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Angela
27-11-16, 21:36
There's been a request for a thread for Diaspora Italians to share their ancestry, cultural experience etc.

I'll start by transferring a post from another thread.

"I was born in a town north of La Spezia (where most of the male members of my family have worked) in northwestern Toscana. Traditionally the area is called the Lunigiana. Control by Toscana dates to the Medici. Before that it was variously under the control of the Genovese, and for a while, of Lombardia and of Modena. My mother's mother's family has lived in the same area of the northern Lunigiana for hundreds of years. My mother's father's family has some ancestry from La Spezia itself. The surname seems to have come down from Lombardia, then to Piemonte, and then to Liguria.

My father's entire family has lived in the northern Apennines south of Parma and Reggio Emilia in Emilia from perhaps the 1400s. Fwiw, on most genetics tests I score approximately midway between the people of Bergamo and the people of Firenze. When more Italian samples are included, as in MDLP, my closest population is variously either Italy-Piedmont or the sample from Valle Borbera, labelled there as Italy_North. The fits are still not great, however, which is a testament to the extreme substructure in northern Italy, far more than exists in the south.

Lunigiana:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunigiana
http://www.rivieratoscana.it/im/map/en/map-rt.gif

http://www.turismoitalianews.it/images/stories/toscana/LunigianaMappa.jpg
http://www.turismoitalianews.it/images/stories/toscana/LunigianaMappa.jpg

I was born at the foot of this village, next to what is still labelled the Via Francigena, and overlooking the Magra River, but my mother's family all comes from further north in the Lunigiana. My parents had rented an apartment there.

https://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/97942274.jpg

I've posted quite a bit about it and the coastal areas in particular in the travel section. I've also posted extensively about Toscana.

In case you're not familiar with it, the Valle Borbera is a region between Piacenza, Alessandria, the hinterlands of Genova, and bordering on far western Emilia. It's hard to put a name on it...very Ligurian but also some Piemonte and Lombardia and Emilia. No wonder it scores so close to the Piemonte samples. Maybe just call it the Quattro Province? :)
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_Borbera
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_Province

Benzgolv
28-11-16, 00:35
Nice thread!
All my Italian ancestors are from the Piemonte region. Half of them are from the western part of the Cuneo Province, near Saluzzo and the other half is from the eastern part of Piemonte, near Tortona.

Saluzzo was controlled by the Marquess of Saluzzo until it was incorporated by the House of Savoy into the Kingdom of Sardinia and Piemonte. Tortona was under control of the Duchy of Milan until it was incorporated by the House of Savoy too.

I know they lived there since at least the 17th century, but only have registers of them living in both places since the early 19th century, which is a shame since I could trace my Swiss family (which was registered in the church) from Canton Valais back to the year 1300 in some lineages.
My great-great grandfather from Tortona took care of the horses of the House of Savoy. I know people there with the same surname that still do the same (they breed horses), which I think it's a tradition in the area.
On the other side, my ancestors from the town near Saluzzo were all farmers. I know they were very poor and some were illiterate.

Phenotipically, my family from Saluzzo was red-haired and brown-haired and my great grandfather had blue eyes. My tortonese great-grandmother had deep blue eyes and blond hair. I don't know what did her parents look like.

Saluzzo:
8243
8244

Tortona:
8245
8246

Sile
28-11-16, 07:59
my family line on map below

red circled area = my paternal line 1680 to present

blue circled area = my maternal line 1710 to present

others are my wifes paternal and maternal


http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/pedig_zps2mng4cks.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/pedig_zps2mng4cks.jpg.html)

Joey D
28-11-16, 10:18
My family comes from Graham Island.

Unfortunately, the island became submerged in 1832 and my family has not been able to return since.

We have been wondering the world ever since.

Angela
28-11-16, 17:54
Nice thread!
All my Italian ancestors are from the Piemonte region. Half of them are from the western part of the Cuneo Province, near Saluzzo and the other half is from the eastern part of Piemonte, near Tortona.

Saluzzo was controlled by the Marquess of Saluzzo until it was incorporated by the House of Savoy into the Kingdom of Sardinia and Piemonte. Tortona was under control of the Duchy of Milan until it was incorporated by the House of Savoy too.

I know they lived there since at least the 17th century, but only have registers of them living in both places since the early 19th century, which is a shame since I could trace my Swiss family (which was registered in the church) from Canton Valais back to the year 1300 in some lineages.
My great-great grandfather from Tortona took care of the horses of the House of Savoy. I know people there with the same surname that still do the same (they breed horses), which I think it's a tradition in the area.
On the other side, my ancestors from the town near Saluzzo were all farmers. I know they were very poor and some were illiterate.

Phenotipically, my family from Saluzzo was red-haired and brown-haired and my great grandfather had blue eyes. My tortonese great-grandmother had deep blue eyes and blond hair. I don't know what did her parents look like.

Saluzzo:



Tortona:



It's spectacular looking. Do any of your Italian relatives still speak at least their local dialect? Here in the U.S. the language is usually totally gone by the third generation. In my husband's family his parents, who were second generation, could understand Neapolitan dialect on the one hand and Calabrian on the other, but couldn't really speak it. From what I can gather it was a way of being “American”. My husband doesn't know a word of any kind of Italian even after visiting at least once a year.

The second generation still "cooked" Italian, or Italian-American, which is slightly different, but his sister and cousins, for example, aren't all that handy in the kitchen, although they try to recreate a few of their grandmother's recipes once in a while. Part of all this is that there's been so much marriage out, usually with Irish or Irish/German or American "colonial" people. One memorable wedding, his cousin’s, was with a groom from West Virginia. At first it was like the Berlin Wall cut through the room, but my husband's family is very gregarious and warm, so pretty soon the groom's family were doing the tarantella, and my husband's family was singing, or trying to sing, John Denver's Country Roads. :) It was sort of the Italian version of the movie "My Big Fat Greek Wedding."

Anyway, in your honor...

Piemontesina Bella...the translation into English will follow. I like this version because it reminds me of all my uncles and my father getting up to sing at family get togethers. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoqOqpFOgzA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoqOqpFOgzA

"Goodbye, beautiful far-off days,
My little friend, I have to leave you:
My studies here are finished,
We have to stop dreaming.

I'll go far away, where I don't know
I leave with tears in my heart,
Give me one last loving kiss!

Chorus:
I can't forget you
Beautiful Piemontesina
You'll be the only star
That will shine for me.

Remember those nights
That you spent in Valentino
With the blond student
Who was hugging you to his heart.

Your cheerful student,
Since that distant day, has become a doctor;
I heal the poor
But I cannot heal my own heart.

Youth won't return again:
How many memories of love!
I have left my heart in Torino.

Chorus

Players all, alas! :)

This is a less well-known song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPF9eraGoaw

Benzgolv
28-11-16, 19:12
It's spectacular looking. Do any of your Italian relatives still speak at least their local dialect? Here in the U.S. the language is usually totally gone by the third generation. In my husband's family his parents, who were second generation, could understand Neapolitan dialect on the one hand and Calabrian on the other, but couldn't really speak it. From what I can gather it was a way of being “American”. My husband doesn't know a word of any kind of Italian even after visiting at least once a year.

The second generation still "cooked" Italian, or Italian-American, which is slightly different, but his sister and cousins, for example, aren't all that handy in the kitchen, although they try to recreate a few of their grandmother's recipes once in a while. Part of all this is that there's been so much marriage out, usually with Irish or Irish/German or American "colonial" people. One memorable wedding, his cousin’s, was with a groom from West Virginia. At first it was like the Berlin Wall cut through the room, but my husband's family is very gregarious and warm, so pretty soon the groom's family were doing the tarantella, and my husband's family was singing, or trying to sing, John Denver's Country Roads. :) It was sort of the Italian version of the movie "My Big Fat Greek Wedding."

Anyway, in your honor...

Piemontesina Bella...the translation into English will follow. I like this version because it reminds me of all my uncles and my father getting up to sing at family get togethers. :)

"Goodbye, beautiful far-off days,
My little friend, I have to leave you:
My studies here are finished,
We have to stop dreaming.

I'll go far away, where I don't know
I leave with tears in my heart,
Give me one last loving kiss!

Chorus:
I can't forget you
Beautiful Piemontesina
You'll be the only star
That will shine for me.

Remember those nights
That you spent in Valentino
With the blond student
Who was hugging you to his heart.

Your cheerful student,
Since that distant day, has become a doctor;
I heal the poor
But I cannot heal my own heart.

Youth won't return again:
How many memories of love!
I have left my heart in Torino.

Chorus

Players all, alas! :)

This is a less well-known song:

Hahah that wedding must have been incredible! Thanks for showing me that video, I love everything related to Piedmontese culture and makes me proud of my ancestors.
Here in Argentina, same happened. By the 2nd generation language was dead, except for few words that remained in our language due to the similarity between Spanish and Italian (incluiding Piedmontese, Neapolitan and other languages spoken by the immigrants). Unlike southern Italians who, like in America, settled in big cities (mainly Buenos Aires), the Piedmontese settled in Argentine's interior, in the middle of the countryside (my family is from 3 towns of 2000 inhabitants), as they were mostly farmers and the Pampa region (one of the richest and most fertile in the world) needed european farmers. This isolation made it easier to preserve some customs, but some didn't survive because there was a lot of intermarriage like in America, but instead of marrying Germans or Irish, here they got married to locals and other immigrants. For example, in my family (all from different sides):

-Piedmontese great-grandfather: married a Swiss
-Piedmontese great-grandmother: married a local who was half Italian and half mestizo (some spanish and amerindian)
-Piedmontese great-greatgrandmother: married a Danish

However, language didn't survive because of the Argentine government enforced Spanish, which was mandatory for all immigrants to integrate into our society. Children who were caught speaking Piedmontese or Walser Deutsch (the language of Swiss immigrants from canton Valais) at school were victims of bullying and were sactioned by school authorities. Some words remained in our everyday colloquial language, like the use of prepositions, which I don't know how to explain to a foreigner.

I thank god we kept -at least- Bagna Cauda and Vitel Toné, my favorite dishes. And fernet, I almost forgot it, my favorite alcoholic drink! (although it's from the Veneto region).

EDIT:
This is a second generation Piedmontese speaking the language in the countryside, near my family's hometown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avCLfM2O78A

Angela
28-11-16, 22:56
Hahah that wedding must have been incredible! Thanks for showing me that video, I love everything related to Piedmontese culture and makes me proud of my ancestors.
Here in Argentina, same happened. By the 2nd generation language was dead, except for few words that remained in our language due to the similarity between Spanish and Italian (incluiding Piedmontese, Neapolitan and other languages spoken by the immigrants). Unlike southern Italians who, like in America, settled in big cities (mainly Buenos Aires), the Piedmontese settled in Argentine's interior, in the middle of the countryside (my family is from 3 towns of 2000 inhabitants), as they were mostly farmers and the Pampa region (one of the richest and most fertile in the world) needed european farmers. This isolation made it easier to preserve some customs, but some didn't survive because there was a lot of intermarriage like in America, but instead of marrying Germans or Irish, here they got married to locals and other immigrants. For example, in my family (all from different sides):

-Piedmontese great-grandfather: married a Swiss
-Piedmontese great-grandmother: married a local who was half Italian and half mestizo (some spanish and amerindian)
-Piedmontese great-greatgrandmother: married a Danish

However, language didn't survive because of the Argentine government enforced Spanish, which was mandatory for all immigrants to integrate into our society. Children who were caught speaking Piedmontese or Walser Deutsch (the language of Swiss immigrants from canton Valais) at school were victims of bullying and were sactioned by school authorities. Some words remained in our everyday colloquial language, like the use of prepositions, which I don't know how to explain to a foreigner.

I thank god we kept -at least- Bagna Cauda and Vitel Toné, my favorite dishes. And fernet, I almost forgot it, my favorite alcoholic drink! (although it's from the Veneto region).

EDIT:
This is a second generation Piedmontese speaking the language in the countryside, near my family's hometown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avCLfM2O78A

I can understand a lot of it, but then Emilian and Ligurian, like Piemontese, are all Gallo-Romance languages. The looks are familiar, too. My Emilian side also has some people with that burly, muscular look, with the big heads. Not all, of course. There's variation everywhere in Italy. However, the Ligurians, at least the coastal ones, tend to be slimmer and lighter boned, imo, yet still very strong, indestructible, really.

In terms of food, we share certain dishes with Piemonte, like egg pasta, of course, dressing it not only with meat ragu but with butter and sage, and eating meat filled pasta the same way, or in soup. One of my favorite things is either anolini or tortellini in brodo. Another dish we share, which my parents loved but which I don't really like is bollito misto. I don't like boiled meats of any kind. I think it's the texture that bothers me, and the fact that the meat becomes so dry and flavorless.

Anyway, there are two things that are definitely better in Piemonte. One is the truffles. I like them over pasta and I even like them over eggs, and I'm not normally an egg eater, except in frittata. Do you get truffles in Argentina? Also the wine, of course. Barolo is my favorite wine in the world.

My other favorite in Piemonte is the combination of chocolate and coffee. Look at it and weep, people. :) A bicerin:
http://img1.sunset.timeinc.net/sites/default/files/image/2007/11/layered-mocha-x.jpg

I hope for your sake that it also survived. :)

I had meant to ask, did any people of Genovese or Ligurian descent in general settle near your family? A lot of people from La Spezia and the mountainous areas around it, and even from the Lunigiana, immigrated to Argentina, and some to Brazil.

Benzgolv
28-11-16, 23:24
I can understand a lot of it, but then Emilian and Ligurian, like Piemontese, are all Gallo-Romance languages. The looks are familiar, too. My Emilian side also has some people with that burly, muscular look, with the big heads. Not all, of course. There's variation everywhere in Italy. However, the Ligurians, at least the coastal ones, tend to be slimmer and lighter boned, imo, yet still very strong, indestructible, really.

In terms of food, we share certain dishes with Piemonte, like egg pasta, of course, dressing it not only with meat ragu but with butter and sage, and eating meat filled pasta the same way, or in soup. One of my favorite things is either anolini or tortellini in brodo. Another dish we share, which my parents loved but which I don't really like is bollito misto. I don't like boiled meats of any kind. I think it's the texture that bothers me, and the fact that the meat becomes so dry and flavorless.

Anyway, there are two things that are definitely better in Piemonte. One is the truffles. I like them over pasta and I even like them over eggs, and I'm not normally an egg eater, except in frittata. Do you get truffles in Argentina? Also the wine, of course. Barolo is my favorite wine in the world.

My other favorite in Piemonte is the combination of chocolate and coffee. Look at it and weep, people. :) A bicerin:
http://img1.sunset.timeinc.net/sites/default/files/image/2007/11/layered-mocha-x.jpg

I hope for your sake that it also survived. :)

I had meant to ask, did any people of Genovese or Ligurian descent in general settle near your family? A lot of people from La Spezia and the mountainous areas around it, and even from the Lunigiana, immigrated to Argentina, and some to Brazil.

I love all the dishes you just mentioned. I think I inherited my culinary tastes from my Piedmontese side. Sadly, most of those dishes didn't survive here in Argentina, especially truffs and barolo which obviously weren't availible in our country, so they could only cook with ingridients they found here, in the middle of the countryside.

About Genoese and Ligurian immigrants I have to say I don't know anyone in my family nor people in town. I just know that Genoese immigrants settled mostly in Buenos Aires, maybe because it has a harbour as they came from coastal areas. For example, the fans of the most important football club in Argentina, Boca Juniors, are called "xeneize" in singular and "xeneizes" in plural, that means "Genoese" in genoese. This is because La Boca neighborhood was populated mostly by Genoese people. Also, in Argentina we say "pibe" instead of "chico" (which means "boy"), a word that comes frome genoese "pive" which means "apprentice" or "the boy who does errands".

HYGILI4K
29-11-16, 01:39
My italian blood comes from my father. He is of full italian descent.

All his great-grandparents were born there.

Great-grandfather from Grignano Polesine (RO) married with great-grandmother from San Zenone degli Ezzelini (TV). From their union came my father's paternal grandfather.
Great-grandfather from Marciana (LI) married with great-grandmother from Sinalunga (SI). From their union came my father's paternal grandmother.
Great-grandfather from Sorgà (VR) married with great-grandmother from Castelbelforte (MN). From their union came my father's maternal grandfather.
Great-grandfather from Camposampiero (PD) married with great-grandmother from Meolo (VE). From their union came my father's maternal grandmother.

Migrated fleeing from hunger.

Here, with hardwork on the coffee plantations they saved enough money and all we have today is because of them (along with my portuguese maternal grandparents). People that came from another continent with nothing but dreams of a new life. I owe them so much!

About the language, the only italian words that I heard from my father are curses and bestemmia.

Angela
29-11-16, 02:04
My italian blood comes from my father. He is of full italian descent.

All his great-grandparents were born there.

Great-grandfather from Grignano Polesine (RO) married with great-grandmother from San Zenone degli Ezzelini (TV). From their union came my father's paternal grandfather.
Great-grandfather from Marciana (LI) married with great-grandmother from Sinalunga (SI). From their union came my father's paternal grandmother.
Great-grandfather from Sorgà (VR) married with great-grandmother from Castelbelforte (MN). From their union came my father's maternal grandfather.
Great-grandfather from Camposampiero (PD) married with great-grandmother from Meolo (VE). From their union came my father's maternal grandmother.

Migrated fleeing from hunger.

Here, with hardwork on the coffee plantations they saved enough money and all we have today is because of them (along with my portuguese maternal grandparents). People that came from another continent with nothing but dreams of a new life. I owe them so much!

About the language, the only italian words that I heard from my father are curses and bestemmia.

I've read something about the work on those plantations and it sounds like a horror. They should be honored indeed. Yes, today when the Veneto and Emilia Romagna are so prosperous, some people forget the miseria that ruled the countryside in those areas, and fueled the migration.

Did anything of the culture survive? Food, music, dance?

Have you ever been there for a visit?

@Benzgolv,

For those who don't know what we're talking about...

Vitello tonnato-Veal with tuna sauce. By us it's a summer dish because it's served room temperature. In richer areas you can buy it prepared.
http://bambinizerotre.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/foto-vitello-tonnato...jpg

Bagna Cauda-Warm bath of oil, butter, garlic and anchovies. You may think you don't like vegetables, but you will dunked in this...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3193/3068911468_b3d2266fe6.jpg


When you're next in Piemonte, for goodness sakes sample the pastries as well as the chocolates, many of them paired with hazelnuts. The ones all the way to the left are baba au rum. They're drenched in it. I'm not normally a sweet eater, but I make an exception for this.

http://www.turinitalyguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Crown-of-Delights_pasticcini.jpg

davef
29-11-16, 05:42
Frosinone is where my italian background is from. Found out from my dad years ago; he spioke to a genealogist.

Sile
29-11-16, 06:50
I love all the dishes you just mentioned. I think I inherited my culinary tastes from my Piedmontese side. Sadly, most of those dishes didn't survive here in Argentina, especially truffs and barolo which obviously weren't availible in our country, so they could only cook with ingridients they found here, in the middle of the countryside.

About Genoese and Ligurian immigrants I have to say I don't know anyone in my family nor people in town. I just know that Genoese immigrants settled mostly in Buenos Aires, maybe because it has a harbour as they came from coastal areas. For example, the fans of the most important football club in Argentina, Boca Juniors, are called "xeneize" in singular and "xeneizes" in plural, that means "Genoese" in genoese. This is because La Boca neighborhood was populated mostly by Genoese people. Also, in Argentina we say "pibe" instead of "chico" (which means "boy"), a word that comes frome genoese "pive" which means "apprentice" or "the boy who does errands".

this makes me laugh .............recognize any ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBDJrmLYcQY

Benzgolv
29-11-16, 12:31
@Benzgolv,

For those who don't know what we're talking about...

Vitello tonnato-Veal with tuna sauce. By us it's a summer dish because it's served room temperature. In richer areas you can buy it prepared.
http://bambinizerotre.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/foto-vitello-tonnato...jpg

Bagna Cauda-Warm bath of oil, butter, garlic and anchovies. You may think you don't like vegetables, but you will dunked in this...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3193/3068911468_b3d2266fe6.jpg


When you're next in Piemonte, for goodness sakes sample the pastries as well as the chocolates, many of them paired with hazelnuts. The ones all the way to the left are baba au rum. They're drenched in it. I'm not normally a sweet eater, but I make an exception for this.

