? Most frequent hit is danish. On the other hand the korean ambassador was just right, the asians are manchu, inner mongolian buryat. I think they are of xiongnu (hun) origin.

But how it is possible to distinguish so between a Viking / Rus DNA from a Goth DNA if both had their origins in Sweden?

Goths were already peopling Crimean cities by the XVI Century and the last Goth speaker died in the XX century, so it shows that not all Goths left Ukraine for the Roman Empire. In fact the Rus had as main activities piracy and commerce and such activities were / are male sided, so that females could (or many times must) be "integraded" from other peoples... in the other hand the Goths moved with their wives and children and they could have remained somewhat unadmixed in Ukraine against incoming Slavs and Bulgars, much more if we take into account that after conquering Hispania they keept Arrianism and a kind of Apartheid for two centuries (the marriages between Visigoths and Hispanoromans were forbidden, just a way to keep their cultural traits among a more extensive population). Even the Ostrogoths themselves stablished in Pannonia just before to attack Italy.

MOESAN
04-12-16, 19:12
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/04/vikings-may-have-first-taken-seas-find-women-slaves

"How else could you interpret if many of the mtDNA genomes are identical or 1 nt distance from today living da nish, swedish, german, english people?"

Historical sources make it clear that the “Vikings were taking, transporting, and selling slaves,” Raffield said in his talk. He estimates that slaves comprised as much as 25% of Scandinavia’s population.

The argument that Vikings set out to capture women gets tantalizing support from recent genetic studies of living people in Iceland, which has not experienced a significant migration since the Vikings settled it more than a thousand years ago. About three-
quarters of male Icelandic settlers hailed from what is today Norway, although well over half of the women were from the British Isles, according to genetic studies of today’s Icelanders. That suggests that Viking men partnered with British women on a massive scale.

OK wi are allof us making bets as always.
But can we compare term to term the situation of raiders/adventurers like Vikings to the inside stable pop of Scandinavia?

gyms
05-12-16, 11:25
"But how it is possible to distinguish so between a Viking / Rus DNA from a Goth DNA if both had their origins in Sweden?"

Is there any data available for Viking or Goth aDNA? Which are the Viking and Goth haplogroups/haplotypes?

torokt
05-12-16, 12:00
But how it is possible to distinguish so between a Viking / Rus DNA from a Goth DNA if both had their origins in Sweden?

What you say is quite reasonable, however in case of Goth origin I would also expect close hits from Spain, France, Austria etc. where Ghots were finally assimilated. We are in the middle of analysis, but so far 2/3rd of the hits match people from Denmark, quite a few from Ireland and Sweden and a few from Germany, England, Italy. For me this rather implies relation with Vikings than with Goths. People with german haplotypes are mainly males, only few female or kids. In spite of the above reasoning of gyms, Viking women were also involved in establishing settlements, even in Iceland many of them were not captives from the British Isles but were brought from home. Role of women are discussed at several places (links were not allowed to attach) after a paper of Shane McLeod: Warriors and women: the sex ratio of Norse migrants to eastern England up to 900.

Finally the Rus territories overlapped those of the Hungarians before conquest in a large extent. Hungarians were reported to have gone through Kiev peacefully. Stephan the first Christian king of Hungary (1000 AD) had Varangian guards, and one of the title of his son was “prince of the Rus”. The Karos district is recognized by archaeologists the first power center of the early Hungarians with concentration of aristocrats and their escort warriors, which later moved towards todays Budapest district. Double edged Viking swords are typical findings in conqueror graves, which were so far interpreted to have come from trade. Typical “hungarian” conqueror cemeteries were reported from Skandinavia, indicating the close relations of not only Vikings and Huns (as shown above by gyms) but Vikings and Hungarians a few hundred years later.

For me possible Xiongnu relation of Hungarians is even a larger surprise. Though every Hungarian oral tradition and written source definitely claims or Hun origin, this was discredited in the last 150 years based on linguistic arguments.

gyms
05-12-16, 13:41
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0002214

We have assessed mtDNA variation in ten Viking subjects from Galgedil, ca. AD 1,000, in the northern part of Funen, Denmark. All subjects were untouched by humans at the time of sampling and additional precautions were taken to minimize the risk of pre-laboratory contamination.



Vikings had rare mtDNA haplogroups

DNA analysis have been made on skeletons from Viking tombs. The Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups found were the same as those found nowadays in Europe, but with a much higher percentage of the now very rare haplogroups I and X.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25039-Vikings-had-rare-mtDNA-haplogroups

The medieval Norsemen or Vikings

http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/370/1660/20130384

The Viking Age population had higher frequencies of K*, U*, V* and I* haplogroups than their modern counterparts, but a lower proportion of T* and H* haplogroups.

gyms
05-12-16, 13:56
torokt:For me possible Xiongnu relation of Hungarians is even a larger surprise.


Do you mean the Asian B and A mtDNA haplogroups?

berun
05-12-16, 14:46
What you say is quite reasonable, however in case of Goth origin I would also expect close hits from Spain, France, Austria etc. where Ghots were finally assimilated. We are in the middle of analysis, but so far 2/3rd of the hits match people from Denmark, quite a few from Ireland and Sweden and a few from Germany, England, Italy. For me this rather implies relation with Vikings than with Goths. People with german haplotypes are mainly males, only few female or kids. In spite of the above reasoning of gyms, Viking women were also involved in establishing settlements, even in Iceland many of them were not captives from the British Isles but were brought from home. Role of women are discussed at several places (links were not allowed to attach) after a paper of Shane McLeod: Warriors and women: the sex ratio of Norse migrants to eastern England up to 900.

Finally the Rus territories overlapped those of the Hungarians before conquest in a large extent. Hungarians were reported to have gone through Kiev peacefully. Stephan the first Christian king of Hungary (1000 AD) had Varangian guards, and one of the title of his son was “prince of the Rus”. The Karos district is recognized by archaeologists the first power center of the early Hungarians with concentration of aristocrats and their escort warriors, which later moved towards todays Budapest district. Double edged Viking swords are typical findings in conqueror graves, which were so far interpreted to have come from trade. Typical “hungarian” conqueror cemeteries were reported from Skandinavia, indicating the close relations of not only Vikings and Huns (as shown above by gyms) but Vikings and Hungarians a few hundred years later.

Actual Spain is not a good proxy to test Goth DNA, calculations provide some 200000 indivuals among 8 million Hispanoromans (2,5%), and the worst is that they concentrated in determinated areas like North Castille. For France, once they lost the battle of Vouillé in 507 they left the region to the Franks, going the local Goths to their Hispanic lands. As Sweden has not received any known big migration in the common era I think that they are yet a good proxy to test Goth DNA yet, even if there are haplo proportions differences between Götaland and Svealand... but IIRC the Rus came also from there... and if Danish people fits better for the findings, it could be also because they have not admixed with Samis.

Of course if some hits point to Ireland the Viking option wins more points, but it could be also the product of sharing a similar origin. For the archaeological proofs of course you know much more than me, but it wouldn't be harmful to check possible "Ukranian" evidences.

berun
05-12-16, 14:59
Well, you must be right, I forgot a big defference between Vikings and Goths: the first were heathen and the second ones were Arian Christians; all Conqueror burials are clearly heathen right?

torokt
05-12-16, 15:50
Well, you must be right, I forgot a big defference between Vikings and Goths: the first were heathen and the second ones were Arian Christians; all Conqueror burials are clearly heathen right?

Exactly, these are typical non christian steppe nomad burials with horses and other gifts.

torokt
05-12-16, 15:54
torokt:For me possible Xiongnu relation of Hungarians is even a larger surprise.

Do you mean the Asian B and A mtDNA haplogroups?

Yes, these are closest to present day Buryats, inner Mongolians and Manchurians so far....
Mansis appear only on further side branches if they appear at all. So far....

gyms
05-12-16, 16:36
Yes, these are closest to present day Buryats, inner Mongolians and Manchurians so far....
Mansis appear only on further side branches if they appear at all. So far....

Sample no.3 (R1b) and sample no.17(I2a) belong to mtDNA H (H6?).
Sample no.1 (R1b) and sample no.12 (I2a/I2a1b...) belong to haplogr. B (B4...?) resp. A (A?).
What's the explanation for that,if they are not "real" Hungarians?

gyms
05-12-16, 16:58
https://bonesdontlie.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/symbolic-skull-scrapings-trephination-in-hungary/
In Hungary, during the Conquest period (late 9th–10th c. AD), there was a unique type of trephination. It consisted of removal of an external layer of bone, was not complete and likely had symbolic meaning. So far there have been 130 cases of surgical trephination and 157 cases of symbolic trephination found from Hungary during this period. Bereczki et al. (2013) examine these unique superficial trephinations.


