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Angela
19-11-16, 18:09
The big take away seems to be that there is discontinuity between the early Neolithic and the late Neolithic Bronze Age, with a 1500 year gap.

See N.M. Moussa et al
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X16306927

"Highlights•Ancient DNA extracted from human remains belonging to Early Neolithic and Late Neolithic-Early Bronze Age periods in Lake Baikal area of Siberia.
•Y-chromosomal haplogroup results suggest that the Early Neolithic and the Late Neolithic-Early Bronze Age populations might be discontinuous.
•Differences in the Y-chromosomal signatures between the EN and LN-EBA populations were detected.
•The differences suggest displacement of males in Baikal population during EN and replacement by a genetically different population during LN-EBA.
•The Y-chromosomal haplogroups of the prehistoric Baikal population are represented in the contemporary Siberian populations.

AbstractThe Lake Baikal region of Siberia was home to two temporally distinct populations from Early Neolithic, EN (7500–7000 cal BP) to Late Neolithic-Early Bronze Age, LN-EBA (5570–3725 cal BP). The EN group was separated from the LN-EBA group by a ~ 1500-year gap (hiatus), and during this hiatus no human remains have been recovered from the Lake Baikal area. Examination of the paternal lineage through Y-chromosomal polymorphisms is a novel approach to BAP and will facilitate the assessment of the paternal continuities and/or discontinuities within and between the EN and the LN-EBA groups, and complement the previously examined maternal data. Several new ancient DNA extraction and PCR amplification techniques were optimized to address the technical challenges during sample analysis. Each sample was extracted twice in duplicate on different occasions to authenticate the results. Thirteen Y-chromosomal Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP) markers were examined via the SNaPshot multiplex PCR reaction to determine Y-chromosomal haplogroups of males. Results have been obtained from 16 males from the EN cemeteries Lokomotiv and Shamanka II representing haplogroups K, R1a1 and C3, and 20 males from the LN-EBA Ust'-Ida and Kurma XI cemeteries representing haplogroups Q, K and unidentified SNP (L914). For those males belonging to haplogroup Q, further experiments were obtained to examine sub-haplogroups of Q, and the results showed that those males belong to sub-haplogroup Q1a3. The paternal Y-chromosome results suggest a discontinuity between the EN and LN-EBA populations. The significance of this research lies on the utility of DNA analysis in making inferences about the pre-historic social structure."

Unfortunately, everything else is behind a pay wall.

bicicleur
19-11-16, 18:45
there is Y-DNA R1a1a and mtDNA U5 in EN Bajkal
there is a lot of Y-DNA K* in EN, probably the founder tribe of the Kitoi culture, a tribe now extinct

bicicleur
19-11-16, 18:47
oh, and no paywall here :

https://era.library.ualberta.ca/files/wm117r51m/Moussa_Nour_M_201509_PhD.pdf

LeBrok
19-11-16, 20:56
The big take away seems to be that there is discontinuity between the early Neolithic and the late Neolithic Bronze Age, with a 1500 year gap.

See N.M. Moussa et al
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X16306927

"Highlights

•Ancient DNA extracted from human remains belonging to Early Neolithic and Late Neolithic-Early Bronze Age periods in Lake Baikal area of Siberia.Perhaps we should mention that both groups are hunter-gatherers and not farmers, even though we are talking about Neolithic time frame.



The Lake Baikal region of Siberia was home to two temporally distinct populations from Early Neolithic, EN (7500–7000 cal BP) to Late Neolithic-Early Bronze Age, LN-EBA (5570–3725 cal BP). The EN group was separated from the LN-EBA group by a ~ 1500-year gap (hiatus), Did they mention what kind of disaster they think had happened? Climate or plague?




and during this hiatus no human remains have been recovered from the Lake Baikal area. Examination of the paternal lineage through Y-chromosomal polymorphisms is a novel approach to BAP and will facilitate the assessment of the paternal continuities and/or discontinuities within and between the EN and the LN-EBA groups, and complement the previously examined maternal data. Several new ancient DNA extraction and PCR amplification techniques were optimized to address the technical challenges during sample analysis. Each sample was extracted twice in duplicate on different occasions to authenticate the results. Thirteen Y-chromosomal Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP) markers were examined via the SNaPshot multiplex PCR reaction to determine Y-chromosomal haplogroups of males. Results have been obtained from 16 males from the EN cemeteries Lokomotiv and Shamanka II representing haplogroups K, R1a1 and C3, and 20 males from the LN-EBA Ust'-Ida and Kurma XI cemeteries representing haplogroups Q, K and unidentified SNP (L914). For those males belonging to haplogroup Q, It is surprising how genetically uniform newcomer males are. Although women are exactly same haplogroups but in different proportions than befor. What is this telling us about their past or culture? Dominant male takes all?