You are making me cry haha. I won't be in Piemonte until 2018, so I'll have to conform with Nutella and Vitel tonné in summer meanwhile :)



this makes me laugh .............recognize any ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBDJrmLYcQY

I recognize the accent! Haha I'm not that good speaking Italian, but I recognize it. Now I'm following that Youtube channel!

Angela
29-11-16, 16:06
@HYGILI4K (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/48851-HYGILI4K)

Are these songs familiar?

El Vin Le' Bon-Wine is good! :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2-EMIjsHtA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2-EMIjsHtA

I always thought this song was cute, especially for children,and years ago I came across this video that shows it was sung in Brazil.

This is how you "grow" polenta:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tOdDgq82f0

La Furlana:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c62vAhUI4Gw

Of course, you don't need me to go through the many contributions that the Veneto made to the world or its storied past.

@Davef,

There were a lot of people from Frosinone in the town we moved to in the U.S. It's basically south of Rome heading into Campania. If you ever visit Rome it's a short trip.

@Benzgolv,

Basically, the video follows an argument between husband and wife over whether the husband's mother should go on vacation with them. (The whole thing is one stereotype after another, but very funny nonetheless.) While I had to watch the movie about the Neapolitan Camorra with Italian subtitles, the subject matter here is simple enough that I had no problem with any of the bits. My favorite was during the Sicilian segment, when she gets right in his face, looks him in the eye, and says, "Paura mi fa". Oh, you really scare me! Don't mess with Sicilian women. :)

In the interests of full disclosure, my husband and I, and later husband and children and I often went on vacation with my parents, more often than not, in fact, and no, not because they always paid. :) He had no problem with it , thank God. Maybe you have to be Italian to understand?

Oh, for our new members in general, if you go to the European culture section and follow arts and entertainment and "music", you'll come on an Italian folkmusic thread. I posted songs and dances from all over Italy, but a lot from the north. Many of these songs were sung throughout northern Italy,

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26246-Italian-Folk-traditional-Songs-(also-in-dialects)-and-Dances

For example, here are some Alpini singing "Amici Miei": My Friends".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUefPFVt5Cg

This is from a group that originates on the border of Alessandria and touches my father's area on the east. I love all their songs, hear them every summer. Baraban-La Brunetta, or "The Brunette".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkBYn-AYULU

Azzurro
30-11-16, 01:20
My father's side is from Roccanova, Basilicata, both my grandparents were born there, three of my four greatparents were born there and other was born in Aliano which is a neighbouring paese, the book and movie of Cristo si Fermato a Eboli takes place in Aliano, there is a movie starring Gian Maria Volontè, if anybody is interested in watching.

My mother's side is from Cattolica Eraclea, all of my Sicilian ancestry is from Cattolica Eraclea starting from my grandparents up until at least since the early 1800's, its located in the region of Agrigento.

Azzurro
30-11-16, 01:21
I don't understand why my writing came out all weird?

HYGILI4K
30-11-16, 01:49
@Angela

The work on the coffee plantations is cruel. The sun is so strong! High risk of skin cancer.

I never visited Italy, but I hope one day I will.

Here in my city (northeast of São Paulo state), there is no sign of italian music or dance. These elements of the italian culture survived better in the southern region of the country and in São Paulo city.

On the other hand, Italian food is popular all over the country. I love polenta and lasanha (lasagne).

Joey D
30-11-16, 01:57
Hi Azzurro

Have you ever visited 'a Vaddi dî Tempî ?

We have an expression from my neck of the woods, appropriate for this site: aviri passatu vaddi e vadduna - said of someone who has travelled widely, experienced much of the world, who has been a bit adventurous in his life, who has been there done that, etc.

Benzgolv
30-11-16, 02:35
@Benzgolv,

Basically, the video follows an argument between husband and wife over whether the husband's mother should go on vacation with them. (The whole thing is one stereotype after another, but very funny nonetheless.) While I had to watch the movie about the Neapolitan Camorra with Italian subtitles, the subject matter here is simple enough that I had no problem with any of the bits. My favorite was during the Sicilian segment, when she gets right in his face, looks him in the eye, and says, "Paura mi fa". Oh, you really scare me! Don't mess with Sicilian women. :)

In the interests of full disclosure, my husband and I, and later husband and children and I often went on vacation with my parents, more often than not, in fact, and no, not because they always paid. :) He had no problem with it , thank God. Maybe you have to be Italian to understand?

Oh, for our new members in general, if you go to the European culture section and follow arts and entertainment and "music", you'll come on an Italian folkmusic thread. I posted songs and dances from all over Italy, but a lot from the north. Many of these songs were sung throughout northern Italy,

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26246-Italian-Folk-traditional-Songs-(also-in-dialects)-and-Dances

For example, here are some Alpini singing "Amici Miei": My Friends".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUefPFVt5Cg

This is from a group that originates on the border of Alessandria and touches my father's area on the east. I love all their songs, hear them every summer. Baraban-La Brunetta, or "The Brunette".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkBYn-AYULU
I like them. The lastone comes Alessandria, where my great-grandmother's hometown is located. Thanks for the recommendations! I have to start listening more Italian music. The last song I listend was the one of the 1990 World Cup (my favorite World Cup), I think it's called "estate italiana".

davef
30-11-16, 02:46
I've read something about the work on those plantations and it sounds like a horror. They should be honored indeed. Yes, today when the Veneto and Emilia Romagna are so prosperous, some people forget the miseria that ruled the countryside in those areas, and fueled the migration.

Did anything of the culture survive? Food, music, dance?

Have you ever been there for a visit?

@Benzgolv,

For those who don't know what we're talking about...

Vitello tonnato-Veal with tuna sauce. By us it's a summer dish because it's served room temperature. In richer areas you can buy it prepared.
http://bambinizerotre.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/foto-vitello-tonnato...jpg

Bagna Cauda-Warm bath of oil, butter, garlic and anchovies. You may think you don't like vegetables, but you will dunked in this...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3193/3068911468_b3d2266fe6.jpg


When you're next in Piemonte, for goodness sakes sample the pastries as well as the chocolates, many of them paired with hazelnuts. The ones all the way to the left are baba au rum. They're drenched in it. I'm not normally a sweet eater, but I make an exception for this.

http://www.turinitalyguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Crown-of-Delights_pasticcini.jpg

I'm not usually a sweet tooth either but my dessert is the not so italian sweet and sour chicken dipped in blood red sweet and sour sauce with a thing of rice I guess to serve as a natural "Tums"....

I guess we all have a sweet tooth for something

Azzurro
30-11-16, 04:49
Hi Azzurro

Have you ever visited 'a Vaddi dî Tempî ?

We have an expression from my neck of the woods, appropriate for this site: aviri passatu vaddi e vadduna - said of someone who has travelled widely, experienced much of the world, who has been a bit adventurous in his life, who has been there done that, etc.

Hi Joey,

I visited quite abit, but not as much as I wanted too, how about you? Austrailia must be nice, alot of Italians in Melbourne if I am not mistaken? What exact paese are you from in la buona Sicilia?

Angela
30-11-16, 05:59
I like them. The lastone comes Alessandria, where my great-grandmother's hometown is located. Thanks for the recommendations! I have to start listening more Italian music. The last song I listend was the one of the 1990 World Cup (my favorite World Cup), I think it's called "estate italiana".

Yes, that's the name of the song. We also have a thread for regular, i.e. not classical and not folk music of Italy for about the last 80-100 years. I almost always provide an English translation. It's under Arts and Entertainment and then music.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ngs-in-Italian (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26402-Songs-in-Italian)

For me, of the World Cups I've watched, it's the 2006 one that I love, both for the drama of the Italy-Germany game, and for the great squad, and, of course, because we won the World Cup that year. There used to be a great compilation of goals of that Italy-Germany game with commentary by a man called Andres Montes, I think. I can't find it quickly, but it was wonderful; he was as excited as the Italian announcers.

This is a funny video of commentary on those miracle goals against Germany by announcers from seven different countries. Montes does the Spanish language one. He's absolutely stupendous. Que barbaro, he said, Lo quiero ver otra vez!Also, he was chanting, Alessandro Magno!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prGwgU8BMyo

This is a compilation of the goals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-eGO6flHA8

I watched that Italy-Germany game on a huge screen at an Italian restaurant in Sarasota, Florida while we were on vacation. I totally embarrassed my husband and children because I couldn't sit in my seat. It was ok because the owners were actually from Argentina, and once Argentina was gone, they supported Italy, especially against Germany. When those two goals were scored in the last moments the whole place went wild. Some of the staff even went out dancing in the street, and the owner gave everyone a drink on the house. It's a great memory.

Joey D
30-11-16, 06:19
Hi Joey,

I visited quite abit, but not as much as I wanted too, how about you? Austrailia must be nice, alot of Italians in Melbourne if I am not mistaken? What exact paese are you from in la buona Sicilia?

I've visited twice. My family came from the Eastern side of Mt Etna, on the foothills before you drop down to the sea. I visited my mother's old farmhouse, long abandoned. Behind you sits Mt Etna, snow capped for about 8 months of the year, below are beautiful vistas over the Mediterranean, and you can even make out the cliffs of Taorminal in the distance.

It's amazing that such desperately poor people could live in such a beautiful spot.

Benzgolv
30-11-16, 12:17
Yes, that's the name of the song. We also have a thread for regular, i.e. not classical and not folk music of Italy for about the last 80-100 years. I almost always provide an English translation. It's under Arts and Entertainment and then music.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ngs-in-Italian (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26402-Songs-in-Italian)

For me, of the World Cups I've watched, it's the 2006 one that I love, both for the drama of the Italy-Germany game, and for the great squad, and, of course, because we won the World Cup that year. There used to be a great compilation of goals of that Italy-Germany game with commentary by a man called Andres Montes, I think. I can't find it quickly, but it was wonderful; he was as excited as the Italian announcers.

This is a funny video of commentary on those miracle goals against Germany by announcers from seven different countries. Montes does the Spanish language one. He's absolutely stupendous. Que barbaro, he said, Lo quiero ver otra vez!Also, he was chanting, Alessandro Magno!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prGwgU8BMyo

This is a compilation of the goals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-eGO6flHA8

I watched that Italy-Germany game on a huge screen at an Italian restaurant in Sarasota, Florida while we were on vacation. I totally embarrassed my husband and children because I couldn't sit in my seat. It was ok because the owners were actually from Argentina, and once Argentina was gone, they supported Italy, especially against Germany. When those two goals were scored in the last moments the whole place went wild. Some of the staff even went out dancing in the street, and the owner gave everyone a drink on the house. It's a great memory. The 2006 Cup is the one I hate the most beacuse Germany cheated and they had the referee on their side. The referee was a corrupt! After Argentina lost and left the Cup I supported Italy too, like almost all Argentinians, so the owners of the restaurant were okay haha

italouruguayan
03-11-17, 02:04
Hello everyone!
I'm from Montevideo (Uruguay). My paternal grandfather was from San Martino di Lupari (Veneto). We still have relatives there, with whom we are in contact through Facebook. My paternal grandmother, Uruguayan, was a granddaughter of Italians, of Liguria, I believe. And my maternal grandmother, also Uruguayan, had a Neapolitan grandfather. Here in Uruguay, as in Argentina, Italian immigration has influenced the peculiar accent of our Spanish, and has contributed many words. In addition to eating various types of pasta, and pizza (brought by immigrants and not by Hollywood movies), we also have fainá, Pasqualina cake, polenta, etc. The Italian presence is very noticeable in my country, and influences even those who do not have a drop of Italian blood ...

Angela
03-11-17, 03:40
Hello everyone!
I'm from Montevideo (Uruguay). My paternal grandfather was from San Martino di Lupari (Veneto). We still have relatives there, with whom we are in contact through Facebook. My paternal grandmother, Uruguayan, was a granddaughter of Italians, of Liguria, I believe. And my maternal grandmother, also Uruguayan, had a Neapolitan grandfather. Here in Uruguay, as in Argentina, Italian immigration has influenced the peculiar accent of our Spanish, and has contributed many words. In addition to eating various types of pasta, and pizza (brought by immigrants and not by Hollywood movies), we also have fainá, Pasqualina cake, polenta, etc. The Italian presence is very noticeable in my country, and influences even those who do not have a drop of Italian blood ...

Welcome, Italouruguyan,

Obviously some Ligurians did immigrate there if you eat fainá! :)

Auld Reekie
04-11-17, 05:17
My Italian side came from 3 regions of Italy from my mother. Kind of like a Frankenstein, patched together from different parts of Italy to end up in upstate NY to marry one another. My mother's paternal grandfather came from a small mountain town commune called Ferrazzano, Campobasso in Molise. I always hear the joke when I'm in Italy when I mention Molise is that "it doesn't exist". They say it's so small, that nobody ever goes there and it's full of drunk people. Maybe some of that is true. One thing that is true that the ancient inhabitants were a fierce, stubborn warrior group called the Samnites who fought the Romans on many occasions. The tribe was called the Pentri. The Lombards and Avar/Bulgars settled the area where they have excavated their graves goods and were buried with their horses. Paul the Deacon in the 8th century wrote about them and how they still spoke "Latin" but also their language at home. They have some interesting religious traditions and festivals in Molise including Castelnuovo del Volturno. I'm also related to Robert de Niro, who's family were from Ferrazzano and who's grandparents also moved to my city in NY.

My mother's paternal grandmother all came from a region miles from the swiss border of Lombardia in a small town in Brescia. Not much is known to me about them because my great-grandmother died of the flu when she was quite young during the Flu epidemic in the US. My grandfather was sent to an orphanage with his brothers. His father remarried a Sicilian woman who's family hated my family. My grandfather wasn't too fond of her for the many troubles she put them through including involving the FBI with an unknown "Sicilian witch" who threatened to put a curse on my family unless a ransom was paid. Old world malocchio.

My mother's maternal side all came from Avellino in Campagna. They left Italy because my great-grandmother didn't want to marry the man she was set up with. So she ran off with her lover, and came to NY. After giving her 8 children, my great-grandfather disappeared and changed his name, starting a new family in Massachusetts for god knows why. The family didn't speak about it. My great-grandmother started a boarding house for Italians needing a contact, looking for work and a place to stay. Avellino is another area steeped with Samnite traditions. They were the tribe called Hirpini. This name means the wolf in ancient Oscan but oddly it made it's way into English from Oscan via Latin, French and into English and became the word hearse. Strange. Italian diaspora interests me deeply. A great book called On the Ocean about emigration is by Elmondo De Amicis. It's his personal account on board the Nord America from the port of Genoa to Uruguay in 1884. Funny thing is that I'm moving to Sassari Sardinia with my fiance this winter. My mother says I'm going in reverse! I would love to make a film documentary about all of the places in the world that the Italian diaspora settled. Below is a little video about Samnites in Molise and the pictures are the deer man in Castelnuovo del Volturno.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGtuMJYKTvw94359436

Angela
04-11-17, 18:23
My Italian side came from 3 regions of Italy from my mother. Kind of like a Frankenstein, patched together from different parts of Italy to end up in upstate NY to marry one another. My mother's paternal grandfather came from a small mountain town commune called Ferrazzano, Campobasso in Molise. I always hear the joke when I'm in Italy when I mention Molise is that "it doesn't exist". They say it's so small, that nobody ever goes there and it's full of drunk people. Maybe some of that is true. One thing that is true that the ancient inhabitants were a fierce, stubborn warrior group called the Samnites who fought the Romans on many occasions. The tribe was called the Pentri. The Lombards and Avar/Bulgars settled the area where they have excavated their graves goods and were buried with their horses. Paul the Deacon in the 8th century wrote about them and how they still spoke "Latin" but also their language at home. They have some interesting religious traditions and festivals in Molise including Castelnuovo del Volturno. I'm also related to Robert de Niro, who's family were from Ferrazzano and who's grandparents also moved to my city in NY.

My mother's paternal grandmother all came from a region miles from the swiss border of Lombardia in a small town in Brescia. Not much is know to me about them because my great-grandmother died of the flu when she was quite young during the Flu epidemic in the US. My grandfather was sent to an orphanage with his brothers. His father remarried a Sicilian woman who's family hated my family. My grandfather wan't too fond of her for the many troubles she put them through including involving the FBI with an unknown "Sicilian witch" who threatened to put a curse on my family unless a ransom was paid. Old world malocchio.

My mother's maternal side all came from Avellino in Campagna. They left Italy because my great-grandmother didn't want to marry the man she was set up with. So she ran off with her lover, and came to NY. After giving her 8 children, my great-grandfather disappeared and changed his name, starting a new family in Massachusetts for god knows why. The family didn't speak about it. My great-grandmother started a boarding house for Italians needing a contact, looking for work and a place to stay. Avellino is another area steeped with Samnite traditions. They were the tribe called Hirpini. This name means the wolf in ancient Oscan but oddly it made it's way into English from Oscan via Latin, French and into English and became the word hearse. Strange. Italian diaspora interests me deeply. A great book called On the Ocean about emigration is by Elmondo De Amicis. It's his personal account on board the Nord America from the port of Genoa to Uruguay in 1884. Funny thing is that I'm moving to Sassari Sardinia with my fiance this winter. My mother says I'm going in reverse! I would love to make a film documentary about all of the places in the world that the Italian diaspora settled. Below is a little video about Samnites in Molise and the pictures are the deer man in Castelnuovo del Volturno.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGtuMJYKTvw94359436

Great video. I have a lot of respect for them that they want to keep this tradition and the ancient method of producing cheese alive.

Regio X
20-03-19, 04:36
How the ancestry locations of someone from the "diaspora" looks like. :)

How to read the map:

Orange - father side
Yellow - mother side

Circles - locations of their grandparents
Bigger quadrates - locations of great-grandparents' who were born in different places from grandparents
Smaller quadrates - known ancestry locations even farther in time

Polygons (total of 8 clusters) cover ancestry locations of each of their grandparents.

Red traces above the quadrates indicate the origin of the most distant known ancestor in male line. The associated cluster is therefore related to the paternal grandfather.
Red traces below the quadrates indicate the origin of the most distant known ancestor in female line. The associated cluster is therefore related to the maternal grandmother.

PGM indicates the cluster related to the paternal grandmother.
The remaining cluster is related to the maternal grandfather.

https://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e102/paleoven/ancestryLocations_zps48kbtfn2.jpg (https://s38.photobucket.com/user/paleoven/media/ancestryLocations_zps48kbtfn2.jpg.html)

I met only my maternal grandfather. His native language was what they call "Talian", a mix of North Italian dialects and traces of Portuguese. He barely spoke Portuguese itself, and he usually "italianized" Portuguese words, so the communication with him was not easy. More or less like this (the difference is that he did speak "some" Portuguese, even if very badly, and with a huge accent):

https://youtu.be/gASt0urMNDM

Or like the vecieta in this documentary:

https://youtu.be/DkJNJXg9iTk

I remember to ask him, a little before he passed away, if he would like to know Italy. He said no, because there was just misery in there. Lol Well, he was a very simple man from the country, illiterate (hadn't have the opportunity to study, as many in that time and place), then he didn't know that Italy became a rich country. He was probably based on what his immigrant father told him many decades before. A point of view more than one hundred years old then. :)

My parents were born in "Italian" cities, and talked in Talian when they were children. My mother spoke it as first language till abt. 12 years old. I remember they talked in Talian when they didn't want we (me and my siblings) understand what they were talking. It worked just for a while, je je je.

Now we're all Italian citizens.