According to Révész László sample no.12 (I2a) have three symbolic skull-trephinations.

berun
05-12-16, 19:10
Exactly, these are typical non christian steppe nomad burials with horses and other gifts.

With that I come to the departing line... as "typical steppe nomad burials" are not likely to be expected for Vikings. This case is backed by dates, as the first stablishment of Vikings in Ukraine dates to the mid IX Century... so how they could have lost their cultural traits and way of life so quickly a people who is supposed to be river traders and pirates?

For the Varingian guard, the Byzantines also had another, and even their origin seem in actual Sweden

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece_runestones

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_runestones

the origin of the Rus Vikings in Sweden seems also quite possible; wikiquote:


The earliest European reference related to the Rus' people ruled by a khagan comes from the Frankish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks) Annals of St. Bertin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annals_of_St._Bertin), which refer to a group of Norsemen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen) who called themselves Rhos (qui se, id est gentem suam, Rhos vocari dicebant) and visited Constantinople (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople) around the year 838.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_Khaganate#cite_note-8) Fearful of returning home via the steppes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steppe), which would leave them vulnerable to attacks by the Magyars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_people), these Rhos travelled through the Frankish Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_Empire) accompanied by Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_people) ambassadors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambassador) from the Byzantine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) emperor Theophilus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophilos_%28emperor%29). When questioned by the Frankish Emperor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_the_Franks) Louis the Pious (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_the_Pious) at Ingelheim (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingelheim), they stated that their leader was known as chacanus (hypothesized to be either the Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) word for "Khagan" or a deformation of Scandinavian proper name Håkan),[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_Khaganate#cite_note-9) that they lived far to the north, and that they were Swedes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedes_%28Germanic_tribe%29) (comperit eos gentis esse sueonum).[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_Khaganate#cite_note-.27.27Annales_Bertiniani.27.27_19.E2.80.9320.3B_Jo nes_249.E2.80.93250.-10)

In fact Sweden is known as Ruotsi by Fins.

torokt
05-12-16, 19:33
Then our data need a better explanation.... There must have neen another german group out on the steppe with high cultural affinity to huns and even higher genetic affinity to scandinavians...

gyms
05-12-16, 20:43
Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=news (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=news)
The Russian Newsweek tested the first two Rurikid princes. The first one was Prince Dmitri Mikhailovich Shahovskoi of Paris, France, the prominent Professor at the Russian Orthodox Institute, who made the 1st Y-DNA test in the Rurikid Dynasty (at the end of 2006). Unexpectedly, he was found to belong to the genetic haplogroup N1c1 – the so-called “Finno-Ugrian”. Later, however, it was discovered that the N1c1 Rurikid princes belong to the so-called “Varangian Branch” in this haplogroup. This branch is one that is quite different from the present population of Finland (which is the “Finno-Karelian Branch”).

berun
05-12-16, 20:55
Then our data need a better explanation.... There must have neen another german group out on the steppe with high cultural affinity to huns and even higher genetic affinity to scandinavians...

Difficult task, but by now I bet for the Goths that reamined in Ukraine, from Getica (written in 550):


Now the Gothic race gained great fame in the region where they were then dwelling, that is in the Scythian land on the shore of Pontus, holding undisputed sway over great stretches of country, many arms of the sea and many river courses.


There were other Goths also, called the Lesser, a great people whose priest and primate was Vulfila, who is said to have taught them to write. And to-day they are in Moesia, inhabiting the Nicopolitan region as far as the base of Mount Haemus. They are a numerous people, but poor and unwarlike, rich in nothing save flocks of various kinds and pasture-lands for cattle and forests for wood. Their country is not fruitful in wheat and other sorts of grain. Certain of them do not know that vineyards exist elsewhere, and they buy their wine from neighboring countries. But most of them drink milk.

these statements seem to point that the Goths adapted to live in the steppes, so that they relied in their flocks; we have Germanic people with Germainc DNA with an steppe way of life, so it would be quite possible that some Goths were compelled to go with the Magyars to Pannonia as Pechenegs could hardly distinguish who was Goth or Magyar, they just wanted the land.

torokt
06-12-16, 08:32
Difficult task, but by now I bet for the Goths that reamined in Ukraine, from Getica (written in 550):

I am inclined to beleive you, but my problem is the large time gap and historical turmoil during this time gap between the Huns and Hungarians in this region.
If Getica is right, the returning Goths must have been Ostrogoths, who well integrated into Attila’s Hunnic society. We know that the Huns did only disappear from The Carpathian Basin after 454, but were present on the pontic steppes. One of Attila’s son Ernak moved into Scythia Minor (lower Danube, Dobruja today, that time belonged to Byzantium), and Goths were among his people.

Another groups (with hunnic origin according to some sources) appeared soon above the Black See, the utrigurs and kutrigurs, though some regard these Bulgars. One thing is clear, the retreating Huns became parts of newly emerging leading powers. One of these were the Avars, who defeated the utrigurs and kutrigurs (and other peoples) and integrated them into their society. In my opinion many of the huns were brought back into the Carpathian Basin as allies of the the Avars.

Even if some Huns and Goths wre left back on the Pontic steppes, they must have integrated into the next emerging organizations, like Bulgars, Alans, Khazars. Then the Bulgars also moved south, probably taking many of the integrated peoples with them.

Do we have any written sources other then Getica, which mention Goths as parts of any of the above people?

torokt
06-12-16, 08:39
According to Révész László sample no.12 (I2a) have three symbolic skull-trephinations.

This is another thing we must sometimes go after. You seem to be extremely well informed about hungarian anthropological and archaeological issues, as if these textbooks were on your shelf and read them in Hungarian....

gyms
06-12-16, 10:21
This is another thing we must sometimes go after. You seem to be extremely well informed about hungarian anthropological and archaeological issues, as if these textbooks were on your shelf and read them in Hungarian....

I am a csan-go musician and my wife is Diego a+b+.

berun
06-12-16, 14:28
Other authors writing about Goths were Procopius and Isidore of Seville but they tell their deeds in the Roman Empire. I think that as the Pontic Steppes fall into the Byzanthine sphere of influence the main sources might be taken from there. I suppose that tracking the history of the Crimean Goths could provide more information. By the way I think that if such Goths were able to stay in the Pontic steppes would be because they were not more attached to the land in an economical sense, maybe they were citizens involved in trading or so, and by that they would have had better chances to overcome Huns, Cumans, Petchenegs, Bulgars, etc. ... but speaking frankly the steppes were a kind of ethnic mill.

gyms
06-12-16, 14:49
Other authors writing about Goths were Procopius and Isidore of Seville but they tell their deeds in the Roman Empire. I think that as the Pontic Steppes fall into the Byzanthine sphere of influence the main sources might be taken from there. I suppose that tracking the history of the Crimean Goths could provide more information. By the way I think that if such Goths were able to stay in the Pontic steppes would be because they were not more attached to the land in an economical sense, maybe they were citizens involved in trading or so, and by that they would have had better chances to overcome Huns, Cumans, Petchenegs, Bulgars, etc. ... but speaking frankly the steppes were a kind of ethnic mill.

What if samples 1 and 3 are not R1b?

gyms
06-12-16, 15:18
According to this Kazakh press report, remains from an elite Hunnic burial in what is now Hungary belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup L and mitochondrial (mtDNA) haplogroup D4j12.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33134-Hun-sample-finds-in-Kazakstan

torokt
06-12-16, 21:45
I have asked for the sequence, two hungarians from Karos1 are nearly identical....

torokt
06-12-16, 21:51
What if samples 1 and 3 are not R1b?
What is the point?

This is another thing we must sometimes go after. You seem to be extremely well informed about hungarian anthropological and archaeological issues, as if these textbooks were on your shelf and read them in Hungarian....

gyms
06-12-16, 21:58
I have asked for the sequence, two hungarians from Karos1 are nearly identical....

Are they close relatives? Do you have any STR values?

torokt
06-12-16, 22:00
According to both Y and autosomal STR they are brothers.

torokt
06-12-16, 22:02
According to both Y and autosomal STR they are brothers.
From same father but 2 different mothers.

gyms
06-12-16, 22:05
What is the point?

When it comes to aDNA everything is possible.

torokt
06-12-16, 22:09
When it comes to aDNA everything is possible.
Not so much. DNA is hard science.

Sent from my thor using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

gyms
07-12-16, 17:36
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/full

To elucidate this question we attempted to screen 8 skeletal remains, from the age of the Hungarian Conquest, for the Tat C polymorphism, using bones from which ancient mtDNA fragments had been successfully recovered, which were therefore good candidates for Y-chromosomal analysis. Four of the 8 examined contained detectable Y-chromosomal DNA after whole genome amplification. Out of these, two possess the Tat C mutation. In case of the sample anc19 the presence of the ancestral Tat T allele was confirmed by typing the ancestral state (C allele) of the marker M9 (C→G)...