Angela
20-11-16, 00:31
Any of you guys have any ideas on what the ydna "K" found there could be?

Goga
20-11-16, 01:15
Huh? Baikal? Baikal has been said to be URHEIMANT of the Turkic tribes. Baikal is much closer to China than to the eastern Europe or even the Iranian Plateau. Iran is the closer proxy to Baikal than Europe. R1a1 in Baikal has to be from Iran, bacause it can't be that R1a in Iran is from Baikal (the Steppes). Since there are not many 'Mongoloid' Y-DNA haplogroups like C3 and Q1a3 in Iran nowadays. If R1a1 enetered the Iranian Plateau from the Steppes, Iran would be have much, much more C3 and Q1a3 haplogroups, since all those haplogroups heavily mixed with R1a1 in the Steppes. So, R1a in Baikal is most likely from the eastern Iranian Plateau..

8223

http://i.imgur.com/bnywqZM.jpg

Rethel
20-11-16, 01:20
It is surprising how genetically uniform newcomer males are.

Totally not surprising in normal world.

Goga
20-11-16, 01:20
Any of you guys have any ideas on what the ydna "K" found there could be?Iranian Plateau or South Central Asia (Tajikistan area). K is ancestral to L and T.

K is related to IJ (ancestral to I & J). IJK was ancestral to hg. I, J and K. IJK was native to West Asia. That there is K and R1a1 in Baikal is a VERY good indication that R1a1 is from Iran, because K is definely from the Iranian Plateau.


So, 'K' could enter Baikal together with 'R1a1' from Iran.

bicicleur
20-11-16, 01:28
Any of you guys have any ideas on what the ydna "K" found there could be?

it is not just K, it is K*, they mean Kx(LT, K2)
this does not exist any more today
it is an extinct tribe

Goga
20-11-16, 01:34
it is not just K, it is K*, they mean Kx(LT, K2)
this does not exist any more today
it is an extinct tribe
But K was related to I, J, T & L. Where can we find I, J, T and L?

Not sure about I (I1 & I2 seems to be antive to Europe), but J1, J2, T & L are native to the Zagros Mountains (J1 & J2) & Iranian Plateau (T & L).


They found K together with R1a1. So it seems that K migrated TOGETHER with R1a into Baikal. Good evidence that R1a1 is from Iran!!!

bicicleur
20-11-16, 01:38
But K was related to I, J, T & L. Where can we find I, J, T and L?

Not sure about I (I1 & I2 seems to be antive to Europe), but J1, J2, T & L are native to the Zagros Mountains (J1 & J2) & Iranian Plateau (T & L).


They found K together with R1a1. So it seems that K migrated TOGETHER with R1a into Baikal. Good evidence that R1a1 is from Iran!!!

yes, R1a1 came from west, but K* is the founder of the tribe, and he came with pottery, it means he came from east
just like the mtDNA which is mostly eastern and some western

Goga
20-11-16, 01:51
yes, R1a1 came from west, but K* is the founder of the tribe, and he came with pottery, it means he came from east
just like the mtDNA which is mostly eastern and some western
What do yo mean by 'East'? Y-DNA hg. K seems to be Caucasoid (WEST Eurasian), since it is related to J (J2a) and I (I1b & I2a). K was ancestral to L & T. L & T are native to the Iranian Plateau (SouthCentral Asia). So, K entered Baikal, like R1a1, also from the SouthWEST. K & R1a1 migrated together...


http://i.imgur.com/EzKi5SU.jpg

Goga
20-11-16, 04:34
Btw, those R1a1 samples predate PIE. So this is the last HUGE nail in the coffin of those who say that R1a migrated from the eastern Europe into Central Asia with Indo-Europeans (Indo-Iranians).