Angela
20-03-19, 06:22
How the ancestry locations of someone from the "diaspora" looks like. :)
How to read the map:
Orange - father side
Yellow - mother side
Circles - locations of their grandparents
Bigger quadrates - locations of great-grandparents' who were born in different places from grandparents
Smaller quadrates - known ancestry locations even farther in time
Polygons (total of 8 clusters) cover ancestry locations of each of their grandparents.
Red traces above the quadrates indicate the origin of the most distant known ancestor in male line. The associated cluster is therefore related to the paternal grandfather.
Red traces below the quadrates indicate the origin of the most distant known ancestor in female line. The associated cluster is therefore related to the maternal grandmother.
PGM indicates the cluster related to the paternal grandmother.
The remaining cluster is related to the maternal grandfather.
https://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e102/paleoven/ancestryLocations_zps48kbtfn2.jpg (https://s38.photobucket.com/user/paleoven/media/ancestryLocations_zps48kbtfn2.jpg.html)
I met only my maternal grandfather. His native language was what they call "Talian", a mix of North Italian dialects and traces of Portuguese. He barely spoke Portuguese itself, and he usually "italianized" Portuguese words, so the communication with him was not easy. More or less like this (the difference is that he did speak "some" Portuguese, even if very badly, and with a huge accent):

https://youtu.be/gASt0urMNDM
Or like the vecieta in this documentary:

https://youtu.be/DkJNJXg9iTk
I remember to ask him, a little before he passed away, if he would like to know Italy. He said no, because there was just misery in there. Lol Well, he was a very simple man from the country, illiterate (hadn't have the opportunity to study, as many in that time and place), then he didn't know that Italy became a rich country. He was probably based on what his immigrant father told him many decades before. A point of view more than one hundred years old then. :)
My parents were born in "Italian" cities, and talked in Talian when they were children. My mother spoke it as first language till abt. 12 years old. I remember they talked in Talian when they didn't want we (me and my siblings) understand what they were talking. It worked just for a while, je je je.
Now we're all Italian citizens.

Just watched the second video. Fascinating. A subculture of a subculture, the Cimbri. As he said, a mixture of Italian and German.

I was very moved by that poveretta, the ninety year old. She travelled those thirty-six days by sea, and then who knows how long by land, to a strange place, for "a better life". It doesn't seem any better to me. Worse, if anything. My great-aunt died in her mid-nineties. She too worked like a mule most of her life, but in her later decades she got rid of that black kerchief and clothes. In fact, she told me that of all the changes she had seen, cars, planes, electronics, that's what she appreciated the most, saying goodbye to those kerchiefs and getting her hair done once a week. :) She also loved her tv and the car and going to the shops or making a passeggiata. While she still cleaned and cooked until the very end, she wasn't farming. The old woman in the video was still out there with her zappa. Yet, everyone is different. I shouldn't be substituting my values and judgments for hers. She said she prefers the fields to work in the house. God bless her. Her eyesight may be going, but as of the time of this video her brain was still sharp and alert.

What difficult lives they led, what sacrifices they made for their children and grandchildren, our ancestors. It always broke my heart listening to them recount stories of the past.

I don't know if you ever looked the Cimbri up. This Wiki article on them is pretty good. You can see the Lessinia area mentioned in the Video.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbrian_language

Btw, there was a paper which discussed the Cimbri speaking groups in northeastern Italy.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704

"The German speaking populations show the most marked signatures of genetic drift. As predicted by the outlying positions of Sappada, Timau and Luserna in the plot of genetic distances, the intra-group variation is very high (0.240, p<0.05), around two times higher than that found for geographically distant European populations. Moreover, the haplotype diversity values in these populations are the lowest of the the dataset, with the exception of Lessinia (see Table S6 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#pone.0081704.s011)). Different haplogroups prevail in Sappada (E1b-V13 63%) and Timau (R1a-M17 56%), and different R1b subhaplogroups in Sauris (S139 34%), Lessinia (S116 17%) and Luserna (M269 84%). The considerable differentiation among German-speaking populations may be also seen as a consequence of their demographic history. In fact, they are in continuity with small founding groups [47 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B47)] which settled in the present day location in Medieval times. Furthermore, as we have recently proposed [30 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B30)], a relative reciprocal isolation could have occurred even among the linguistically closely related communities of Sappada, Timau, and Sauris as a result of “local ethnicity”. In this condition, the members of each community tend to identify their ancestry with their own village rather than considering themselves as part of the same ethnic group, similarly to what occurs in other alpine regions [48 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B48)].

The genetic differentiation between the two Cimbri populations of Luserna and Lessinia deserves further discussion. Both these communities derive from Bavarian populations that colonized a vast territory of the Eastern Italian Alps starting from 1053 AD (Veneto; [49 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B49)]) to 1216 AD (Trentino; [44 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B44)]). Luserna is genetically very distant from all the other Alpine populations (average Fst=0.328; see Table S6 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#pone.0081704.s011)) and shows a strikingly low intra-population diversity (0.483±0.119). Paternal lineages are represented mostly by the R1b-M269* (frequency of 84%), with six different STR haplotypes associated with only one founder surname. Lessinia shows different, if not opposite, features. The average genetic distances from other populations (Fst=0.097; see Table S6 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#pone.0081704.s011)) is less than one third compared to Luserna, while HD is close to the highest values of our dataset (0.978±0.019; Table S6 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#pone.0081704.s011)). The prevalent haplogroup, R1b-M269*, accounts for only one third of the total, the rest represented by different lineages (G-M201, I1-M253, M410-J2A and K-M9), which are associated with twenty-three different surnames. The demographic history of the Luserna and Lessinia communities may help explain their differentiation. Luserna was founded by few families which moved from Lavarone, the first known Cimbrian settlement in the territory of Trentino [44 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B44)]. This could have led to a strong founder effect in this community, a hypothesis supported by a previous study of mtDNA polymorphisms [40 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B40)]. Moreover, Luserna is located on a high plateau (1,333 m a.s.l.) and is quite isolated from the surrounding areas. By contrast, Lessinia, a more extensive area with reliefs of low altitude (Giazza, 758 m a.s.l.), and has been colonized since the XIII century AD through several migration waves of small groups of settlers for more than one century. From the XV century AD, this community opened to, and probably admixed with, Italian neighboring groups [49 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B49)]."

That explains why the old women seemed so Italian to me.

We discussed it here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28268-New-population-isolates-identified-in-the-eastern-Italian-Alps?highlight=genetic+isolates+Italy-Cimbri

Sile
20-03-19, 08:47
How the ancestry locations of someone from the "diaspora" looks like. :)
How to read the map:
Orange - father side
Yellow - mother side
Circles - locations of their grandparents
Bigger quadrates - locations of great-grandparents' who were born in different places from grandparents
Smaller quadrates - known ancestry locations even farther in time
Polygons (total of 8 clusters) cover ancestry locations of each of their grandparents.
Red traces above the quadrates indicate the origin of the most distant known ancestor in male line. The associated cluster is therefore related to the paternal grandfather.
Red traces below the quadrates indicate the origin of the most distant known ancestor in female line. The associated cluster is therefore related to the maternal grandmother.
PGM indicates the cluster related to the paternal grandmother.
The remaining cluster is related to the maternal grandfather.
https://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e102/paleoven/ancestryLocations_zps48kbtfn2.jpg (https://s38.photobucket.com/user/paleoven/media/ancestryLocations_zps48kbtfn2.jpg.html)
I met only my maternal grandfather. His native language was what they call "Talian", a mix of North Italian dialects and traces of Portuguese. He barely spoke Portuguese itself, and he usually "italianized" Portuguese words, so the communication with him was not easy. More or less like this (the difference is that he did speak "some" Portuguese, even if very badly, and with a huge accent):

https://youtu.be/gASt0urMNDM
Or like the vecieta in this documentary:

https://youtu.be/DkJNJXg9iTk
I remember to ask him, a little before he passed away, if he would like to know Italy. He said no, because there was just misery in there. Lol Well, he was a very simple man from the country, illiterate (hadn't have the opportunity to study, as many in that time and place), then he didn't know that Italy became a rich country. He was probably based on what his immigrant father told him many decades before. A point of view more than one hundred years old then. :)
My parents were born in "Italian" cities, and talked in Talian when they were children. My mother spoke it as first language till abt. 12 years old. I remember they talked in Talian when they didn't want we (me and my siblings) understand what they were talking. It worked just for a while, je je je.
Now we're all Italian citizens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cla34bTSvIs

Regio X
20-03-19, 17:34
Just watched the second video. Fascinating. A subculture of a subculture, the Cimbri. As he said, a mixture of Italian and German.

I was very moved by that poveretta, the ninety year old. She travelled those thirty-six days by sea, and then who knows how long by land, to a strange place, for "a better life". It doesn't seem any better to me. Worse, if anything. My great-aunt died in her mid-nineties. She too worked like a mule most of her life, but in her later decades she got rid of that black kerchief and clothes. In fact, she told me that of all the changes she had seen, cars, planes, electronics, that's what she appreciated the most, saying goodbye to those kerchiefs and getting her hair done once a week. :) She also loved her tv and the car and going to the shops or making a passeggiata. While she still cleaned and cooked until the very end, she wasn't farming. The old woman in the video was still out there with her zappa. Yet, everyone is different. I shouldn't be substituting my values and judgments for hers. She said she prefers the fields to work in the house. God bless her. Her eyesight may be going, but as of the time of this video her brain was still sharp and alert.

What difficult lives they led, what sacrifices they made for their children and grandchildren, our ancestors. It always broke my heart listening to them recount stories of the past.

I don't know if you ever looked the Cimbri up. This Wiki article on them is pretty good. You can see the Lessinia area mentioned in the Video.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbrian_language

Btw, there was a paper which discussed the Cimbri speaking groups in northeastern Italy.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704

"The German speaking populations show the most marked signatures of genetic drift. As predicted by the outlying positions of Sappada, Timau and Luserna in the plot of genetic distances, the intra-group variation is very high (0.240, p<0.05), around two times higher than that found for geographically distant European populations. Moreover, the haplotype diversity values in these populations are the lowest of the the dataset, with the exception of Lessinia (see Table S6 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#pone.0081704.s011)). Different haplogroups prevail in Sappada (E1b-V13 63%) and Timau (R1a-M17 56%), and different R1b subhaplogroups in Sauris (S139 34%), Lessinia (S116 17%) and Luserna (M269 84%). The considerable differentiation among German-speaking populations may be also seen as a consequence of their demographic history. In fact, they are in continuity with small founding groups [47 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B47)] which settled in the present day location in Medieval times. Furthermore, as we have recently proposed [30 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B30)], a relative reciprocal isolation could have occurred even among the linguistically closely related communities of Sappada, Timau, and Sauris as a result of “local ethnicity”. In this condition, the members of each community tend to identify their ancestry with their own village rather than considering themselves as part of the same ethnic group, similarly to what occurs in other alpine regions [48 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B48)].

The genetic differentiation between the two Cimbri populations of Luserna and Lessinia deserves further discussion. Both these communities derive from Bavarian populations that colonized a vast territory of the Eastern Italian Alps starting from 1053 AD (Veneto; [49 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B49)]) to 1216 AD (Trentino; [44 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B44)]). Luserna is genetically very distant from all the other Alpine populations (average Fst=0.328; see Table S6 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#pone.0081704.s011)) and shows a strikingly low intra-population diversity (0.483±0.119). Paternal lineages are represented mostly by the R1b-M269* (frequency of 84%), with six different STR haplotypes associated with only one founder surname. Lessinia shows different, if not opposite, features. The average genetic distances from other populations (Fst=0.097; see Table S6 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#pone.0081704.s011)) is less than one third compared to Luserna, while HD is close to the highest values of our dataset (0.978±0.019; Table S6 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#pone.0081704.s011)). The prevalent haplogroup, R1b-M269*, accounts for only one third of the total, the rest represented by different lineages (G-M201, I1-M253, M410-J2A and K-M9), which are associated with twenty-three different surnames. The demographic history of the Luserna and Lessinia communities may help explain their differentiation. Luserna was founded by few families which moved from Lavarone, the first known Cimbrian settlement in the territory of Trentino [44 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B44)]. This could have led to a strong founder effect in this community, a hypothesis supported by a previous study of mtDNA polymorphisms [40 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B40)]. Moreover, Luserna is located on a high plateau (1,333 m a.s.l.) and is quite isolated from the surrounding areas. By contrast, Lessinia, a more extensive area with reliefs of low altitude (Giazza, 758 m a.s.l.), and has been colonized since the XIII century AD through several migration waves of small groups of settlers for more than one century. From the XV century AD, this community opened to, and probably admixed with, Italian neighboring groups [49 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704#B49)]."

That explains why the old women seemed so Italian to me.

We discussed it here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28268-New-population-isolates-identified-in-the-eastern-Italian-Alps?highlight=genetic+isolates+Italy-CimbriAngela, thanks for this study. I'll read it with atention as soon as my little dude here allows. I took a while to do a simple map thanks to him. :)

That's what I thought when I first saw the vecieta: she looks Italian, not German at all. I guess that she was born in South Brazil. It was likely her parents who faced those "36 giorni di macchina e vapore", as the old song says. Merica, Merica... :)
I have a far ancestor "Cimbro del Cansiglio", who migrated from Altipiano di Asiago - where he married this ancestor from Ampezzo-UD - to North Treviso. I found it curious, since Ampezzo is relatively far from Asiago area. How did they meet?
Recently I figured out, thanks to a 23andMe match, that he probably belonged to Y J2b, which in fact is not exactly odd with we consider that some places in there must have lots of it, like Timau-UD: ~30%. Coincidently(?), Timau is not that far from Ampezzo.
http://cimbridelcansiglio.it
http://www.cimbri.info
(Probably not all infos concerning the origin are accurate, but...)

Cimbri in South Brazil were indeed a minority, but I'm not sure they were a minority among a minority. It depends. If we consider Brazil as a whole, then ok, sure; however, if we consider just that macro-area, then no: Italians were the majority by far, and still are, apart "perhaps" in Caxias do Sul, which became a big city.

I also found the documentary really touching. It inevitably brings us back to the difficulties those poor people encountered. Aside this exhausting journey that you mentioned, just in part through sea, they settled in a "virgin" area in South Brazil, with forests, and had to start from scratch. Not easy! Additionally, and perhaps the worst: many of them left relatives - sometimes very close ones - in Italy. I guess you know pretty well what I'm talking about, since you yourself had to migrate. Imagine the suffering with the separarion from siblings and parents, possibly knowing they would never see each other again. I know of situations like this in my own family, especially maternal. Four mother's great-grandparents left five 2nd great-grandparents in Italy. Not to mention siblings. For example, a father's maternal grandfather (so also his parents) left his sister (and daughter, respectivelly), who was already married at that time. (Then my father still has 3rd cousins in there, but they never met. Not yet.)

We have a good collection of stories on immigration btw, mainly from Est Editora (https://www.esteditora.com.br).

Well, things got better more recently, but I'm affraid that those immigrants and the first generation haven't reaped the fruits of their efforts. Who stayed in Italy were in better condition, apparently. Anyway, here we are. :)

Perhaps sometime in the near future I post more stuff related to the diaspora to (South) Brazil.
Cheers!

Regio X
20-03-19, 18:53
Still abt. ancestry locations, it astonishes me some migrations even inside Italy, like the one in my male line. It's not clearly represented in the map, but they stayed quiet just until ~1700. Since then, not a single man in male line was born in a same city, till my own little son. Just amazing! And I myself always wanted to migrate. Possibly some relatively recent mutations in Y-DNA? Just kidding! :)

Angela
21-03-19, 00:03
Angela, thanks for this study. I'll read it with atention as soon as my little dude here allows. I took a while to do a simple map thanks to him. :)

That's what I thought when I first saw the vecieta: she looks Italian, not German at all. I guess that she was born in South Brazil. It was likely her parents who faced those "36 giorni di macchina e vapore", as the old song says. Merica, Merica... :)
I have a far ancestor "Cimbro del Cansiglio", who migrated from Altipiano di Asiago - where he married this ancestor from Ampezzo-UD - to North Treviso. I found it curious, since Ampezzo is relatively far from Asiago area. How did they meet?
Recently I figured out, thanks to a 23andMe match, that he probably belonged to Y J2b, which in fact is not exactly odd with we consider that some places in there must have lots of it, like Timau-UD: ~30%. Coincidently(?), Timau is not that far from Ampezzo.
http://cimbridelcansiglio.it
http://www.cimbri.info
(Probably not all infos concerning the origin are accurate, but...)

Cimbri in South Brazil were indeed a minority, but I'm not sure they were a minority among a minority. It depends. If we consider Brazil as a whole, then ok, sure; however, if we consider just that macro-area, then no: Italians were the majority by far, and still are, apart "perhaps" in Caxias do Sul, which became a big city.

I also found the documentary really touching. It inevitably brings us back to the difficulties those poor people encountered. Aside this exhausting journey that you mentioned, just in part through sea, they settled in a "virgin" area in South Brazil, with forests, and had to start from scratch. Not easy! Additionally, and perhaps the worst: many of them left relatives - sometimes very close ones - in Italy. I guess you know pretty well what I'm talking about, since you yourself had to migrate. Imagine the suffering with the separarion from siblings and parents, possibly knowing they would never see each other again. I know of situations like this in my own family, especially maternal. Four mother's great-grandparents left five 2nd great-grandparents in Italy. Not to mention siblings. For example, a father's maternal grandfather (so also his parents) left his sister (and daughter, respectivelly), who was already married at that time. (Then my father still has 3rd cousins in there, but they never met. Not yet.)

We have a good collection of stories on immigration btw, mainly from Est Editora (https://www.esteditora.com.br).

Well, things got better more recently, but I'm affraid that those immigrants and the first generation haven't reaped the fruits of their efforts. Who stayed in Italy were in better condition, apparently. Anyway, here we are. :)

Perhaps sometime in the near future I post more stuff related to the diaspora to (South) Brazil.
Cheers!

I would enjoy that.

The emotional and psychological cost of migration is sometimes too ignored. I think my mother cried continuously for five years after we came. My father worked all hours of the day and night, and my mother, who didn't speak a word of English, was left alone with us. Other than my father's family, none of whom lived within walking distance, no one spoke Italian. Well, there were a few people who spoke a sort of pidgen Neapolitan mixed with English, but that was about it. My own reactions were definitely not always positive. I remember crying and asking my mother why he'd brought us to a place where they didn't even have "BREAD"! :) Well, they had something they called bread, but I thought it was disgusting. It took a while to find Italian import stores so we could at least eat a semblance of our own food. Italian daughters are often very close to their mothers, but I think I became particularly so out of a sense that I had to protect her, translating for her at stores, banks, school conferences, since I picked up English so quickly. Heck, I was doing the banking when I was about thirteen. It does build character and fosters maturity, I'll say that for it.

It may have been different in South America, but in the U.S. the Italians had the highest rate of return to their home country out of all the immigrant groups. My paternal grandfather did it, dragging the first seven of his eleven children back to Italy with him (my father and the three youngest were born there). They made their money and went back home. I'm not surprised at all.

Angela
21-03-19, 00:25
I would enjoy that.

The emotional and psychological cost of migration is sometimes too ignored. I think my mother cried for five years after we came. My father worked all hours of the day and night, and my mother, who didn't speak a word of English, was left alone with us. Other than my father's family, none of whom lived within walking distance, no one spoke Italian. Well, there were a few people who spoke a sort of pidgen Neapolitan mixed with English, but that was about it. My own reactions were definitely not always positive. I remember crying and asking my father why he'd brought us to a place where they didn't even have "BREAD"! :) Well, they had something they called bread, but I thought it was disgusting. It took a while to find Italian import stores so we could at least eat a semblance of our own food. Italian daughters are often very close to their mothers, but I think I became particularly so out of a sense that I had to protect her, translating for her at stores, banks, school conferences, since I picked up English so quickly. Heck, I was doing the banking when I was about thirteen. It does build character and fosters maturity, I'll say that for it.

It may have been different in South America, but in the U.S. the Italians had the highest rate of return to their home country out of all the immigrant groups. My paternal grandfather did it, dragging the first seven of his eleven children back to Italy with him (my father the three youngest were born there). They made their money and went back home. I'm not surprised at all.

This is a song of homesickness by a Ligurian immigrant to South America who returns so his bones can someday rest with those of his nonna. I know how he feels. :) It's in the dialect of Genova, so the Italian translation shows up at the bottom.

This is the English translation:



But if I think about it...