"Four of the 8 examined contained detectable Y-chromosomal DNA after whole genome amplification. Out of these, two possess the Tat C mutation."

But there is two more samples!!! What's their haplogroup? And what is the haplogroup of Ladislaus I of Hungary and King Béla III/ Coloman the Bookish ?

torokt
07-12-16, 18:40
Ask the authors... in short I do not trust these data, because they only tested Tat, on very few samples with early technology. Nevertheless according to our preliminary Y data N1c (Tat) is present in the conquerors, frequency unknown. The origin of this allele is in east-middle Asia, so not necessarily a finno-ugric marker.

Sent from my thor using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

gyms
07-12-16, 20:41
Several explanations have been suggested for the striking absence of Tat C in the linguistically Uralic modern Hungarian population (Rootsi et al., 2000 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/full#b51); Semino et al., 2000b (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/full#b57)). One is that Voguls and Ostyaks, and many other Siberian populations obtained this Y-chromosomal lineage only relatively recently, after the ancestors of the Magyars had left the Siberian forests for the great Eurasian steppe. Another is that Hungarians and Siberian Ugric-speaking populations have always been genetically unrelated despite their linguistic affinities. A third possibility is that the ancestral Magyars did have the Tat C allele, but lost it through genetic drift during their migration to Hungary, or after their settlement there.

My favorite :"...Voguls and Ostyaks, and many other Siberian populations obtained this Y-chromosomal lineage only relatively recently..."

The Tat C allele was found to be frequent not only among the Finno-Ugric populations but also among Latvians and Lithuanians.

Ukko
08-12-16, 02:12
Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=news (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=news)
The Russian Newsweek tested the first two Rurikid princes. The first one was Prince Dmitri Mikhailovich Shahovskoi of Paris, France, the prominent Professor at the Russian Orthodox Institute, who made the 1st Y-DNA test in the Rurikid Dynasty (at the end of 2006). Unexpectedly, he was found to belong to the genetic haplogroup N1c1 – the so-called “Finno-Ugrian”. Later, however, it was discovered that the N1c1 Rurikid princes belong to the so-called “Varangian Branch” in this haplogroup. This branch is one that is quite different from the present population of Finland (which is the “Finno-Karelian Branch”).


http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg

http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss14/JJ_S/FTDNA%20N-L550%20SNP%20Map%20-%207th%20of%20December%202016_zps9nf5xbq6.jpg

http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss14/JJ_S/FTDNA%20N-L1025%20SNP%20Map%20-%207th%20of%20December%202016_zpsfzk0rd7b.jpg

gyms
08-12-16, 15:36
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/12/07/092239

AbstractAs part of the effort to create a high resolution representative sequence database of the medieval Hungarian conquerors we have resequenced the entire mtDNA genome of 24 published ancient samples with Next Generation Sequencing, whose haplotypes had been previously determined with traditional PCR based methods. We show that PCR based methods are prone to erroneous haplotype or haplogroup determination due to ambiguous sequence reads, and many of the resequenced samples had been classified inaccurately. The SNaPshot method applied with published ancient DNA authenticity criteria is the most straightforward and cheapest PCR based approach for testing a large number of coding region SNP-s, which greatly facilitates correct haplogroup determination.

gyms
15-12-16, 14:34
torokt:For me possible Xiongnu relation of Hungarians is even a larger surprise.


Do you mean the Asian B and A mtDNA haplogroups?

THE NANAI CLAN SAMAR: THE STRUCTURE OF GENE POOL BASED ON Y-CHROMOSOME MARKERS
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1563011015001294

Members of the Nanai clan Samar reside in the Gorin area of the Khabarovsk Territory. Their gene pool was studied using the SNP markers of the Y-chromosome. The major haplogroup, occurring in more than 83% of clansmen, is the northern Eurasian haplogroup N1c1-M178. Four other haplogroups are С*-М130, I*-M170, J2a1а-M47, and O2-P31.

I*-M170 is quite interesting.

johen
15-12-16, 17:34
THE NANAI CLAN SAMAR: THE STRUCTURE OF GENE POOL BASED ON Y-CHROMOSOME MARKERS
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1563011015001294

Members of the Nanai clan Samar reside in the Gorin area of the Khabarovsk Territory. Their gene pool was studied using the SNP markers of the Y-chromosome. The major haplogroup, occurring in more than 83% of clansmen, is the northern Eurasian haplogroup N1c1-M178. Four other haplogroups are С*-М130, I*-M170, J2a1а-M47, and O2-P31.

I*-M170 is quite interesting.
The area locates near port Vladivostok. So it is possibly from Russian. However, is N1c1-M178 related with Tungus people?

gyms
15-12-16, 18:48
[QUOTE=johen;496935]The area locates near port Vladivostok. So it is possibly from Russian.

I-M170 and I-P37.2 is present at low frequencies in other Eurasian countries and popuations like Kazan Tatars,Kazakhstan,Üzbekistan,Pakistan,South Altai,Koryaks,Evenks,Nenets etc. So who knows?
http://www.transpacificproject.com/index.php/genetic-research/

Kisuan
16-12-16, 07:19
I-M170 and I-P37.2 is present at low frequencies in other Eurasian countries and popuations like Kazan Tatars,Kazakhstan,Üzbekistan,Pakistan,South Altai,Koryaks,Evenks,Nenets etc. So who knows?
http://www.transpacificproject.com/index.php/genetic-research/

Interesting, gyms, but may I ask where you in this link you see these populations specifically having I-P37.2? I just see the map with a key for haplogroup I (which I understand being I-M170 yes?) but without the subclade.

gyms
17-12-16, 09:53
[QUOTE=Kisuan;496981]Interesting, gyms, but may I ask where you in this link you see these populations specifically having I

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/tatarstan/default.aspx?section=yresults

There is I-P37 in Merke Kazakhstan,Jeti-Oguz Kyrgyzstan,Novosibirsk and Tobolsk Russia.......

One of the most interesting finds is the presence of a few IJ-M429* chromosomes in the sample. Haplogroup IJ encompasses the major European I subclade, and the major West Asian J subclade. The discovery of IJ* chromosomes is consistent with the origin of this haplogroup in West Asia; it is widely believed that haplogroup I represents a pre-Neolithic lineage in Europe, although at present there are no Y chromosome-tested pre-Neolithic remains.
http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2012/07/huge-study-on-y-chromosome-variation-in.html

gyms
18-12-16, 07:03
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2016/12/12/gr.202945.115.abstract

In addition, we uncovered admixtures between Siberians and Eastern European hunter-gatherers from Samara, Karelia, Hungary, and Sweden (from 8000–6600 yr ago); Yamnaya people (5300–4700 yr ago); and modern-day Northeastern Europeans. Our results provide new insights into genetic histories of Siberian and Northeastern European populations and evidence of ancient gene flow from Siberia into Europe.

gyms
27-12-16, 12:53
[QUOTE=Kisuan;496981]Interesting, gyms, but may I ask where you in this link you see these populations specifically having I

http://www.ranhaer.com/redirect.php?tid=34559&goto=lastpost

We have studied the gene pools of populations with &laquo;Tatar&raquo; enthonym in three regions of Eurasia – Tatars of Crimea, Tatars of Volga region and Tatars of Siberia. About 1000 individuals of these peoples were analyzed on 50 SNP markers of Y-chromosome, the most informative tool in population genetics. Ethnoterritorial groups of Tatars were found to be genetically different, we didn’t found their common ancestry component. The Westasian and Mediterranean genetic components (population of Asia Minor and Balkans) predominate in the gene pool of Crimea Tatars, the Eurasian steppe component is much fewer. The genetic variants of Ural and North Europe predominate in the gene pool of Volga Tatars, the genetic components of Asia Minor and Central Asia are much fewer. The populations of Siberia Tatars are very variable. Some includes the prominent Siberian genetic component, other has predominated genetic lineages from southwest regions of Eurasia. Consequently the gene pools of all the Tatar ethnoterritorial groups were formed based on the indigenous population with genetic flow of migrations from other regions.

