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Sile
26-11-16, 06:32
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Friday, November 25, 2016

First news of Hunnic and Botai aDNA



According to this Kazakh press report, remains from an elite Hunnic burial in what is now Hungary belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup L and mitochondrial (mtDNA) haplogroup D4j12.
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and
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http://www.np.kz/hotnewstop/20716-ka...nk-proekt.html (http://www.np.kz/hotnewstop/20716-kazahstanskiy-dnk-proekt.html)

The article in Russian, describes Kazakhstan DNA project. Among other things, there is an interview with Leyla Jansugurova, head of Institute of General Genetics of Kazakhstan. Here is the slightly edited automatic translation of the part of interview, where she speaks about aDNA(UPD: As far as I know, none of these results is published):

Paleogenetics in Kazakhstan

- Did this successful experience of collaborative interdisciplinary research by geneticists and historians continue?

- Yes. Moreover, on the basis of our Institute of General genetics and Cytology in cooperation with the Institute of archaeology named after A. Kh. Margulan in 2014, the laboratory of population genetics was created. Its goal is to study the genetic structure of modern populations of Kazakhstan and determination of genetic relationships with the ancient nomadic tribes of Central Asia. To start we have compiled a directory of ancient human skeletal remains and important archaeological finds in Kazakhstan, related to the ethnogenesis of the Kazakhs and available for paleogenetics research.


- I want to note that DNA analysis of bone remains from ancient graves very complicated and expensive method. It requires high tech equipment, supersterility of the experiment and staff development. Therefore, the selection of the bone material is very important. At first, we concentrated on artifacts representing ancient periods of the settlement of the territory of Kazakhstan and available for DNA analysis: it is a human skull from the settlement of Botai in Northern Kazakhstan, the skeleton of the Hun period from the natural history Museum (Budapest) and the remains of the so-called Urdzhar Princess. As you know, in 2014, in Urdzhar district of East Kazakhstan region in one of the kurgans, in a zone of reconstruction of the road Taskesken - Bakta, was found undisturbed burial of women of the Saka period. Under the kurgan in a stone sarcophagus there were remains of a young woman of noble birth. Analysis of ancient DNA showed that the age of burial - III-IV century BC, while mtDNA haplogroup of Urdzhar Princess - D4o. Haplogroup belongs to the “Asian branch”, who left a wide trail in the Eastern Altai, Siberia, the far North of Eurasia and among the indigenous population of America. The mother of the founder of this haplogroup lived between 9300 - 18 400 years ago in Northern Asia.

As for the ancient Hun from Hungary, dated to the middle third of the V century, the type of burial and his outfit showed that this young man belonged to the Hun elite and may have been related by the origin to the ancient Turkic tribes of Kazakhstan. DNA analysis of an ancient Hun of the skeleton determined the haplogroup L of Y-chromosome and mtDNA D4j12, which is evidence of the Asian origin of the paternal and maternal lines of this ancient find from Europe. And, what is most interesting: the type of the Y-chromosome (L-haplogroup) was found among Kazakh tribe of Argyns!

Exploring the skull from Botai, we found that it was a man, his mtDNA haplogroup is K1b2, which is of Eastern European origin and is very common in the modern population of Western Europe and America.

Tomenable
26-11-16, 10:52
Ancient Hunnic chieftain had Y-DNA haplogroup L (source in Russian):

http://www.np.kz/hotnewstop/20716-kazahstanskiy-dnk-proekt.html


(...) As for the ancient Hun from Hungary, dated to the middle third of the V century, the type of burial and his outfit showed that this young man belonged to the Hun elite and may have been related by the origin to the ancient Turkic tribes of Kazakhstan. DNA analysis of an ancient Hun of the skeleton determined the haplogroup L of Y-chromosome and mtDNA D4j12, which is evidence of the Asian origin of the paternal and maternal lines of this ancient find from Europe. And, what is most interesting: the type of the Y-chromosome (L-haplogroup) was found among Kazakh tribe of Argyns!

Exploring the skull from Botai, we found that it was a man, his mtDNA haplogroup is K1b2, which is of Eastern European origin and is very common in the modern population of Western Europe and America.

- Most interesting - his Y chromosome.

- Unfortunately, haplogroup on the Y-chromosome, we did not have time to identify. We ran out of expensive reagents and the money allocated for research. In addition, we have assembled a genetic Bank that represents the current population of Kazakhstan is 1,524 with a detailed ancestry tree(shezhere), so the ethnic picture of the present, we can compare with the ancient finds. This is something we will work on.

Subclades of Y-DNA haplogroup L today:

http://i.imgur.com/TphXqAe.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TphXqAe.jpg

MOESAN
26-11-16, 12:59
Thanks Tomenable

Rethel
27-11-16, 00:11
- Unfortunately, haplogroup on the Y-chromosome, we did not have time to identify.

If it is not imbecilism, then I dont now, what is.

LeBrok
27-11-16, 00:18
What time period we are talking about?

A. Papadimitriou
27-11-16, 12:56
What was his subclade, though? Because Huns appear in Europe in the 4th century AD supposedly. L1b could have been there much earlier.

gyms
27-11-16, 16:18
What was his subclade, though? Because Huns appear in Europe in the 4th century AD supposedly. L1b could have been there much earlier.

What do you mean,men?

A. Papadimitriou
27-11-16, 16:53
I mean what I said. Since L1b exists all over Europe pretty much, if it was L1b it could have been 'native' (in the sense that it could have been there much earlier than the 4th century AD). If it was L1c or L1a most likely not.

Alan
27-11-16, 18:14
As I wrote in the past, the Huns were originally an East Iranic tribe known as far back as in the Avesta as Xiiaona, they lived in the region later known as Bactria and Transoxania.

With time passing other tribes joined the Huns. And the Huns known during the Roman times where a large confederation of the original Huns (Xionites) with Mongol and Turkic tribes. So no wonder that we find West_South_Central Asian yDNA and East Eurasian mtDNA among their ranks. Which is actually typical of the trend we see in Central Asia even today. What is kinda weird if we go by the assumption thrown around that the language was brought by the paternal ancestors. In this special case however it seems females had much bigger influence on it as we think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites

A. Papadimitriou
27-11-16, 18:55
As I wrote in the past, the Huns were originally an East Iranic tribe known as far back as in the Avesta as Xiiaona, they lived in the region later known as Bactria and Transoxania.

With time passing other tribes joined the Huns. And the Huns known during the Roman times where a large confederation of the original Huns (Xionites) with Mongol and Turkic tribes. So no wonder that we find West_South_Central Asian yDNA and East Eurasian mtDNA among their ranks. Which is actually typical of the trend we see in Central Asia even today. What is kinda weird if we go by the assumption thrown around that the language was brought by the paternal ancestors. In this special case however it seems females had much bigger influence on it as we think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites
Can you post a primary source?

MOESAN
27-11-16, 20:47
just a general remark of relative worth: I don't rely too much in this concept of "maternal" languages, it's to say the transmission by females very often from vainquished people. Personal thought only.

johen
27-11-16, 21:45
One of American indian hairstyle:

In Eastern tribes like the Lenape (http://www.bigorrin.org/lenape_kids.htm) and Iroquois (http://www.bigorrin.org/iroquois_kids.htm) tribes, most warriors shaved their heads except for a scalplock (a single lock of hair on the crown of their head)

Indo Aryan Hairstyle
http://web.archive.org/web/20160707194638im_/http://thehistoryofthehairsworld.com/sikhh.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31324-Where-did-proto-IE-language-start/page10?p=494286#post494286

Scythian hairstyle
http://web.archive.org/web/20160701120150im_/http://s33.postimg.org/fq9szwtpb/Capture.png
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31324-Where-did-proto-IE-language-start/page10?p=494286#post494286

Hun was not exceptional at all:
https://s21.postimg.org/haasbo0jb/Capture.png
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924082470273#page/n167/mode/2up

MOESAN
27-11-16, 22:01
concerning hairs modes, I recall barbarian tribes (like us today) changed more than a time their hair fashion.
And sometimes an ethnic group under political domination of another one, adopted the modes of this last one, not only for hair cut, but also until head (skull) deformation. So the ethnicity of some modes cannot always be too easily established, not in every case.

Alan
27-11-16, 23:38
Can you post a primary source?

I just posted the source below my takes which you quoted dear.

Alan
28-11-16, 00:18
The Argyn (Kazakh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_language): Арғын) clan is a constituent of the Kazakh ethnicity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_people). The present-day Argyns of Kazakhstan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan) are generally regarded as descended from a nomadic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad) people known as the Basmyl (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmyl) and both names are said to mean "mixed tribe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_race)".

johen
28-11-16, 06:22
concerning hairs modes, I recall barbarian tribes (like us today) changed more than a time their hair fashion.
And sometimes an ethnic group under political domination of another one, adopted the modes of this last one, not only for hair cut, but also until head (skull) deformation. So the ethnicity of some modes cannot always be too easily established, not in every case.