He had left without a single penny,
thirty years ago, perhaps even more.
He had struggled to put his money in a bank
and to be free to come back some day
and to build his house and his little garden
with a creeper, and a cellar for the wine
with a hammock tied to the trees to use it as a bed,
to rest on it in the evening and morning.
But his son told him «Don’t think about
Genoa, do you really want to go back there?!»


But if I think about it, then I see the sea,
I see my mountains, the Annunziata square1 (https://lyricstranslate.com/en/ma-se-ghe-penso-if-i-think-about.html#footnote1_o7bdb45)
I see Righi again, and I feel a pang in my heart,
I see the Lighthouse, the cave and the dock down there …
I see again Genoa by night, illuminated,
I see the foce on the shore and I hear the sea crashing,
and then I think to go back again
to lay my bones where my grandmother is.


And a lot of time passed, perhaps too much,
his son insisted: «We're fine here,
where do you want to go, dad? we’ll think about later:
the travel, the sea, you’re old... it isn’t convenient!»
«Oh no, oh no! I’m still quite spry and capable
I’m fed up, I can't stand it anymore,
I’m tired of hearing “señor caramba”
I want to go back again down there…
You speak Spanish since you were born here,
I was born in Genoa and …I won’t give up!»


But if I think about it, then I see the sea,
I see my mountains, the Annunziata square,
I see Righi again, and I feel a pang in my heart,
I see the Lighthouse, the cave and the dock down there …
I see again Genoa by night, illuminated,
I see the foce on the shore and I hear the sea crashing,
and then I think to go back again
to lay my bones where my grandmother is.


And without any fuss, like before, he departed
and in Genoa he built his nest again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH4qzSo-krk

This is an English version which better captures the emotion, I think. I've heard this song dozens upon dozens, upon dozens of times, and still she makes me tear up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5CvEnRQqkA

Btw, not that it matters, but I think the old Cimbri woman made that journey. She talks about a young girl child dying and being buried in the sea. Can you imagine the suffering of the parents? No tomb with a picture to visit, to clean, to decorate with flowers. Horrible.

Gash
21-03-19, 03:34
Nonna in Italian means mother ? In Albanian its Nana / Nena

Salento
21-03-19, 03:57
Nonna is Grandmother.

Nana is a Woman with Dwarfism.

People have various ways to call their Parents and Grandparents.

Regio X
21-03-19, 18:32
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cla34bTSvIsI know about the Darcy Loss Luzzatto, from Pinto Bandeira-RS, grandson of trentini and bellunesi. He is an enthusiast of the so-called Talian (https://youtu.be/YfnQkLHQQZs, and has done a grammar (~1994) and a dictionary (~2010).


I would enjoy that.

The emotional and psychological cost of migration is sometimes too ignored. I think my mother cried continuously for five years after we came. My father worked all hours of the day and night, and my mother, who didn't speak a word of English, was left alone with us. Other than my father's family, none of whom lived within walking distance, no one spoke Italian. Well, there were a few people who spoke a sort of pidgen Neapolitan mixed with English, but that was about it. My own reactions were definitely not always positive. I remember crying and asking my mother why he'd brought us to a place where they didn't even have "BREAD"! :) Well, they had something they called bread, but I thought it was disgusting. It took a while to find Italian import stores so we could at least eat a semblance of our own food. Italian daughters are often very close to their mothers, but I think I became particularly so out of a sense that I had to protect her, translating for her at stores, banks, school conferences, since I picked up English so quickly. Heck, I was doing the banking when I was about thirteen. It does build character and fosters maturity, I'll say that for it.

It may have been different in South America, but in the U.S. the Italians had the highest rate of return to their home country out of all the immigrant groups. My paternal grandfather did it, dragging the first seven of his eleven children back to Italy with him (my father and the three youngest were born there). They made their money and went back home. I'm not surprised at all.So your grandfather migrated to America and then returned to Italy... Your father, years after, migrated to America. Is that right? Very interesting! It would be similar to what happened with my godfather. His maternal grandparents migrated to South Brazil, and his mother was born in Caxias do Sul. But then they returned to Treviso, where he was born, and married. In the 1940s, if my memory serves, the couple migrated to Argentina, and in 1950s to South Brazil, now definitely. His mother, born in South Brazil, lived in Treviso till her death with 107 years - believe me! Unfortunately, he himself didn't live that long.
These immigrations to Serra Gaúcha after 1900 were not common, that's why I think the vecieta was born in Antonio Prado-RS, Brazil, rather than Italy, and must have heard from her parents about that misfortune in the ship, involving the poor child. That was not rare, btw; I myself heard about it several times (on bodies thrown into the sea during the journey). Really horrible! Plus, at 9:25 the man asked: "Da dove sono venuti (i genitori)"?. At 17:40 she explains part of the journey, and uses "sono", not "siamo".
Anyway, I don't know how common returns were, compared to North America. I do know that many were disappointed (the propaganda in Italy was exaggerated). Still, some immigrants, satisfied, did send letters to relatives in Italy stimulating migrations; my guess is that sometimes they were absolutely sincere, and other times, still with good intentions, they were possibly distracted or induced by the fact they simply missed their folks. There were also letters of regret. It depends. So, some were really satisfied, some were not exactly happy but didn't want to go back for some reason, and some did want to return, as a mother-in-law's great-grandmother, just for example. After her husband tragically died, she wanted to go back to Italy with the kids, but she hasn't had the ways. To provide an example in my own family: years ago I sent a letter to the Anagrafe of a certain comune in Treviso, asking for a certificato di stato di famiglia storico, and the responsible person wrote more or less the following, in Italian:
- Hey, your ancestor was brother of my great-grandfather, who also migrated to Brazil, but returned to Italy soon after his twins died.
I myself didn't know, and later I saw it was in the same ship. Great coincidence! And it was her to said who my father's 3rd cousins from Italy are.
Anyway, some of these immigrants were very successful, and the descendants generally haven't lost the "attachment" to Italy. An example of both is Raul Randon and ancestors. Raul became a multimillionaire and has never forgotten his roots. You probably don't read Portuguese, but the Google Translator may help you to read this nice article about him and his visits to the ancestry location in Italy:
http://pioneiro.clicrbs.com.br/rs/cultura-e-tendencias/noticia/2019/02/legado-e-idolatria-o-retorno-as-origens-italianas-nos-ultimos-anos-de-vida-de-raul-randon-10803849.html

So, anyway the immigration thrived, and Brazilians, Italians, Germans etc. have done a good work in developing some areas: http://www.economist.com/news/americas/21710848-regions-luck-starts-climate-and-geography-brazils-three-southern-states-escape

Interesting this story of yours. An additional difficulty your family faced apparently was this cultural "isolation", while in my area at least the Italians were almost completely surrounded by... Italians. :) I believe this fact softened a bit their way.

Thanks for the beautiful song. Really touching, and probably even more for those who experienced a migration to a distant place. You usually post some nice and interesting videos, btw. For example, I showed the trallalero for my father and the tammuriata for my mother. They liked them. My mother even shared it with the family. :)

Angela
21-03-19, 19:52
I know about the Darcy Loss Luzzatto, from Pinto Bandeira-RS, grandson of trentini and bellunesi. He is an enthusiast of the so-called Talian (https://youtu.be/YfnQkLHQQZs, and has done a grammar (~1994) and a dictionary (~2010).

So your grandfather migrated to America and then returned to Italy... Your father, years after, migrated to America. Is that right? Very interesting! It would be similar to what happened with my godfather. His maternal grandparents migrated to South Brazil, and his mother was born in Caxias do Sul. But then they returned to Treviso, where he was born, and married. In the 1940s, if my memory serves, the couple migrated to Argentina, and in 1950s to South Brazil, now definitely. His mother, born in South Brazil, lived in Treviso till her death with 107 years - believe me! Unfortunately, he himself didn't live that long.
These immigrations to Serra Gaúcha after 1900 were not common, that's why I think the vecieta was born in Antonio Prado-RS, Brazil, rather than Italy, and must have heard from her parents about that misfortune in the ship, involving the poor child. That was not rare, btw; I myself heard about it several times (on bodies thrown into the sea during the journey). Really horrible! Plus, at 9:25 the man asked: "Da dove sono venuti (i genitori)"?. At 17:40 she explains part of the journey, and uses "sono", not "siamo".
Anyway, I don't know how common returns were, compared to North America. I do know that many were disappointed (the propaganda in Italy was exaggerated). Still, some immigrants, satisfied, did send letters to relatives in Italy stimulating migrations; my guess is that sometimes they were absolutely sincere, and other times, still with good intentions, they were possibly distracted or induced by the fact they simply missed their folks. There were also letters of regret. It depends. So, some were really satisfied, some were not exactly happy but didn't want to go back for some reason, and some did want to return, as a mother-in-law's great-grandmother, just for example. After her husband tragically died, she wanted to go back to Italy with the kids, but she hasn't had the ways. To provide an example in my own family: years ago I sent a letter to the Anagrafe of a certain comune in Treviso, asking for a certificato di stato di famiglia storico, and the responsible person wrote more or less the following, in Italian:
- Hey, your ancestor was brother of my great-grandfather, who also migrated to Brazil, but returned to Italy soon after his twins died.
I myself didn't know, and later I saw it was in the same ship. Great coincidence! And it was her to said who my father's 3rd cousins from Italy are.
Anyway, some of these immigrants were very successful, and the descendants generally haven't lost the "attachment" to Italy. An example of both is Raul Randon and ancestors. Raul became a multimillionaire and has never forgotten his roots. You probably don't read Portuguese, but the Google Translator may help you to read this nice article about him and his visits to the ancestry location in Italy:
http://pioneiro.clicrbs.com.br/rs/cultura-e-tendencias/noticia/2019/02/legado-e-idolatria-o-retorno-as-origens-italianas-nos-ultimos-anos-de-vida-de-raul-randon-10803849.html

So, anyway the immigration thrived, and Brazilians, Italians, Germans etc. have done a good work in developing some areas: http://www.economist.com/news/americas/21710848-regions-luck-starts-climate-and-geography-brazils-three-southern-states-escape

Interesting this story of yours. An additional difficulty your family faced apparently was this cultural "isolation", while in my area at least the Italians were almost completely surrounded by... Italians. :) I believe this fact softened a bit their way.

Thanks for the beautiful song. Really touching, and probably even more for those who experienced a migration to a distant place. You usually post some nice and interesting videos, btw. For example, I showed the trallalero for my father and the tammuriata for my mother. They liked them. My mother even shared it with the family. :)

Thanks, Regio. I'm glad you and your family enjoyed them. :)

Yes, our adjustment to America was made much harder by the fact that we weren't surrounded by "Italians". We weren't even surrounded by "Italian-Americans". There were Italian descendants in the industrial town to which we migrated, but by the time we arrived, these people were third and even fourth generation Italians. If they spoke the language at all, it was their own dialect from Napoli or Reggio Calabria or Palermo, which was unintelligible to us. (The only Northern Italians I knew growing up were the members of my father's family, and the people at the "Parmigiano" club in Astoria, Queens, to which we drove a couple of times a year for events, and later, for some ill fated attempts to find me a husband among "our" kind of Italians. :) Most only had a smattering of it anyway.

Their food was different too. Even the Italy they knew from their grandparents' stories was a totally different Italy from ours. It no longer existed. It was surprising how little they actually knew of Italian culture and history, and that they didn't speak standard Italian. Then, it wasn't like New York City or Philadelphia or even Boston, where actual heavily "Italian" neighborhoods still existed and in fact still exist in part today. Everyone was scattered around, many had intermarried, etc. It also was a much bigger production in those days to stay in contact with family from home. My mother, and I, missed family desperately. Her father died suddenly of a stroke. When they finally let her know she screamed and fell to her knees in the kitchen. I still have it all in my head to this day.

All of this made it extremely difficult for my mother, and for me, because I was older and felt so attached to "home", and family, and friends. The very sights and smells here were so foreign, especially for my mother, who came from the Italian Riviera. Years later, my husband and I took my parents on a trip to California. When we got to Santa Barbara, and she saw the road hugging the sea, the palm trees, the fig trees, smelled the wild rosemary, and wild thyme and the flowers, she teared up. Why couldn't we have come here, she said. She had no idea America had a place like that. Not that the northeast isn't beautiful, but it's so very different.

La Spezia:
http://www.apuania.it/piccolomondo/spezia.jpg

Lungomare:
https://www.liguriaplus.com/thq-gallery/laspezia1389083434/la-spezia_dscf2066.jpg


Santa Barbara:
https://media.cntraveler.com/photos/594d2af8429db7797496b12a/4:3/w_480,c_limit/GettyImages-486896097.jpg


http://jennamorrissey.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/los-angeles-california-31-1024x768.jpg

Anyway, yes, my paternal grandparents went to the U.S. during the early migrations. My nonno started a logging company in Pennsylvania, where they had seven children. When he had made enough money he took them all back to Italy. It was all for nought. Instead of investing in good farmland near Sarzana in the plain, where he could have made an even bigger fortune, he bought apartment buildings and a restaurant and store. They didn't make the money he hoped. Then life became very difficult under the fascists, and slowly the much older children, who were American citizens, went back to the U.S. They had reverse homesickness. :) My father was the last holdout. A real Italian patriot, he didn't want to go, especially as things were finally starting to turn around. My grandmother literally forced him.

Oh well, it worked out in the long run. He became very successful, even though he was in his thirties when he arrived, with not one word of English, but it wasn't easy. Even my mother adjusted in time. She liked the convenience of life here, and the lack of the stultifying bureaucracy. Life in Italy can be spectacular if you have a good position, but even then it's not always convenient. :)

Gash
22-03-19, 03:36
How much is an apartment to rent in Italy ?

Angela
22-03-19, 04:45
How much is an apartment to rent in Italy ?

Like anywhere else there's a wide variation depending on the town, the area, the size, the upkeep, etc.

Best thing to do is just google apartments in a particular town.

Angela
22-03-19, 05:55
Like anywhere else there's a wide variation depending on the town, the area, the size, the upkeep, etc.

Best thing to do is just google apartments in a particular town.

A lot of foreign young people stay in youth hostels until they figure it out.

Generally, anywhere you want to be is expensive, as it is all over the world. :) You also have to consider job opportunities. Won't matter if the place is really cheap if there's no work.

Gash
22-03-19, 09:22
A lot of foreign young people stay in youth hostels until they figure it out.

Generally, anywhere you want to be is expensive, as it is all over the world. :) You also have to consider job opportunities. Won't matter if the place is really cheap if there's no work.

What about investing in apartments / real estate or running your own business there ?

Salento
22-03-19, 14:46
What about investing in apartments / real estate or running your own business there ?

In your Country, go see a decent Financial Advisor to assess your situation (Consulente in Italian), and then ask to get you in contact with a decent Financial Planner.

(don’t skip these steps)

Regio X
22-03-19, 22:14
Thanks, Regio. I'm glad you and your family enjoyed them. :)

Yes, our adjustment to America was made much harder by the fact that we weren't surrounded by "Italians". We weren't even surrounded by "Italian-Americans". There were Italian descendants in the industrial town to which we migrated, but by the time we arrived, these people were third and even fourth generation Italians. If they spoke the language at all, it was their own dialect from Napoli or Reggio Calabria or Palermo, which was unintelligible to us. (The only Northern Italians I knew growing up were the members of my father's family, and the people at the "Parmigiano" club in Astoria, Queens, to which we drove a couple of times a year for events, and later, for some ill fated attempts to find me a husband among "our" kind of Italians. :) Most only had a smattering of it anyway.

Their food was different too. Even the Italy they knew from their grandparents' stories was a totally different Italy from ours. It no longer existed. It was surprising how little they actually knew of Italian culture and history, and that they didn't speak standard Italian. Then, it wasn't like New York City or Philadelphia or even Boston, where actual heavily "Italian" neighborhoods still existed and in fact still exist in part today. Everyone was scattered around, many had intermarried, etc. It also was a much bigger production in those days to stay in contact with family from home. My mother, and I, missed family desperately. Her father died suddenly of a stroke. When they finally let her know she screamed and fell to her knees in the kitchen. I still have it all in my head to this day.

All of this made it extremely difficult for my mother, and for me, because I was older and felt so attached to "home", and family, and friends. The very sights and smells here were so foreign, especially for my mother, who came from the Italian Riviera. Years later, my husband and I took my parents on a trip to California. When we got to Santa Barbara, and she saw the road hugging the sea, the palm trees, the fig trees, smelled the wild rosemary, and wild thyme and the flowers, she teared up. Why couldn't we have come here, she said. She had no idea America had a place like that. Not that the northeast isn't beautiful, but it's so very different.

La Spezia:
http://www.apuania.it/piccolomondo/spezia.jpg

Lungomare:
https://www.liguriaplus.com/thq-gallery/laspezia1389083434/la-spezia_dscf2066.jpg


Santa Barbara:
https://media.cntraveler.com/photos/594d2af8429db7797496b12a/4:3/w_480,c_limit/GettyImages-486896097.jpg


http://jennamorrissey.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/los-angeles-california-31-1024x768.jpg

Anyway, yes, my paternal grandparents went to the U.S. during the early migrations. My nonno started a logging company in Pennsylvania, where they had seven children. When he had made enough money he took them all back to Italy. It was all for nought. Instead of investing in good farmland near Sarzana in the plain, where he could have made an even bigger fortune, he bought apartment buildings and a restaurant and store. They didn't make the money he hoped. Then life became very difficult under the fascists, and slowly the much older children, who were American citizens, went back to the U.S. They had reverse homesickness. :) My father was the last holdout. A real Italian patriot, he didn't want to go, especially as things were finally starting to turn around. My grandmother literally forced him.

Oh well, it worked out in the long run. He became very successful, even though he was in his thirties when he arrived, with not one word of English, but it wasn't easy. Even my mother adjusted in time. She liked the convenience of life here, and the lack of the stultifying bureaucracy. Life in Italy can be spectacular if you have a good position, but even then it's not always convenient. :)Angela, wow! Quite a story, yours!

I can imagine how hard all the situation must have been for your family, and especially for your parents (young people usually adapt better), but I'm sure it also made you stronger.
I assume those days you haven't visited family in Italy from time to time? Probably it was not so easy as nowadays.

As for your paternal grandfather, I think he was very successful then, even if he hasn't made all the money he hoped. And your grandmother contradicted the famous music, yes? This is Valdir Anzolin (AFAIK he and my mother share two great-grandparents - those from Belluno):

https://youtu.be/F2mFWBp7mRI

"Cento lire me te le do
Ma in America no no no" :)
Anyway, "le parole di ogni mamma dicon sempre la verità", so she was right after all (in forcing your father). ;)
Jokings apart, I can imagine how difficult it was for him.

Now you posted these pictures together, yeah, Santa Barbara does have this "aura" from riviera. But a real aura, not that one from haplogroups. Lol
(Hey, by any chance did you eat good artichokes in there?) :)
Well, I know what you mean, 'cause the geography of South Brazil also helped immigrants in their adaptation, admittedly, and I'm sure that part of California would have helped your mom as well.
Btw, I confess I prefer cold, cloudy and humid weather, and no, I'm not depressive. :) It's just that I'm somewhat sensible to strong light, and I'm absolutely hot-natured. I can stand dry weather, but not the heat, that's why I guess I'd like more the climate from Santa Barbara than the Riviera's, or at least the summer. But of course, climate is not the whole opera. :)

The fact those "Italians" didn't know Italian history doesn't surprise me. I'm sure most of our "Italians" didn't - and don't - know it very well, and this is true for the immigrants themselves, who generally told stories just about their own specific locations and way of life, it seems. In fact, I'd guess that even in Italy many people didn't know Italian history - at least till some time ago; now virtually everybody go to school -, as in Brazil many people don't know even the basic of Brazilian history.
But it really surprised me that "outdated" comment of my grandfather, who still thought Italy was poor (probably referring to the Italy of his father, i.e., Padova from the 1870s/80s), in consonance to what you just related. Plus, in 1990s he still spoke "fiorini" rather than the name of the Brazilian currency. Funny! :)
Also similarly to what you said, there were different dialects in S. Brazil, and not all "oriundi" were able to communicate properly with each other, especially in the old times, before the "Talian" emerged. My mother told me she didn't unserstand well what the neighbors cremonesi used to say, when she lived in the country. That's decades after the immigrarion period!
Yet, a difference between the immigration to South Brazil and to other places was that, while in USA, for instance, those who were born there knew how to speak English, there were many people born in South Brazil (mainly from the first generation, but not only) who didn't know how to speak Portuguese well, or didn't speak it at all, due to isolation. My father has old cousins in the country whose first language is still the Talian. That's in 2019!
And not just Italians, btw. I dated a German descendant some years ago, and I remember her paternal grandmother also spoke Portuguese very baddly - with an enormous accent -; her first language was the Hunsrückisch. And that's more than 150 years after the immigration of her German folks. Just amazing! Now, certainly, cases like these are becoming rare, whereas they were relatively common till some few decades ago. Anyway, it's an interesting and somewhat uncommon feature of my area.