That R1a1 is from "7500–7000 cal BP" !!!

7500-7000 cal BP = 5500 BC. That's thousands of years before Yamnaya Horizon . So, there was already R1a1 in Baikal area, just north of Mongolia, thousands of years before Yamnaya culture. I'm sure it was from Iran, since R1a is evolved in Iran. Since they also found hg. P in Early Neolithic eastern Iranian Plateau.


So say goodbye to the so called Potlavka/Sintashta (2000 BC) migation theory into east of the internet losers...

bicicleur
20-11-16, 10:04
Btw, those R1a1 samples predate PIE. So this is the last HUGE nail in the coffin of those who say that R1a migrated from the eastern Europe into Central Asia with Indo-Europeans (Indo-Iranians).


That R1a1 is from "7500–7000 cal BP" !!!

7500-7000 cal BP = 5500 BC. That's thousands of years before Yamnaya Horizon . So, there was already R1a1 in Baikal area, just north of Mongolia, thousands of years before Yamnaya culture. I'm sure it was from Iran, since R1a is evolved in Iran. Since they also found hg. P in Early Neolithic eastern Iranian Plateau.


So say goodbye to the so called Potlavka/Sintashta (2000 BC) migation theory into east of the internet losers...

this R1a1a clan is 14000 years old, they have nothing to do with PIE

PIE is R1b-M269, R1b-M473 and R1a1a1-M417 only, and it starts only 6500 years ago

you keep on making the same mistake

rafc
20-11-16, 10:08
It's an interesting study, but I don't understand why you relate aDNA from 7000ybp to a migration from 4000ybp. All the study says is they found R1a-M17 in that Baikal area. Yfull has a Tmrca of 8500ybp for this clade so there's no contradiction there. Either these R1a-M17's moved here from another 'R1a homeland', wherever that may be, or this was part of the homeland and part of R1a later moved west where they interacted with Yamnaya, took part in corded ware expansion and maybe eventually the Sintashta migration.

Maciamo
20-11-16, 10:34
Btw, those R1a1 samples predate PIE. So this is the last HUGE nail in the coffin of those who say that R1a migrated from the eastern Europe into Central Asia with Indo-Europeans (Indo-Iranians).


That R1a1 is from "7500–7000 cal BP" !!!

7500-7000 cal BP = 5500 BC. That's thousands of years before Yamnaya Horizon . So, there was already R1a1 in Baikal area, just north of Mongolia, thousands of years before Yamnaya culture. I'm sure it was from Iran, since R1a is evolved in Iran. Since they also found hg. P in Early Neolithic eastern Iranian Plateau.


So say goodbye to the so called Potlavka/Sintashta (2000 BC) migation theory into east of the internet losers...

Ah my poor Goga, how much you still have to learn. They found R1a1-M17 (aka M198), which according to Yfull arose 14,000 years ago. We have known since the testing of the Ma'lta boy that Y-haplogroup R was in Siberia 23,000 years ago, and that the migration of R to Europe is linked to the ANE admixture (which is modelled on the Ma'lta genome). It was also confirmed that both R1a and R1b were present in Palaeolithic and Mesolithic Russia (16,500-year-old R1b* at Afontova Gora; 8,500 year-old R1a1-M17 in Karelia; 7,500 year-old R1b1a-P297 in Samara) and even further west (14,000 year-old R1b* at Villabruna in Italy). This is R1a1-M17 a Palaeolithic Northeast European and Siberian lineage, not yet the Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware R1a1a-M417, nor the later Sintashta R1a1a1b2-Z93. You don't seem to have any sense of phylogenetic chronology. Furthermore you do not seem to grasp that finding R1a Palaeolithic hunter-gathers in one place does not preclude them from living somewhere else too. Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers were highly mobile and roamed over huge areas in search of game (like mammoths), especially in places in Siberia were seasonal migrations would have been important. As tribes grew in size, they split and moved in different directions so as not to compete over resources. That's completely normal that they ended scattered over all Europe and North Asia.