Scythian had elongated skull also, which meant “sun” in shamanism.
As far as I know, hairstyle was not a fashion, but a tradition to nomad people. So the original descendants kept their tradition, I think.
Think about the hairstyle of Magyar who shaved their heads except three long braids. This tradition has been kept until 19 century in East Europe.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=dvV...20long&f=false (https://books.google.ca/books?id=dvVQbhxa4OUC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=maygar+people+shaved+their+head+except+three+lo ng&source=bl&ots=BWboxLd7Mz&sig=BEnkt5hPq_jMtF4UclcfwMNIh0s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiP84-F0o_QAhVV62MKHUmyCo8Q6AEILDAF#v=onepage&q=maygar%20people%20shaved%20their%20head%20except %20three%20long&f=false)

Moreover, I think polish Sarmatianism from 16c to 18c was also the same case.

Traditional Slavic Hair Styles:
http://www.slovacivosvete.sk/data/att/525_obr.jpg

Maybe Yazidi man with plaited hair. Northern Iraq(I am not sure):
https://s12.postimg.org/oj0m25yp9/abc.jpg

same hair style in american indian:
http://imageenvision.com/photo/7058-mandan-native-american-man-with-braids-spotted-bull-by-jvpd

Belmonde
28-11-16, 16:19
I am planning to conduct such a study on more necropolises found in Hungary, Ukraine and Bulgaria. But no funding so far.

Alan
28-11-16, 19:32
Scythian had elongated skull also, which meant “sun” in shamanism.
As far as I know, hairstyle was not a fashion, but a tradition to nomad people. So the original descendants kept their tradition, I think.
Think about the hairstyle of Magyar who shaved their heads except three long braids. This tradition has been kept until 19 century in East Europe.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=dvV...20long&f=false (https://books.google.ca/books?id=dvVQbhxa4OUC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=maygar+people+shaved+their+head+except+three+lo ng&source=bl&ots=BWboxLd7Mz&sig=BEnkt5hPq_jMtF4UclcfwMNIh0s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiP84-F0o_QAhVV62MKHUmyCo8Q6AEILDAF#v=onepage&q=maygar%20people%20shaved%20their%20head%20except %20three%20long&f=false)

Moreover, I think polish Sarmatianism from 16c to 18c was also the same case.

Traditional Slavic Hair Styles:
http://www.slovacivosvete.sk/data/att/525_obr.jpg

Maybe Yazidi man with plaited hair. Northern Iraq(I am not sure):
https://s12.postimg.org/oj0m25yp9/abc.jpg



Yes is a Yezidi Kurd.

holderlin
29-11-16, 06:18
As I wrote in the past, the Huns were originally an East Iranic tribe known as far back as in the Avesta as Xiiaona, they lived in the region later known as Bactria and Transoxania.

With time passing other tribes joined the Huns. And the Huns known during the Roman times where a large confederation of the original Huns (Xionites) with Mongol and Turkic tribes. So no wonder that we find West_South_Central Asian yDNA and East Eurasian mtDNA among their ranks. Which is actually typical of the trend we see in Central Asia even today. What is kinda weird if we go by the assumption thrown around that the language was brought by the paternal ancestors. In this special case however it seems females had much bigger influence on it as we think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites


Wait wait wait, hold-up hod-up hud-up

The "Hunnic migrations" consisted of a large confederation of tribes, especially in the end, but the Huns themselves, "original Huns", were likely Altaic speaking, probably Turkic.

Huitzilopochtli
29-11-16, 14:35
Wait wait wait, hold-up hod-up hud-up

The "Hunnic migrations" consisted of a large confederation of tribes, especially in the end, but the Huns themselves, "original Huns", were likely Altaic speaking, probably Turkic.



A number of people have concluded that the Huns spoke a Yeniseian language or even an Iranian language. A study of a Xiongnu graveyard found that nearly half the Y hgs were R and Q (the rest were C), suggesting they descended from a Okunevo or Karasuk people that had absorbed an Altaic population in Mongolia.

holderlin
29-11-16, 16:03
A number of people have concluded that the Huns spoke a Yeniseian language or even an Iranian language. A study of a Xiongnu graveyard found that nearly half the Y hgs were R and Q (the rest were C), suggesting they descended from a Okunevo or Karasuk people that had absorbed an Altaic population in Mongolia.

It's still impossible to know, but I think it's most likely Turkic. I have a ton of sources, but in the end you have to theorize. Some of the latter findings are what they think was Hunnic script that looks like Turkic.

C, R, and Q are anywhere on the steppe and NE Asia.

Alan
29-11-16, 19:17
Wait wait wait, hold-up hod-up hud-up

The "Hunnic migrations" consisted of a large confederation of tribes, especially in the end, but the Huns themselves, "original Huns", were likely Altaic speaking, probably Turkic.

Read the link I provided. The first Huns to be ever mentioned are in the Avesta which predates the Hunnic appearance in European chronicles by thousands of years. They are called during that time Xioaonna. Even the Early Indo_Aryans knew them and called them Huna. Just as the term Turan which was basically a designation for East Iranics, it was later adopted for Turkic speakers.

The original, first Huns (White Huns) were East Iranic tribe. Later with time when food good sparse in Central Asia all the South_Central_East Asian tribes merged into a confederation under the Proto Huns. And the new Huns were born.

It doesn't matter what you or I think. The "sources" you mean are talking about the late state of Huns. As usual you don't interpret the things in the right way. If the Huns are mentioned in the Avesta as an East Iranic tribe thousand years before anything Turkic was even known. Those can't have been Turkic.

johen
29-11-16, 19:19
A number of people have concluded that the Huns spoke a Yeniseian language or even an Iranian language. A study of a Xiongnu graveyard found that nearly half the Y hgs were R and Q (the rest were C), suggesting they descended from a Okunevo(America Indian)or Karasuk people that had absorbed an Altaic population in Mongolia.

Hunnic culture was closely related with Q1a2 culture which was connected to shang/ zhou in china.

-20 graves of senior Asian Hun (also called by the Chinese name ’Xiongnu’), dating from the Third Century B.C.,

Read more: http://www.kaogu.cn/en/Special_Events/dierjieshanghailuntan/2015/1222/52514.html

http://cdn.ruvr.ru/2012/12/13/1279490821/2012_12_13.jpg

- shang dynasty tomb in china
http://gallery.sjsu.edu/sacrifice/shang%20tomb.jpg

- zhou dynasty tomb in china
http://www.ancient-encounters.com/AESE/Discovery_files/%20r1.jpg

- Olmec Chalcatzingo stone carving relic
http://www.ancient-encounters.com/AESE/Discovery_files/%20s_3.jpg


“Ya” Shape

The “ya” symbol represents the center of the universe; Two stone carvings are found in an important ruin, Chalcatzingo, of the Olmec culture in Mexico. The stone carvings depict zoomorphic figures with a mouth wide open representing the door between the worlds of the living and the dead. The opening of the mouth divides the boundaries between heaven and earth while the four corners facing inward allow space for four respective trees. The ya shape represents a cosmic diagram for the Olmec people with a big mouth and boundaries of heaven and earth in the four corners. Moreover, the trees assist in traversing between heaven and earth known as the four "cosmic trees”. This picture, the earth is square, but at each corner there are four trees, resulting in an inverted corner and creating a “ya” shape. In looking back at the “ya” shape, it raises a question: Did the “ya” shape from the Shang dynasty also form this way? Regarding Zong Miao Ming Tang that contains four cosmic trees, either “ruo tree”, “jian mu”, or “fusang”, were there indents because of these trees? In other words, is it because the Zong Miao Ming Tang had four trees, which resulted in the “ya” shape?




