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View Full Version : Midevil village near Mumucium Fort? R1b-U152*



Twilight
08-12-16, 02:41
Hello there guys, I'm doing a little research on my Ydna; R1b-U152 and I have some history questions.

My surname Blackledge was first found in Midevil Blackley village. Apparently Blackley is now a days a Neighborhood in the City of Manchester. Apparently there is a Roman Fort located just SW of Blackley neighborhood called Mamucium.

Since my Ydna is R1b-U152 and Mamucium is nearby the Blackledge Family's Mideval village. How likely is a scenario that my direct ancestors were actually stationed at Mamucium? Or is there a chance that I could be directly descended from Roman Peasant farmers instead? Since Mamucium was garrisoned by 20th legion's auxiliary unit, what were the names of the auxiliary units stationed at Mamucium fort?

Thanks, any piece of History helps :)




http://manchesterhistorian.com/2015/when-the-romans-invaded-britain-they-brought-with-them-four-legions-of-which-three-remained-as-a-permanent-garrison-as-a-result-three-legionary-fortresses-were-established-far-larger-than-regular/

http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/mamucium-roman-fort/view/google/

https://www.houseofnames.com/blackledge-family-crest

Maciamo
08-12-16, 11:48
Are you sure Blackley is midevil, because to me it sounds completely evil? Oh, sorry, you meant Medieval, I suppose...

Angela
08-12-16, 15:43
Twilight, so far as I know, auxiliaries would have been drawn from the local population. The actual legionnaires of the XX Legion, which has been much studied, were drawn from across the empire.

"We know many of the names of the soldiers who lived in Cheshire thanks to two very important sources of information, tombstones and military diplomas. The Latin text on these artefacts shows that soldiers in Cheshire were recruited across the Empire, from Spain, France, Italy and the Danube frontier. "

http://www.discoverchester.co.uk/LegionXX.html

This is the tombstone of an optio (administrator to the Centurion) from Merida in Spain.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Roman_Tomb.jpg

Twilight
09-12-16, 07:59
Twilight, so far as I know, auxiliaries would have been drawn from the local population. The actual legionnaires of the XX Legion, which has been much studied, were drawn from across the empire.

"We know many of the names of the soldiers who lived in Cheshire thanks to two very important sources of information, tombstones and military diplomas. The Latin text on these artefacts shows that soldiers in Cheshire were recruited across the Empire, from Spain, France, Italy and the Danube frontier. "

http://www.discoverchester.co.uk/LegionXX.html

This is the tombstone of an optio (administrator to the Centurion) from Merida in Spain.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Roman_Tomb.jpg



Just checked with the local library, the library historian was a little skeptical that some Romans citizens left behind ydna in England but has showed me to some Antique books in the reference section. Might as well find something about the XX legion from the Bookstore if it is well documented. Anyways thanks for the link, this would be great for figuring out the day to day missions and settings. :)


Are you sure Blackley is midevil, because to me it sounds completely evil? Oh, sorry, you meant Medieval, I suppose...

Nice one, yep I made a misspelling. No my Ydna is not the wicked witch of the west :D

LeBrok
10-12-16, 22:28
Just checked with the local library, the library historian was a little skeptical that some Romans citizens left behind ydna in England but has showed me to some Antique books in the reference section. Might as well find something about the XX legion from the Bookstore if it is well documented. Anyways thanks for the link, this would be great for figuring out the day to day missions and settings. :)



Nice one, yep I made a misspelling. No my Ydna is not the wicked witch of the west :D
Welcome to the club, but you can't beat my Marks and Angel. :grin:

Pi gman
11-12-16, 18:51
Hi Twilight,

On another thread Davef suggested our autosomal is similar and when I compared them I agree. Also our y-DNA is similar. Has your family been traced back to near Manchester genealogically?

Here is my k36:

Amerindian 2.74%
Arabian-
Armenian-
Basque 0.94%
Central_African 0.07%
Central_Euro 7.93%
East_African-
East_Asian-
East_Balkan-
East_Central_Asian-
East_Central_Euro 3.40%
East_Med-
Eastern_Euro 5.73%
Fennoscandian 4.84%
French 4.11%
Iberian 16.21%
Indo-Chinese-
Italian 8.10%
Malayan-
Near_Eastern-
North_African 0.18%
North_Atlantic 17.64%
North_Caucasian 5.14%
North_Sea 19.43%
Northeast_African-
Oceanian-
Omotic-
Pygmy-
Iberian-
South_Asian 1.04%
South_Central_Asian-
South_Chinese-
Volga-Ural 0.81%
West_African 0.76%
West_Caucasian-
West_Med 0.92%


"Hi pi gman, your results are close to Twilight's and he's an English Irish German mix. I'm no expert, and the documentation surrounding these calculators is sketchy at best. My final guess is that you're northwest european.