The R1a1-M17, Q1a, and C3 identified in EN Lake Baikal in this new study could all have been descendants of Siberian Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers. The Neolithic newcomers could be K (or more likely P1). Out of 59 samples, only two belonged to R1a, and they were among the most recent, confirming that they were just a small minority of newcomers to the region. The vast majority of paternal lineages belonged to K* or Q1a. All the mtDNA lineages were Mongoloid, except for some Palaeolithic East European U5a at Shamanka II and at the Lokomotiv cemetery where R1a1-M17 was found (see page 30). If anything that proves beyond doubt that R1a1-M17 is of East European origin, and that R1* or R1a* moved from Siberia to Europe before the end of the last glaciation. No other Y-DNA lineage could have brought U5a from Europe to the Lake Baikal region, and there is no doubt at all that U5a is European in origin.

Maciamo
20-11-16, 11:01
Any of you guys have any ideas on what the ydna "K" found there could be?

I haven't had time to read the full paper, but I am wondering which SNP's the author tested. It seems that he is using a rather antiquated phylogeny, still referring to C3 for C-M217, a nomenclature last seen in the 2013 ISOGG tree. Since 2014 it's been called C2. If so, that K* could really be K2b2a, which is the same as haplogroup P1 (M45) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K2b_(Y-DNA)#P1_.28K2b2a.29). This P1 is common from Mongolia to Northeast Siberia, and is found at lower frequencies in the Caucasus, Iran, India, Tibet and Southeast Asia.

Haplogroup P1 was found in Early Neolithic Iran (8000-7700 BCE) by Lazaridis at al. 2016. Since the oldest clades of P1 are found around the Caucasus and Iran, and that these K (P1?) tribes seem to be the ones who brought pottery to the Lake Baikal region, I would think that they originated around the Caucasus or Iran. Annoyingly some mtDNA samples are just listed as others, with no indication of what they could be. I wouldn't be surprised to find mt-haplogroup HV, N1a, N1b, W and/or X, which are all found in modern Altaians and Caucasians alike.

bicicleur
20-11-16, 11:07
It's an interesting study, but I don't understand why you relate aDNA from 7000ybp to a migration from 4000ybp. All the study says is they found R1a-M17 in that Baikal area. Yfull has a Tmrca of 8500ybp for this clade so there's no contradiction there. Either these R1a-M17's moved here from another 'R1a homeland', wherever that may be, or this was part of the homeland and part of R1a later moved west where they interacted with Yamnaya, took part in corded ware expansion and maybe eventually the Sintashta migration.

indeed Yfull gives a split 8500 ka, but they have only 2 branches, a European and a SW Asian, the east Siberian branch is not represented in Yfull, which means they could have split much earlier

bicicleur
20-11-16, 11:09
I haven't had time to read the full paper, but I am wondering which SNP's the author tested. It seems that he is using a rather antiquated phylogeny, still referring to C3 for C-M217, a nomenclature last seen in the 2013 ISOGG tree. Since 2014 it's been called C2. If so, that K* could really be K2b2a, which is the same as haplogroup P1 (M45) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K2b_(Y-DNA)#P1_.28K2b2a.29). This P1 is common from Mongolia to Northeast Siberia, and is found at lower frequencies in the Caucasus, Iran, India, Tibet and Southeast Asia.

Haplogroup P1 was found in Early Neolithic Iran (8000-7700 BCE) by Lazaridis at al. 2016. Since the oldest clades of P1 are found around the Caucasus and Iran, and that these K (P1?) tribes seem to be the ones who brought pottery to the Lake Baikal region, I would think that they originated around the Caucasus or Iran. Annoyingly some mtDNA samples are just listed as others, with no indication of what they could be. I wouldn't be surprised to find mt-haplogroup HV, N1a, N1b, W and/or X, which are all found in modern Altaians and Caucasians alike.

somewher I've read it is K-M9, that is this one

https://www.yfull.com/tree/K/

Maciamo
20-11-16, 11:24
somewher I've read it is K-M9, that is this one

https://www.yfull.com/tree/K/

K-M9 is just K*. It means that the author didn't test for SNP's downstream. I seriously doubt that it is just K*.

rafc
20-11-16, 12:49
K-M9 is just K*. It means that the author didn't test for SNP's downstream. I seriously doubt that it is just K*.