Note: KC Chang, Qingtong Huichen

- Archaeologists believe that this tomb was built to bury aristocrats from the state of Qi.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-board-game-found-in-looted-china-tomb1/


==> this tradition in nomad still in 557 to 581 AD
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4N3bEG-rodM/Vngi09M5J_I/AAAAAAAAJyg/4C2Npj3Urd8/s1600/princess-large-tomb.jpg


Tomb of a nomadic tribal princess will help unravel China’s complicated ethnic history
Ancient Origins by Mark Millar 19 December 2015 (http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/tomb-nomadic-tribal-princess-will-help-unravel-china-s-complicated-ethnic-020666)
Chinese archaeologists have excavated the sixth century tomb of a nomadic tribal princess of the ancient Tuyuhun Kingdom in northwest China’s Shaanxi Province. In the tomb they found two skeletons and 166 grave artifacts, including bronze ware, warrior and animal statues and inscriptions

Sile
29-11-16, 19:28
they state a elite hun

the type of burial and his outfit showed that this young man belonged to the Hun elite and may have been related by the origin to the ancient Turkic tribes of Kazakhstan. DNA analysis of an ancient Hun of the skeleton determined the haplogroup L of Y-chromosome and mtDNA D4j12, which is evidence of the Asian origin of the paternal and maternal lines of this ancient find from Europe

so his father was also Hg L and also elite family

Tomenable
29-11-16, 19:32
study of a Xiongnu graveyard found that nearly half the Y hgs were R and Q (the rest were C)

Three main Xiongnu Y hgs were C, Q and N. R was small minority.

Here are ancient DNA samples of Xiongnu/Hunnu haplogroups:

Places of origin of samples (four graveyards, not just one):

1) Egin Gol river valley cemetery in Mongolia
2) Duurling Nars cemetery in Mongolia
3) Barköl cemetery in Xinjiang, China
4) Birlik cemetery in Kazakhstan

Paternal lineages:

East Asian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 82%):

Haplo C2e - 3
Haplo C2 - 7
Haplo C - 1
Haplo Q1a2 - 3
Haplo Q1a3a - 3
Haplo Q1b - 1
Haplo N1c-Tat - 3
Haplo O3a2 - 1

West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 18%):

Haplo R1a - 3
Haplo R1b - 1
Haplo I2c - 1

Maternal lineages:

East Asian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 83%):

Haplo D4 - 19
Haplo D4o1 - 9
Haplo D5a - 1
Haplo D5 - 1
Haplo C - 4
Haplo C4a1 - 1
Haplo C5 - 1
Haplo F1b - 4
Haplo G2a - 1
Haplo G2 - 1
Haplo B4 - 1

Uncertain origin mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 3%):

Haplo M - 2

West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 14%):

Haplo U5a1a - 2
Haplo U2e1 - 1
Haplo U2 - 1
Haplo J1 - 2
Haplo H - 1

johen
29-11-16, 19:40
Three main Xiongnu Y hgs were C, Q and N. R was small minority.

Here are ancient DNA samples of Xiongnu/Hunnu haplogroups:

Places of origin of samples (four graveyards, not just one):

1) Egin Gol river valley cemetery in Mongolia
2) Duurling Nars cemetery in Mongolia
3) Barköl cemetery in Xinjiang, China
4) Birlik cemetery in Kazakhstan

Paternal lineages:

East Asian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 82%):

Haplo C2e - 3
Haplo C2 - 7
Haplo C - 1
Haplo Q1a2 - 3
Haplo Q1a3a - 3
Haplo Q1b - 1
Haplo N1c-Tat - 3
Haplo O3a2 - 1

West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 18%):

Haplo R1a - 3
Haplo R1b - 1
Haplo I2c - 1



again, R1a, Q1a2 and C series in Alati since neolithic



Individuals from Lokomotiv and Shamanka II were found to possess haplogroups K, R1a1 and C3, and individuals from Ust’-Ida and Kurma XI were found to belong to haplogroups Q, K and unidentified SNP (L914). For those individuals belonging to haplogroup Q, further experimentation to examine sub-haplogroups of Q revealed that these individuals belong to sub-haplogroup Q1a3

Hollard et al., Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age.

In the same way, the patrilineal gene pool revealed the presence of different haplogroups (Q1a2a1-L54, R1a1a1b2-Z93 and C)

Alan
29-11-16, 19:54
they state a elite hun

the type of burial and his outfit showed that this young man belonged to the Hun elite and may have been related by the origin to the ancient Turkic tribes of Kazakhstan. DNA analysis of an ancient Hun of the skeleton determined the haplogroup L of Y-chromosome and mtDNA D4j12, which is evidence of the Asian origin of the paternal and maternal lines of this ancient find from Europe

so his father was also Hg L and also elite family

Thats because the Elite/Proto Huns were East Iranic as I wrote above. No wonder you find West_South_Central Asian yDNA among them.

Even the Turkic tribe they are talking about (Argyn) are known to be of mixed origin.

The Argyn (Kazakh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_language): Арғын) clan is a constituent of the Kazakh ethnicity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_people). The present-day Argyns of Kazakhstan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan) are generally regarded as descended from a nomadic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad) people known as the Basmyl (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmyl) and both names are said to mean "mixed tribe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_race)".

Also take in mind two Hun period samples turned out J2a some years ago.

Alan
29-11-16, 20:02
Xionites, Chionites, or Chionitae (Middle Persian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language): Xiyon; Avestan: Xiiaona; Sogdian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdian_language): Xwn; Pahlavi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrian_Middle_Persian): Huna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huna_%28people%29)), or Hunni, Yun or Xūn (獯), were an Iranian-speaking people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples)[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites#cite_note-W.Felix-1) who were prominent in Transoxania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transoxania) and Bactria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria).

The Xionites (Chionitae) are first mentioned with Kushans (Cuseni) by Ammianus Marcellinus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammianus_Marcellinus) who spent the winter of 356-57 CE in their Balkh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkh) territory. They arrived with the wave of immigration from Central Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia) into Iran (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) in late antiquity. They were influenced by the Kushan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan) and Bactrian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria) cultures, while patronizing the Eastern Iranian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactrian_language) languages, and became a threat on the northeastern frontier of the Sassanid Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid_Empire).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites#cite_note-W.Felix-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites#cite_note-LINK-2)

In 1944 Carlile Aylmer Macartney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlile_Aylmer_Macartney) wrote:[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites#cite_note-5)



We must consider briefly a third nation playing a role in our sources: the Kermichiones. Who were these people? They cannot have been the Turks-Toue-Kioue, since their embassy reached Constantinople while the Avars were still negotiating with Rome for settlement inside the frontier-probably, therefore, as early as AD 558, whereas the true Turks appeared there first in 568; further, their ruler's name was `Aσκήλτ or Scultor, while the Khagan of the Turks at that time was Silzabul, Dizabul, or Istämi. Neither can they have been the Juan Juan, as Marquart suggests; nor the Epthalites, who were well known to the Byzantines and would not have been described in this way. Moreover, the Epthalites were known as White Huns, and Mr. Bailey has pointed out that the word Karmir xyon, meaning Red Chyon, occurs in a Pahlavi text in juxtaposition with SpEt xyon, White Chyon. The name Chyon, originally that of some other race, was "transferred later to the Huns owing to the similarity of sound". The nation can hardly be other than that which appears in the 4th century, under the name of Chionits, in the steppes on the north-west frontier of Persia. These Chionites were probably a branch of the Huns, the other branch of which afterwards appeared in Europe, the latter appear to have attacked and conquered by the Alans, then living between the Urals and the Volga about AD 360, while the first mention of the Chionites is dated AD 356. In the 5th century the name is replaced by that of the Kushan or of the Kidarite Huns, who are clearly identical with the Kushan.

A more recent specialist, Richard Nelson Frye (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nelson_Frye)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites#cite_note-6) wrote in 1991:



Just as later nomadic empires were confederations of many peoples, we may tentatively propose that the ruling groups of these invaders were, or at least included, Turkic-speaking tribesmen from the east and north, although most probably the bulk of the people in the confederation of Chionites and then Hephtalites spoke an Iranian language (...) This was the last time in the history of Central Asia that Iranian-speaking nomads played any role; hereafter all nomads would speak Turkic languages.








As written above. the Proto_Huns were an East Iranic people. With time passing the Huns turned into a confederation of Iranic-Turkic-Mongol elements with the final result that Turkic language took the overhand in Central Asia. The Huns themselves are described to have clothed and lived just like the Scythians.

Early Hun Period => Iranic
Later Hun Period => mixed confederation

holderlin
30-11-16, 05:04
Ah man. I don't want to do this argument again. Why did I bother. I studied this subject so much it made me sick of Huns for years.

holderlin
30-11-16, 05:06
I could certainly go to the shelf, grab my pile of papers and begin listing strange things like the names of every Hunnic leader in recorded history with language of origin.

holderlin
30-11-16, 05:28
As usual you don't interpret the things in the right way

Yeah, right. Nearly every time you post you essentially deny gravity. It's absurd, or perhaps the forum admins genius. I haven't figured it out.

Huitzilopochtli
30-11-16, 20:05
Three main Xiongnu Y hgs were C, Q and N. R was small minority.

