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Yetos
26-11-16, 17:10
A history of the past remind the late Sioux strungle,
against the oil pipeline.

the story of Sioux is known as their devastations from Dacota to Minessota etc,
the mendota treaty 5/08/1851
and their brave Tatanka Yotanka and Tashunka Uitco leaders


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KskC6Qd1DOk

Injustice anywhere threats Justice everywhere.


AND JUSTICE FOR ALL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ4GbcuBvUQ

I think this will be Trump's first truble.

Twilight
26-11-16, 22:24
What rule are they breaking? The first Amendment states that people have a right to free speech therefore a right to protest. Anyways, we Americans broke a sacred treaty and that's a problem that needs to be solved but once violence breaks out that's when the police comes in ^_^

Coriolan
27-11-16, 08:03
I don't understand why these people are trying to protect their hunter-gatherer lifestyle and traditions in the 21st century. Why won't they adapt like everybody else? Why still recreate bison migrations to remember how their ancestors hunted? I mean all European have ancestors that were also bison and mammoth hunters long ago. We criticise immigrants from third world countries if they don't upgrade their lifestyle to that of modern society, and these Sioux who have been Americans for over 100 years cling to Paleolithic lifestyle as if their lives depended on it. I just don't understand why. The USA is one of the easiest places for outsiders and newcomers from anywhere in the world to integrate as it's a country built on immigration and diversity. Why are the Sioux refusing to take that opportunity to adapt to improve their lifestyle? Why stick to anachronistic values that will inevitably lead to conflicts? After so many generations that is well past stubbornness.

Yetos
27-11-16, 10:09
@ Coriolan

I THink it is like religion, and Identity together
For the same reason Christians use candles,
Muslims carry the carpet to pray upon etc etc

The problem is that they have a land a last open valley culture, and they want to protect it ,
like Christians have Holy lands, Holy mountain, Vatican anabaptish Amish etc
Like Muslims have Mekka and Medina
like Jews have Jerusalem,

I think they deserve the right to hold a sacred valley, as a mark and place for their religious and cultural continue,

LeBrok
27-11-16, 17:26
I don't understand why these people are trying to protect their hunter-gatherer lifestyle and traditions in the 21st century. Why won't they adapt like everybody else? Why still recreate bison migrations to remember how their ancestors hunted? I mean all European have ancestors that were also bison and mammoth hunters long ago. We criticise immigrants from third world countries if they don't upgrade their lifestyle to that of modern society, and these Sioux who have been Americans for over 100 years cling to Paleolithic lifestyle as if their lives depended on it. I just don't understand why. The USA is one of the easiest places for outsiders and newcomers from anywhere in the world to integrate as it's a country built on immigration and diversity. Why are the Sioux refusing to take that opportunity to adapt to improve their lifestyle? Why stick to anachronistic values that will inevitably lead to conflicts? After so many generations that is well past stubbornness.
Unfortunately they can't adapt. They are trying to but it is not working for them. Perhaps if one is born hunter gatherer one will die hunter gatherer. Notice that same problem happens to Australian aborigines, Brazilian jungle tribes, some African tribes or Denmark Eskimos, all pure hunter gatherers.

Twilight
27-11-16, 19:50
Unfortunately they can't adapt. They are trying to but it is not working for them. Perhaps if one is born hunter gatherer one will die hunter gatherer. Notice that same problem happens to Australian aborigines, Brazilian jungle tribes, some African tribes or Denmark Eskimos, all pure hunter gatherers.


I wouldn't quite say "unable to adapt" My step-Dad's family is heavily involved in Shoalwater Bay/Chinook politics and I've been raised for most of my childhood in Seattle; before that Port Angeles where my parents grew up. Although I can say this, ever since the dawn of time our ancestors were always fascinated in knowing where they came from to get grounded in our roots; we see this in Genesis and a ton of creation stories from around the world. Perhaps we've inherited that fascination from preserving culture to legends/Geneology to even via genetic ancestry.