I2a1-P37.2 in

Tobol-Irtysh:3.1%
Istyak-Tokuz 11.6%
Siberian Bukhar Tatars: 3.8%

gyms
30-01-17, 11:05
Preliminary mitochondrial DNA analysis of a 10th Century medieval population in Capidava (Constanta,Romania)

http://www.ibiol.ro/proiecte/PNII/GENESIS/2014/IoanaRusu.pdf

Conclusion
If...mutations will be confirmed for M3 and M4 it could possible reveal:
1. BothM3 and M4 originated from migrants of the Volga-Ural region.
2.

http://www.ibiol.ro/proiecte/PNII/GENESIS/rezultate.htm

gyms
20-02-17, 12:47
http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/3794/1/Neparaczki_PhD.pdf

Our data implies that Hungarian conquerors assembled from three major sources before the conquest, corresponding to 3 major distinct populations. It follows that our initial population genetic analysis which considered the conquerors as a single population was not justified. Based on genetic and historical data half of the conqueror population had probably Xiongnu origin, corroborating the statement of medieval Hungarian chronicles, which all declare Hunnic origin of the Hungarians. The conquerors with Scandinavian-German genetic affinity had most probably Ostrogothic origin, as this group was reported to have been integrated into the European Hun Empire hundreds of years before the conquest. Interestingly this European component also support the Hun affinity of the Hungarian conquerors. Our data do not support the Finno-Ugric origin of the conquerors, therefore historical linguistic arguments will have to be reconsidered. The lack of Finno-Ugric genetic rather raises the possibility, that the language connection can also be be indirect, which may have happened very long time (thousands of years) ago.

gyms
20-02-17, 12:49
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0076748

Table S5. (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?type=supplementary&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0076748.s015)Y-Chromosome STR profile for each individual in populations from Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan (CEPH), Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan.
doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0076748.s015
(XLS)

gyms
28-02-17, 13:14
http://media.proquest.com/media/pq/classic/doc/4313820151/fmt/ai/rep/NPDF?_s=HTQhIQzKdJvKuGdvmiwJ46qIleM%3D

UNDERSTANDING ANCIENT HUMAN POPULATION GENETICS OF THE EASTERN EURASIAN STEPPE THROUGH MITOCHONDRIAL DNA ANALYSIS: CENTRAL MONGOLIAN SAMPLES FROM THE NEOLITHIC, BRONZE AGE, IRON AGE AND MONGOL EMPIRE PERIODS

gyms
14-03-17, 16:08
Mitochondrial DNA diversity in a Transbaikalian Xiongnu population

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-017-0481-x

We detected 16 mitochondrial DNA haplotypes belonging to seven East Eurasian haplogroups (A, B5, C, D4, G2a, N9a, and Y) in the Transbaikalian Xiongnu series. We observed substantial similarity between Transbaikalian and Mongolian Xiongnu series with respect to main haplogroup composition and frequencies.

Ukko
14-03-17, 16:35
http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/3794/1/Neparaczki_PhD.pdf

Our data implies that Hungarian conquerors assembled from three major sources before the conquest, corresponding to 3 major distinct populations. It follows that our initial population genetic analysis which considered the conquerors as a single population was not justified. Based on genetic and historical data half of the conqueror population had probably Xiongnu origin, corroborating the statement of medieval Hungarian chronicles, which all declare Hunnic origin of the Hungarians. The conquerors with Scandinavian-German genetic affinity had most probably Ostrogothic origin, as this group was reported to have been integrated into the European Hun Empire hundreds of years before the conquest. Interestingly this European component also support the Hun affinity of the Hungarian conquerors. Our data do not support the Finno-Ugric origin of the conquerors, therefore historical linguistic arguments will have to be reconsidered. The lack of Finno-Ugric genetic rather raises the possibility, that the language connection can also be be indirect, which may have happened very long time (thousands of years) ago.


This study is total BS, almost unreal someone would publish this shit.

gyms
18-04-17, 17:22
A study of the Bodrogköz population in north-eastern Hungary by Y chromosomal haplotypes and haplogroups

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00438-017-1319-z (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00438-017-1319-z)

The Bodrogköz region was chosen due to its isolated nature, because this area was a moorland encircled by the Tisza, Bodrog, and Latorca Rivers and inhabitants of this part of Hungary escaped from both Tatar and Ottoman invasions, which decimated the post-Hungarian Conquest populations in many parts of the country.
Furthermore, in the first half of the tenth century, this region served as the Palatial Centre and burial grounds of the Hungarian tribes. It has thus been assumed that the present population in this area is likely to be more similar to the population that lived in the Conquest period.

gyms
22-04-17, 10:05
Revising mtDNA haplotypes of the ancient Hungarian conquerors with next generation sequencing

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0174886 (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0174886)

Ordas
05-09-17, 16:38
This study is total BS, almost unreal someone would publish this shit.
Why do you think it's BS?

I1a3_Young
06-09-17, 17:33
Fantastic. I'm so glad they are taking the time to get more detailed results. From a quick glance I saw a J get updated to J2a1 and an H5 go to H5e1.

gyms
16-01-18, 14:51
MITOMIX, an Algorithm to Reconstruct Population Admixture Histories Indicates Ancient European Ancestry of Modern Hungarians


https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/01/12/247395.full.pdf (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/01/12/247395.full.pdf)

Hierarchic clustering of the SHD matrix (Fig. 6) positions modern Hungarians into a common European subgroup with modern Danish, Italian, French, Swedish and Finnish populations. The closest ancient populations to modern Hungarians by SHD are Baltic Late Bronze Age (BalBA 0.815), Bell Baker (BellB 0.830) and European Early Neolithic (EUEN 0.879).

I1a3_Young
16-01-18, 18:54
A study of the Bodrogköz population in north-eastern Hungary by Y chromosomal haplotypes and haplogroups

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00438-017-1319-z (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00438-017-1319-z)

The Bodrogköz region was chosen due to its isolated nature, because this area was a moorland encircled by the Tisza, Bodrog, and Latorca Rivers and inhabitants of this part of Hungary escaped from both Tatar and Ottoman invasions, which decimated the post-Hungarian Conquest populations in many parts of the country.
Furthermore, in the first half of the tenth century, this region served as the Palatial Centre and burial grounds of the Hungarian tribes. It has thus been assumed that the present population in this area is likely to be more similar to the population that lived in the Conquest period.

Quite a mix of everything.

gyms
21-01-18, 15:52
Quite a mix of everything.

Galatians 3:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3%3A28&version=ESV) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

gyms
21-01-18, 16:02
Mitogenomic data indicate admixture components of Asian Hun and Srubnaya origin in the Hungarian Conquerors


The possible genetic relation of modern Hungarians to Finno-Ugric groups was tested in several studies [6–8], however all these found Hungarians being genetically unrelated to Uralic people. One of the latest studies [9] reported that a Y-chromosome haplogroup (N-L1034) is shared between 4% of the Hungarian Seklers (Hungarian-speaking ethnic group living in Transylvania) and 15% of the closest language relatives the Mansis, though the same marker is also present in Central Asian Uzbeks and has been detected just in one Hungarian [10]. These results indicated that Uralic genetic links hardly exist in modern Hungarians.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/01/19/250688

Ordas
21-01-18, 18:09
I'm hungarian from the Partium region, my grandpa is from the Nyírség region of Hungary from Nyírkáta also my grand grandfather. I have Y haplo N. I have the L708 and the M2126/P298 SNP-s but I don't have the L392, the L1034 or the M2019.
So could it be that the N Tat of the Hungarian Conquerors is the same from the Hun N-Tat.
I don't know the supclades of the N-Tats found among the Mongolian, Buryats, Usbek and Khanty populations. But it would be interesting. Is there any N Tat subclades known from early Hungarian conquerors other than L1034?

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gyms
21-01-18, 18:34
I'm hungarian from the Partium region, my grandpa is from the Nyírség region of Hungary from Nyírkáta also my grand grandfather. I have Y haplo N. I have the L708 and the M2126/P298 SNP-s but I don't have the L392, the L1034 or the M2019.
So could it be that the N Tat of the Hungarian Conquerors is the same from the Hun N-Tat.
I don't know the supclades of the N-Tats found among the Mongolian, Buryats, Usbek and Khanty populations. But it would be interesting. Is there any N Tat subclades known from early Hungarian conquerors other than L1034?

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https://www.google.se/search?q=the+phylogenetic+tree+of+y+haplogroup+N&newwindow=1&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi89I_Gy-nYAhXEjSwKHa8BDNYQsAQIPg&biw=1093&bih=479#imgrc=4fTeIBSNOvAQqM:&spf=1516556070702

gyms
21-01-18, 18:38
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29049-The-ancient-Huns-belonged-to-Y-haplogroups-Q-N-C-and-R1a1

The Huns, known as the Khün, Hunnu, or Xiongnu in East Asia, migrated from the Altai to the Volga region in the 1st century CE, then invaded eastern and central Europe in the 4th century, establishing the Hunnic Empire (c. 370-469 CE).

Ordas
21-01-18, 18:58
thank you for the links, I'll just study them

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gyms
21-01-18, 19:37
thank you for the links, I'll just study them

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https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/hungarian-magyar-y-dna-project/about/background

The project's aim is to test the highest possible number of Hungarian (Magyar) surnames. Our primary goal is to discover who belonged to which tribe or ethnic group when entered the Carpathian Basin. Please note that this project is only for ethnic Magyar surnames to minimize the impact of post-17th century settlement and assimilation.