TardisBlue
23-03-19, 00:13
deleted - deleted

Angela
23-03-19, 01:35
Angela, wow! Quite a story, yours!

I can imagine how hard all the situation must have been for your family, and especially for your parents (young people usually adapt better), but I'm sure it also made you stronger.
I assume those days you haven't visited family in Italy from time to time? Probably it was not so easy as nowadays.

As for your paternal grandfather, I think he was very successful then, even if he hasn't made all the money he hoped. And your grandmother contradicted the famous music, yes? This is Valdir Anzolin (AFAIK he and my mother share two great-grandparents - those from Belluno):

https://youtu.be/F2mFWBp7mRI

"Cento lire me te le do
Ma in America no no no" :)
Anyway, "le parole di ogni mamma dicon sempre la verità", so she was right after all (in forcing your father). ;)
Jokings apart, I can imagine how difficult it was for him.

Now you posted these pictures together, yeah, Santa Barbara does have this "aura" from riviera. But a real aura, not that one from haplogroups. Lol
(Hey, by any chance did you eat good artichokes in there?) :)
Well, I know what you mean, 'cause the geography of South Brazil also helped immigrants in their adaptation, admittedly, and I'm sure that part of California would have helped your mom as well.
Btw, I confess I prefer cold, cloudy and humid weather, and no, I'm not depressive. :) It's just that I'm somewhat sensible to strong light, and I'm absolutely hot-natured. I can stand dry weather, but not the heat, that's why I guess I'd like more the climate from Santa Barbara than the Riviera's, or at least the summer. But of course, climate is not the whole opera. :)

The fact those "Italians" didn't know Italian history doesn't surprise me. I'm sure most of our "Italians" didn't - and don't - know it very well, and this is true for the immigrants themselves, who generally told stories just about their own specific locations and way of life, it seems. In fact, I'd guess that even in Italy many people didn't know Italian history - at least till some time ago; now virtually everybody go to school -, as in Brazil many people don't know even the basic of Brazilian history.
But it really surprised me that "outdated" comment of my grandfather, who still thought Italy was poor (probably referring to the Italy of his father, i.e., Padova from the 1870s/80s), in consonance to what you just related. Plus, in 1990s he still spoke "fiorini" rather than the name of the Brazilian currency. Funny! :)
Also similarly to what you said, there were different dialects in S. Brazil, and not all "oriundi" were able to communicate properly with each other, especially in the old times, before the "Talian" emerged. My mother told me she didn't unserstand well what the neighbors cremonesi used to say, when she lived in the country. That's decades after the immigrarion period!
Yet, a difference between the immigration to South Brazil and to other places was that, while in USA, for instance, those who were born there knew how to speak English, there were many people born in South Brazil (mainly from the first generation, but not only) who didn't know how to speak Portuguese well, or didn't speak it at all, due to isolation. My father has old cousins in the country whose first language is still the Talian. That's in 2019!
And not just Italians, btw. I dated a German descendant some years ago, and I remember her paternal grandmother also spoke Portuguese very baddly - with an enormous accent -; her first language was the Hunsrückisch. And that's more than 150 years after the immigration of her German folks. Just amazing! Now, certainly, cases like these are becoming rare, whereas they were relatively common till some few decades ago. Anyway, it's an interesting and somewhat uncommon feature of my area.

No, it was different in the U.S. Even the children of the actual immigrants often understood Italian but didn't speak it very well. There was this mania to be "AMERICAN", and that meant eating hamburgers, playing baseball, speaking English. That's all it took, and you were completely accepted. My husband is third generation from southern Italy, but he doesn't speak a single word of Italian. All of his cousins married out except for him. When his grandmother met me she almost fell to her knees in thanksgiving. :) I became her absolute favorite, and she would teach me all her Neapolitan recipes, and tips on keeping your man happy. To wit, when it's about time for him to come home, change your apron, comb your hair and put on some lipstick. :). However, as she said to me, while her grandson was a very good boy, all the same I should tell him what she told her husband before they got married: your house and clothes will be clean, there'll be good food on the table, and I'll raise your children right, but if you ever raise a hand to me in anger, don't go to sleep after that because you'll never wake up! Trust me, she meant it. :) She was a pip! Oh, and no smoking in the house, and only one glass of wine with supper! She also believed in white magic, if you know what I mean, and so on Christmas Eve one year she taught me how to get rid of the mal occhio and unwanted guests and all sorts of other things. I didn't have the heart to tell her I didn't believe in any of it. I loved my grandparents and great aunts and uncles so much, and couldn't spend time with them the way I wanted, so I sort of adopted her. :)

Strange thing is that my husband, without speaking a word of Italian, is far more an Italian man in a very old-fashioned sense than my male cousins in Italy. I call it the diaspora effect. :) My Greek American friends tell me it's the same thing with Greeks. Italian Americans are less clannish than the Greeks though. Everyone intermarries. Well, almost everyone but me. A Southern Italian was about as "foreign" as I could imagine going. Oh, my husband even studied the "classics" in university: Latin, Greek literature, the history of the Greek and Latin cultures etc.to keep in touch with his "roots".

That reminds me. By the time of Mussolini in Italy people were not only taught Italian and Roman history(well, the version he approved), but were all instructed in "standard" Italian, i.e. Tuscan as modified by Manzoni etc., lingua toscana in bocca romana. At least that's the way it was everywhere north of Rome except perhaps for the Veneto. It was your patriotic duty to know those things. My father, as I said, without being at all fascistic, rather the opposite, was a great Italian patriot in the tradition of Mazzini, who was his hero. He was also an anti-cleric. So, we had portraits of Mazzini and Garibaldi on the wall, not the Pope. :) He knew a lot of Dante by heart and other Italian poets, mostly self taught, and the lyrics and melodies of all the Italian operas. Those were my lullabies. He was a brilliant man, my father, especially in mathematics, with many talents: a great voice and wonderful artistic skills on top of everything else. He apprenticed to a sculptor in Carrara for a while. If only Italy had the opportunities that people are afforded in America.

Actually, I went back to Italy more often than they did. My father could only go for two weeks at a time on visits. I went during the summers for much longer, even the summers during university. I studied there too. It was very important to me. Then, with work and children, it was two to three weeks at a time maximum. Now, I can call my own shots and go for longer. I still plan on retiring there for five or six months a year. The mistake I made was in not speaking to my children only in Italian. I did some of the time, but not always, so although they can understand a lot they're not fluent. It was difficult because it left my husband out if we all spoke Italian, and I was uncomfortable with that, as was he. I joke sometimes and say that when I'm old and doddering and have dementia my husband won't understand a word I'm saying, and neither will the nurses.

Speaking of the language, it was indeed difficult to communicate with some of the old Italian people here in the U.S., and their children only knew a smattering of dialect as well. In Italy, again because of Mussolini it was important to speak standard Italian. My father was manic about it. He spoke it beautifully and he wanted that for me too. He went to the extent of forbidding anyone from speaking even the Lunigiana dialect or his own Parma dialect in front of me. Then he'd teach me some verses and make me show off my "pure" Italian. Yes, he'd have me sing too, in my puffy party dress and white lace topped socks and black Mary Janes. Just like the movies. :) My "American" cousin told me he thought I was the Virgin Mary when I came from Italy, a Virgin Mary with a gold cross necklace and little golden drop earings in my ears. You can imagine how I went over with the jeans and sneaker set at my school. :) The nuns thought so too. I was the Virgin in every May Day parade and pageant I can remember.

Yes, great artichokes in California. Have you been there? I think Castro is still the artichoke capital of the world. Every spring I get a bag shipped to me of the tiny, tender ones, and fry them Jewish style and make a pasta with the rest. The restaurants in California can be very good, and they're very "Mediterranean". In one in Monterrey, which we adored, they served small ones as gratis appetizers. The self-important waiter started to tell us how to eat them. My father interrupted and said, young man, I was eating artichokes before you were born. :) Outside of a restaurant my father saw a huge fig tree behind the restaurant. It was groaning with the weight of the figs, and the floor was littered with them. He went in and asked the owner if he could pick some. The owner was glad to get rid of the excess. He should have been preserving them, of course. My Dad still wore those caps that older Italian men wore. He filled it with figs. All these "Americans" gathered round asking what they were and how to eat them! I think he filled that cap five times.

I have my father's genes for cold weather, and quite enjoy winter, but my mother was a Mediterranean through and through. She detested the cold and liked nothing better than to curl up and fall asleep in the sun. Meanwhile my father and I would be under the trees because we burned so badly. Fwiw, the climate in Santa Barbara is very like the climate in Liguria, imo. It's cool and pretty rainy in winter, and hot and pretty dry in the summer. I can't abide humidity, and neither could my father. They're mountain people his family, having lived for more than 500 years up in the Apennines, still cool in the summers, and snow eight months a year it sometimes seems. No offense to anyone from the Po plain, but I would not ever choose to live there, not even in Parma itself. It's cold and wet in the winter and brutally hot and humid in the summer. Firenze, one of my favorite cities, has an unfortunate climate as well imo.

My grandmother, like all Italian mothers and grandmothers, wanted to keep the family together. The seven oldest would never go back to Italy. My father was the last hold out. He was the toughest man I ever met, the strongest, but even he couldn't say no to his mother forever, and he was in his thirties. :) One last story: when my father got his first project for over a million dollars, he went out with his partners to celebrate after work, something he never did. His mother lived with us. Once it was past nine o'clock she paced and paced in her long white nightgown with her long white braid swishing around, muttering, just wait till he gets home, Menelich. I'll fix him. My mother begged her not to get upset, as she wasn't. When he came home, a little the worse for the wear, it must be said, she asked him what he thought he was doing. She didn't like the answer. She slapped him right across the face and said, "A decent man comes home to his wife and children at a decent time. I don't care how old you are (He was over 40), until the day I die I'm still your mother. I thought he'd have a heart attack, but he took it.

I always wonder who started the absurd idea that Italian women are weak.

Well I could go on reminiscing forever, but I don't want to bore you. It's been fun, though.

Regio X
24-03-19, 03:16
No, it was different in the U.S. Even the children of the actual immigrants often understood Italian but didn't speak it very well. There was this mania to be "AMERICAN", and that meant eating hamburgers, playing baseball, speaking English. That's all it took, and you were completely accepted. My husband is third generation from southern Italy, but he doesn't speak a single word of Italian. All of his cousins married out except for him. When his grandmother met me she almost fell to her knees in thanksgiving. :) I became her absolute favorite, and she would teach me all her Neapolitan recipes, and tips on keeping your man happy. To wit, when it's about time for him to come home, change your apron, comb your hair and put on some lipstick. :). However, as she said to me, while her grandson was a very good boy, all the same I should tell him what she told her husband before they got married: your house and clothes will be clean, there'll be good food on the table, and I'll raise your children right, but if you ever raise a hand to me in anger, don't go to sleep after that because you'll never wake up! Trust me, she meant it. :) She was a pip! Oh, and no smoking in the house, and only one glass of wine with supper! She also believed in white magic, if you know what I mean, and so on Christmas Eve one year she taught me how to get rid of the mal occhio and unwanted guests and all sorts of other things. I didn't have the heart to tell her I didn't believe in any of it. I loved my grandparents and great aunts and uncles so much, and couldn't spend time with them the way I wanted, so I sort of adopted her. :)

Strange thing is that my husband, without speaking a word of Italian, is far more an Italian man in a very old-fashioned sense than my male cousins in Italy. I call it the diaspora effect. :) My Greek American friends tell me it's the same thing with Greeks. Italian Americans are less clannish than the Greeks though. Everyone intermarries. Well, almost everyone but me. A Southern Italian was about as "foreign" as I could imagine going. Oh, my husband even studied the "classics" in university: Latin, Greek literature, the history of the Greek and Latin cultures etc.to keep in touch with his "roots".

That reminds me. By the time of Mussolini in Italy people were not only taught Italian and Roman history(well, the version he approved), but were all instructed in "standard" Italian, i.e. Tuscan as modified by Manzoni etc., lingua toscana in bocca romana. At least that's the way it was everywhere north of Rome except perhaps for the Veneto. It was your patriotic duty to know those things. My father, as I said, without being at all fascistic, rather the opposite, was a great Italian patriot in the tradition of Mazzini, who was his hero. He was also an anti-cleric. So, we had portraits of Mazzini and Garibaldi on the wall, not the Pope. :) He knew a lot of Dante by heart and other Italian poets, mostly self taught, and the lyrics and melodies of all the Italian operas. Those were my lullabies. He was a brilliant man, my father, especially in mathematics, with many talents: a great voice and wonderful artistic skills on top of everything else. He apprenticed to a sculptor in Carrara for a while. If only Italy had the opportunities that people are afforded in America.

Actually, I went back to Italy more often than they did. My father could only go for two weeks at a time on visits. I went during the summers for much longer, even the summers during university. I studied there too. It was very important to me. Then, with work and children, it was two to three weeks at a time maximum. Now, I can call my own shots and go for longer. I still plan on retiring there for five or six months a year. The mistake I made was in not speaking to my children only in Italian. I did some of the time, but not always, so although they can understand a lot they're not fluent. It was difficult because it left my husband out if we all spoke Italian, and I was uncomfortable with that, as was he. I joke sometimes and say that when I'm old and doddering and have dementia my husband won't understand a word I'm saying, and neither will the nurses.

Speaking of the language, it was indeed difficult to communicate with some of the old Italian people here in the U.S., and their children only knew a smattering of dialect as well. In Italy, again because of Mussolini it was important to speak standard Italian. My father was manic about it. He spoke it beautifully and he wanted that for me too. He went to the extent of forbidding anyone from speaking even the Lunigiana dialect or his own Parma dialect in front of me. Then he'd teach me some verses and make me show off my "pure" Italian. Yes, he'd have me sing too, in my puffy party dress and white lace topped socks and black Mary Janes. Just like the movies. :) My "American" cousin told me he thought I was the Virgin Mary when I came from Italy, a Virgin Mary with a gold cross necklace and little golden drop earings in my ears. You can imagine how I went over with the jeans and sneaker set at my school. :) The nuns thought so too. I was the Virgin in every May Day parade and pageant I can remember.

Yes, great artichokes in California. Have you been there? I think Castro is still the artichoke capital of the world. Every spring I get a bag shipped to me of the tiny, tender ones, and fry them Jewish style and make a pasta with the rest. The restaurants in California can be very good, and they're very "Mediterranean". In one in Monterrey, which we adored, they served small ones as gratis appetizers. The self-important waiter started to tell us how to eat them. My father interrupted and said, young man, I was eating artichokes before you were born. :) Outside of a restaurant my father saw a huge fig tree behind the restaurant. It was groaning with the weight of the figs, and the floor was littered with them. He went in and asked the owner if he could pick some. The owner was glad to get rid of the excess. He should have been preserving them, of course. My Dad still wore those caps that older Italian men wore. He filled it with figs. All these "Americans" gathered round asking what they were and how to eat them! I think he filled that cap five times.

I have my father's genes for cold weather, and quite enjoy winter, but my mother was a Mediterranean through and through. She detested the cold and liked nothing better than to curl up and fall asleep in the sun. Meanwhile my father and I would be under the trees because we burned so badly. Fwiw, the climate in Santa Barbara is very like the climate in Liguria, imo. It's cool and pretty rainy in winter, and hot and pretty dry in the summer. I can't abide humidity, and neither could my father. They're mountain people his family, having lived for more than 500 years up in the Apennines, still cool in the summers, and snow eight months a year it sometimes seems. No offense to anyone from the Po plain, but I would not ever choose to live there, not even in Parma itself. It's cold and wet in the winter and brutally hot and humid in the summer. Firenze, one of my favorite cities, has an unfortunate climate as well imo.

My grandmother, like all Italian mothers and grandmothers, wanted to keep the family together. The seven oldest would never go back to Italy. My father was the last hold out. He was the toughest man I ever met, the strongest, but even he couldn't say no to his mother forever, and he was in his thirties. :) One last story: when my father got his first project for over a million dollars, he went out with his partners to celebrate after work, something he never did. His mother lived with us. Once it was past nine o'clock she paced and paced in her long white nightgown with her long white braid swishing around, muttering, just wait till he gets home, Menelich. I'll fix him. My mother begged her not to get upset, as she wasn't. When he came home, a little the worse for the wear, it must be said, she asked him what he thought he was doing. She didn't like the answer. She slapped him right across the face and said, "A decent man comes home to his wife and children at a decent time. I don't care how old you are (He was over 40), until the day I die I'm still your mother. I thought he'd have a heart attack, but he took it.

I always wonder who started the absurd idea that Italian women are weak.

Well I could go on reminiscing forever, but I don't want to bore you. It's been fun, though.Not at all. I'm reading your stories with great interest. I just loved your husband's grandmother, btw, and I must say your father somewhat looks like mine, in several aspects. :)
I myself wish I could write more, but I usually have a hard time doing it in English.

I definetely identify with somethings you related, as you'll see further up.

I couldn't eat artichokes in California, unfortunately. Probably you don't remember, but you told me about them at the end of 2015 in the old 23andMe forum. I asked tips for my trip in there, and you gave me some, including of wineries in the Napa area, one of my destinations. Thanks again! :)
Yeah, Po Valley may be very hot. Indeed, my eldest brother was choosing a place to visit with my parents in next July. He gave up the Veneto due to the possible heat, and decided to go to Canada with them.
Btw, these east ocean coasts tend do have milder summers (and winters), in comparison to west coasts in similar latitudes. See Vancouver, for example. Anyway, California coast has a relatively mild climate. The averages low and high in Santa Barbara in the hottest month are 15.8 and 24.4, respectively, and they're associated to dryness (Riviera is also somewhat dry in summer, but I guess Santa Barbara is even drier), meaning even less heat index, and "humidex" (if you're Canadian). Averages from latitude 34°! Check out the averages from, say, Wilmington, in opposition. But I know the temperatures may be very high also in Santa Barbara, occasionally.
I get burned in the sun too, however, my problem is more with the light itself. It really disturbs my eyes - certainly much more than average - and causes me headache and some prostration. Sunglasses are mandatory. :)

Yeah, also in Brazil the Italian descendants were stimulated to speak just in Portuguese, including by the government - forcibly - during the World War II mainly, but also by some parents. There were those parents who even prohibited the kids to speak "Italian" at home. That's not necessarily because in the past it was associated to, say, low status(?), or simply no study, but also because they wanted them to integrate. Some were even ashamed to speak. Things changed later, which imo was good. The language does have cultural importance, and it's part of our history. Still, my own (close) family never bother too much in learning what they call(ed) "the dialect", je je je. My mother used to say Talian was making the learning of Italian difficult. My father doesn't mix them up, but he was not an enthusiast of the Talian. He respected it a lot, but certainly preferred Italian, as my siblings - oblivious to Talian. One of them was (and probably still is) a great fan of Verdi, then imagine! ;) https://youtu.be/0upXYbw-gBQ
In fact, he's a composer himself (he does it as hobby), and his first opera, still to be premiered this year, is in Italian. In family, I (the youngest) am the one who give Talian lots of value, even if I don't speak it very well, and genealogy itself*. I mean, I understand your father, some of my own grandparents and the political purposes of the past, but times changed. Can you imagine,say, Naples without its linguistic particularities, for example? They're part of its "soul". :) Italian should be learned by all Italians, obviously, but there is nothing wrong in "keeping" regional languages. Well, I guess I convinced my parents of the importance of Talian anyway. :)
*People have "some" interest in genealogy, you know. More, or less, but they have. I always had much more interest on it though, than my siblings and people in general. There is this old video in which I show up still as a little child proposing a toast for a certain great-grandfather, on occasion of some holiday. They looked at me as they were saying: wtf? Lol Those times I already wanted to know who my 2nd great-grandparents were, and part of their stories. I remember we had just three or four names from this specific generation. A bit more than ten years ago, I was designated to find the exact birth place of my father's paternal grandfather (we knew just the province), after a lawer failed in the task. The purpose was the dual citizenship. Then I figured out that the last name changed in Brazil - hence the initial difficulty -, and also the place of origin. Anyway, I was already in the mood, and started to build what became a huge tree. Today I'm "the guy who knows about the family". Lol As for DNA, I tested my parents already, and now I'm going to test a maternal uncle. :)
Btw, my father-in-law is a typical Brazilian, from a Central area in the country, but my mother-in-law is also Northeast Italian in ancestry. However, she descends from Italians who settled in Espirito Santo, more to the North. There was no big isolation in there, and they integrated much quicker. To exemplify how the "side effect" of the isolation in South Brazil caused the preservation of the language, see that my mother-in-law, granddaughter of Italians in paternal side and great-granddaughter in maternal, doesn't speak a single word of Talian or related language. In fact, I accidentaly noticed she did know one, but she didn't know it was Venetian. I told her. :) Still, I do know some few people in Espirito Santo speak Talian - or similar language.
Finally: Yes, most Venetians didn't speak Italian at the time of the immigrarion (I guess more than 90%), but there were exceptions even between immigrants. My father's maternal grandfather was one of them, and apparently he did know how to speak it more or less. It's at least what a letter suggests (to my grandparents, who were living in a different city, so I assume my grandmother spoke it as well). Tell me if I'm wrong (I'll send it to you through PM), but it doesn't seem to me a pure Venetian.