Yetos
27-11-16, 21:44
Unfortunately they can't adapt. They are trying to but it is not working for them. Perhaps if one is born hunter gatherer one will die hunter gatherer. Notice that same problem happens to Australian aborigines, Brazilian jungle tribes, some African tribes or Denmark Eskimos, all pure hunter gatherers.


hm,

if your thoughts are correct, then same happens with radical christians, Farmers, etc etc

https://aos.iacpublishinglabs.com/question/aq/700px-394px/amish-social-security-numbers_828427a4fafa7a86.jpg?domain=cx.aos.ask.com


they stayed at what era? late farming with no industrial farming machines?


Just look,
an istrustrial instrument for farming is not devil's instrument, if it is pulled by horses,
but a tractor is,

http://lpa-cdn.actionvideoinc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/farmer-two-mule-team.jpg



So I think it is more an identity, some of us still keep the who am I, the ID of soul and exist.
and do not turn to id numbers.
Same I think it is with Sioux, Australian original vacants, etc etc.

LeBrok
27-11-16, 23:27
hm,

if your thoughts are correct, then same happens with radical christians, Farmers, etc etc




they stayed at what era? late farming with no industrial farming machines?


Just look,
an istrustrial instrument for farming is not devil's instrument, if it is pulled by horses,
but a tractor is,





So I think it is more an identity, some of us still keep the who am I, the ID of soul and exist.
and do not turn to id numbers.
Same I think it is with Sioux, Australian original vacants, etc etc.I think some farmers are stuck in old ways due to ideological/religious dogma. HGs however might be stuck due to lack of genetic adaptation/predisposition to "like or fit" our world. It might be a bigger problem for HGs, because one can change ideology but one can't change genes.
Look how happy they go to work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXtsZV1JPdQ

Yetos
28-11-16, 00:42
I think some farmers are stuck in old ways due to ideological/religious dogma. HGs however might be stuck due to lack of genetic adaptation/predisposition to "like or fit" our world. It might be a bigger problem for HGs, because one can change ideology but one can't change genes.
Look how happy they go to work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXtsZV1JPdQ


well I do not know if it is in the DNA to be a hunter gatherer, or farmer, or a 'stuck in dogma' person.

But I will tell you something, and I will ask you something,
when I was a kid, with other kids used to play at a small property with fence but no buildings inside football, and other games,
it was our paradise, Today the new owner build a house, and has every right,
for me it is the lost of my youth times, but I am worried for modern kids of my neighbourhood, that they will never met the joy I and other kids had there.
and yes there is a kind of joy to play digitalgames as a kid, but is it the same joy I had?

now you tell us you are from Poland,
and I know Communism had a mania to destroy middle class and culture in the name of equality,
and if you lived at a block apartment it is ok,
BUT if you lived in a house at a vilage or outside blocks, a family house with traditions, build by one of your ancestors, brick by brick or stone by stone,
tell me, did you miss it? don't you feel a litlle bit empty, or less your shelf away from it?
don't you feel weak of data outhere in Canada? Solitude of a person outside his fellowship and enviroment?

I think as we carry our father's name, as we have DNA inheritage from our parents 50%, same we have enviromental and living memories and data in our Identification as personality,
and some still want that memories to stay alive, so to have emotional life, and not to be 2 numbers, 1 the id card number, 2. the number of deposits at the bank.

I do not think it is a matter of DNA, rather a enviroment effect and personal choice for what is life, and what should be,
anyway I recogn their right to be a nation, and have a sacred piece of land for their praying,


as for Amish, I do not know if it is a dogma, or love to live with horses and cattle, as their ancestors, milleniums now, as the early IE adore the horse and was a mark of their culture.
who knows, maybe 5 000 years IE genes are strong in them.

LeBrok
28-11-16, 01:56
well I do not know if it is in the DNA to be a hunter gatherer, or farmer, or a 'stuck in dogma' person.

