View Full Version : Bronze Age Sögel warriors are responsible for a R1b founder effect in NW Europe

04-12-16, 12:01

Maciamo made on the Eupedia site a very interesting remark about the Unetice culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetice_culture)in relationship with the spread of R1b S21:
"The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE, thus creating a new culture, that of the Nordic Bronze Age (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age)."


The Unetice culture in Northwestern Germany and Northern Netherlands is called the Sögel Kreis (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sögel-Wohlde-Kreis).

Prof Harry Fokkens (1998):
''The northern Netherlands is part of the northern group (NW Germany and Denmark) especially of the Sögeler Kreis characterized by a number of distinctive men's graves. The Drouwen grave is the best known Dutch example.It's remarkable that the Elp culture has never been presented as the immigration of a new group of people. Because clearly this period was a time when a number of new elements made their entry while others disappeared. The disappearance of beakers, the appearance of the Sögel men's graves with the first 'swords', among other things, the fully extended burial posture, under barrows; all the factors have been reason enough in the past to conclude that the Elp culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elp_culture)represented an immigration of Sögel warriors."

So DNA research and archeological findings come together. The spread of the Bronze Age culture was obvious not a matter of acculteralization but of immigration and 'take over'.

Thesis: the Sögel warriors, related to the Unetice culture, are responsible for a founder effect of R1b S21 in Northwestern Europe.

Has Maciamo given the key to the spread of R1b? I know there aren’t any ancient R1b finding from the Unecite culture. That could deliver the final evidence!

I didn’t find much literature about the spread of the Unecite culture (suggestions welcome).

But what are the pro’s and contra’s for this thesis?

04-12-16, 16:55

An interesting dissertation about this subject and specific regarding the position of women in this culture:

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05-12-16, 10:39
Got doubts about this it's like a reconstruction of streams in a jacuzzi! The Sogel warrior hotspot in Northern Netherlands, 40% R1b S21 nowadays, is likely a kind of South Scandinavian settlement, this according to the dissertation mentioned in the previous posting and according to this work: http://rjh.ub.rug.nl/Palaeohistoria/article/view/25026/22488
"And we have surely emphasized sufficiently the fact that all the leading characters have some connection with the South Scandinavian culture area and/or the ‘Mittelelbe’ province, although such connections are otherwise rare in this region."
So R1b S21 from the southeastern Unetic culture, to South Scandinavia Bronze Age, then a founder effect along the Southern North Sea Coast?[emoji849][emoji848]

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