I believe in the "diaspora effect". :) I'd risk to say an akin phenomenom may be observed not just among descendants, but among the migrants themselves, even if the migration happens regionally (at least in countries with lots of diversity, like Brazil and Italy themselves). It happened with me. Sometimes you have to leave your place to value certain things and reinforce identity.
My parents and kids (including me, naturally) left our land time ago. Y-DNA's fault. ;) At the beginning, some of us wanted to come back, but they ended up adapting after all. I say "they" because I myself never adapted completely. When I reached the age, I came back to my land and lived there several years. Then your grandmother came, I mean, my mother, and said: come here, let's keep all together. :) Obviously she convinced me, but you know... I also loved the place where I was born, as your father. It was very difficult for me. Sometimes I asked myself if it worthed, even loving my family above all. I mean, today is so easy to travel that I could have had both, I guess...

ED: correction.
ED2: I couldn't send the PM. It says you exceeded your quota.

Angela
24-03-19, 18:22
Yes, WWII had a profound impact on Italian Americans too. People forget that a lot of Italians and Germans who hadn't gotten citizenship were "interned". It was even more important to jettison things that made one "foreign", and that included speaking a "foreign" language. Some even changed their names. I've been told that a lot of Muellers became Millers, for example.

Nonna Anna (really Marianna), was an extraordinary woman. The first time I went to dinner at their home, and this white haired Italian grandmother wearing a flowery apron and orthopedic shoes whipped out a cigarette and lighter I almost fell off the chair. :) She had picked up the habit from her children. She also had a very, well, I think I have to call it "bawdy" sense of humor. I had never heard a woman curse. My mother spoke like a Mother Superior in a convent, and my grandmother and aunts and great-aunts were also very restrained. You know what I mean: certain things were only spoken of in whispers and among adult women. Well, not Anna. Sometimes I blushed so hard I looked like a tomato. I would also get told regularly to speak up, per l'amor' di dio, when I wanted something. I couldn't be heard over the noise they made. :) To me, it seemed like they were fighting, but they weren't, although they could fight, alright.

She took her children back to see her husband's family once. It didn't go well. Someone told her brother in law that she was seen talking to another returned Italian American at the post office, a man, horror of horrors. The brother in law started yelling at her at dinner so she took the bowl of spaghetti she was eating and threw it right in his face. She told him he wasn't her husband, and he had no right to question her! The local Italian priest in America who got on her "wrong" side also got short shrift. Sometimes she let her boys sleep in on a Saturday morning instead of going for religious instruction. When he came to bless the house for Easter one year and reprimanded her she took her broom and swept him out of the house. They were the only Italian family who didn't go to the "Italian" church. She seemed to me the very personification of a Neapolitan woman: warm, generous, direct, feisty and hot tempered.

Part of my father's insistence on speaking "Italian" was tied up with his politics, his view of Italy, and the place it should hold in the world. He wanted Italy and Italians to be strong, to no longer be the victim(s) of foreign governments, and to ensure that he believed that Italy had to be united against the outside world, and that necessitated a common language. A divided people who couldn't even understand one another properly would always be kicked around by the rest of the world. As I said above, he idolized Mazzini, except in that he wasn't as religious as Mazzini, although Mazzini too was an anti-cleric. Yes, the two things can go together. :)


It was also tied up with his love of Italian literature. Reading "I Promessi Sposi" wasn't the chore for him that it is for most Italian school children, and learning whole passages of Dante and Petrarca was a delight.

Part of it was also very practical, however. "Dialect" speakers were seen as uneducated, poor, lower class, in our part of Italy. If you wanted a good job, preferment, it was important to "sound" a certain way. It was always the same in England. Your "language" told people everything they needed to know about you and your status. There has been some movement in trying to recognize the "old" dialects in my area, but it won't really work. There are too many southern Italians who migrated there, not to mention people from further afield lately. People have to have a common language for everything to function. Even in the south things have changed. I know older Sicilian Americans, who do speak their parents' "dialect", who go to Sicily and find that even the Sicilian dialect has changed and they're not perfectly understood. The advent of television changed everything. Standard Italian has had a big influence on the Sicilian language, and there's no going back. Don't misunderstand though, "core" Neapolitans of a certain type still speak a dialect. When the movie "Gomorrah" was released, it had subtitles in "Italian", because people in other parts of Italy would not be able to understand the dialect. Up until a few decades ago there were still a substantial number of Genovesi who spoke or at least understood "Zenese". See the following by our poet laureate.

Creuza de ma'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJqHV-lo0oE

I'm not the geneaologist you are. My father's geneaology was done by an uncle working in the churches of their villages in the Apennines. His people can be traced back to the mid 1500s with the Council of Trent and there are scattered records even further back. I don't doubt that they were there from the early Middle Ages, although there were periodic arrivals of men fleeing "uncomfortable" situations in other parts of Italy. Those villages, only loosely supervised by a very distant bishop, were a perfect place for men who didn't want to answer to local lords and robber barons. One of his ancestors was supposedly a "pirate", probably a privateer, in Rimini. My father's grandparents still had a gold basin and candlesticks from him. In another thread I showed their coat of arms over the village gate and at the door of the old family house. My mother's lines are spottier because of damage to archives during the war, but again a member of her family did the family tree. I filled in what I could but I'm not that dedicated to it. Part of that is because of what I know of genetics. Go back to your great, great grandparents and you actually start carrying the dna of only a few of them.

What I am fixated on and always have been is the "people" of my ancestral areas, most of whom are my "cousins" to one degree or another, in particular my mother's areas, where I was born and lived, although also my father's, where I know we're all very closely related to one another. I have studied their history, their culture, their food, their sufferings, for decades. I wanted to know what "made" them (us), how they came to be, how they came to have the character I so love. That led me to population genetics eventually. Most of my family think I'm mad. I tried to explain all of this to my adored great aunt, but after listening intently she just waved her hand to encompass the whole terrain and said, "but we've always been right here". :) To some degree, for at least a thousand years, she was correct.

Believe me, I've sometimes wondered if my father did the right thing. In America I feel very Italian, and in Italy very American. It's as if I'm suspended between the two places, hovering over the Atlantic ocean
somewhere. It's not always comfortable.

I'm going to be presumptious and express a personal opinion about what you said. You were right to join your family. It's the only thing that matters. I've seen it over and over again with old people. When the end draws near, money, position, status, none of it matters. The only thing that matters is the people we have loved and how we treated them. Keep them close.

Regio X
27-03-19, 02:20
Yes, WWII had a profound impact on Italian Americans too. People forget that a lot of Italians and Germans who hadn't gotten citizenship were "interned". It was even more important to jettison things that made one "foreign", and that included speaking a "foreign" language. Some even changed their names. I've been told that a lot of Muellers became Millers, for example.
Nonna Anna (really Marianna), was an extraordinary woman. The first time I went to dinner at their home, and this white haired Italian grandmother wearing a flowery apron and orthopedic shoes whipped out a cigarette and lighter I almost fell off the chair. :) She had picked up the habit from her children. She also had a very, well, I think I have to call it "bawdy" sense of humor. I had never heard a woman curse. My mother spoke like a Mother Superior in a convent, and my grandmother and aunts and great-aunts were also very restrained. You know what I mean: certain things were only spoken of in whispers and among adult women. Well, not Anna. Sometimes I blushed so hard I looked like a tomato. I would also get told regularly to speak up, per l'amor' di dio, when I wanted something. I couldn't be heard over the noise they made. :) To me, it seemed like they were fighting, but they weren't, although they could fight, alright.
She took her children back to see her husband's family once. It didn't go well. Someone told her brother in law that she was seen talking to another returned Italian American at the post office, a man, horror of horrors. The brother in law started yelling at her at dinner so she took the bowl of spaghetti she was eating and threw it right in his face. She told him he wasn't her husband, and he had no right to question her! The local Italian priest in America who got on her "wrong" side also got short shrift. Sometimes she let her boys sleep in on a Saturday morning instead of going for religious instruction. When he came to bless the house for Easter one year and reprimanded her she took her broom and swept him out of the house. They were the only Italian family who didn't go to the "Italian" church. She seemed to me the very personification of a Neapolitan woman: warm, generous, direct, feisty and hot tempered.
Part of my father's insistence on speaking "Italian" was tied up with his politics, his view of Italy, and the place it should hold in the world. He wanted Italy and Italians to be strong, to no longer be the victim(s) of foreign governments, and to ensure that he believed that Italy had to be united against the outside world, and that necessitated a common language. A divided people who couldn't even understand one another properly would always be kicked around by the rest of the world. As I said above, he idolized Mazzini, except in that he wasn't as religious as Mazzini, although Mazzini too was an anti-cleric. Yes, the two things can go together. :)
It was also tied up with his love of Italian literature. Reading "I Promessi Sposi" wasn't the chore for him that it is for most Italian school children, and learning whole passages of Dante and Petrarca was a delight.
Part of it was also very practical, however. "Dialect" speakers were seen as uneducated, poor, lower class, in our part of Italy. If you wanted a good job, preferment, it was important to "sound" a certain way. It was always the same in England. Your "language" told people everything they needed to know about you and your status. There has been some movement in trying to recognize the "old" dialects in my area, but it won't really work. There are too many southern Italians who migrated there, not to mention people from further afield lately. People have to have a common language for everything to function. Even in the south things have changed. I know older Sicilian Americans, who do speak their parents' "dialect", who go to Sicily and find that even the Sicilian dialect has changed and they're not perfectly understood. The advent of television changed everything. Standard Italian has had a big influence on the Sicilian language, and there's no going back. Don't misunderstand though, "core" Neapolitans of a certain type still speak a dialect. When the movie "Gomorrah" was released, it had subtitles in "Italian", because people in other parts of Italy would not be able to understand the dialect. Up until a few decades ago there were still a substantial number of Genovesi who spoke or at least understood "Zenese". See the following by our poet laureate.
Creuza de ma'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJqHV-lo0oE
I'm not the geneaologist you are. My father's geneaology was done by an uncle working in the churches of their villages in the Apennines. His people can be traced back to the mid 1500s with the Council of Trent and there are scattered records even further back. I don't doubt that they were there from the early Middle Ages, although there were periodic arrivals of men fleeing "uncomfortable" situations in other parts of Italy. Those villages, only loosely supervised by a very distant bishop, were a perfect place for men who didn't want to answer to local lords and robber barons. One of his ancestors was supposedly a "pirate", probably a privateer, in Rimini. My father's grandparents still had a gold basin and candlesticks from him. In another thread I showed their coat of arms over the village gate and at the door of the old family house. My mother's lines are spottier because of damage to archives during the war, but again a member of her family did the family tree. I filled in what I could but I'm not that dedicated to it. Part of that is because of what I know of genetics. Go back to your great, great grandparents and you actually start carrying the dna of only a few of them.
What I am fixated on and always have been is the "people" of my ancestral areas, most of whom are my "cousins" to one degree or another, in particular my mother's areas, where I was born and lived, although also my father's, where I know we're all very closely related to one another. I have studied their history, their culture, their food, their sufferings, for decades. I wanted to know what "made" them (us), how they came to be, how they came to have the character I so love. That led me to population genetics eventually. Most of my family think I'm mad. I tried to explain all of this to my adored great aunt, but after listening intently she just waved her hand to encompass the whole terrain and said, "but we've always been right here". :) To some degree, for at least a thousand years, she was correct.
Believe me, I've sometimes wondered if my father did the right thing. In America I feel very Italian, and in Italy very American. It's as if I'm suspended between the two places, hovering over the Atlantic ocean
somewhere. It's not always comfortable.
I'm going to be presumptious and express a personal opinion about what you said. You were right to join your family. It's the only thing that matters. I've seen it over and over again with old people. When the end draws near, money, position, status, none of it matters. The only thing that matters is the people we have loved and how we treated them. Keep them close.Sounds picturesque. :) I'm not PhD in South Italians, but the bravissima granny seems to correspond to the stereotype of a Neapolitan mamma, out of an Italian movie. I say it 'cause in fact I have never been in close contact with a typical Southern Italian family, so I have no reference beyond TV. Anyway, I wouldn't have imagined nothing too different from what you described, almost scenic.
Apparently it's impossible to get bored in a South Italian circle. :)

As for Italian language etc., it's really complicated, because the context would still include politics, apparently, and I'm not that tuned into it. So not sure what to say. Whilst I understand the purposes you mentioned, and don't disagree, I also believe a price was paid for the cause, culturally, but also concerning freedom. No problem; that was a different time, and that's history! Actions and reactions of political nature still contaminate the matter, though. Even so, I guess there is no need to "pay" it anymore, and in fact regional peculiarities make a country richer imo. I see languages as part of "cultural packages", and my fear is that the death of a language could inevitably correlate to the death of a whole package. Hope I'm wrong. Anyway, I'm for freedom, of course, especially in the individual level. At the end, people must be free to do what they want in this regard. If they don't care, due to, say, utilitarianism - or whatever reason -, ok. If they care, even if they are being just "romantic" - I must be one of them :) -, and there is a relevant demand for keeping it, then ok as well. In this last case, even government could help occasionally (through the representatives of the very people, of course). It happened in cities of South Brazil, for example, where Talian is taught in public schools for those who have interest. Meanwhile, some people don't even think about the matter, and again: nothing wrong.
In short, caring about a cultural heritage is good. That's positive, "affirmative". What I think is not acceptable at all is opportunism, racism, the despise to different cultures, be it for economical reasons, religious, you name it. That's negative. The two things must not be confused, because they are not necessarily associated to one another. I know you haven't said otherwise, btw.
Finally, despite what I just said, I'm aware that certain movements are just inevitable. Repeating history, many things we care about will eventually die (and languages can be one of them, sure). It's just a matter of time. But we're still alive, so... :)
Btw, wow!, Zenese seems pretty different. I don't get virtually anything of the music!

I'm also curious on people, and not just about my own, but especially about them, which is natural. The willing to know our own family would be part of the same mecanism. But names per se won't tell us too much about our family history, i agree. Anyway, researching was fun, so basically a hobby, but also somewhat educational for me, since it was possible to learn some things in the process. Apart the factoids themselves, as for example that one about an ancestor cimbro. :) The intellectual curiosity on family and people came early in my case, as you could notice, but I've never really feed my time with it till more recently.

Regarding to be with family, yeah, you must be right! Anyway, it already happened. Let's move on. :)
And hey!, you were not presumption. Be sure I sincerely appreciate your oppinion.

Regio X
19-04-19, 17:21
It's odd. I don't understand the men supposedly speaking Bergamesco all that well, but I understand both the nonna here and her interviewer quite well, and she's supposedly speaking a Veneto dialect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gASt0urMNDM
I saw this video years ago, and saved it. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tOdDgq82f0Angela, you're too kind for recognizing, but I guess I was screwing up your another thread. It's about Appennino, not Rio Grande do Sul. So I continue here. :)

The only portuguese word the nonna talked was "querido" (caro; dear). Well, in fact she didn't talk that much, and didn't build many sentences, while the interviewer - with a huge Brazilian accent btw - did very basic questions. Perhaps it explains why you got it better? In the scenic piece, on the other hand, there was a more fluent conversation. Anyway, that's a version almost 150 years old of "Venetian", or "Venezian", if you prefer, be it a dialect or a language (particularly, I'm not so worry about it). :)
A maternal uncle said he talked in Venetian to some actual Venetians in his trip to NE Italy much time ago, and that they said: "hey, you talk like my grandparents". :) Still, actual Venetians apparently understand well Talian, and vice-versa. See for example the video I posted previously on this thread, showing an actual Venetian girl interviewing a "Venetian" from South Brazil.

My godfather, a Luthier born in Spresiano-TV, used to say there were roughly two kind of "Venetians", referring to dialects/languages: the one from countryside, with all its variations, and the one more, say, "cult", comparatively less different from Italian (after all, Venezian would have been heavily influenced by Italian/Tuscan in ~1500s). He said he didn't mixed up Venezian and Italian, at all. But I remember he and my godmother - virtually a "saint" woman; may God have her -, from Treviso-TV, talked to each other in Italian, always, and never in Venezian.
He loved to visit my relatives in countryside and talk to them in (an adapted) "Italian".

As for that supposed bergamasc, well, I'm not sure what it is. I assume it's an actual (old) bergamasch (perhaps with some influence of Venetian and Portuguese), because I didn't understand almost anything. But I assure you it's not portuguese, despite some portuguese words poping up. :)

Nice music. La Bella Polenta is one of the "most popular" musics of my own folks, together with La Bella Violeta, Quel Mazzolin di Fiori, Merica Merica and others.


I do know that many were disappointed (the propaganda in Italy was exaggerated). Still, some immigrants, satisfied, did send letters to relatives in Italy stimulating migrations; my guess is that sometimes they were absolutely sincere, and other times, still with good intentions, they were possibly distracted or induced by the fact they simply missed their folks. There were also letters of regret. It depends. So, some were really satisfied, some were not exactly happy but didn't want to go back for some reason, and some did want to return, as a mother-in-law's great-grandmother, just for example.Check this video. It talks about those who were happy and those who were not:
https://youtu.be/WUHyIdeW5ZI

The situation must have been like this in Italy:
https://youtu.be/6-UfhwtOk2E

ah ah ah ah
Unfortunately the video missed the part the mafiosi give them some money before going away. :)

Joey37
19-04-19, 17:37
When my Nana was young, she said her grandparents-both born and raised in Sicily-spoke Greek, but I have been skeptical of that, given that the Greek speaking part of the island is in the east and they were from the west, near Palermo. I rather believe they spoke Albanian; the Arbereshe community of Piana degli Albanesi (which was once called Piana dei Greci, 'Plain of the Greeks') is quite near Palermo. Also my great-grandfather was rather tall for someone of Mediterranean descent, save for someone with Dinaric roots, like an Albanian. My Nana, though, is the stereotypical short Mediterranean woman, I love her, she thinks I'm tall, I'm 5'9".

Angela
19-04-19, 21:17
To my knowledge, the last Greek speaking areas in Sicily were in Siracusa and Trapani, but even there I think the "turn" came a couple of centuries ago.