Ordas
21-01-18, 20:26
This is interesting. Mi birth name is Nagy. I was tested by Living DNA. Do you know if I have to redo the test if I join? Its a question of cost and gain. :)

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gyms
22-01-18, 12:52
This is interesting. Mi birth name is Nagy. I was tested by Living DNA. Do you know if I have to redo the test if I join? Its a question of cost and gain. :)

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Anyone who wants to join the project should mail the administrator and provide basic information why he wants to do so (earliest known paternal ancestor, surname etc.). If the applicant matches the criteria (high likeliness of Magyar origin) he could join the project before ordering the test that would make a discount price for testing available. The acceptance of members is decided by the admin or co-admin.

gyms
14-02-18, 11:29
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

There were three R1a and two R1b statistically predicted Y haplogroups among the male skeletons (Table 3 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7#Tab3)). These are the most frequent and second most frequent haplogroups (25.6 and 18.1% respectively) in the present Hungarian population (Völgyi et al. 2009 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7#CR37)). King Béla III was inferred to belong to haplogroup R1a. The R1a Y haplogroup relates paternally to more than 10% of men in a wide geographic area from South Asia to Central Eastern Europe and South Siberia (Underhill et al. 2010 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7#CR35)). It is the most frequent haplogroup in various populations speaking Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Dravidian, Turkic and Finno-Ugric languages (Underhill et al. 2010 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7#CR35)).

King Béla III was inferred to belong to haplogroup R1a. (R1a-Z93 ?!)

johen
16-02-18, 21:38
King Béla III was inferred to belong to haplogroup R1a. (R1a-Z93 ?)

possible, see the eye area of the king's right skull:

http://cdn.blog.hu/si/sirasok/image/III%20Bela/III_B%C3%A9la.jpg
http://sirasok.blog.hu/2011/02/22/pogany_szertartas_az_arpad_hazi_kiralyok_udvaraban

kuzmosi
21-02-18, 20:19
Dear Ordas!

Adj'Isten, Földi! (Old hungarian greetings: It meens: Give God, Man from my homeland)

It is incredible, but one of my ancestor line (Simon family) also lives in Nyírkáta too, like your grandpa. But before 1955 the name of the village was Gebe.

I'm looking for the archeogenetical heritage the families from Nyírség. Especially the southern region, my homeland. At this time I know all of my 8 great-great grandfathers Y-chr haplogroup.
E1b1b-V13-Z17107* (Küzmös family) Penészlek, Nyírbéltek, Nyírvasvári
R1b-U106-Z381-DF98-S22069* (Dobi family) Balkány
R1b-U152-L2-Z49-S8172* (Béres family) Nyírbéltek
I2A-L621-A1328* (Tóth family) Nyírbéltek
R1a-M458-L260-YP415* (Kalenyák family) Penészlek, Nyírvasvári
R1a-L664-S2866 (Simon family) Nyírvasvári, Nyírkáta, Terem
I2A-L621-Y4460 (Kiss family-not completed yet) Penészlek
I1-L22 (Szilágyi family-not completed yet) Penészlek

Unfortunately just two MtDNA haplogroup were detected at this time:
H16f-earliest known source: Helena Huba 1807-1835 Penészlek
H4a1a4b-e.k.s: Mária Horváth 1801-1872 Geszteréd

They all lived in the Southern Nyírség, no more just 25 km-s from Nyírkáta.

It seems, the current people of the Nyírség, have mixed origin. All the family names (except the Kalenyák - which is a polosh one) is a very tipically hungarian names. The family names in Hungary, created in the XIV. century. So these genes since the XIV. century were present in the hungarian population. I would be grateful if you help with me to expand my database from the Southern Nyírség peoples.

I have a Nagy ancestor family too, from Nyírvasvári the neighboring village from Nyírkáta. The last known ancestor was Veronika Nagy (1858-1935) Her husband was György Kalenyák. Unfortunately I cannot find any previous data, because in an 1880 fire the church birth/death registers were destroyed. Maybe you don't know in your Nagy family a Veronika with this datas?

Ordas
21-02-18, 22:01
Dear Ordas!

Adj'Isten, Földi! (Old hungarian greetings: It meens: Give God, Man from my homeland)

It is incredible, but one of my ancestor line (Simon family) also lives in Nyírkáta too, like your grandpa. But before 1955 the name of the village was Gebe.

I'm looking for the archeogenetical heritage the families from Nyírség. Especially the southern region, my homeland. At this time I know all of my 8 great-great grandfathers Y-chr haplogroup.
E1b1b-V13-Z17107* (Küzmös family) Penészlek, Nyírbéltek, Nyírvasvári
R1b-U106-Z381-DF98-S22069* (Dobi family) Balkány
R1b-U152-L2-Z49-S8172* (Béres family) Nyírbéltek
I2A-L621-A1328* (Tóth family) Nyírbéltek
R1a-M458-L260-YP415* (Kalenyák family) Penészlek, Nyírvasvári
R1a-L664-S2866 (Simon family) Nyírvasvári, Nyírkáta, Terem
I2A-L621-Y4460 (Kiss family-not completed yet) Penészlek
I1-L22 (Szilágyi family-not completed yet) Penészlek

Unfortunately just two MtDNA haplogroup were detected at this time:
H16f-earliest known source: Helena Huba 1807-1835 Penészlek
H4a1a4b-e.k.s: Mária Horváth 1801-1872 Geszteréd

They all lived in the Southern Nyírség, no more just 25 km-s from Nyírkáta.

It seems, the current people of the Nyírség, have mixed origin. All the family names (except the Kalenyák - which is a polosh one) is a very tipically hungarian names. The family names in Hungary, created in the XIV. century. So these genes since the XIV. century were present in the hungarian population. I would be grateful if you help with me to expand my database from the Southern Nyírség peoples.

I have a Nagy ancestor family too, from Nyírvasvári the neighboring village from Nyírkáta. The last known ancestor was Veronika Nagy (1858-1935) Her husband was György Kalenyák. Unfortunately I cannot find any previous data, because in an 1880 fire the church birth/death registers were destroyed. Maybe you don't know in your Nagy family a Veronika with this datas?Dear kuzmosi,
Adj Isten!
I'm sorry, since my Nagy lineage is from my paternal line, I justvhave the male names and don't know nothing about the eventual sisters.
I will send you in a PM this branch of my family tree ( what I know about it) maybe it helps...

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gyms
29-05-18, 14:37
Several explanations have been suggested for the striking absence of Tat C in the linguistically Uralic modern Hungarian population (Rootsi et al., 2000 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/full#b51); Semino et al., 2000b (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00440.x/full#b57)). One is that Voguls and Ostyaks, and many other Siberian populations obtained this Y-chromosomal lineage only relatively recently, after the ancestors of the Magyars had left the Siberian forests for the great Eurasian steppe. Another is that Hungarians and Siberian Ugric-speaking populations have always been genetically unrelated despite their linguistic affinities. A third possibility is that the ancestral Magyars did have the Tat C allele, but lost it through genetic drift during their migration to Hungary, or after their settlement there.

My favorite :"...Voguls and Ostyaks, and many other Siberian populations obtained this Y-chromosomal lineage only relatively recently..."

The Tat C allele was found to be frequent not only among the Finno-Ugric populations but also among Latvians and Lithuanians.

"Perhaps the Siberian-like people did not introduce Finnic languages into the Baltic. Perhaps that was someone else. But I doubt it. That being said, though the Siberian-like component adds great distinctiveness to the Finns, it is important to add that by and large Finns are actually generic (if highly drifted) Northern Europeans."

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/01/30/the-finns-are-probably-an-iron-age-intrusion-into-the-east-baltic/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Ordas
11-06-18, 18:00
"Perhaps the Siberian-like people did not introduce Finnic languages into the Baltic. Perhaps that was someone else. But I doubt it. That being said, though the Siberian-like component adds great distinctiveness to the Finns, it is important to add that by and large Finns are actually generic (if highly drifted) Northern Europeans."

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/01/30/the-finns-are-probably-an-iron-age-intrusion-into-the-east-baltic/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitterDidn't had the huns Tat C too?


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gyms
04-09-18, 11:02
The Árpáds or Arpads are R1a-Z93> Z2123.

Try to translate:

https://mttmuzeum.blog.hu/2018/08/29/az_arpad-haz_eredete_iii_bela_kiraly_csontjainak_tanusaga?u tm_medium=doboz&utm_campaign=bloghu_cimlap&utm_source=kult

Ordas
05-10-18, 21:36
The Árpáds or Arpads are R1a-Z93> Z2123.