Here are ancient DNA samples of Xiongnu/Hunnu haplogroups:

Places of origin of samples (four graveyards, not just one):

1) Egin Gol river valley cemetery in Mongolia
2) Duurling Nars cemetery in Mongolia
3) Barköl cemetery in Xinjiang, China
4) Birlik cemetery in Kazakhstan

Paternal lineages:

East Asian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 82%):

Haplo C2e - 3
Haplo C2 - 7
Haplo C - 1
Haplo Q1a2 - 3
Haplo Q1a3a - 3
Haplo Q1b - 1
Haplo N1c-Tat - 3
Haplo O3a2 - 1

West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 18%):

Haplo R1a - 3
Haplo R1b - 1
Haplo I2c - 1

Maternal lineages:

East Asian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 83%):

Haplo D4 - 19
Haplo D4o1 - 9
Haplo D5a - 1
Haplo D5 - 1
Haplo C - 4
Haplo C4a1 - 1
Haplo C5 - 1
Haplo F1b - 4
Haplo G2a - 1
Haplo G2 - 1
Haplo B4 - 1

Uncertain origin mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 3%):

Haplo M - 2

West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 14%):

Haplo U5a1a - 2
Haplo U2e1 - 1
Haplo U2 - 1
Haplo J1 - 2
Haplo H - 1

Thanks for providing the statistics. If the Xiongnu were immigrants from Siberia, we would expect them to ancestrally to have been a mixture of West Eurasian Y haplogroups (R1a, R1b, I2) and native Siberian Y haplogroups (Q). Grouping these haplogroups together we have 12 out of 26 (46%) of the Xiongnu samples in the “Siberian” group. They could be descendants of either the Okunevo or Karasuk cultures and we would expect them to speak a Tocharian-like language, Iranian, or Yeniseian. The latter two have published support with Yeniseian having more backers. When the Siberians migrated to Mongolia they would have met agriculturalists from Northern China with haplogroups C and N1c. They would likely have been conquered and absorbed by the Siberians with a superior Indo-European derived technological package. The Xiongnu were eventually routed by China and Altaic speaking groups (Turks, Para-Mongols) richer in haplogroup C became dominant. At least that’s the story which seems most likely at the moment.

MOESAN
02-12-16, 10:50
Scythian had elongated skull also, which meant “sun” in shamanism.
As far as I know, hairstyle was not a fashion, but a tradition to nomad people. So the original descendants kept their tradition, I think.
Think about the hairstyle of Magyar who shaved their heads except three long braids. This tradition has been kept until 19 century in East Europe.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=dvV...20long&f=false (https://books.google.ca/books?id=dvVQbhxa4OUC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=maygar+people+shaved+their+head+except+three+lo ng&source=bl&ots=BWboxLd7Mz&sig=BEnkt5hPq_jMtF4UclcfwMNIh0s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiP84-F0o_QAhVV62MKHUmyCo8Q6AEILDAF#v=onepage&q=maygar%20people%20shaved%20their%20head%20except %20three%20long&f=false)

Moreover, I think polish Sarmatianism from 16c to 18c was also the same case.

Traditional Slavic Hair Styles:
http://www.slovacivosvete.sk/data/att/525_obr.jpg

Maybe Yazidi man with plaited hair. Northern Iraq(I am not sure):
https://s12.postimg.org/oj0m25yp9/abc.jpg

same hair style in american indian:
http://imageenvision.com/photo/7058-mandan-native-american-man-with-braids-spotted-bull-by-jvpd

So you confirm what I wrote! Pops adopted "traditions" of other pops without true ethnical links with them!

johen
02-12-16, 14:24
So you confirm what I wrote! Pops adopted "traditions" of other pops without true ethnical links with them!
Do you really think that the above people adopted the tradition of just the other people as a fashion like now? If you think so, there is nothing I can do say.

uche
04-12-16, 18:17
Could it be that the Huns are the descendants of the root of the Kura Araxes culture(linked with Ubaid and Sumerian cultures), which is associated with the Areni-1 findings?
Could it be that the origin of Y-haplogroup L and T are in the oldest Kura Araxes culture people, and that the Huns are descendants of these oldest Kura Araxes culture people? These Kura Araxes culture people spoke a Proto Turk language, and tribes associated with them are described in the Sumerian tablets like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar", their basis was in the Urmia River region.


Please have a look at the paper of study "Areni-1 Cave, Armenia: A Chalcolithic–Early Bronze Age settlement and ritual site in the southern Caucasus", "Keith Wilkinson":


"The 14C date on the charcoal from the clay ball associated with Burial 1 suggests that the ritual during which the skulls were plastered into the vessels took place around 3970–3800 CAL B.C. (TABLE 1)."


"The results of excavations undertaken at Areni-1 Cave extend the date for the first appearance of Kura-Araxes-type artifact assemblages to 4100–3800 CAL B.C., several hundred years before the previously accepted earliest date (Kushnareva 1997: 49; Kiguradze and Sagona 2003: 38–94; Kohl 2007: 86–104). "
"

Sile
04-12-16, 18:32
Could it be that the Huns are the descendants of the root of the Kura Araxes culture(linked with Ubaid and Sumerian cultures), which is associated with the Areni-1 findings?
Could it be that the origin of Y-haplogroup L and T are in the oldest Kura Araxes culture people, and that the Huns are descendants of these oldest Kura Araxes culture people? These Kura Araxes culture people spoke a Proto Turk language, and tribes associated with them are described in the Sumerian tablets like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar", their basis was in the Urmia River region.



"

Maybe.................we have the following

Haplogroup LT


Time of origin:

+ 30 kya



Place of origin:

Sind Valley



Descendants:

LT (http://thegeneticatlas.com/mutations.htm)




and then this from the project teams

the most recent common ancestor of T1 and T2 was a single individual and he might have lived in Azerbaijan, or Bhutan, or somewhere in between, or somewhere a bit further south or west, but I doubt if he or his sons and grandsons travelled very far from the region where they were born. As far as we can tell, after 10000 years only 3 of their descendant lines had survived (two from T1 and one from T2).

T2 is the new T y-group found about a year ago from Bhutan IIRC

johen
04-12-16, 18:42
Could it be that the Huns are the descendants of the root of the Kura Araxes culture(linked with Ubaid and Sumerian cultures), which is associated with the Areni-1 findings?
Could it be that the origin of Y-haplogroup L and T are in the oldest Kura Araxes culture people, and that the Huns are descendants of these oldest Kura Araxes culture people? These Kura Araxes culture people spoke a Proto Turk language, and tribes associated with them are described in the Sumerian tablets like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar", their basis was in the Urmia River region.


Please have a look at the paper of study "Areni-1 Cave, Armenia: A Chalcolithic–Early Bronze Age settlement and ritual site in the southern Caucasus", "Keith Wilkinson":


"The 14C date on the charcoal from the clay ball associated with Burial 1 suggests that the ritual during which the skulls were plastered into the vessels took place around 3970–3800 CAL B.C. (TABLE 1)."


"The results of excavations undertaken at Areni-1 Cave extend the date for the first appearance of Kura-Araxes-type artifact assemblages to 4100–3800 CAL B.C., several hundred years before the previously accepted earliest date (Kushnareva 1997: 49; Kiguradze and Sagona 2003: 38–94; Kohl 2007: 86–104). "
"

1. sumerian had elongated head, but jericho people plastered skull. However, suemrian's custom of the elongated skull and their armenoid nose was closely related with armenian, as far as I know.
http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/field/image/jericho-plaster-skulls.jpg

2. btw, Did Kura Araxes culture people speak in proto-turk language, connecting to sumerian?

Goga
04-12-16, 19:06
Could it be that the Huns are the descendants of the root of the Kura Araxes culture(linked with Ubaid and Sumerian cultures), which is associated with the Areni-1 findings?
Could it be that the origin of Y-haplogroup L and T are in the oldest Kura Araxes culture people, and that the Huns are descendants of these oldest Kura Araxes culture people? These Kura Araxes culture people spoke a Proto Turk language, and tribes associated with them are described in the Sumerian tablets like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar", their basis was in the Urmia River region.


Please have a look at the paper of study "Areni-1 Cave, Armenia: A Chalcolithic–Early Bronze Age settlement and ritual site in the southern Caucasus", "Keith Wilkinson":


"The 14C date on the charcoal from the clay ball associated with Burial 1 suggests that the ritual during which the skulls were plastered into the vessels took place around 3970–3800 CAL B.C. (TABLE 1)."


"The results of excavations undertaken at Areni-1 Cave extend the date for the first appearance of Kura-Araxes-type artifact assemblages to 4100–3800 CAL B.C., several hundred years before the previously accepted earliest date (Kushnareva 1997: 49; Kiguradze and Sagona 2003: 38–94; Kohl 2007: 86–104). "
"
Don't think so. If that is the case than Chinese (Cantonese & Madarin) is also from the Caucasus.