Looking at the SNP's he's tested at least the following possibilities are still open:
-LT
-M
-S
-K2c
-K2d
-K-M2335*
-N-L666
-N-F2905
-N-Y6503

Goga
20-11-16, 13:01
Ah my poor Goga, how much you still have to learn. They found R1a1-M17 (aka M198), which according to Yfull arose 14,000 years ago. We have known since the testing of the Ma'lta boy that Y-haplogroup R was in Siberia 23,000 years ago, and that the migration of R to Europe is linked to the ANE admixture (which is modelled on the Ma'lta genome). It was also confirmed that both R1a and R1b were present in Palaeolithic and Mesolithic Russia (16,500-year-old R1b* at Afontova Gora; 8,500 year-old R1a1-M17 in Karelia; 7,500 year-old R1b1a-P297 in Samara) and even further west (14,000 year-old R1b* at Villabruna in Italy). This is R1a1-M17 a Palaeolithic Northeast European and Siberian lineage, not yet the Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware R1a1a-M417, nor the later Sintashta R1a1a1b2-Z93. You don't seem to have any sense of phylogenetic chronology. Furthermore you do not seem to grasp that finding R1a Palaeolithic hunter-gathers in one place does not preclude them from living somewhere else too. Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers were highly mobile and roamed over huge areas in search of game (like mammoths), especially in places in Siberia were seasonal migrations would have been important. As tribes grew in size, they split and moved in different directions so as not to compete over resources. That's completely normal that they ended scattered over all Europe and North Asia.
Yeah, but you don't get my point. That mean that R1a arose in Iran, like many recent academic papers are saying. They found very ancient R1a outside Europe, in this part of the world. This means that it could be that there was no migration from northwestern Eurasia into southeastern Eurasia. So, we can now link R1a also to a Gedrosia component. Areas in southcentral Asia and Northern India are full of R1a and in that part of the world there are huge amounts of Gedrosia.

Original R1b = Gedrosia
Original R1a = Gedrosia

Where is your evidence now that R1a1a-M417 arose in Europe??? These findings make possible that there could be a migration of M417 from southcentral Asia into the Steppes, because we have evidence now that R1a in Asia is also very ancient.

It is actually most likely that R1a-M417 entered Europe from Central Asia.


And bye bye to the theories that R1a was proto-Indo-European. Only some much-later R1a haplogroups could be identified with Indo-Europeans.

Maciamo
20-11-16, 13:03
Looking at the SNP's he's tested at least the following possibilities are still open:
-LT
-M
-S
-K2c
-K2d
-K-M2335*
-N-L666
-N-F2905
-N-Y6503

I doubt that the author didn't test at least for haplogroups L, N and T. The others are found mostly in Melanesia, so it's safe to rule them out.

rafc
20-11-16, 13:26
I doubt that the author didn't test at least for haplogroups L, N and T. The others are found mostly in Melanesia, so it's safe to rule them out.

He did test for N-TAT, leaving at least the four possibilities I listed for N. As far as I see none of the 13 SNP's he tested belonged to L or T.

Maciamo
20-11-16, 14:15
He did test for N-TAT, leaving at least the four possibilities I listed for N. As far as I see none of the 13 SNP's he tested belonged to L or T.

That's not very professional of him to leave out top-level haplogroups. For all we know the various K* reported could belong to Y-haplogroups N and/or P1, which both represent a sizeable percentage of the Y-DNA in the region today. While P1 was confirmed in Early Neolithic Iran, N*, N1 and N1c were found in Ealy Neolithic Manchuria and are linked with the diffusion of pottery across Siberia until the eastern Baltic. That's one of the top candidates as Neolithic newcomers to the Baikal region. How could the author not test it? It's as if somewhere studied Yamna Y-DNA and 'forgot' to test for haplogroup R and its subclades. Unbelievable!