But I will tell you something, and I will ask you something,
when I was a kid, with other kids used to play at a small property with fence but no buildings inside football, and other games,
it was our paradise, Today the new owner build a house, and has every right,
for me it is the lost of my youth times, but I am worried for modern kids of my neighbourhood, that they will never met the joy I and other kids had there.
and yes there is a kind of joy to play digitalgames as a kid, but is it the same joy I had?

now you tell us you are from Poland,
and I know Communism had a mania to destroy middle class and culture in the name of equality,
and if you lived at a block apartment it is ok,
BUT if you lived in a house at a vilage or outside blocks, a family house with traditions, build by one of your ancestors, brick by brick or stone by stone,
tell me, did you miss it? don't you feel a litlle bit empty, or less your shelf away from it?
don't you feel weak of data outhere in Canada? Solitude of a person outside his fellowship and enviroment?

I think as we carry our father's name, as we have DNA inheritage from our parents 50%, same we have enviromental and living memories and data in our Identification as personality,
and some still want that memories to stay alive, so to have emotional life, and not to be 2 numbers, 1 the id card number, 2. the number of deposits at the bank.
If I had a nice house with a swimming pool I would definitely miss it :), though I don't bond strongly to material objects.




I do not think it is a matter of DNA, rather a enviroment effect and personal choice for what is life, and what should be,
anyway I recogn their right to be a nation, and have a sacred piece of land for their praying,


as for Amish, I do not know if it is a dogma, or love to live with horses and cattle, as their ancestors, milleniums now, as the early IE adore the horse and was a mark of their culture.
who knows, maybe 5 000 years IE genes are strong in them. Come on, you are not being consistent. You suppose the love of horses could be genetic in farmers but not love of hunter ways in hunter gatherers. Hunter Gatherers lived their way for 2 million years. Long enough to get really in tune with their environment on genetic level.

Yetos
28-11-16, 14:11
Come on, you are not being consistent. You suppose the love of horses could be genetic in farmers but not love of hunter ways in hunter gatherers. Hunter Gatherers lived their way for 2 million years. Long enough to get really in tune with their environment on genetic level.



NO Forgive me. it is a kind of irony, and humor, joke,

cause if it is in DNA for hunter gatherers, then it should be also in horse breeding in some other groups,
but because I do not believe it is the DNA that counts so much but rather the enviromental and culture data I tried to make a joke.

Twilight
29-11-16, 04:05
If I had a nice house with a swimming pool I would definitely miss it :), though I don't bond strongly to material objects.



Come on, you are not being consistent. You suppose the love of horses could be genetic in farmers but not love of hunter ways in hunter gatherers. Hunter Gatherers lived their way for 2 million years. Long enough to get really in tune with their environment on genetic level.

True you make a good point. Ordinary objects can be easily though of as a luxurious past; like a Haunted Mansion like feel for example memorable and happy times but would not want to live there every day anymore. However I'd like to think about another dimension of time. What if Jesus, Mohameed and/or Abraham actually preached their message in a swimming pool? If this happened swimming pools would be as sacred as Holy Water and the Suiox's wilderness. ;) What would've happened if Simon Peter never built a church from stone, where would we worship today? What if Muhammad was never born in Mecca?

If we are ever able to understand the beliefs or the sacred material possessions that goes with the belief or school; in this case the Sioux's way of life, we need to understand to Sioux from the beginning g of their history. What happened in Sioux history that moulded the philosophy they have now? What's so sacred about the land that they'd protest so vigorously to protect it? ;)



well I do not know if it is in the DNA to be a hunter gatherer, or farmer, or a 'stuck in dogma' person.

But I will tell you something, and I will ask you something,
when I was a kid, with other kids used to play at a small property with fence but no buildings inside football, and other games,
it was our paradise, Today the new owner build a house, and has every right,
for me it is the lost of my youth times, but I am worried for modern kids of my neighbourhood, that they will never met the joy I and other kids had there.
and yes there is a kind of joy to play digitalgames as a kid, but is it the same joy I had?

now you tell us you are from Poland,
and I know Communism had a mania to destroy middle class and culture in the name of equality,
and if you lived at a block apartment it is ok,
BUT if you lived in a house at a vilage or outside blocks, a family house with traditions, build by one of your ancestors, brick by brick or stone by stone,
tell me, did you miss it? don't you feel a litlle bit empty, or less your shelf away from it?
don't you feel weak of data outhere in Canada? Solitude of a person outside his fellowship and enviroment?