Turkic is a 'Mongoloid' language and related to Chisese languages. Original Turks were 'Mongoloid' people / race from Altai/Baikal area/region.


So Turkic language, like Chinese, is originally from the EASTERN Eurasia..

Goga
04-12-16, 19:07
1. sumerian had elongated head, but jericho people plastered skull. However, suemrian's custom of the elongated skull and their armenoid nose was closely related with armenian, as far as I know.Sumerians were 'Iranid' (ARYAN) and NOT 'Armenoid'.

Goga
04-12-16, 19:18
http://eurasia.travel/images/Kazakhstan/Culture/Culture/tree_language.jpg

Goga
04-12-16, 19:25
Tukish is Altaic or 'Turkic' , while Hungarian is Uralic or 'Ugric'. If Turkic is from the Caucasus then the Mongolian langauge is also originally from the Caucasus.

Altaic and Uralic belong to the same group and are both 'Mongoloid'




http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/Ling450ch/images/image2.gif



http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Anthropogenesis-HakkinenUralicTree.jpg (https://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=imgres&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwivwsu2lNvQAhXkCpoKHfVrBo8QjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fanthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.or g%2F2012%2F10%2Fon-the-homeland-of-the-uralic-language-family%2F&psig=AFQjCNEl1eqZKTH0RsUKVEbHY6soNVszVw&ust=1480962215995685)



http://www.american-languages.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/decsy_1990_k%C3%BCnnap_1998_uralic_tree_01.png (https://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=imgres&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjfpJrPlNvQAhWlNJoKHcNDD6QQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.american-languages.org%2F608&psig=AFQjCNH-lEjTdUkZMWg6-yDeSJn0UDnr5w&ust=1480962297892148)

MOESAN
04-12-16, 19:49
Do you really think that the above people adopted the tradition of just the other people as a fashion like now? If you think so, there is nothing I can do say.

I did not say it occurred like today modes (changing every year or almost); but pre-Celtic/Celtic/latinized people of Gallo-Romania adopted Germanic (>Frankish and others) names without thay speak Germanic language, and in an overwhelming way. Would you some examples? It's not the first time a pop adopted foreign habits even when HATING the dominant pop! Human people are like that as a whole (tears).

MOESAN
04-12-16, 19:52
What do you think when people of diverse culture background are adopting nazi fashions spite their lack of common origin (I recall the Nazi's adopted "roman" fashions spite their supposed "pure >Germanic" inspiration! (without any political aim here, only "anthropology")

johen
04-12-16, 21:47
I did not say it occurred like today modes (changing every year or almost); but pre-Celtic/Celtic/latinized people of Gallo-Romania adopted Germanic (>Frankish and others) names without thay speak Germanic language, and in an overwhelming way. Would you some examples? It's not the first time a pop adopted foreign habits even when HATING the dominant pop! Human people are like that as a whole (tears).
That is true, but that traditon was changed when the dominant one became weak.
We are talking about braid hairstlye culture in East Europe, which had been kept until 19 century. It meant that the hairstyles last at least 1,000years or soemtimes 2,000 years.
So I said that original descendant has kept their tradition, which meant ethnic mix.
See the R1a1 and Q1a2 in altai, where they were always together from Neolithic to Hun.

Individuals from Lokomotiv and Shamanka II were found to possess haplogroups K, R1a1 and C3, and individuals from Ust’-Ida and Kurma XI were found to belong to haplogroups Q, K and unidentified SNP (L914). For those individuals belonging to haplogroup Q, further experimentation to examine sub-haplogroups of Q revealed that these individuals belong to sub-haplogroup Q1a3

Bronze mongolia:

In the same way, the patrilineal gene pool revealed the presence of different haplogroups (Q1a2a1-L54, R1a1a1b2-Z93 and C)

Hun


1) Egin Gol river valley cemetery in Mongolia
2) Duurling Nars cemetery in Mongolia
3) Barköl cemetery in Xinjiang, China
4) Birlik cemetery in Kazakhstan

Paternal lineages:

East Asian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 82%):

Haplo C2e - 3
Haplo C2 - 7
Haplo C - 1
Haplo Q1a2 - 3
Haplo Q1a3a - 3
Haplo Q1b - 1
Haplo N1c-Tat - 3
Haplo O3a2 - 1

West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 18%):

Haplo R1a - 3
Haplo R1b - 1
Haplo I2c - 1

And scythian were archaeologically altai natives also, having drinking cup of human skull like american indian. And East scythian had bird hair style, and west one shaving their head except one long braid, which were also american Indian customs. This R1a people attacked East Europe.
And the R1a Hun (1 or 4 braids), avar(2 braids), Bulgar(1 braid) and magyar(3 braids). Seems like they kept american indian traditions. And this kind of tradition was recently in East Europe.

Can you think it was adopted without ethnic mix? Of course there would be some people to adopt it w/o ethnic mix, who would not keep it for a long time.

Hun(looks like 4 braids)
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/aiwn07/xiongnu_1500-year-old.jpg

Avar
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3729/10404658865_f05445d91f_o.jpg

johen
04-12-16, 23:20
edit........

uche
04-12-16, 23:23
Don't think so. If that is the case than Chinese (Cantonese & Madarin) is also from the Caucasus.

Turkic is a 'Mongoloid' language and related to Chisese languages. Original Turks were 'Mongoloid' people / race from Altai/Baikal area/region.

So Turkic language, like Chinese, is originally from the EASTERN Eurasia..

Sumerians were 'Iranid' (ARYAN) and NOT 'Armenoid'.

The term Mongoloid is indeed equal to the Eastern Eurasian skull type, however the the medieval Mongol language is a product of the earlier Turk language. And the majority of the Turks/Huns(and the Turk language) belonged to the Western Eurasian skull type. Another note is the fact that the oldest kurgans are found in the Kura Araxes culture (Urmia region), this burial type is associated with the medieval Huns, which means that the ancestors of the Huns should have came from the Urmia region. As far as we know the Sumerian language is an agglutinative language which is equal to Altaic/Dravidian/Uralic type of languages. The Sumerian language is a non-Indo-European(non-Aryan) and non-Semitic language. The Sumerians are the descendants of the Ubaid culture people, and several archaeological studies have proven that the Ubaid culture people are the same as the Kura Araxes culture people. The Sumerian tribe names like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar" indicate that the language of Kura Araxes - Sumerian people is a Proto Turk language.

johen
04-12-16, 23:55
The term Mongoloid is indeed equal to the Eastern Eurasian skull type, however the the medieval Mongol language is a product of the earlier Turk language. And the majority of the Turks/Huns(and the Turk language) belonged to the Western Eurasian skull type. Another note is the fact that the oldest kurgans are found in the Kura Araxes culture (Urmia region), this burial type is associated with the medieval Huns, which means that the ancestors of the Huns should have came from the Urmia region. As far as we know the Sumerian language is an agglutinative language which is equal to Altaic/Dravidian/Uralic type of languages. The Sumerian language is a non-Indo-European(non-Aryan) and non-Semitic language. The Sumerians are the descendants of the Ubaid culture people, and several archaeological studies have proven that the Ubaid culture people are the same as the Kura Araxes culture people. The Sumerian tribe names like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar" indicate that the language of Kura Araxes - Sumerian people is a Proto Turk language.


As far as I know, the most important horse installments are bit (botai culture) and stirrup. I think the idea regarding two installments could be created in steppe area by riding a hose for thousand years. It would be difficult to get the ideas thru trial and error processes in mountain area. It was historically said that the Hun used the stirrup.
And I always ask why the oldest kurgan is over there, b/c the Kurgan like pit grave is closely related with pit-house, siberian culture. So I think ANE factors in middle East also has something to do with the following green pottery migration from lake baikal. And language also.
https://s32.postimg.org/icxxjzfqt/Capture.png

pit-house In Canada
http://firstpeoplesofcanada.com/images/firstnations/teachers_guide/plateau/pithouse.jpg

Goga
05-12-16, 00:54
The term Mongoloid is indeed equal to the Eastern Eurasian skull type, however the the medieval Mongol language is a product of the earlier Turk language. And the majority of the Turks/Huns(and the Turk language) belonged to the Western Eurasian skull type. Another note is the fact that the oldest kurgans are found in the Kura Araxes culture (Urmia region), this burial type is associated with the medieval Huns, which means that the ancestors of the Huns should have came from the Urmia region. As far as we know the Sumerian language is an agglutinative language which is equal to Altaic/Dravidian/Uralic type of languages. The Sumerian language is a non-Indo-European(non-Aryan) and non-Semitic language. The Sumerians are the descendants of the Ubaid culture people, and several archaeological studies have proven that the Ubaid culture people are the same as the Kura Araxes culture people. The Sumerian tribe names like "Turukku"(Turukkaeans) and "Subar" indicate that the language of Kura Araxes - Sumerian people is a Proto Turk language.You don't get me. Turkic IS an eastern Eurastiatic language. It has nothing to do with West Asia or Mesopotamia or Iran. Turkic is much closer to other east Eurasian languages. Turkic is part of that family.