Try to translate:

https://mttmuzeum.blog.hu/2018/08/29/az_arpad-haz_eredete_iii_bela_kiraly_csontjainak_tanusaga?u tm_medium=doboz&utm_campaign=bloghu_cimlap&utm_source=kult[emoji106]a very interesting study! Thank you for the link.

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gyms
19-10-18, 20:58
"It has been widely accepted that the Finno-Ugric Hungarian language, originated from proto Uralic people, was brought into the Carpathian Basin by the conquering Hungarians. From the middle of the 19th century this view prevailed against the deep-rooted Hungarian Hun tradition, maintained in folk memory as well as in Hungarian and foreign written medieval sources, which claimed that Hungarians were kinsfolk of the Huns. "

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0205920

Angela
19-10-18, 21:07
"It has been widely accepted that the Finno-Ugric Hungarian language, originated from proto Uralic people, was brought into the Carpathian Basin by the conquering Hungarians. From the middle of the 19th century this view prevailed against the deep-rooted Hungarian Hun tradition, maintained in folk memory as well as in Hungarian and foreign written medieval sources, which claimed that Hungarians were kinsfolk of the Huns. "

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0205920


There's a dedicated thread for the new paper which I just started today. Check the new posts or activity section.

gyms
18-12-18, 11:51
http://real.mtak.hu/88674/1/Bernert_AK2018.pdf

Bernert Zs., Fehér T., Varga D., Székely G., Németh E.: Testimony from the Bones of Hungarian King Béla III – Origins of the Árpád Dynasty. The role of applications based on machine learning is continuously growing in the industry, health sector/bioinformatics and scientific research. American researchers published a bit more than 10 years ago the first machine learning algorithms, which were able to safely predict Y-SNP based haplogroups from Y-STR data.

The goal of the present study was to predict with machine learning algorithms the SNP-based subgroup of three ancient DNA samples (King Béla III and two Khazar samples) belonging to Y-DNA Haplogroup R1a, in order to predict their geographic origin and mutual genetic relatedness more accurately. This is the first study applying machine learning algorithms for researching Hungarian prehistory.
Based on the Y-STR haplotype of King Béla III, we estimated with the machine learning algorithm in the first step that he belonged to the R1a-Z93 subgroup that is most common among Indo-Iranic and Turkic speaking peoples. The second step predicted that King Béla III belonged to the Z2123 subgroup of R1a-Z93. The Phylogenetic analysis showed King Béla III most likely belonged to the relatively rare YP451+ YP449- subgroup of Z2123, which practically only appears in the North Caucasus, especially among Karachays and Balkars.
Based on our results, we could hypothetically conclude that the Árpád Dynasty has common origin with one ethnic component of the Karachay people.
In our study we proved that it is possible to increase the accuracy of Y-DNA haplogroup prediction of historical aDNA samples with mathematical methods using contemporary Y-STR haplotypes. With the help of this method, larger historical aDNA studies could save a lot of research funds and DNA carrying out tailored deep SNP-testing of samples instead of using general SNaPshots.
Keywords: Physical anthropology; Archaeogenetics; Machine learning; Y-SNP prediction; Y-STR; Gradient boosting; Árpád Dynasty; King Béla III; Hungarian ethnogenesis.

Olivia_19
23-01-19, 17:02
Such a good information

Olivia_19
23-01-19, 17:06
Hmm, guess it's much better to

Olivia_19
23-01-19, 17:07
Genetic structure is my favorite subject

Olivia_19
23-01-19, 17:07
Kinda keen on this

gyms
01-04-19, 12:15
Genetic history of Bashkirian Mari and Southern Mansi ethnic groups in the Ural region

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00438-019-01555-x

According to genetic studies, the Hungarian Y-chromosomal gene pool significantly differs from other Uralic-speaking populations. Hungarians possess a significant frequency of haplogroup R1a-Z280 and a low frequency of haplogroup N-Tat, which is common among other Uralic-speaking populations. Based on this evidence, we further worked to define the links between the linguistically related Hungarian, Mansi and Bashkirian Mari populations. Samples were collected from 45 Bashkirian Mari and 36 Southern Mansi males in the Ural region. We analyzed male-specific markers including 23 STRs and 36 SNPs, which reflect past and recent paternal genetic history. We found that the haplogroup distribution of the two population samples showed high genetic similarity to each other except for the N-Tat* and R1a-Z93 haplogroups in the Bashkirian Mari males. On the MDS plots constructed from Fst- and Rst-genetic distances, the Bashkirian Mari and Southern Mansi population groups showed close genetic affinities with the Khanty, Northern Mansi, Mari, and Estonian populations. For phylogenetic studies, networks were constructed for the most frequent haplogroups in both populations together with other Eurasian populations. Both populations shared common haplotypes within haplogroups R1a-Z280 or N-L1034 with Hungarian speakers, suggesting a common paternal genetic footprint that arose in prehistoric or historic times. Overall, the Hungarian, Mansi, and Bashkirian Mari populations have a much more complex genetic history than the traditional linguistic model or history would suggest. Further studies are needed to clarify the common genetic profiles may have been acquired directly or indirectly during the more or less known their history.

elpike
04-04-19, 11:36
Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of the Carpathian Basinhttps://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2019/04/03/597997.full.pdf

bicicleur
04-04-19, 12:09
Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of the Carpathian Basinhttps://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2019/04/03/597997.full.pdf

it's already on another thread : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38193-Huns-Avars-and-Hungars?p=571730#post571730

kuzmosi
19-05-19, 11:20
Very new results. I think it's very interesting:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-YP1695/

It seems, here is an 1100 years old pure hungarian bloodline from Inner Asia.

id:YF02841 is from East-Kazahstan. Yessembayev from the nayman tribe.
id:ERS2374408 is an ancient DNA sample from a tomb of a 2500 years old scythian warrior. The location: near the Tien-shan, East-Kazahstan.

gyms
24-05-19, 15:10
AbstractHungarians who live in Central Europe today are one of the westernmost Uralic speakers. Despite of the proposed Volga-Ural/West Siberian roots of the Hungarian language, the present-day Hungarian gene pool is highly similar to that of the surrounding Indo-European speaking populations. However, a limited portion of specific Y-chromosomal lineages from haplogroup N, sometimes associated with the spread of Uralic languages, link modern Hungarians with populations living close to the Ural Mountain range on the border of Europe and Asia. Here we investigate the paternal genetic connection between these spatially separated populations. We reconstruct the phylogeny of N3a4-Z1936 clade by using 33 high-coverage Y-chromosomal sequences and estimate the coalescent times of its sub-clades. We genotype close to 5000 samples from 46 Eurasian populations to show the presence of N3a4-B539 lineages among Hungarians and in the populations from Ural Mountain region, including Ob-Ugric-speakers from West Siberia who are geographically distant but linguistically closest to Hungarians. This sub-clade splits from its sister-branch N3a4-B535, frequent today among Northeast European Uralic speakers, 4000–5000 ya, which is in the time-frame of the proposed divergence of Ugric languages.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-44272-6

Ordas
04-07-19, 13:36
Very new results. I think it's very interesting:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-YP1695/

It seems, here is an 1100 years old pure hungarian bloodline from Inner Asia.

id:YF02841 is from East-Kazahstan. Yessembayev from the nayman tribe.
id:ERS2374408 is an ancient DNA sample from a tomb of a 2500 years old scythian warrior. The location: near the Tien-shan, East-Kazahstan.How can you see to whom the ancient DNA belongs on YFull?

Sent from my SM-N950F using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

gyms
14-01-20, 22:20
Genetic analysis of male Hungarian Conquerors: European and Asian paternal lineages of the conquering Hungarian tribes

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-019-00996-0 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-019-00996-0)

The 19 male individuals paternally belong to 16 independent haplotypes and 7 haplogroups (C2, G2a, I2, J1, N3a, R1a, and R1b). The presence of the N3a haplogroup is interesting because it rarely appears among modern Hungarians (unlike in other Finno-Ugric-speaking peoples) but was found in 37.5% of the Hungarian Conquerors.

Regio X
15-01-20, 13:45
deleted...

kingjohn
15-01-20, 14:33
j1 is surprising maybe the magyars
picked it up during there journey :thinking:
cool finding overall :good_job:

kuzmosi
13-06-20, 21:08
Hungarian Conqueror Karos III (K3per1_GE)Ancient sample matches for this 1100 years old conquering hungarian sample, according the mytrueancestry's Olympus level option: Strong steppe ancestry (andronovo, cimmerians, scythians, sarmatians, avars, onogur-bolgars, other turkic tribes) and a strong germanic ancestry (and with this including a celtic/gaul ancetry). But the slavic ancestry is less than the celtic. Is this a big surprise?