Angela
19-04-19, 21:17
@Regio,
Yes, all the dialects have changed since the advent of television, in particular, which had a great "leveling" effect. Sicilian Americans also tell me that when they go to Sicily they are told that they speak the dialect of not just grandparents, but great-grandparents. :)

People don't realize it, but even Tuscans have dialects within themselves, and different rules of pronunciation. They don't all introduce that "h" sound, for example. For example, some do say "ubriaca", not "ubriaha". :)

Fiorentino doc. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyqSTujMXu4

This is a fun video with local speakers highlighting the different "dialects" or "languages" of Italy. As I found when listening to Regio's videos, I find Veneto quite understandable, as is Emiliano, of course. It may have been different in the past. In the map they show Emiliano in parts of the Lunigiana, and Tuscan in the rest. It's very locale specific. Pontremoli, imo, is much more Emilian, Zeri a bit Ligurian, and Fivizzano really Tuscan. Where I was born and raised, and where my father was raised as well, despite his roots and being born in Sarzana, there's more of an influence from Tuscany, of the Lucca and Carrara and Pisa variety, than there is of Liguria, despite it being literally just over the border, but not as much so as Fivizzano. If I didn't know it myself, I'd know it from the reaction I get in other parts of Italy. Attentive waiters or owners of restaurants often bring me, without my asking, Vin Santo and cantuccini after dinner, and I hear the maids saying "La Tosca". :) That's what my father's Emilian family called my mother when they'd go up the mountains to see them. I used to get a little annoyed, to be honest. Fwiw, when we're in the north they often don't think my husband is Italian, partly, I'm sure, because he speaks only in English, but it REALLY aggravates him. Turn about is fair play. They don't think I'm local in the south, either. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEEPyE-nR58

I basically sound like this, although in a lower register. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PtAFlkKs_k

Regio X
20-04-19, 22:53
@Angela
Thanks for the explanations on the languages of your area. It amazes me how each area, sometimes little, has its own distinctiveness. Also, political borders don't necessarily correspond to languages/dialects borders, as you described. It's like the area of Caneva-PN and Sacile-PN, for example, where a kind of Venetian is used, rather than Friulan.
Very interesting the work of Stefano R. Galli. Bravo! The video on languages and dialects is great too. The regional differences we know, including genetical, seems roughly correlate to some different languages/dialects, sometimes in a pronounced way.
So, you seem to speak the "standard"; right? The girl in the video reminded me how standard Italian is beautiful. Imo the most beautiful in the worId, I must say.
I still remember the first sentence in Italian I learned much, much time ago, with my godfather: "È libero questo posto per favore?" ah ah
I have ancestors from an area known by its Vin Santo as well. It's the Vin Santo di Fregona. :)

Regarding looking local... As I was saying - I guess you saw my comment before I deleted it, but no problem :) -, my father and brother were in Italy in 2013, in occasion of the 200 years of birth of Verdi and Wagner. The presentations were in Verona and Milano, if my memory serves. Anyway, they commented my father was seen as local, while my brother looked foreign. My father does seem Italian imo (if not Italy, then Balkans). They thought my brother came from North, probably distracted by some traits, unimportant in isolation (as height, very light eyes etc. etc.). I bet people like you would easily identify him as Italian. As I already said, I'm not knowledgeble on this, but he seems to belong to a "Dinaric" type, rather than to a Northern one, as per his skull shape, nose... Anyway...
My sis, on the other hand, must have the most Italian looking of family, and Italian even for those who don't understand too much about phenotypes. So she fits perhaps even in stereotypes. I still remember an event much time ago in Italian embassy... My mother, sis and I were seated there waiting the beginning of the event, and then an old Italian "mamma" came handing a schedule, looked to us, pointed to her and said: you ARE Italian. je je je


Check this video. It talks about those who were happy and those who were not:
https://youtu.be/WUHyIdeW5ZI

The situation must have been like this in Italy:
https://youtu.be/6-UfhwtOk2E

ah ah ah ah
Unfortunately the video missed the part the mafiosi give them some money before going away. :)
Funny also the part (Bud) mixed up Garibaldi and General Custer. ah ah
Fwiw, while Garibaldi, The Hero of Two Worlds, tried to unify Italy, in Brazil he tried the independence of Rio Grande do Sul. je je je Didn't work. Still, he's a regional "hero" there, as one of the three leaders of Farrapos' War (Guerra dos Farrapos), or Revolução Farroupilha (Farroupilha Revolution) - the longest of its kind in Brazilian soil -, together with Bento Gonçalves and David Canabarro, between 1835-1845 (so before Italian immigration). There are in Rio Grande do Sul cities with the names of these three generals, two of them heavily settled by North Italians, as Garibaldi-RS and Bento Gonçalves-RS. Just out of curiosity.


The musical tradition also inspired his soul. :) Verdi is a religion there, as Puccini is in neighboring Toscana. They love opera too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkzGOF3COYoI guess we were ruining the thread on dairy consumption and height, so here we go... :)

I agree, but I meant the culinary traditional inspired his belly. lol Just kidding! ;-) Love Pavarotti.

Watched the BBC video, Angela. Simply great!

As for the other video... Whenever I stay a while without listening Va Pensiero, when I do it again, I shiver. It's really touching, even coming from Andre Rieu. :) No offense. It's not bad, but while he plays an important role in popularizing classicals, I still prefer the traditional, by far. So it's your time to shive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1JkhNOcXGo
And this is for your moments of nostalgia, when missing Italy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHkri8ZUqOA :)

Still regarding the dairy consumption and height etc., here's the proof of the role of genetics on physical traits, ah ah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ey7-KlgD5g


Love coffee btw. Here the traditional is boiled, but I also drink espresso - generally Nespresso.To finish, I must say I loved the espresso and the capuccino from USA, but their boiled coffee sucks imo. Looks like dirty water, or tea at best.
10942

Cheers!

Angela
21-04-19, 02:44
@Angela
Thanks for the explanations on the languages of your area. It amazes me how each area, sometimes little, has its own distinctiveness. Also, political borders don't necessarily correspond to languages/dialects borders, as you described. It's like the area of Caneva-PN and Sacile-PN, for example, where a kind of Venetian is used, rather than Friulan.
Very interesting the work of Stefano R. Galli. Bravo! The video on languages and dialects is great too. The regional differences we know, including genetical, seems roughly correlate to some different languages/dialects, sometimes in a pronounced way.
So, you seem to speak the "standard"; right? The girl in the video reminded me how standard Italian is beautiful. Imo the most beautiful in the worId, I must say.
I still remember the first sentence in Italian I learned much, much time ago, with my godfather: "È libero questo posto per favore?" ah ah
I have ancestors from an area known by its Vin Santo as well. It's the Vin Santo di Fregona. :)

Regarding looking local... As I was saying - I guess you saw my comment before I deleted it, but no problem :) -, my father and brother were in Italy in 2013, in occasion of the 200 years of birth of Verdi and Wagner. The presentations were in Verona and Milano, if my memory serves. Anyway, they commented my father was seen as local, while my brother looked foreign. My father does seem Italian imo (if not Italy, then Balkans). They thought my brother came from North, probably distracted by some traits, unimportant in isolation (as height, very light eyes etc. etc.). I bet people like you would easily identify him as Italian. As I already said, I'm not knowledgeble on this, but he seems to belong to a "Dinaric" type, rather than to a Northern one, as per his skull shape, nose... Anyway...
My sis, on the other hand, must have the most Italian looking of family, and Italian even for those who don't understand too much about phenotypes. So she fits perhaps even in stereotypes. I still remember an event much time ago in Italian embassy... My mother, sis and I were seated there waiting the beginning of the event, and then an old Italian "mamma" came handing a schedule, looked to us, pointed to her and said: you ARE Italian. je je je


Funny also the part (Bud) mixed up Garibaldi and General Custer. ah ah
Fwiw, while Garibaldi, The Hero of Two Worlds, tried to unify Italy, in Brazil he tried the independence of Rio Grande do Sul. je je je Didn't work. Still, he's a regional "hero" there, as one of the three leaders of Farrapos' War (Guerra dos Farrapos), or Revolução Farroupilha (Farroupilha Revolution) - the longest of its kind in Brazilian soil -, together with Bento Gonçalves and David Canabarro, between 1835-1845 (so before Italian immigration). There are in Rio Grande do Sul cities with the names of these three generals, two of them heavily settled by North Italians, as Garibaldi-RS and Bento Gonçalves-RS. Just out of curiosity.

I guess we were ruining the thread on dairy consumption and height, so here we go... :)

I agree, but I meant the culinary traditional inspired his belly. lol Just kidding! ;-) Love Pavarotti.

Watched the BBC video, Angela. Simply great!

As for the other video... Whenever I stay a while without listening Va Pensiero, when I do it again, I shiver. It's really touching, even coming from Andre Rieu. :) No offense. It's not bad, but while he plays an important role in popularizing classicals, I still prefer the traditional, by far. So it's your time to shive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1JkhNOcXGo
And this is for your moments of nostalgia, when missing Italy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHkri8ZUqOA :)

Still regarding the dairy consumption and height etc., here's the proof of the role of genetics on physical traits, ah ah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ey7-KlgD5g

To finish, I must say I loved the espresso and the capuccino from USA, but their boiled coffee sucks imo. Looks like dirty water, or tea at best.
10942

Cheers!



Yes, I only speak standard Italian, like the young woman, and basically the same accent. I understand 90% of the Spezzino and the various Lunegianesi dialects and the mountain Pramzan of my paternal grandparents, but I can't speak them.

Partly because of my father's influence, but partly as the result of study in language classes here and in Italy, I'm a bit obsessive about Italian. I don't think there's a language in the world which can touch it for beauty. I love Italian poetry for that reason. I love to hear it declaimed aloud, especially by certain masters. I have a treasured series of CDs of Dante, and another one which is a collection of Italian poetry. (It's extremely difficult gramatically, however, so I'm always afraid of making a mistake. I found French and Spanish grammar much easier.)

The poet laureate of Liguria (The Cinque Terre) and winner of the Nobel Prize in literature.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2CXOu3V2Pc&list=PLW-G2e_QDKGqxA06_tPH-mEvbQvrXIA_Q&index=12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAuwvrRtjJE

La Pioggia nel Pineto-Gabriele D'Annunzio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OsUnxY5mgw

Se questo e' un uomo-Primo Levi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M3dpL4nj3Q&list=PLWrQTkYKQceByD6zRFdDOuoVfV7I8XTPc&index=9

A tour de force in beautiful Italian (albeit with a rather harsh Tuscan accent) by Roberto Benignini on the nature of poetry. There are English subtitles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo9RPtgxSoU

I could go on forever. :) That's the thing about obsessions.

The chef and the art historian did a whole series on the food and art of Italy called "Italy Unpacked". I didn't much like the one on Liguria, but some of them were very good. This is the one on the Veneto.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_Uq3SmydSI&t=78s

One of the best weeks of my life was the week I spent on my own in a convent guest house on the island of Giudecca.

I've seen an advertisement for a tour along the canals of all the Palladium houses. I'm sure it's spectacular.

Making pesto with pinoli. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJS9rIE1Uq4&list=PL4S_ehS1f_jha_8RQ9PJN2w5efmA0zD3b&index=12

I always get a bit teary when I hear Va Pensiero, but never more so than on this occasion. Tears and brividi...God bless Riccardo Muti for recognizing the emotion of the chorus and the audience, and dropping the professional stance for once and allowing not only an encore, but a participatory one. :)

It begins at 5:05 when someone shouts "Viva L'Italia" after the chorus had finished.

"Siamo in casa nostra...la facciamo tutti insieme...a tempo pero!" :) Properly broke my heart. If only my father could have heard it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPANwyaSlX4&t=525s

Sometimes I think it should be our anthem, but then I think of the struggle for a country, and I remember occasions like the following, and I think, no, leave it alone. We all know "Va Pensiero" and have it in our hearts anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNSz0_XJD4s

My Italian relatives say that American coffee tastes like dirty dishwater. :)

Regio X
21-04-19, 18:45
Yes, I only speak standard Italian, like the young woman, and basically the same accent. I understand 90% of the Spezzino and the various Lunegianesi dialects and the mountain Pramzan of my paternal grandparents, but I can't speak them.
Partly because of my father's influence, but partly as the result of study in language classes here and in Italy, I'm a bit obsessive about Italian. I don't think there's a language in the world which can touch it for beauty. I love Italian poetry for that reason. I love to hear it declaimed aloud, especially by certain masters. I have a treasured series of CDs of Dante, and another one which is a collection of Italian poetry. (It's extremely difficult gramatically, however, so I'm always afraid of making a mistake. I found French and Spanish grammar much easier.)
The poet laureate of Liguria (The Cinque Terre) and winner of the Nobel Prize in literature.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2CXOu3V2Pc&list=PLW-G2e_QDKGqxA06_tPH-mEvbQvrXIA_Q&index=12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAuwvrRtjJE
La Pioggia nel Pineto-Gabriele D'Annunzio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OsUnxY5mgw
Se questo e' un uomo-Primo Levi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M3dpL4nj3Q&list=PLWrQTkYKQceByD6zRFdDOuoVfV7I8XTPc&index=9
A tour de force in beautiful Italian (albeit with a rather harsh Tuscan accent) by Roberto Benignini on the nature of poetry. There are English subtitles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo9RPtgxSoU
I could go on forever. :) That's the thing about obsessions.
The chef and the art historian did a whole series on the food and art of Italy called "Italy Unpacked". I didn't much like the one on Liguria, but some of them were very good. This is the one on the Veneto.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_Uq3SmydSI&t=78s
One of the best weeks of my life was the week I spent on my own in a convent guest house on the island of Giudecca.
I've seen an advertisement for a tour along the canals of all the Palladium houses. I'm sure it's spectacular.
Making pesto with pinoli. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJS9rIE1Uq4&list=PL4S_ehS1f_jha_8RQ9PJN2w5efmA0zD3b&index=12
I always get a bit teary when I hear Va Pensiero, but never more so than on this occasion. Tears and brividi...God bless Riccardo Muti for recognizing the emotion of the chorus and the audience, and dropping the professional stance for once and allowing not only an encore, but a participatory one. :)
It begins at 5:05 when someone shouts "Viva L'Italia" after the chorus had finished.
"Siamo in casa nostra...la facciamo tutti insieme...a tempo pero!" :) Properly broke my heart. If only my father could have heard it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPANwyaSlX4&t=525s
Sometimes I think it should be our anthem, but then I think of the struggle for a country, and I remember occasions like the following, and I think, no, leave it alone. We all know "Va Pensiero" and have it in our hearts anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNSz0_XJD4s
My Italian relatives say that American coffee tastes like dirty dishwater. :)Thanks again for the videos. I've been learning abt. Italy a lot here with knowledgeble Italians like you. Thanks for that.
I'll watch them carefully, little by little, as time and circumstances allow. But I already saw the Muti's Va Pensiero. Awe-inspiring. It maked me shive for a second time with a small interval, which is not common . :)

Regarding Italian language, I remember of when we were in an "interview" for the Italian citizenship, the last stage before the conclusion of the process. In certain moment my father and the interviewer were talking somewhat informally, and then Dante arrived. My father started reciting the beginning of Divina Commedia by heart, in Italian, and then the interviewer followed him. At the end, the interviewer was near to say: "hey, here is your citizenship". Lol

I agree that the current hymn is in the right place. I like to hear it also in soccer games, a capella or not. It can be breathtaking.
This one is good:
https://youtu.be/mT6ApDSKl7s
Some of these Rugby players really got emotive, je je:
https://youtu.be/NAZ7iFji2s4

Italian hymn is one of the most beautiful imo, together with Brazilian, French, and even American, English and Russian. Maybe the German too (also very beautiful).

As for coffee, a friend Brazilian, living in Seattle, explained me that the "problem" with the American coffee is the way it's ground, the thicker granularity, which generally results in a too weak beverage. So never mind the amount of ground coffee in the filter, supposedly. Anyway, if they like it, who am I to say them how to do it? Still, it seems dirty water to me. :)

Pax Augusta
21-04-19, 18:55
Fiorentino doc. :)

That guy has lived abroad for many years, he wrote a Florentine dictionary for nostalgia, not to forget the vernacular.

This is a good example of Fiorentino doc/Florentine language. An old man from Florence. The accent is just the most genuine and typical of Florence's historic center.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VroYV0NicqA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvQend_iGwE



This is another good example of Fiorentino Doc, he is a luthier and a violin maker.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFs5YQh-LHo

Regio X
21-04-19, 19:03
@Pax
Are you Tuscan?

Pax Augusta
21-04-19, 19:17
I find Veneto quite understandable, as is Emiliano, of course.


I find Venetian more understandable than other northern Italian languages.



It may have been different in the past. In the map they show Emiliano in parts of the Lunigiana, and Tuscan in the rest. It's very locale specific. Pontremoli, imo, is much more Emilian, Zeri a bit Ligurian, and Fivizzano really Tuscan.


This is an example of dialetto pontremolese, it's uber gallo-italic, even in northern Italy it is increasingly rare to find people who speaks such a strong dialect. The guy is from Pontremoli but is he fully native of Pontremoli? Because one of the surnames sounds Piedmontese, the other is both Lombard and Emilian



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVWaxiRs3kM




@Pax
Are you Tuscan?


I have grandparents from different areas of Italy, I cover the whole country.

Angela
22-04-19, 00:29
I find Venetian more understandable than other northern Italian languages.





This is an example of dialetto pontremolese, it's uber gallo-italic, even in northern Italy it is increasingly rare to find people who speaks such a strong dialect. The guy is from Pontremoli but is he fully native of Pontremoli? Because one of the surnames sounds Piedmontese, the other is both Lombard and Emilian



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVWaxiRs3kM






I have grandparents from different areas of Italy, I cover the whole country.

I posted that video on another thread. From what he says, he grew up in the shadow of the Piagnaro, and he's speaking to a group of Pontremolesi, so this is his dialect, the dialect of Pontremoli, whether or not he might have an ancestor from furthern north.

This is another example of Pontremolese:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dZYoQ4R50k


This is the dialect of the slightly more southern part of the valley, near Liciana Nardi, and my mother's Bagnone.

Collecchia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqfSW48RsV8

Ninna Nanna:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtw9uSSxIGA&list=PLW0GdsvlVOzjPiMwgr-eyz7N8s7oQNp_5

Filastrocca:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soKtJmImYTs&list=PLW0GdsvlVOzjPiMwgr-eyz7N8s7oQNp_5

Zucchero sings with Bugelli occassionally during the summers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFJNtjJlH08


This is the dialect of Sarzana, just over the border in Liguria.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vuh29plPPts

Spezzino:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlN1g09Elfk&t=9s


As for parmigiano...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_a8zjY6bBk

The language of the Veneto is easier to understand than any of them, imo.

We won't even get into Zenese. :)


@Regio,

For your father...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j57VMotWCx0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5LC6Cl6Bdw

Angela
22-04-19, 01:39
I posted that video on another thread. From what he says, he grew up in the shadow of the Piagnaro, and he's speaking to a group of Pontremolesi, so this is his dialect, the dialect of Pontremoli, whether or not he might have an ancestor from furthern north.

This is another example of Pontremolese:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dZYoQ4R50k


This is the dialect of the slightly more southern part of the valley, near Liciana Nardi, and my mother's Bagnone.

Collecchia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqfSW48RsV8

Ninna Nanna:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtw9uSSxIGA&list=PLW0GdsvlVOzjPiMwgr-eyz7N8s7oQNp_5

Filastrocca:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soKtJmImYTs&list=PLW0GdsvlVOzjPiMwgr-eyz7N8s7oQNp_5

Zucchero sings with Bugelli occassionally during the summers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFJNtjJlH08


This is the dialect of Sarzana, just over the border in Liguria.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vuh29plPPts

Spezzino:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlN1g09Elfk&t=9s


As for parmigiano...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_a8zjY6bBk

The language of the Veneto is easier to understand than any of them, imo.

We won't even get into Zenese. :)


@Regio,

For your father...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j57VMotWCx0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5LC6Cl6Bdw

This just came up on my feed. Just had to share....Partigiano to video of the Gladiator...:)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvbyTHyAkUI

bigsnake49
22-04-19, 02:06
You guys have even more dialects than Greeks.