Yeah, I do agree with you that Ubaid culture and advanced (Aryan) cultures in the Caucasus were simillar to each other. Why? Becasue all those advanced 'Aryan' cultures had their roots in the Iranian Plateau. Those people were WEST Asian people and were not from the eastern Eurasia.

Sumerians language is OLDER than PIE. When Sumerian came into the existence there was no such thing as PIE in the Steppes. Sumerian language was a WEST Asian language and was not from the eastern Eurasia
. While Turkic is originally from the eastern Eurasia, because ALL relatives of Turkic language live in the eastern Eurasia.

Turkic is a 'Mongoloid' language in grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation. It is a scientific FACT and nobody can change this fact! People should be not ashamed of their roots, but be proud of their roots and embrace it. When people find peace with themselves accept their own roots and respect their own ancestors they are much more successful in the lives. We are all human, we are all the same at the end of the day.

That's why I can't get along with people who don't have peace, have inferiotiy complex, have hidden agenda and are trying to twist their own history. They will FAIL big time, history can't be change. It is part of our DNA. You can fool human societies, you can fool yourself, but you can't fool human DNA (nature) or even GOD!

Goga
05-12-16, 01:11
And I always ask why the oldest kurgan is over there, b/c the Kurgan like pit grave is closely related with pit-house, siberian culture. So I think ANE factors in middle East also has something to do with the following green pottery migration from lake baikal.As far as I know the oldest 'Kurgans' have been found in West Asia.

As far as I know the oldest known 'sky burials' (burial = kurgan) is Göbekli Tepé.

Göbekli Tepé kurgan is at least 9000 years old! That is 7,000bp

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe



Also, HUGE Kurgans in Trialeti region, Georgia. Equal to the age of the oldest Egyptian pyramids (Egyptian pyramids = kurgans). Trialeti KURGANS were similar to much later late Indo-European kurgans in the Steppes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNnz1DgVsYE

johen
05-12-16, 06:07
extremely interesting. HUGE stone round Kurgan in Trialeti region, Georgia (7:28mins in video) is almost same as round pyramid in mexico:


In a suburb of Mexico City sits a circular pyramid, partially covered by a lava field from the Xitle volcano. The pyramid of Cuicuilco rises to no more than 18 meters in height, though measures 120 meters in diameter. Excavated for the first time by Mexican archaeologist Manuel Gamio in 1917, the original height is estimated to have been 27 meters.


http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/Images/countries/American%20pics/cuilcuilco.jpg
http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/pyramids.htm

another round pyramid in mexico
http://calixtlahuaca.blogspot.ca/2007/04/calixtlahuaca-pyramids-aztec-imposition.html

Brennos
05-12-16, 08:20
Three main Xiongnu Y hgs were C, Q and N. R was small minority.

Here are ancient DNA samples of Xiongnu/Hunnu haplogroups:

Places of origin of samples (four graveyards, not just one):

1) Egin Gol river valley cemetery in Mongolia
2) Duurling Nars cemetery in Mongolia
3) Barköl cemetery in Xinjiang, China
4) Birlik cemetery in Kazakhstan

Paternal lineages:

East Asian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 82%):

Haplo C2e - 3
Haplo C2 - 7
Haplo C - 1
Haplo Q1a2 - 3
Haplo Q1a3a - 3
Haplo Q1b - 1
Haplo N1c-Tat - 3
Haplo O3a2 - 1

West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 18%):

Haplo R1a - 3
Haplo R1b - 1
Haplo I2c - 1

Maternal lineages:

East Asian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 83%):

Haplo D4 - 19
Haplo D4o1 - 9
Haplo D5a - 1
Haplo D5 - 1
Haplo C - 4
Haplo C4a1 - 1
Haplo C5 - 1
Haplo F1b - 4
Haplo G2a - 1
Haplo G2 - 1
Haplo B4 - 1

Uncertain origin mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 3%):

Haplo M - 2

West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 14%):

Haplo U5a1a - 2
Haplo U2e1 - 1
Haplo U2 - 1
Haplo J1 - 2
Haplo H - 1

I never heard about an R1b male sample in Huns... Is it possible to know the source and the paper from where the info comes from?

uche
05-12-16, 19:49
You don't get me. Turkic IS an eastern Eurastiatic language. It has nothing to do with West Asia or Mesopotamia or Iran. Turkic is much closer to other east Eurasian languages. Turkic is part of that family.

Yeah, I do agree with you that Ubaid culture and advanced (Aryan) cultures in the Caucasus were simillar to each other. Why? Becasue all those advanced 'Aryan' cultures had their roots in the Iranian Plateau. Those people were WEST Asian people and were not from the eastern Eurasia.

Sumerians language is OLDER than PIE. When Sumerian came into the existence there was no such thing as PIE in the Steppes. Sumerian language was a WEST Asian language and was not from the eastern Eurasia
. While Turkic is originally from the eastern Eurasia, because ALL relatives of Turkic language live in the eastern Eurasia.

Turkic is a 'Mongoloid' language in grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation. It is a scientific FACT and nobody can change this fact! People should be not ashamed of their roots, but be proud of their roots and embrace it. When people find peace with themselves accept their own roots and respect their own ancestors they are much more successful in the lives. We are all human, we are all the same at the end of the day.

That's why I can't get along with people who don't have peace, have inferiotiy complex, have hidden agenda and are trying to twist their own history. They will FAIL big time, history can't be change. It is part of our DNA. You can fool human societies, you can fool yourself, but you can't fool human DNA (nature) or even GOD!

Sino-Tibetian(Eastern Eurasian) and Turk languages(Western Eurasian) have no resemblance with each other, totally different types of languages. The term "Mongol" is only appeared in the 12th century AD, and the modern Mongol language is not equal to the medieval Mongols, who were just a tribe of the Turks. The Eastern Eurasian element within the modern Mongols have adopted the Turk language when Turkish tribes moved eastward in Eurasia. Think about it, why are the major groups of the modern Turks located in Western Eurasian regions? They did not fall from the sky into these regions. The Turkish element within the Japanese language is also very minimal, related to the migration of a small group of Huns. So, the fact is that the Turks migrated from Western Eurasian regions(which is their homeland) to Eastern Eurasian regions. How can we explain the fact that the archaeological and anthropological cultures of the Huns, Sarmatians and Pazyryk culture people are exactly the same? How can we explain the major Altaic/Dravidian element within the Sumerian language? How can we explain the tribe name "Turukku" within the Sumerians? It all ties up to the fact that the Proto Turks originated within the regions between the Urmia Region(Southern Caucasia) and Mesopotamia(reaching from Eastern Anatolia until the Levant Region).

Goga
05-12-16, 21:58
Sino-Tibetian(Eastern Eurasian) and Turk languages(Western Eurasian) have no resemblance with each other, totally different types of languages. The term "Mongol" is only appeared in the 12th century AD, and the modern Mongol language is not equal to the medieval Mongols, who were just a tribe of the Turks. The Eastern Eurasian element within the modern Mongols have adopted the Turk language when Turkish tribes moved eastward in Eurasia. Think about it, why are the major groups of the modern Turks located in Western Eurasian regions? They did not fall from the sky into these regions. The Turkish element within the Japanese language is also very minimal, related to the migration of a small group of Huns. So, the fact is that the Turks migrated from Western Eurasian regions(which is their homeland) to Eastern Eurasian regions. How can we explain the fact that the archaeological and anthropological cultures of the Huns, Sarmatians and Pazyryk culture people are exactly the same? How can we explain the major Altaic/Dravidian element within the Sumerian language? How can we explain the tribe name "Turukku" within the Sumerians? It all ties up to the fact that the Proto Turks originated within the regions between the Urmia Region(Southern Caucasia) and Mesopotamia(reaching from Eastern Anatolia until the Levant Region).Hahaha, now Turks are native to Kurdistan, hahaha?

This ridiculous fantasy is not even worth another minute of my precious time. I'm not going to play your games and if you think I'm going to fall in your trap, then you are making a big mistake. I have seen this coming from the very beginning. I'm done with you. Bye bye.