I think as we carry our father's name, as we have DNA inheritage from our parents 50%, same we have enviromental and living memories and data in our Identification as personality,
and some still want that memories to stay alive, so to have emotional life, and not to be 2 numbers, 1 the id card number, 2. the number of deposits at the bank.

I do not think it is a matter of DNA, rather a enviroment effect and personal choice for what is life, and what should be,
anyway I recogn their right to be a nation, and have a sacred piece of land for their praying,


as for Amish, I do not know if it is a dogma, or love to live with horses and cattle, as their ancestors, milleniums now, as the early IE adore the horse and was a mark of their culture.
who knows, maybe 5 000 years IE genes are strong in them.
Nice one, lol :D Thanks for making my day :3

Angela
29-11-16, 17:43
Well, Yetos, I'm still attached to my childhood home, and it wasn't a mansion, although I think it was aesthetically pleasing, and the setting was beautiful. .

This is it. We lived in one of the apartments there. The recent widening of the road has now made it very dangerous, although the high speed traffic goes on the elevated autostrada. This is the actual Via Francigena or pilgrim route from France (and England) to Rome, famously used by more than one Archbishop of Canterbury. There are steps to the right where you can climb to my grandparent's cultivated land (They also owned a few small businesses and other properties there). I spent hours there underneath the trees as a child, reading and staring out over the river. There used to be a Roman bridge there, destroyed during the war, but a few pieces were still there when I was a child.

8254


I'm even more attached to one of my mother's ancestral properties. I day dream sometimes that if I win the lotto I'm going to buy it back, or something much like it, and grow almonds and hazelnuts, apricots and cherries, and grapes for my own wine, pick my own olives for my own olive oil, and maybe even try my hand with some chickens and goats and sheep and a cow or two. In my real dreams I'm often back sitting in my great-uncle's big kitchen, staring into the flames of the raised hearth, or in summer sitting outside on the terrace under the grape arbor and looking out over the valley, listening to everyone shout and curse and laugh over a game of scoppa. It would be playing at the life, however, a life that in actuality was brutally difficult. If it hadn't been, all these people wouldn't have immigrated.


The difference is that although I loved my childhood there and my summers later on, I knew very well what I had to do to fit into the modern world, to succeed in it, and I did it.

The problem is that people in some cultures, whatever the reason, can't.

Yetos
29-11-16, 21:23
Angela success is a personal subject,

for some is earn money,
for others to raise kids,
for others to rule,
for others to find cancer or sida cure
for others to sleep with 1 000 virgins
and for others to live with nothing like monks,

so for these Sioux succes is to keep their last valey as their fathers did, and some of them continue the way of living their fathers had.


in your heart you are still Italian, not American, your grand children might be Americanos,
same is with tribes and cultures in USA and other lands that shelf recogn their shelves from another era or area.

so is it a failure that some modern USA citizens are not from Europe, and want to have a piece of land as it would be before Colombus?
or we consider them success only they if have millions $ deposits or they find peniciline and nuclear power.

PS
you forgot the pomegranate tree, as we say it in Greece Rose tree (ροδιά) where always the mother sream 'STAY AWAY, it paints permanently the clothes'
and the dog we 'torture' as kids by dressing him or ride him as horse ;)

PS2
it is Christmas time, time for the 'little pagans' to get out and steal candies from the kitchen or the cellar.
Oh I forgot, I have to play PS4 for the next 4 hours, so let the mischief wait.
Yeah I know Santa or Nicolas or Basileios or Poseidon drinks coca-cola today.
as in 600 AD.


http://gardenforum.gr/album/photos/antilogos/Rodia/Rodia_anthi.jpg


yeah I know we accept roads to cut our villages, our properties if we are paid the price,
but do we accept lets say a road to cut through the cathedral of your old village?
ok ok, I have a better idea, lets pass a huge oil pipeline and high voltage wires through the Vatican,
or better through Mekka,
No, lets knock down part of Acropolis and put some radio and mobile antennas at the top of the hill, fantastic idea!!!