1. Hungary Avar Elite Kunpeszer-Felsopeszer (645 AD) ..... 15.04 - KFPper6_GE - Top 99 % match vs all users
2. Scythian Ukraine (600 BC) ..... 16.58 - scy010 - Top 87 % match vs all users
3. Visigoth Mixed Slav Girona (550 AD) ..... 17.42 - I12031 - Top 76 % match vs all users
4. Western-Scythian Black Sea (290 BC) ..... 18.92 - MJ34 - Top 60 % match vs all users
5. Eurasian Steppes Saka Scythian (775 BC) ..... 19.16 - DA130 Top 88 % match vs all users
6. Western Pomerania Unetice (2000 BC) ..... 19.78 - Rise139 - Top 52 % match vs all users
7. Thuringii Tribe (420 AD) ..... 19.8 - AED_1108 - Top 33 % match vs all users
8. Scythian Moldova (300 BC) ..... 19.83 - scy301 - Top 47 % match vs all users
9. Early Sarmatian Russia (300 BC) ..... 19.89 - I0247 - Top 99 % match vs all users
10. Finnic Sarmatian Warrior (605 AD) ..... 19.95 - NS12a - ? Top 98 % match vs all users
11. Alemannic Bavaria (450 AD) ..... 20.11 - BIM_33 - Top 32 % match vs all users
12. Cisalpine Gaul (590 AD) ..... 20.24 - SZ45 - Top 36 % match vs all users
13. Early Slav-Mix Avar Grave (590 AD) ..... 20.53 - AV1 - Top 84 % match vs all users
14. Gepid / Goth (450 AD) ..... 20.56 - Vim2 Top 95 % match vs all users
15. Cimmerian Outlier Ukraine (600 BC) ..... 21.18 - MJ32 - Top 69 % match vs all users
16. Scythian Ukraine (600 BC) ..... 21.18 - scy009 - Top 59 % match vs all users
17. Hungary Iron Age (800 BC) ..... 21.62 - IR1 - Top 59 % match vs all users
18. Halstatt (775 BC) ..... 21.63 - DA112 - Top 31 % match vs all users
19. Viking St. Brice Massacre Oxford (1002 AD) ..... 21.65 - V11P - Top 39 % match vs all users
20. Swiss Germanic (580 AD) ..... 21.7 - CL102 - ? Top 26 % match vs all users
21. Sarmatian Black Sea (50 AD) ..... 21.72 - DA144 - Top 84 % match vs all users
22. Medieval Tyrolian (580 AD) ..... 21.91 - CL53 - Top 26 % match vs all users
23. Medieval Tyrolian (590 AD) ..... 22.06 - SZ5 - Top 28 % match vs all users
24. Germanic Medieval Denmark (1270 AD) ..... 22.26 - G119 - Top 28 % match vs all users
25. Western-Scythian Outlier Black Sea (260 BC) ..... 22.36 - MJ46 - Top 34 % match vs all users
26. Medieval Czech Brandysek (710 AD) ..... 22.41 - Rise569 - Top 43 % match vs all users
27. Kievan Rus (1130 AD) ..... 22.42 - Sunghir6 - Top 90 % match vs all users
28. Trans-Volga Forest Steppes Srubnaya (1550 BC) ..... 22.43 - I0232 - Top 47 % match vs all users
29. Caspian Steppes (1550 BC) ..... 22.58 - IO232 Top 45 % match vs all users
30. Medieval Hungary / Balkan (1244 AD) ..... 22.61 - DA199 - Top 26 % match vs all users
31. Bell Beaker England (2000 BC) ..... 22.63 - I6679 - Top 31 % match vs all users
32. Western Scythian Ukraine (600 BC) ..... 22.69 - MJ47 - Top 31 % match vs all users
33. Germanic Mixed Tribe (505 AD) ..... 22.74 - AED125b - ? Top 34 % match vs all users
34. Bell Beaker Oxford (2150 BC) ..... 22.75 - I2443 - Top 33 % match vs all users
35. Bell Beaker Salisbury (2200 BC) ..... 22.77 - I6777 - Top 32 % match vs all users
36. Ancient Siberia Tagar (850 BC) ..... 22.77 - DA8 - Top 96 % match vs all users
37. Ancient Siberia Tagar (850 BC) ..... 22.78 - DA2 - Top 93 % match vs all users
38. Marseilles Plague Victim (1721 AD) ..... 22.92 - OBS137 - ? Top 57 % match vs all users
39. Baltic Medieval Denmark (1250 AD) ..... 22.96 - G1137 - Top 73 % match vs all users
40. Trans-Volga Forest Steppes CWC (1725 BC) ..... 22.97 - kzb008 - Top 41 % match vs all users
41. Medieval Denmark Ribe (1315 AD) ..... 23.06 - G864 - Top 87 % match vs all users
42. Celtic Gladiator York (250 AD) ..... 23.08 - 6DRIF-21 - Top 30 % match vs all users
43. Frankish-Gaul / Lombardy Italy (580 AD) ..... 23.08 - CL47 - ? Top 25 % match vs all users
44. Hunnic Tian Shan (475 AD) ..... 23.11 - DA65 Top 98 % match vs all users
45. Trans-Volga Forest Steppes CWC (1725 BC) ..... 23.13 - kzb002 - Top 81 % match vs all users
46. Eurasian Steppes (1500 BC) ..... 23.29 - DA231 Top 42 % match vs all users
47. Andronovo Bayan-Zherek Mountains (1400 BC) ..... 23.29 - I1931 Top 69 % match vs all users
48. Bell Beaker Amesbury (2150 BC) ..... 23.33 - I5512 - Top 31 % match vs all users
49. Greuthungi / Ostrogoth (400 AD) ..... 23.39 - MJ19 - Top 30 % match vs all users
50. Czech Bilina_N_Baalberge CWC (3600 BC) ..... 23.44 - I6696 - ? Top 31 % match vs all users
51. Germanic Medieval Denmark (1250 AD) ..... 23.46 - G1065 - Top 29 % match vs all users
52. Early Bronze Age Blatne Slovakia (2100 BC) ..... 23.49 - BLAT_33_Co Top 37 % match vs all users
53. Celtic Briton Gladiator York (250 AD) ..... 23.54 - 6DRIF-22 - Top 28 % match vs all users
54. North Central Lombard (580 AD) ..... 23.55 - CL63 - Top 24 % match vs all users
55. Siberia Andronovo (1500 BC) ..... 23.62 - Rise500 - Top 75 % match vs all users
56. Trans-Volga Forest Steppes CWC (1725 BC) ..... 23.63 - kzb006 Top 36 % match vs all users
57. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 23.68 - I4889 - Top 29 % match vs all users
58. Visigoth Germanic Girona (550 AD) ..... 23.69 - I12163 - Top 25 % match vs all users
59. Visigoth Germanic Girona (550 AD) ..... 23.7 - I12162 - Top 27 % match vs all users
60. Siberia Afansievo Culture (2700 BC) ..... 23.78 - Rise511 - Top 68 % match vs all users
61. Bell Beaker Scotland (2145 BC) ..... 23.84 - I5471 - Top 27 % match vs all users
62. Corded Ware Germany (2400 BC) ..... 23.87 - I0104 - Top 34 % match vs all users
63. Western-Scythian Ukraine (600 BC) ..... 23.88 - MJ16 - Top 32 % match vs all users
64. Bronze Age Jinonice Prague Czech (2122 BC) ..... 23.93 - I4886 - Top 27 % match vs all users
65. Sala Silver Mine Sweden (1610 AD) ..... 23.99 - Sk6866 - Top 38 % match vs all users
66. Onogur-Bulgar Rostov Steppes (770 AD) ..... 24.04 - DA142 - Top 99 % match vs all users
67. Alemannic Bavaria (495 AD) ..... 24.05 - STR_316 - Top 30 % match vs all users
68. Western Scythian Ukraine (580 BC) ..... 24.06 - MJ13 - Top 32 % match vs all users
69. Swede Medieval Denmark (1250 AD) ..... 24.14 - G208 - Top 30 % match vs all users
70. Hungary Elite Avar Kiskoros-Vaghohid (690 AD) ..... 24.15 - KVper3369_GE - Top 99 % match vs all users
71. Scythian Ukraine (600 BC) ..... 24.22 - scy006 - Top 29 % match vs all users
72. Early Sarmatian Russia (575 BC) ..... 24.23 - MJ41 - Top 70 % match vs all users
73. Germanic Tribe Spreitenbach CWC Switzerland (2660 BC) ..... 24.23 - MX190 - Top 29 % match vs all users
74. Sarmatian Russia (140 AD) ..... 24.26 - chy001 - Top 88 % match vs all users
75. Frankish / Hungary (590 AD) ..... 24.29 - SZ23 - Top 26 % match vs all users
76. Eastern Scythian Zevakino-Chilikta (800 BC) ..... 24.29 - IS2 - Top 98 % match vs all users