Not me, nor my opinion, everybody has an opnion. Opnions are useless, even brain dead people have one, but the ACADEMIA doesn't agree with you. If you have something usefull and scientific to say just write an academic paper or a book and try to persuade the minds of the establsihed scientists. It is up to you to prove the academia wrong. I have nothing to do with it. And since I'm not a Turk, nor Mongoloid, I'm not interested in Turkic or Mongoloid history in general.


" Turkic languages, group of closely related languages that form a subfamily of the Altaic languages (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Altaic-languages). The Turkic languages show close similarities to each other in phonology (https://www.britannica.com/science/phonology), morphology (https://www.britannica.com/science/morphology-biology), and syntax (https://www.britannica.com/topic/syntax), though Chuvash (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Chuvash), Khalaj, and Sakha differ considerably from the rest. The earliest linguistic records are Old Turkic inscriptions, found near the Orhon River in Mongolia (https://www.britannica.com/place/Mongolia) and the Yenisey River valley in south-central Russia, which date from the 8th century "

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Turkic-languages


Just stop ridiculing the Turks. Have a nice day!

uche
06-12-16, 23:24
Hahaha, now Turks are native to Kurdistan, hahaha?

This ridiculous fantasy is not even worth another minute of my precious time. I'm not going to play your games and if you think I'm going to fall in your trap, then you are making a big mistake. I have seen this coming from the very beginning. I'm done with you. Bye bye.

Not me, nor my opinion, everybody has an opnion. Opnions are useless, even brain dead people have one, but the ACADEMIA doesn't agree with you. If you have something usefull and scientific to say just write an academic paper or a book and try to persuade the minds of the establsihed scientists. It is up to you to prove the academia wrong. I have nothing to do with it. And since I'm not a Turk, nor Mongoloid, I'm not interested in Turkic or Mongoloid history in general.

Just stop ridiculing the Turks. Have a nice day!

Thanks for the academical reply, i appreciate it very much.

Kisuan
07-12-16, 00:55
Three main Xiongnu Y hgs were C, Q and N. R was small minority.

Here are ancient DNA samples of Xiongnu/Hunnu haplogroups:

Places of origin of samples (four graveyards, not just one):

1) Egin Gol river valley cemetery in Mongolia
2) Duurling Nars cemetery in Mongolia
3) Barköl cemetery in Xinjiang, China
4) Birlik cemetery in Kazakhstan

Paternal lineages:

East Asian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 82%):

Haplo C2e - 3
Haplo C2 - 7
Haplo C - 1
Haplo Q1a2 - 3
Haplo Q1a3a - 3
Haplo Q1b - 1
Haplo N1c-Tat - 3
Haplo O3a2 - 1

West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 18%):

Haplo R1a - 3
Haplo R1b - 1
Haplo I2c - 1

Maternal lineages:

East Asian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 83%):

Haplo D4 - 19
Haplo D4o1 - 9
Haplo D5a - 1
Haplo D5 - 1
Haplo C - 4
Haplo C4a1 - 1
Haplo C5 - 1
Haplo F1b - 4
Haplo G2a - 1
Haplo G2 - 1
Haplo B4 - 1

Uncertain origin mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 3%):

Haplo M - 2

West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 14%):

Haplo U5a1a - 2
Haplo U2e1 - 1
Haplo U2 - 1
Haplo J1 - 2
Haplo H - 1

Sorry to ask Tomenable, but which grave had I2c? Definitely not a haplogroup I'd expect amongst the huns. Actually, it would be cool if you link to the article mentioning these haplogroups.

holderlin
07-12-16, 07:13
Sino-Tibetian(Eastern Eurasian) and Turk languages(Western Eurasian) have no resemblance with each other, totally different types of languages. The term "Mongol" is only appeared in the 12th century AD, and the modern Mongol language is not equal to the medieval Mongols, who were just a tribe of the Turks. The Eastern Eurasian element within the modern Mongols have adopted the Turk language when Turkish tribes moved eastward in Eurasia. Think about it, why are the major groups of the modern Turks located in Western Eurasian regions? They did not fall from the sky into these regions. The Turkish element within the Japanese language is also very minimal, related to the migration of a small group of Huns. So, the fact is that the Turks migrated from Western Eurasian regions(which is their homeland) to Eastern Eurasian regions. How can we explain the fact that the archaeological and anthropological cultures of the Huns, Sarmatians and Pazyryk culture people are exactly the same? How can we explain the major Altaic/Dravidian element within the Sumerian language? How can we explain the tribe name "Turukku" within the Sumerians? It all ties up to the fact that the Proto Turks originated within the regions between the Urmia Region(Southern Caucasia) and Mesopotamia(reaching from Eastern Anatolia until the Levant Region).


Hahaha, now Turks are native to Kurdistan, hahaha?

This ridiculous fantasy is not even worth another minute of my precious time. I'm not going to play your games and if you think I'm going to fall in your trap, then you are making a big mistake. I have seen this coming from the very beginning. I'm done with you. Bye bye.

Not me, nor my opinion, everybody has an opnion. Opnions are useless, even brain dead people have one, but the ACADEMIA doesn't agree with you. If you have something usefull and scientific to say just write an academic paper or a book and try to persuade the minds of the establsihed scientists. It is up to you to prove the academia wrong. I have nothing to do with it. And since I'm not a Turk, nor Mongoloid, I'm not interested in Turkic or Mongoloid history in general.


" Turkic languages, group of closely related languages that form a subfamily of the Altaic languages (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Altaic-languages). The Turkic languages show close similarities to each other in phonology (https://www.britannica.com/science/phonology), morphology (https://www.britannica.com/science/morphology-biology), and syntax (https://www.britannica.com/topic/syntax), though Chuvash (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Chuvash), Khalaj, and Sakha differ considerably from the rest. The earliest linguistic records are Old Turkic inscriptions, found near the Orhon River in Mongolia (https://www.britannica.com/place/Mongolia) and the Yenisey River valley in south-central Russia, which date from the 8th century "

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Turkic-languages


Just stop ridiculing the Turks. Have a nice day!



:laughing::lmao:


Proto-Euphrato-Altaic is gaining supporters every day. They would be the ancestors of BMAC.

torokt
09-12-16, 09:53
http://eurasia.travel/images/Kazakhstan/Culture/Culture/tree_language.jpg

Where did you take this languauge tree? What surprises me is that "magyar" = Hungarian appears as a branch of turkic

Boreas
09-12-16, 10:53
Where did you take this languauge tree? What surprises me is that "magyar" = Hungarian appears as a branch of turkic

I guess, lingustic and historic facts were mixed in that tree. It should be Cuman language.

Is there any clear effect of Cuman language in the modern Hungarian language?

gyms
09-12-16, 13:11
West Old Turkic: Turkic Loanwords in Hungarian

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13577601-west-old-turkic

The Hungarian language is the most important source for reconstructing the West Old Turkic language spoken west of the Ural in the 5th-12th centuries. The study by Árpád Berta and András Róna-Tas deals with the etymology of about 500 Hungarian words which are or may be of Old Turkic, in some cases of Middle Turkic origin. The Hungarian-Turkic contacts began in the 5th

http://www.swedishcollegium.se/pdf/newpubl_ronatas_berta.pdf

IronSide
21-09-17, 22:43
Three main Xiongnu Y hgs were C, Q and N. R was small minority.

Here are ancient DNA samples of Xiongnu/Hunnu haplogroups:

Places of origin of samples (four graveyards, not just one):

1) Egin Gol river valley cemetery in Mongolia
2) Duurling Nars cemetery in Mongolia
3) Barköl cemetery in Xinjiang, China
4) Birlik cemetery in Kazakhstan

Paternal lineages:

East Asian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 82%):

Haplo C2e - 3
Haplo C2 - 7
Haplo C - 1
Haplo Q1a2 - 3
Haplo Q1a3a - 3
Haplo Q1b - 1
Haplo N1c-Tat - 3
Haplo O3a2 - 1

West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 18%):

Haplo R1a - 3
Haplo R1b - 1
Haplo I2c - 1

Maternal lineages:

East Asian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 83%):

Haplo D4 - 19
Haplo D4o1 - 9
Haplo D5a - 1
Haplo D5 - 1
Haplo C - 4
Haplo C4a1 - 1
Haplo C5 - 1
Haplo F1b - 4
Haplo G2a - 1
Haplo G2 - 1
Haplo B4 - 1

Uncertain origin mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 3%):

Haplo M - 2

West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 14%):

Haplo U5a1a - 2
Haplo U2e1 - 1
Haplo U2 - 1
Haplo J1 - 2
Haplo H - 1

Xiungnu I2c ??? I'm so turned on by this.

Why haven't I heard about this before? Tomenable please, can you provide the source for this finding?