Brennos
20-11-16, 15:32
Ah my poor Goga, how much you still have to learn. They found R1a1-M17 (aka M198), which according to Yfull arose 14,000 years ago. We have known since the testing of the Ma'lta boy that Y-haplogroup R was in Siberia 23,000 years ago, and that the migration of R to Europe is linked to the ANE admixture (which is modelled on the Ma'lta genome). It was also confirmed that both R1a and R1b were present in Palaeolithic and Mesolithic Russia (16,500-year-old R1b* at Afontova Gora; 8,500 year-old R1a1-M17 in Karelia; 7,500 year-old R1b1a-P297 in Samara) and even further west (14,000 year-old R1b* at Villabruna in Italy). This is R1a1-M17 a Palaeolithic Northeast European and Siberian lineage, not yet the Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware R1a1a-M417, nor the later Sintashta R1a1a1b2-Z93. You don't seem to have any sense of phylogenetic chronology. Furthermore you do not seem to grasp that finding R1a Palaeolithic hunter-gathers in one place does not preclude them from living somewhere else too. Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers were highly mobile and roamed over huge areas in search of game (like mammoths), especially in places in Siberia were seasonal migrations would have been important. As tribes grew in size, they split and moved in different directions so as not to compete over resources. That's completely normal that they ended scattered over all Europe and North Asia.

The R1a1-M17, Q1a, and C3 identified in EN Lake Baikal in this new study could all have been descendants of Siberian Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers. The Neolithic newcomers could be K (or more likely P1). Out of 59 samples, only two belonged to R1a, and they were among the most recent, confirming that they were just a small minority of newcomers to the region. The vast majority of paternal lineages belonged to K* or Q1a. All the mtDNA lineages were Mongoloid, except for some Palaeolithic East European U5a at Shamanka II and at the Lokomotiv cemetery where R1a1-M17 was found (see page 30). If anything that proves beyond doubt that R1a1-M17 is of East European origin, and that R1* or R1a* moved from Siberia to Europe before the end of the last glaciation. No other Y-DNA lineage could have brought U5a from Europe to the Lake Baikal region, and there is no doubt at all that U5a is European in origin.

That R1b from Afontova Gora was a mtDNA haplogroup, not a Y-DNA one.

Rethel
20-11-16, 15:43
And bye bye to the theories that R1a was proto-Indo-European. Only some much-later R1a haplogroups could be identified with Indo-Europeans.

Man, to be IE, you do not have to be in Europe.
You could be IE in Gedrosia too, really, even if
that absurd possibility would be true, people still
would be the same people, not different.

And not R1a, but whole R1.

bicicleur
21-11-16, 17:20
What do yo mean by 'East'? Y-DNA hg. K seems to be Caucasoid (WEST Eurasian), since it is related to J (J2a) and I (I1b & I2a). K was ancestral to L & T. L & T are native to the Iranian Plateau (SouthCentral Asia). So, K entered Baikal, like R1a1, also from the SouthWEST. K & R1a1 migrated together...


http://i.imgur.com/EzKi5SU.jpg

this map exactly matches my theory, but only for the R1a1, not the K
the R1a and R1b tribes originated some 15 ka along the upstream areas of Oxus and Jaxartes rivers
but only a few went to Bajkal
some went downstream Oxus and Jaxartes and arrived in Europe as EHG
others went west to NW Iran / Transcaucasia / Anatolia, while R2 arrived more south, in Lurestan
some of them in NW Iran / Transcaucasia / Anatolia crossed Caucasus 6.7 ka and joined their EHG brothers and formed Khvalynsk culture, the origin of IE

but I'm sorry Goga, I don't believe at all IE expanded from Iran, it was from the Khvalynsk area

bicicleur
21-11-16, 17:28
I haven't had time to read the full paper, but I am wondering which SNP's the author tested. It seems that he is using a rather antiquated phylogeny, still referring to C3 for C-M217, a nomenclature last seen in the 2013 ISOGG tree. Since 2014 it's been called C2. If so, that K* could really be K2b2a, which is the same as haplogroup P1 (M45) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K2b_(Y-DNA)#P1_.28K2b2a.29). This P1 is common from Mongolia to Northeast Siberia, and is found at lower frequencies in the Caucasus, Iran, India, Tibet and Southeast Asia.