Imagine this with with mobile and radio- TV antennas,

http://athensgreecenow.com/_imagery/acropolis-view-of-pireas.jpg

sacred of a culture, a nation, and more.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UJJ_4IYvKAo/TPX8Bfn_cvI/AAAAAAAAA44/p1omnAJJ_DE/s400/Ymittos15.png

sacred of who?

Angela
30-11-16, 05:21
Yetos, we'll have to agree to disagree. Imo, you're romanticizing the past. The farmers, especially the tenant farmers, but even people like my great uncle, who supervised many farms, worked like mules, up before first light and into the fields, and then fixing tools,caning chairs, or sewing, knitting until they fell asleep as they worked. Do you think anyone in my ancestral villages would willingly go back to washing clothes in ash and lye in a conca and then rinsing them in the river or a stone trough, or using lamps, or plowing and picking and harvesting all the hours God gave, and always at the mercy of the weather, the landlords, the government? I can assure you they wouldn't.

They like their electric lights and heat, their tv and telefoninos and cars. Until the first decades of the 20th century there was no road up to my father's villages. You got in and out by mule tracks. Do you think they want to live like that again? Is the elevated autostrada an eye sore? Yes, it is, but because of it our young people can live home but still go to university in Pisa and Parma. Some of our men can work for Fiat in Torino four days a week and be home for Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
https://martincooneyblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/017.jpg


If you're asking me if I sometimes wish that my father had decided to stay in Italy, given the changes and the increase in prosperity since those days, yes, I sometimes do. On the other hand, my father wanted for me, and I wanted for my children the ability to take advantage of the best education possible given their abilities, and the opportunity to go as far in their professions as their talents and capacity for hard work would take them.

In terms of the Sioux and other Native Americans, most of them live in squalor, and even when they've opened casinos most of the profit goes to the tribal councils, and the rest are still in poverty. Their diets are terrible, so are the schools, even worse is the condition of their health, with astounding rates of alcoholism and drug addiction. Heck, in the reservations in the southwest they don't even have enough drinking water. They can't live the old hunter-gatherer lifestyle. That's gone. Is adapting to modern culture worse than living as poverty stricken clients of the Federal government on the reservations?

Plus, I know what those pipelines look like. The footprint is very small, less unsightly than a lot of what we have to look at every day.

Yetos
30-11-16, 23:09
Angella

Ηρακλειτος said 1000 people, 1000 opinions.
that is Democracy

Anyway, as in my country we do not want nuclear powerplants, our choice, some say it is clean, but we afraid of accident.
as we did not want high frecuency antennas close to dwellings, our choice, etc
SAME IS THE CHOICE OF SIOUX NOT TO WANT OIL PIPELINES IN THEIR LAND.

ps
nice bridge and lots of green in photo,
all lands are not sacred.
but consider such a leophoros road and the air-bridge of the photo above Pisa's tower!!!
what would say and think?
''come on, could they moved it few km left or right?''
''was the need so big to do so?''

PS
No I do not dream of past, But I like the less stress, the joy with little simple things, and away from advertisements to consum, (that is why I prefer internet than TV)
but past is needed to identify who we are and what we have manage to achieve.
and the sacred must be respected by all, especially goverments,
besides 99.9% of sacred areas monuments belong to past.

and i do not think Sioux protest about a pipeline in Texas, or in Oclahoma,
but they protest about their lands.
as for casinos
come on, even the new president had at Atlantic city,

Yetos
05-12-16, 23:10
well as iread, it is ended and the pipeline will pass underground the lake,

Sioux should feel again winners, and calm since their lands will be kept clean,

But they must slowly enter 2016,
although keep their sacred lands as they like,
it is different thing