Angela
22-04-19, 03:01
You guys have even more dialects than Greeks.

Well, that's about 200 kilometers and in the old days, some of it was by mule trains over the Appennines, so....

It's three different political regions too: Parma (Emilia), Liguria, and Toscana.

Still, I didn't even include all of them, like the dialect of Fivizzano in east, which is really Tuscan, and the ones to the west of the River Magra, which are much more Ligurian.

Worse than Greece? :)

They're all dying out though; only the old people still speak them regularly. The young ones may do it to have a laugh, but not for real life.

zanipolo
22-04-19, 04:29
Thanks again for the videos. I've been learning abt. Italy a lot here with knowledgeble Italians like you. Thanks for that.
I'll watch them carefully, little by little, as time and circumstances allow. But I already saw the Muti's Va Pensiero. Awe-inspiring. It maked me shive for a second time with a small interval, which is not common . :)
Regarding Italian language, I remember of when we were in an "interview" for the Italian citizenship, the last stage before the conclusion of the process. In certain moment my father and the interviewer were talking somewhat informally, and then Dante arrived. My father started reciting the beginning of Divina Commedia by heart, in Italian, and then the interviewer followed him. At the end, the interviewer was near to say: "hey, here is your citizenship". Lol
I agree that the current hymn is in the right place. I like to hear it also in soccer games, a capella or not. It can be breathtaking.
This one is good:
https://youtu.be/mT6ApDSKl7s
Some of these Rugby players really got emotive, je je:
https://youtu.be/NAZ7iFji2s4
Italian hymn is one of the most beautiful imo, together with Brazilian, French, and even American, English and Russian. Maybe the German too (also very beautiful).
As for coffee, a friend Brazilian, living in Seattle, explained me that the "problem" with the American coffee is the way it's ground, the thicker granularity, which generally results in a too weak beverage. So never mind the amount of ground coffee in the filter, supposedly. Anyway, if they like it, who am I to say them how to do it? Still, it seems dirty water to me. :)
a translator
https://glosbe.com/en/vec/today

New Englander
22-04-19, 22:07
Both sides both my Dads family come from Campania. Picture includes Grandparents and Great Grandfathers.

Surname - Location
My Grandmothers family (Traditional Food: Stuffed Artichoke)
DiGiacomo - Candida, Avellino / Jamaca Plains, MA
Baldasaro - "Naples" / Bellows Falls, Vt
Marino - ? / Bellows Falls, Vt

Grandfathers Family (Traditional Food: Eggplant)
Salerno - "Salerno"? / Revere, MA
Zizza - ? / Revere, MA
Zetto? - ?
Rivello? - ?
Faniglette? - ?

Angela
22-04-19, 22:45
Both sides both my Dads family come from Campania. Picture includes Grandparents and Great Grandfathers.

Surname - Location
My Grandmothers family (Traditional Food: Stuffed Artichoke)
DiGiacomo - Candida, Avellino / Jamaca Plains, MA
Baldasaro - "Naples" / Bellows Falls, Vt
Marino - ? / Bellows Falls, Vt

Grandfathers Family (Traditional Food: Eggplant)
Salerno - "Salerno"? / Revere, MA
Zizza - ? / Revere, MA
Zetto? - ?
Rivello? - ?
Faniglette? - ?

Zizza
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?t=cognomi&cognome=Zizza&x=26&y=16#.XL4UtOhKhPY


Zetto:
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?t=cognomi&cognome=Zizza&x=26&y=16#.XL4UtOhKhPY

Rivello:
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?t=cognomi&cognome=Rivello&x=0&y=0#.XL4VH-hKhPY

Faniglette:This may be spelled incorrectly
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?t=cognomi&cognome=Faniglette&x=0&y=0#.XL4VqOhKhPY

There are Ferrarelli in Avellino, but that's pretty different.

Quite an attractive couple. Her waist is so tiny: it's covered by her bouquet. :)

Regio X
23-04-19, 02:20
Thanks, Angela.
Thanks, Zanipolo

@Pax
Ok.

Regio X
02-05-19, 18:54
From Oct 2018. Saw it just now.

"Diaspora" at school:

https://www.corriere.it/sette/mano-libera/18_ottobre_04/finalmente-veneto-salda-debito-nonni-emigrati-d373c390-c58c-11e8-994e-6382a2ca0409.shtml

~5.459.000 Venetians... Wow! That's an invaluable (what we could call) "human capital".

Angela
02-05-19, 19:10
From Oct 2018. Saw it just now.

"Diaspora" at school:

https://www.corriere.it/sette/mano-libera/18_ottobre_04/finalmente-veneto-salda-debito-nonni-emigrati-d373c390-c58c-11e8-994e-6382a2ca0409.shtml

~5.459.000 Venetians... Wow! That's an invaluable (what we could call) "human capital".

It's about time it was taught in Italy.

zanipolo
02-05-19, 21:30
From Oct 2018. Saw it just now.
"Diaspora" at school:
https://www.corriere.it/sette/mano-libera/18_ottobre_04/finalmente-veneto-salda-debito-nonni-emigrati-d373c390-c58c-11e8-994e-6382a2ca0409.shtml
~5.459.000 Venetians... Wow! That's an invaluable (what we could call) "human capital".
http://www.bassano.eu/Lingua-Veneta-Nomi.htm
my grandmother, father and 29 year old cousin from Venice proper ( last month visitor ) all used the language
.
.
in link there is Jijo name for Luigi ...............pronounced yee..yo
my great great grandfather Luigi ( known as Jijo ) below born 1853 with one of his daughters Rosa born 1881 and 2 of her daughters elisabetta b 1910 and Clelia b 1912
.
https://i.postimg.cc/TwYLt3Vk/pret1917.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Regio X
04-05-19, 04:57
http://www.bassano.eu/Lingua-Veneta-Nomi.htm
my grandmother, father and 29 year old cousin from Venice proper ( last month visitor ) all used the languageVery nice, Zanipolo.
Are you related to Sile?

As for diaspora, I just saw that the Prime Minister of Slovakia, Peter Pellegrini, has Italian roots (as also the Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro - originally Bolzonaro, from RO/PD):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pellegrini
(so Peter's great-grandfather, Leopoldo Pellegrini)

zanipolo
04-05-19, 06:12
Very nice, Zanipolo.
Are you related to Sile?
As for diaspora, I just saw that the Prime Minister of Slovakia, Peter Pellegrini, has Italian roots (as also the Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro - originally Bolzonaro, from RO/PD):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pellegrini
(so Peter's great-grandfather, Leopoldo Pellegrini)
Sile is my father .................his account does not work anymore after he had to reinstall windows 10
I let him use my account sometimes, but he is not allowed to vote.
He is also looking after his 2 grandsons ( my brothers children ), sometimes.....so he does not have much time anymore

Regio X
07-05-19, 18:58
Sile is my father .................his account does not work anymore after he had to reinstall windows 10
I let him use my account sometimes, but he is not allowed to vote.
He is also looking after his 2 grandsons ( my brothers children ), sometimes.....so he does not have much time anymoreCool. So nice to "meet" you. :)
Send Sile my best regards.
Cheers

zanipolo
09-05-19, 21:40
Cool. So nice to "meet" you. :)
Send Sile my best regards.
Cheers

I will
he might start a new account later on

dominique_nuit
01-06-19, 21:49
I am an Italian-Anglo-Irish mix. Both of my paternal grandparents were born in Caria di Drapia, a small farming village on the slopes of Monte Poro, overlooking the Tyrrhenian Sea, with Stromboli in the distance. Down until the end of the Napoleonic era the area was dominated & ruled by the noble families of Tropea, a "free city" perhaps best conceived as miniature Venice of the South.

So far as I know my ancestors lived as small freeholders on the Poro dating back at least until 1400, forming marriages with other families of the "Casali di Tropea." An agricultural crisis in the early 19th century left them desperate, however, and for a few generations they participated in the settlement of San Ferdinando, which involved draining malarial swamps to create the rich citrus groves that exist today, before returning to Caria by century's end. See http://www.tropeamagazine.it/sanferdinando

In the 1920s my grandfather emigrated to Ambler, Pennsylvania, to work at Keasbey & Mattison, the world's largest asbestos manufacturer, discussed at length by Gay Talese in "Unto the Sons."

I am now applying for Italian citizenship via my father's mother, who never naturalized. The process is expected to take 2.5 years, which should be enough time for me to acquire a reasonable knowledge of the language. I would like to return to Italy and start a family (assuming I am not too old, a sad biological possibility), hopefully in the city of Reggio.

On Drapia in general (in Italian) =

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpjWa3pRtV4

Brattiro circa 1960s =

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C56Se6nNpzg

Sagra della 'Nduja -- Spilinga 1986

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYJJSmFdpsY

The Coast of the Gods 1983 =

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGqOYkqYxDY&amp;t=21s

The Aura of the Work of Art =

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGkSBZf2lMA

Angela
01-06-19, 23:32
Very nice.

Have you ever had "Nduja? It's delicious, but very hot. American chefs have recently caught on to it. In fact, it was just recently featured on a video at Bon Appetit where they put it on pizza. Jamie Oliver has a recipe for pasta using it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64mj4oR-0yw



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QJbrzH8UG4

I'm not a big fan of this recipe, however. English made "Nduja? It looks all wrong. Plus, you have to blanch the cime di rapa for a few minutes before frying, and parmigiano is the WRONG cheese for something this spicy.

dominique_nuit
02-06-19, 19:02
Have you ever had "Nduja?

Alienated and declasse person that I am, existing on the fringes of society, I of course just happen to manage an Italian restaurant. We used to have a retail counter, manned by a Sardinian gentleman trained in the art of slicing & arranging tissue-thin prosciutto, and 'nduja was among the products on offer. Unfortunately the retail counter was not a viable proposition, very hard to compete with the Eataly's and Citarella's of the world, and once the Sardinian abruptly quit in a tizzy, the counter lost its raison d'etat.

However, in conducting online genealogical research (in truth "hopping" onto other people's research), I discovered that my family inter-married several times in the 1800s with the Barbalace clan, whose patriarch Pasquale Barbalace, of the village of Carciadi (separated by a moat from Spilinga), was the very first settler of San Ferdinando. Accordingly, I googled Barbalace to see what I could learn of them, and this is what I discovered = https://njmonthly.com/articles/eat-drink/table-hopping/rosarios-butcher-shop-nduja/

Angela
02-06-19, 19:15
Wow. That makes you alienated and declasse? In New York????

Jovialis
12-09-19, 16:38
The Altamuran Revolution (Italian: Rivoluzione di Altamura, also Rivoluzione altamurana) was a three month period of self-government of Italian town Altamura, right after the birth of the Parthenopean Republic (23 January 1799) which ousted the Bourbons and the Kingdom of Naples. The city of the Kingdom of Naples was then defeated and taken by the so-called Sanfedisti, led by cardinal Fabrizio Ruffo, after a battle on the city walls. After being defeated, most Altamurans managed to flee from porta Bari, one of Altamura's main gates.


In February 1799, the news that the king had fled to Palermo arrived in Altamura. Altamura population then reorganized and embraced the ideals propagated by the French Revolution. The Liberty Tree was also planted in what it was then called piazza del mercato (today it's called piazza Duomo). In the meantime, the Sanfedisti,led by the cardinal Fabrizio Ruffo, were getting closer and closer, determined to restore the Kingdom of Naples and the Bourbons dynasty. Sanfedisti left Matera and arrived at the gates of Altamura on 9 May 1799. Altamura had already fixed everything before the battle, by closing the secondary city gates, fusing the church bells in order to make new cannons and preparing ammunition. On 9 May, the battle took place, but soon Altamurans ran off of ammunition and they started to shoot coins. This let the enemy realize that the situation inside the city was critical and that they wouldn't last for long. On the night of 9 May 1799, most Altamurans managed to escape from porta Bari (perhaps accidentally or thanks to Ruffo unbeknown to his troops). On the morning of 10 May, Sanfedisti entered Altamura, sacking and slaughtering an unknown number of Altamurans who had remained there. The stay of Sanfedisti and Ruffo inside the city lasted 14 days, during which Altamurans gradually returned and some of them were killed or imprisoned. By the end of May 1799, the situation had already normalized and Altamura had returned under the full control of the Kingdom of Naples.


The number of deaths among Sanfedisti has been estimated at around 1,400 people, but it is not clear how many Altamurans were killed. Some historians estimated the losses among Altamurans from about forty to a hundred people, while other historians suggested that many Altamurans and Neapolitan Jacobin people from other cities may have been counted as Sanfedisti. In this case, the death toll among Altamurans and Parthenopean Republicans would be much higher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamuran_Revolution


Here's an interesting snippet of history I read about my father's town. They tried to start an uprising in 1799 based on the ideals of the French Revolution. Goes to show that despite centuries of foreign-feudalism, there were Italians in the South that wanted to create a new state based on freedom and liberty.

Regio X
12-09-19, 18:31
Here's an interesting snippet of history I read about my father's town. They tried to start an uprising in 1799 based on the ideals of the French Revolution. Goes to show that despite centuries of foreign-feudalism, there were Italians in the South that wanted to create a new state based on freedom and liberty.Very interesting, Jovialis. Thanks.

It reminds me an interesting article I read time ago, from William Howard Adams. It shows the influence of the laws of Venice over American Constitution.
The Virginians and the Veneto:
http://www.vqronline.org/essay/virginians-and-veneto

Jovialis
12-09-19, 18:36
Cool, Thanks for sharing, Regio X!

dominique_nuit
14-09-19, 15:49
Here's an interesting snippet of history I read about my father's town. They tried to start an uprising in 1799 based on the ideals of the French Revolution. Goes to show that despite centuries of foreign-feudalism, there were Italians in the South that wanted to create a new state based on freedom and liberty.

I would much rather celebrate the first great Counter-Revolutionary, the warrior-priest Fabrizio Ruffo.

https://realcasadiborbone.it/en/il-cardinale-ruffo-e-le-insorgenze-filoborboniche/

Or for a highly entertaining work of historical fiction, I would point you to "Ruffo in Calabria" by Peter Nichols, which I have mentioned elsewhere on Eupedia.

11396

dominique_nuit
14-09-19, 16:59
Among Ruffo's ancestors were his namesake, Fabrizio Ruffo, who captured three Ottoman galleys at Candia in 1661, and the great patron of the arts Antonio Ruffo, who sponsored works by Rembrandt, Ribera, Guercino, Salvator Rosa, Van Dyk, Artemisia, and others.

See the discussion of Antonio Ruffo in "Patrons & Painters: A Study in the Relations Between Italian Art and Society in the Age of the Baroque" ------>>>> https://books.google.com/books?id=SdOCCFciM7IC&q=ruffo#v=snippet&q=ruffo&f=false


And see this video, in Italian, concerning Rembrandt's Aristotle Contemplating the Bust of Homer, commissioned by Ruffo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcWFCQNBF-M&amp;t=89s

Angela
14-09-19, 18:43
Give it a rest. The Bourbon rulers of Sicily and Southern Italy were terrible stewards of the land and the people. Most of the latter lived in appalling conditions until after they were gone.

The same was true for the people of the Veneto under their own oligarchs, unfortunately.

If people knew more history, and didn't substitute ideology for facts, there wouldn't be debate about these things.

dominique_nuit
14-09-19, 19:26
It is certainly debatable whether Italian unification was good for the South, and, more generally, whether bourgeois rule (post-1789) has been good for the long-term interests of Europe.

I'll side with Lampedusa on this one, thank you.

torzio
14-09-19, 21:19
Very interesting, Jovialis. Thanks.

It reminds me an interesting article I read time ago, from William Howard Adams. It shows the influence of the laws of Venice over American Constitution.
The Virginians and the Veneto:
http://www.vqronline.org/essay/virginians-and-veneto

i think the difference was slavery more than anything else

https://www.academia.edu/217551/Domestic_Slavery_in_Renaissance_Italy

https://journals.openedition.org/cdlm/7194#tocfrom1n2

dominique_nuit
15-09-19, 12:02
Angela, you and I should meet in person, in NYC, so that you may establish your greater intellect, and I my greater charisma. It is ridiculous for you to refer to ideologues, when in fact the Jacobins were the ideologues. Fabrizio Ruffo was the great defender of traditional, organic society. It gives me great pleasure to inform you that I have his portrait on my wall.

Jovialis
15-09-19, 14:11
https://i.imgur.com/QpovLUM.png

Altamura population then reorganized and embraced the ideals propagated by the French Revolution. The Liberty Tree was also planted in what it was then called piazza del mercato (today it's called piazza Duomo).


In those days, the liberty tree wasn't just a symbol, it had utility. I wonder if the Altamurans used it in the same way. I'd like to learn more about this affair.


Even after the revolution (https://www.history.com/topics/american-revolution), liberty trees remained a potent symbol of the power of rebellion and public protest. When revolution broke out in France in 1789, revolutionaries began to name and plant their own (https://books.google.com/books?id=yYJ4AAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA197&dq=%22liberty%20trees%22&pg=PA197#v=onepage&q=%22liberty%20trees%22&f=false) liberty trees, and the custom also sprang up in Italy and Germany.

https://www.history.com/news/liberty-trees-symbol-revolutionary-war

dominique_nuit
16-09-19, 06:18
Angela, my apologies. I was rather drunk when I addressed you in my last post here (#88 on this thread). I was pixilated by an orange wine, Albana di Romagna, which I recommend, albeit in moderation. But yes, I do in fact have reproductions of portraits of Cardinal Ruffo and Roger II on my wall.

Jovialis, you really should read the Peter Nichols novel, it's pretty even-handed and about the only extensive treatment of this episode in Southern Italian history that you are likely to find in English.

Angela
16-09-19, 19:49
I'm hardly the kind of person who would have been in favor of the extreme Jacobins. I strike you as the kind of person who would have supported the Terror in Paris? Neither, however, would I ever lionize reactionaries. They instituted their own reign of terror, which you conveniently fail to mention, and not only in Italy.

Sometimes it seems to me that the main difference between the Nazis and the Communists is that the Eastern European Communists weren't as organized and industrialized as the German Fascists, and they didn't have that sick obsession with ethnicity. Same in Cuba, Southeast Asia, you name it. Also, of course, the media always hid and continues to hide the evil that the Communists perpetrated. It still goes on today. Just the other day I heard someone speak approvingly of Lillian Hellman. I find it amazing. She was a complete apologist for evil of the worst kind.

That's why extremists on both sides of the political spectrum are dangerous and must be answered, and why people must work against the implementation of their political agendas.

We now know where you stand. There will be no propagandizing of extreme ideologies here, neither of the left or the right.

Keep to academic subjects, or at least non political ones, and try to keep commentary as objective and free of biases as possible.

dominique_nuit
16-09-19, 23:57
Angela, perhaps my link to the Bourbon website was unfortunate, but I thought it gave a nice account of Cardinal Ruffo. I am not a Neo-Bourbon fanatic, and the Ruffo family in any case goes back to Norman times, if not further (some say Byzantine antecedents).

And I suspect you are unfamiliar with Peter Nichols. His book on Cardinal Ruffo hardly qualifies as propaganda. The mood of the book is one of deep ambivalence, and told from the perspective of a fictitious schoolteacher who accompanied Ruffo on his campaign. The teacher serves as Ruffo's emissary to Crotone and, yes, Altamura, which is why the book should be of particular interest to Jovialis.

Peter Nichols is also the author of "Politics of the Vatican" (1967) and "Italia, Italia" (1974)

This is the Kirkus Review of "Italia, Italia" ----> https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/peter-nichols-3/italia-italia/

And this is the Kirkus Review of "Politics of the Vatican" ---->https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/peter-nichols-2/the-politics-of-the-vatican/

But yes, your instincts about me (as opposed to Nichols) are accurate insofar as I do not support the political center or our current elites, who are pretty damn dangerous, nay, destructive, and have been left unanswered for far too long.

And that is all I shall say. My apologies for responding to Jovialis in good faith, who, I should point out, raised this "non academic" subject.