IronSide
22-09-17, 06:52
Xiungnu I2c ??? I'm so turned on by this.

Why haven't I heard about this before? Tomenable please, can you provide the source for this finding?
This obscure Turkish forum reported it http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=229&t=12458#p16151


Genetic Analysis of a Scytho-Siberian Skeleton and Its Implications for Ancient Central Asian Migrations

Tribe: Sakha(Scythian)
Country: Altai Republic, Kızıl
Time: 400-100 BCE
MT-DNA: 1x N1a
Y-DNA-Prediction: I2c(Mathieson et al 2015), G2a(Haak et al 2015), R1b(Allentoft et al 2015)

And this is the paper in question Genetic Analysis of a Scytho-Siberian Skeleton and Its
Implications for Ancient Central Asian Migrations (http://file:///C:/Users/HP/Downloads/RICAUT_2004_HumanBiology_genetic%20analysis%20Scyt ho-Siberian.pdf)

I didn't find anything suggesting it could be I2c.

holderlin
28-09-17, 18:33
Can you post a primary source?

The Avestas bro

holderlin
28-09-17, 18:52
Don't know why I'm back on my Iron Age/Middle age steppe hordes BS.

But as an appeal to @Alan, I would agree without question that the original templates upon which Iron Age and Middle Age steppe tribes were built were undoubtedly Bronze age Iranians and maybe even earlier Tocharians in some respects, the latter of which is mostly speculative. But too much mixing had happened since 2000 BC to call Huns and Mongols "Iranians".

XipeTotek
29-03-18, 22:07
Huns must be are mixed of r1a(east iranian) q(native americans,turkic) and c (mongols) and must be magyar peoples ( O and N)
Turkic gokturk state have be relationship east iranians (like a sogdian) so we are euroasian / central asian.
But first turks come from native american people and culture

Messier 67
29-03-18, 22:13
Huns must be are mixed of r1a(east iranian) q(native americans,turkic) and c (mongols) abd must be magyar peoples ( O and N)

Magyars did not come up heavily N and O. Came up R1a, R1b, E1b1b, and J1.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35435-Dna-of-King-Bela-III-of-Hungary

XipeTotek
29-03-18, 22:17
Magyars did not come up heavily N and O. Came up R1a, R1b, E1b1b, and J1.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35435-Dna-of-King-Bela-III-of-Hungary
how this possible. ural peoples come from o hablogroup and main hablogroup N. like a finnish peoples. may be they mixed other peoples later

yes i can see on hungary dont have n hablogroup. its interesting. so it is a language change?

they must be assimiliated scythians from ural peoples. central asia have so many culture, uralic, altaic, and indo european. they must be asimiliated indo european from uralic peoples. and attila is half mongoloid with slanted eyes i know it.

if you say magyars dont come from N hablogroup, (only 0.5) they must be like a turkey turks now. we come from altaic hablogroups and speaking turkish but we have so little central asian hablogroups. this is a assimilation by the mongoloid/uralic/altaic for language

and if you can see altaians hablogrop on the internet. they have so many r1a today.(mainly group is Q hablogroup) if altaians go to invade to europe you can see later they are must be totally r1a today. i think like that.

turkic central peoples like this too. our mainly hablogroup Q but all central asians have so many r1a and r1b and o hablogroups. but q hablogroup so low. but their languages and genetics come from same ancestors with native americans.

i think asian males not luckly than indo europeans. if this genetics explain for males, indo - european males more lucky than asians i think like that.

and sexual selection working like this. african > indo european > asians i see like that for male dominant hablogroups for sexual selection chance

this must be related and explain for me with why hungarian peoples have so many r1a or central asians.

XipeTotek
29-03-18, 22:46
Where did you take this languauge tree? What surprises me is that "magyar" = Hungarian appears as a branch of turkic

i think hungarians/ural languages close more japanese/korean languages than us.

and turkic language family close to sumerian and native americans.

because native americans come from same hablogroup Q with Turks

uralic peoples come from same hablogroup O and N

O peoples are chinese korean japanese, N people are uralic peoples.

i dont know why native american languages dont added to turkic or altaic language, because they are come from same hablogroup and language. (trust me if you can search about native american languages you can see how similarity have with turkic languages.)

i think in the soon of the time, science explain to us, sumerians, native americans and turkic peoples join the one language family and hablogroup.

Zulca
04-09-18, 21:06
again, R1a, Q1a2 and C series in Alati since neolithic



Hollard et al., Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age.



i in huns? who found it?

Zulca
04-09-18, 21:16
r1a hunnic marker from duurling nars found by kim is hungarian, which was the subclade?

Tutkun Arnaut
05-09-18, 00:17
i think hungarians/ural languages close more japanese/korean languages than us.

and turkic language family close to sumerian and native americans.

because native americans come from same hablogroup Q with Turks

uralic peoples come from same hablogroup O and N

O peoples are chinese korean japanese, N people are uralic peoples.

i dont know why native american languages dont added to turkic or altaic language, because they are come from same hablogroup and language. (trust me if you can search about native american languages you can see how similarity have with turkic languages.)

i think in the soon of the time, science explain to us, sumerians, native americans and turkic peoples join the one language family and hablogroup.
who are the real Turks"? i mean today's turks are Anatolians speaking Turkic

Alpakut
17-10-19, 19:04
If the Huns are mentioned in the Avesta as an East Iranic tribe thousand years before anything Turkic was even known. Those can't have been Turkic.

1. If Huns were not Turks, Turks would not exist. So, your first argument is already overthrown by this logical fact.
2. "R. Stiehlel writes, it is quite obvious that language of old Avesta is closely tied to ancient Altaic languages. Since [indo-european] newcomers to Iran joined older settled inhabitants often
associated with Scythians,Turks and Finno-Ugrians, and borrowed much..."

- author William Hearth referencing Ruth Stiehlel's book "Geschichte Mittelasiens im Altertum"
(1970)

3. You see, that Scythians can't have been Iranic. They were 100% Turkic.

Alpakut
17-10-19, 19:09
Also take in mind two Hun period samples turned out J2a some years ago.
Modern J2a is Turkic. No wonder you also find J2a in early Karluk and Oghuz samples.

https://i.redd.it/4t9btlzqgq331.png

torzio
17-10-19, 20:18
who are the real Turks"? i mean today's turks are Anatolians speaking Turkic

What percentage are true turks and not anatolians in turkey today......since turks only arrived in turkey just over one thousand years ago....
.
Basically how many generations is needed to change an ethnicity

johen
17-10-19, 21:15
What percentage are true turks and not anatolians in turkey today......since turks only arrived in turkey just over one thousand years ago....
.
Basically how many generations is needed to change an ethnicity

smallest, but they have still siberian genes. Thing is how to define the ethnicity? culture or gene?
If wolf raised human generation by generation, I think human is nothing but wolf. R1b scythian in pontic steppe can be clustered with modern east european. However, they historically used a human skull as drinking cup as east scythian and american Indian archaeologically. Does the scythian genes matters?

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/11/16/11/2E7E74F400000578-3320218-The_researchers_found_that_western_Europe_appears_ to_be_a_mixtur-m-3_1447674621591.jpg

see pazryk scythian. He is definitely Caucasoid with Mohak hair style. which one is important, caucasoid skull or american indian culture?
I think the skull type might not control his mind at all.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/PazyrikHorseman.JPG/220px-PazyrikHorseman.JPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PazyrikHorseman.JPG)

Alpakut
17-10-19, 22:19
Too many freaks talk unscientific bs here.

turks.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/Qqe9Xgs.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/Qqe9Xgs.jpg

hun saka.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/J54NknH.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/J54NknH.jpg

saka=huns=medieval turkic people.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325047876_137_ancient_human_genomes_from_across_th e_Eurasian_steppes

Note: Seems I have triggered the Indo-Iranian brain cancer topic ;D

Saetrus
18-10-19, 23:02
Too many freaks talk unscientific bs here.

turks.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/Qqe9Xgs.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/Qqe9Xgs.jpg

hun saka.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/J54NknH.jpg)
https://i.imgur.com/J54NknH.jpg

saka=huns=medieval turkic people.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325047876_137_ancient_human_genomes_from_across_th e_Eurasian_steppes

Note: Seems I have triggered the Indo-Iranian brain cancer topic ;D

I'm not sure why there are people still struggling to understand that even after the big South Asia paper has shown R1a-Z93 had nothing to do with Indo-Iranians.

https://i.imgur.com/pBI2jB1.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/sHKizyt.jpg

ratchet_fan
17-07-20, 02:22
We should def. call out Turkic trolling? Like who actually believes the guy above me is Italian when he is espousing pan Turkic nonsense?