Haplogroup P1 was found in Early Neolithic Iran (8000-7700 BCE) by Lazaridis at al. 2016. Since the oldest clades of P1 are found around the Caucasus and Iran, and that these K (P1?) tribes seem to be the ones who brought pottery to the Lake Baikal region, I would think that they originated around the Caucasus or Iran. Annoyingly some mtDNA samples are just listed as others, with no indication of what they could be. I wouldn't be surprised to find mt-haplogroup HV, N1a, N1b, W and/or X, which are all found in modern Altaians and Caucasians alike.

the author mentions K, not tested for subclades and K*, tested for subclades, and he indicates as K-M9

Goga
21-11-16, 17:33
but I'm sorry Goga, I don't believe at all IE expanded from Iran, it was from the Khvalynsk areaYou are free to believe what you want.

Most established scientists don't agree with you. Khvalynsk has NOTHING to do with Indo-Europeans. According to them the ORIGIN of the European Indo-Europeans is in the Yamnaya Horizon.
But the SECOND stage IEan Yamnaya culture was heavily influenced by people from the Iranian Plateau. Those Iranian people were the FIRST stage proto-IEans. This is an established fact!


Khvalynsk culture was way to much URALIC aka 'Mongoloid' (Y-DNA hg. N1c1, Q etc.). Ancient Indo-Europeans were NOT 'URALIC', Finno-Ugric or whatever , lol.

Sile
21-11-16, 18:24
To all theories of IE ( PIE ) be it that originated in western Urals, yamna or Gedrosia , the facts are, the first split from PIE occurred around 4000BC in Anatolia...........whatever theory you have needs to fit with a major migration to bring PIE into Anatolia. If you can fit the first split into your theory, then ok, if not , your theory fails.

johen
21-11-16, 19:16
Is there any possibility for Lake Baikal Neolithic green pottery people to move into Anatolia 4,000bc w/ lE language? And R1a1 and Q1a2 moved Khvalynsk culture w/ language also.
https://s32.postimg.org/icxxjzfqt/Capture.png

-R1a1 and Q1a2 continued to stay in Altai area:

Hollard et al., Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age, In the same way, the patrilineal gene pool revealed the presence of different haplogroups (Q1a2a1-L54, R1a1a1b2-Z93 and C)


Anthrologist C. Brace also mentioned that mongol bronze crania specimen be close to Native american:
Mongolia is a long way east of any of the other samples used, but it has previously been shown that the Mongolian Bronze Age sample is unrelated to modern Mongols and has more in common with prehistoric Europeans and the Native Americans of the United States-Canada border.

a. Scythian spoke in IndoEuropean, who were Altai natives speaking in IndoEuropean:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31324-Where-did-proto-IE-language-start/page9?p=494183#post494183

The Scythian had also Q1a2 culture:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32890-2500-year-old-remains-with-severed-heads-found-in-Siberia?p=491304#post491304

b. 1,600bc Q1a2 might enter China shang dynasty with Indo-European Language. Hg R people never went there.


It is known that the Chinese borrowed a number of words dealing with wheels and chariots from Indo-European sources. Archeology tells us that the art of making spoked wheels, and thus chariots light enough to be drawn by horses, was developed at the western end of Asia, around the southern Urals, in the third and early second millennia B.C. We do not know for certain that the mummy people used chariots, but given the known facts, it seems likely that they did, and that they transmitted this know-how to the Shan tribe of Chinese. There is no doubt that a sizable chunk of ancient Chinese vocabulary came from Indo-European—not only to do with chariotry, but also in architecture, divination, healing and other matters.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33035-Classify-me-(Chinese-guy)?p=493564#post493564
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33037-ANE-Karitiana-and-Baltics

-R1b
a.Afanasievo culture(3,500bc) predated Yamna(3,300bc) by David Anthony. They were related with Botai horse domestication and Torchain. It did not make sense that the Repin people brought botai culture into Afanasievo.