77. Swede Medieval Denmark (1250 AD) ..... 24.3 - G942 Top 34 % match vs all users
78. Bronze Age Szolad Hungary (1000 BC) ..... 24.31 - SZ1 - Top 74 % match vs all users
79. Iron Age Sarmatian (350 BC) ..... 24.33 - I0575 - Top 97 % match vs all users
80. Medieval Denmark (1270 AD) ..... 24.35 - G33 - Top 30 % match vs all users
81. Sarmatian Steppes (220 AD) ..... 24.39 - tem002 - Top 78 % match vs all users
82. Bronze Age Covesea Cave Scotland (2000 BC) ..... 24.43 - I3132 - Top 30 % match vs all users
83. Siberia Karasuk (1400 BC) ..... 24.46 - Rise499b - Top 97 % match vs all users
84. Bronze Age Jinonice Prague Czech (1813 BC) ..... 24.5 - I4896 - Top 25 % match vs all users
85. Belgic Tribe Colmar France (340 BC) ..... 24.56 - COL153i - Top 28 % match vs all users
86. Iron Age Ingria (130 AD) ..... 24.58 - VIII7 - Top 37 % match vs all users
87. Western Scythian Ukraine (580 BC) ..... 24.58 - MJ35 - Top 49 % match vs all users
88. Belgic Tribe Nordhouse France (500 BC) ..... 24.6 - NOR3-6 - Top 27 % match vs all users
89. Turkic (768 AD) ..... 24.6 - DA228 Top 99 % match vs all users
90. Germanic Lombard (590 AD) ..... 24.61 - SZ11 - Top 31 % match vs all users
91. Scythian Moldova (290 BC) ..... 24.64 - scy311 - Top 23 % match vs all users
92. Andronovo Culture Pavlodar (1500 BC) ..... 24.65 - I10112 Top 35 % match vs all users
93. Viking Denmark Odense (1058 AD) ..... 24.67 - G507 - Top 30 % match vs all users
94. Bronze Age Netherlands (1775 BC) ..... 24.69 - I4070 - Top 31 % match vs all users
95. Bell Beaker Germany (2250 BC) ..... 24.73 - I0806 - Top 30 % match vs all users
96. Frankish-Gallic Lombard Grave (590 AD) ..... 24.75 - SZ27 Top 23 % match vs all users
97. Bell Beaker Haunstetten Germany (2273 BC) ..... 24.78 - UNTA85_1343 - Top 27 % match vs all users
98. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 24.79 - I4888 - Top 25 % match vs all users
99. Bronze Age Vatya Hungary (1750 BC) ..... 24.79 - Rise479 - Top 82 % match vs all users
100. Nordic Lombard (590 AD) ..... 24.82 - SZ14 - Top 29 % match vs all users
101. Ciry-Salsogne Bell Beaker France (2520 BC) ..... 24.84 - CBV95 - Top 35 % match vs all users
102. Frankish / Hungary (590 AD) ..... 24.89 - SZ38 - ? Top 25 % match vs all users
103. Obalczkowo Wielkopolska Poland CWC (2630 BC) ..... 24.9 - poz44 - Top 34 % match vs all users
104. Early Slav Avar Grave (590 AD) ..... 24.91 - AV2 - Top 87 % match vs all users
105. Proto-Slavic Late Neolithic Wartau Switzerland (2510 BC) ..... 24.92 - MX298 Top 87 % match vs all users
106. Fennoscandia Mix Finland (550 AD) ..... 24.92 - DA237 - ? Top 95 % match vs all users
107. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 24.94 - I4885 - Top 23 % match vs all users
108. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 25.0 - I4892 - Top 31 % match vs all users
109. Iron Age Colmar France (340 BC) ..... 25.05 - COL11 - Top 28 % match vs all users
110. Pre-Slav Medieval Poland (1100 AD) ..... 25.06 - PCA157_Mar6 - ? Top 47 % match vs all users
111. Early Sarmatian Russia (550 BC) ..... 25.07 - MJ56 - Top 88 % match vs all users
112. Kimak Turkic Tribe (800 AD) ..... 25.07 - DA87 - Top 99 % match vs all users
113. Ancient Gotlander (2750 BC) ..... 25.1 - Ajvide52 - Top 68 % match vs all users
114. Celtic Briton Gladiator York (250 AD) ..... 25.15 - 3DRIF-16 - Top 27 % match vs all users
115. Andronovo Bayan-Zherek Mountains (1750 BC) ..... 25.15 - I0507 Top 81 % match vs all users
116. Young Merovingian Noble (605 AD) ..... 25.18 - NS6 - Top 30 % match vs all users
117. Middle Sarmatian Urals (266 BC) ..... 25.22 - MJ44 - Top 84 % match vs all users
118. Corded Ware Germany (2500 BC) ..... 25.32 - I0103 - Top 35 % match vs all users
119. Viking Sweden (1100 AD) ..... 25.33 - Sigtuna grt036 - Top 30 % match vs all users
120. Bell Beaker Augsburg (2215 BC) ..... 25.34 - HUGO_168 - Top 30 % match vs all users
121. Czech Radovesice X Club CWC (2350 BC) ..... 25.35 - I7209 - ? Top 40 % match vs all users
122. Bell Beaker England (2150 BC) ..... 25.4 - I5382 - Top 31 % match vs all users
123. Alemannic Bavaria (495 AD) ..... 25.4 - AED_106 - Top 31 % match vs all users
124. Andronovo Culture Western Steppes (1300 BC) ..... 25.47 - I11538 Top 39 % match vs all users
125. Chalmny-Varre Kola Peninsula (1800 AD) ..... 25.54 - CHV001 Top 97 % match vs all users
126. Bronze Age Oostwoud Netherlands (2040 BC) ..... 25.55 - I4075 - Top 31 % match vs all users
127. Byzantine Roman Warrior (605 AD) ..... 25.55 - NS3b - Top 71 % match vs all users
128. Pre-Slav Medieval Poland (950 AD) ..... 25.56 - PCA133_Niemcza19 - ? Top 93 % match vs all users
129. Bronze Age Earith Cambridgeshire England (1400 BC) ..... 25.58 - I7568 - Top 29 % match vs all users
130. Colonial American Pennsylvania (1700 AD) ..... 25.62 - Shohola - Top 29 % match vs all users
131. Iron Age Arzhan Russia (650 BC) ..... 25.62 - I0577 - Top 99 % match vs all users
132. Turkic (685 AD) ..... 25.67 - DA89 Top 99 % match vs all users
133. Bishop Peder Winstrup (1679 AD) ..... 25.7 - LUND1n - Top 28 % match vs all users
134. Ancient Siberia Tagar (850 BC) ..... 25.72 - DA4 - Top 84 % match vs all users
135. Sarmatian Ukraine (2680 BC) ..... 25.74 - MJ33 - Top 93 % match vs all users
136. Pre-Slav Medieval Poland (950 AD) ..... 25.75 - PCA124_Niemcza10 - ? Top 55 % match vs all users
137. Western Scythian Mix Hungary (550 BC) ..... 25.76 - DA197 - Top 28 % match vs all users
138. Medieval Piedmont (580 AD) ..... 25.83 - CL57 - Top 23 % match vs all users
139. Visigoth Frankish Girona (550 AD) ..... 25.83 - I12032 - Top 24 % match vs all users
140. Viking Denmark Revshale (1080 AD) ..... 25.87 - Revshale16 - Top 29 % match vs all users
141. Nordic Lombard (590 AD) ..... 25.94 - SZ22 - Top 30 % match vs all users
142. Viking St. Brice Massacre Oxford (1002 AD) ..... 25.95 - V4P - Top 25 % match vs all users
143. Germanic Tribe Spreitenbach CWC Switzerland (2200 BC) ..... 25.96 - MX196 Top 31 % match vs all users
144. Post Viking Denmark Tirup (1200 AD) ..... 26.0 - G300 - Top 29 % match vs all users
145. Bell Beaker Amesbury (2250 BC) ..... 26.01 - I2566 - Top 29 % match vs all users
146. Fennoscandia Finland (550 AD) ..... 26.02 - JK1968 - Top 94 % match vs all users
147. Early Sarmatian Russia (550 BC) ..... 26.02 - LS13 - Top 76 % match vs all users
148. Gallo-Roman Lombard Grave (580 AD) ..... 26.02 - CL94 - Top 27 % match vs all users
149. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 26.04 - I4891 - Top 26 % match vs all users
150. Altenerding Dark Ages Germany (550 AD) ..... 26.07 - AE1175 - Top 31 % match vs all users