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View Full Version : Brother J1e. I got J1-L816 over at MorleyDNA



Triodefreak
05-12-16, 17:42
Does this mean we have Jewish Ancestors?

We've always suspected it. But never had any proof because as far as I know my family did not practice the Jewish faith.

My brother got tested at 23andme. I got tested at ancestryDNA and followed an online guide to find out my haplogroup based on the raw dna data. L817, L818 and L816 tested positive in my data. I could not find those snp's in my brother's data. But from what I've read...the haplogroup y dna is basically inherited by all the males.

Triodefreak
05-12-16, 17:46
Also on Gedmatch most names that come up are Jewish surnames.

Because I tested positive for the L816 subclade....looking at the J1 tree on this site doesn't that prove my ancestors are or were jewish?

Sarah Awad
07-12-16, 20:11
It's a major jewish cluster yes.

Triodefreak
08-12-16, 15:41
Thanks Sarah. I obviously gathered as much. It's a mystery to our family though how this has happened...since there is no narrative or rituals or anything about our "jewishness"...and unlikely that some Ashkenazi Jew just stopped with his faith in the 1600-1900 hundreds and went incognito..so to speak. I suppose the most likely explanation must be infidelity.

Sennevini
08-12-16, 16:51
Conduct some genealogical research for answers. Were they dutch jews? I know there were plenty of mixed marriages since the late 19th century.

Angela
08-12-16, 17:13
Thanks Sarah. I obviously gathered as much. It's a mystery to our family though how this has happened...since there is no narrative or rituals or anything about our "jewishness"...and unlikely that some Ashkenazi Jew just stopped with his faith in the 1600-1900 hundreds and went incognito..so to speak. I suppose the most likely explanation must be infidelity.

From what I've read, individual Jews choosing to "pass" into Christian society isn't at all unlikely.

There were numerous motivations, but usually centering around no longer willing to be the subject of discrimination if not outright slaughter.

Maleline Albright, a U.S. Secretary of State, learned only later in life that her parents were both Ashkenazi Jews who took a new identity and didn't reveal the truth even to her. I recently watched and posted a video about Jewish women in Poland who got false papers during the Second World War, survived, married, and never told anyone, not even their children, until just recently, out of fear of anti-Semitism even today. Even in situations that weren't so dire, the desire to marry a Christian sometimes led a Jewish woman, or man, to "pass", and often the descendants weren't told.

It's a bit analogous to the situation where highly European admixed African-Americans, those who didn't show their African ancestry physically, "passed" into white society. No one knew until the advent of genetic testing, when, especially in the south, "White Americans", found they were 1-2% African. This was the case with most of Thomas Jefferson's children with Sally Hennings, his slave, who as either a mulatto or a quadroon.

Triodefreak
08-12-16, 17:21
Hi Sennevini,

Conduct some genealogical research for answers. Were they dutch jews? I know there were plenty of mixed marriages since the late 19th century.I have gone down the paternal and maternal ancestors for as far as I could find. Nothing...not a hint. Direct paternal line stops in the 1600's. Which is ofcourse when Ashkenazi jews from Germany and Poland fled to the Netherlands (not that many) But I cannot believe they dropped their religion just like that and married to locals...without something coming down the oral narrative or any other pointers.

Triodefreak
08-12-16, 17:27
Thanks for your reply Angela. I knew about Madeleine yes. But the very first ancestor that shows up already had a dutch name. But perhaps you are right. I can image how people wanted to convert....in order to survive.

LeBrok
08-12-16, 17:34
Maleline Albright, a U.S. Secretary of State, learned only later in life that her parents were both Ashkenazi Jews who took a new identity and didn't reveal the truth even to her. I recently watched and posted a video about Jewish women in Poland who got false papers during the Second World War, survived, married, and never told anyone, not even their children, until just recently, out of fear of anti-Semitism even today. Even in situations that weren't so dire, the desire to marry a Christian sometimes led a Jewish woman, or man, to "pass", and often the descendants weren't told.

Sad but true. My favorite polish singer Jacek Kaczmarski didn't know all his childhood that he was a Jew. Parents changed last name and didn't practice Judaism to blend into polish society. I had a Jewish friend through 80s but has learnt from others that he was a Jew. He didn't "advertise" it himself a bit.

Sennevini
08-12-16, 18:44
I have gone down the paternal and maternal ancestors for as far as I could find. Nothing...not a hint. Direct paternal line stops in the 1600's. Which is ofcourse when Ashkenazi jews from Germany and Poland fled to the Netherlands (not that many) But I cannot believe they dropped their religion just like that and married to locals...without something coming down the oral narrative or any other pointers.

Ok. I am familiar with the history of the Dutch jews, but there were not many in the 1600s; only some Ashkenazi near the German border, and a few Sephardi from Antwerp, later of course an influx mainly to Amsterdam. But both of them were quite endogamous, both encouraged by custom as by the social divide. So it's indeed unlikely that after 1600 your family was (aware of) a jewish heritage.

Maybe the transfer to your lineage was in Roman or early medieval times?

Triodefreak
09-12-16, 08:29
Maybe the transfer to your lineage was in Roman or early medieval times?
This has crossed my mind as well... (the Roman times) But then I thought it was too farfetched an idea. In Medieval times Jews were slaughtered in the Netherlands (if what is written in the De kroniek van het St. Geertruiklooster is true) so that too seems unlikely.

I guess I'll never know. The roman scenario and the infidelity one I find the most likely. But after asking around on forums I have put back the Jew who has "renounced" his religion and moved from Germany or (further east even) into the province of Groningen (our paternal line is from that province) back on the list of probable scenario's. Thanks for all the suggestions Sennevini.