b. If R1b wiped out natives in yamna, and came to afanasievo, it was impossible for them to live together with Okunevo Indian(maybe Q1a2), who were altai natives for 22,000y to keep malta boy blood.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7797-what-type-of-Hg-was-found-in-Okunevo-culture-of-Altai-Mt-2-500bc-R1a-or-R1b


c. And also if kurgan was created in the west, it is difficult to explain why tons of mounds(kurgan) are in north America.
http://www.wisconsinmounds.com/IndianMoundsParkStPaul.html

johen
21-11-16, 19:41
And Q1a2 culture of hairstyle survived for so and so long time. Even in Indo-Aryan, west scythian, east scythian, avar, hun, magyar, and etcmaybe yamna people also had one of those hair style. How can the styles be kept in central asia for thousand and thousand years, if west people dominated central asia from Afanasievo?http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31324-Where-did-proto-IE-language-start/page10?p=494286#post494286https://s16.postimg.org/aasloiu1x/Capture.pnghttp://www.eliwhitney.org/7/workshop/projects/woodland-villagehttp://www.native-languages.org/hair.htm

bicicleur
21-11-16, 22:50
He did test for N-TAT, leaving at least the four possibilities I listed for N. As far as I see none of the 13 SNP's he tested belonged to L or T.

you're right, I drew some conclusions a bit to fast

MarkoZ
22-11-16, 16:38
c. And also if kurgan was created in the west, it is difficult to explain why tons of mounds(kurgan) are in north America.
http://www.wisconsinmounds.com/IndianMoundsParkStPaul.html

Well, aren't Kurgans really just piles of dirt when it comes down to it?

Aaron1981
22-11-16, 17:02
But K was related to I, J, T & L. Where can we find I, J, T and L?

Not sure about I (I1 & I2 seems to be antive to Europe), but J1, J2, T & L are native to the Zagros Mountains (J1 & J2) & Iranian Plateau (T & L).


They found K together with R1a1. So it seems that K migrated TOGETHER with R1a into Baikal. Good evidence that R1a1 is from Iran!!!

No...K is not related to IJ. In fact these are mutually exclusive. You could argue LMNOPQRST are more closely related to K, since they all descend from him, but he has absolutely nothing to do with I or J.

MarkoZ
22-11-16, 17:40
No...K is not related to IJ. In fact these are mutually exclusive.

That's exactly what I've tried to explain to my siblings at the last family gathering.

Sile
22-11-16, 18:54
No...K is not related to IJ. In fact these are mutually exclusive. You could argue LMNOPQRST are more closely related to K, since they all descend from him, but he has absolutely nothing to do with I or J.

he is says that K, I and J where once in a union

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_IJK

look at the chart in link by, M Van Oven ...................the person that does the Y trees for everyone

johen
22-11-16, 20:17
Well, aren't Kurgans really just piles of dirt when it comes down to it?

Right, PIE kurgan mounds are very specific.

1. American Indian mounds had no corded pottery which was found in Botai also, starting from Lake Baikal. There is opinion that the corded type started from Balkan area.

http://s32.postimg.org/yxyr25x5h/image.png
http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.ca/2015/12/corded-ware-cultures-actually-related.html

And also the mound had no pointed pottery like comb ware which started from Liao area thru lake baikal to Finland.

2. However, grave mounds where body was buried in crouched/fetal position, covered in red-ocher

http://www.bcvideo.com/ImagesNewWeb/screen%20grabs/redpaint3.jpg

This NOVA Special reveals the fascinating story of an unknown seafaring tribe which explored the shores of North America 7,000 years ago.
These ancient Americans rivaled their European counterparts in navigational skills several millennia before the Vikings. These people used sophisticated tools and excelled in navigation. For unknown reasons these ancient sailors covered their dead with red ochre.
This strange discovery is re-enacted on location. The film follows US, Canadian, and European scientists from the barrens of Labrador - where archaeologists uncover an ancient burial mound - to sites in the U.S., France, England, and Denmark.

bell beaker
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-d2shuHhn7gc/U5dtR0IHMWI/AAAAAAAAAZg/zstQMZ_1e3M/s1600/Rothenschirmbach+woman.JPG

Mississippian American Indian
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Mississippian_culture_stone_box_burial_flexed_HRoe _2011.jpg

yamna
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Yamna_culture_tomb.jpg

cherokee
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Dpi52Th2Ha8/UVnj7iimqBI/AAAAAAAALHI/wdTkQ6us6BE/s1600/Cherokee-burial-desecrated.jpg