Here's Twilight's.
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 5.86%
Central_African -
Central_Euro 3.13%
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 4.93%
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 10.53%
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 2.26%
Fennoscandian 10.54%
French 4.84%
Iberian 10.87%
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 11.86%
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 17.54%
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 16.95%
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian 0.68%
West_Med -"

Twilight
13-12-16, 06:28
Hi Twilight,

On another thread Davef suggested our autosomal is similar and when I compared them I agree. Also our y-DNA is similar. Has your family been traced back to near Manchester genealogically?

Here is my k36:

Amerindian 2.74%
Arabian-
Armenian-
Basque 0.94%
Central_African 0.07%
Central_Euro 7.93%
East_African-
East_Asian-
East_Balkan-
East_Central_Asian-
East_Central_Euro 3.40%
East_Med-
Eastern_Euro 5.73%
Fennoscandian 4.84%
French 4.11%
Iberian 16.21%
Indo-Chinese-
Italian 8.10%
Malayan-
Near_Eastern-
North_African 0.18%
North_Atlantic 17.64%
North_Caucasian 5.14%
North_Sea 19.43%
Northeast_African-
Oceanian-
Omotic-
Pygmy-
Iberian-
South_Asian 1.04%
South_Central_Asian-
South_Chinese-
Volga-Ural 0.81%
West_African 0.76%
West_Caucasian-
West_Med 0.92%


"Hi pi gman, your results are close to Twilight's and he's an English Irish German mix. I'm no expert, and the documentation surrounding these calculators is sketchy at best. My final guess is that you're northwest european.


Here's Twilight's.
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 5.86%
Central_African -
Central_Euro 3.13%
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 4.93%
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 10.53%
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 2.26%
Fennoscandian 10.54%
French 4.84%
Iberian 10.87%
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 11.86%
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 17.54%
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 16.95%
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian 0.68%
West_Med -"


Hello there Pi gman, that's an interesting connection. Depending on how much French Ancestry you have I suppose that our similarity could be to your French ancestors; considering that both the Isles and France share a Celto-Germanic Heritage; with France having a little more Classical ancestry in Southern France. I have a 23andme and Ancestrydna account if you'd like to compare results further :)


13/32 of my ancestry came from all over England to Colonial America trying to escape religious persecution. My Paternal Grandfather Grandpa Wayne was 100% Quaker Heritage. I know that my Mtdna/1/16 of my British ancestry came from London because my maternal Grandmother was born in London; she's 3/4 Scots-Irish and 1/4 Middlesexite.


My direct Ancestors started to get recorded starting with John Christopher Blackledge Sr. (1600-?) whom lived in Whittle De Woods Lancashire witch is about 24 1/2 miles Northwest from Manchester. I find it an interesting genetic verification, according to the Blackledge family bible all of my recorded Direct ancestors were a range of 5'9"-5'11", my Biological Dad is 5'10" and I'm 5'10 3/4".






https://www.geni.com/people/John-Blackledge-Sr/6000000021889416329

Pi gman
13-12-16, 16:39
The only ancestor I have successfully traced across the pond is John Hay(s). He was my Paternal Grandmother's ancestor and was captured at the Battle of Preston in 1715 and shipped to Maryland as an indentured servent. The crime was fighting against the King for Bonnie Prince Charlie.

My Dad's Paternal ancestery is a mystery and even though I have done extensive deep clade testing with my y-DNA, including Big Y with FTDNA his origins continue to be a mystery even though we are supposedly French. The story is they had to leave the old country in a hurry because of political troubles and left 2 old maids in a mansion. We don't know from where but he did ask the courts in Maryland for his corn and to be free from the indenture with who may have been his cousin James Lyley??.

"Charles Co., Md. Circuit Court, Liber L, p. 19.

12 Nov 1684 • Charles Co., Md.

Nov. 12, 1684 - Ordered that John Pigman and James Lyle servants to Mr. Edward Pye be free and have their corn and clothes from said Pye. (Charles Co., Md. Circuit Court, Liber L, p. 19.)"


The reason I mention this is because the Lyley family and the Pymont families had estates in and near Leeds which is near where your Blackledge ancestor are from.
Pigman might be the anglicized product of the French Pimond and/or Pymont. Say it in French with a silent "g" and you get Pi mon.
Don't know if it is a possible connection or perhaps grabbing for straws. Have you tested your SNPs past U 152? If so you would probably be L2. Mine are:R-U 152, L2, Z49, Z142 Z150/Z12222*

Twilight
13-12-16, 18:10
The only ancestor I have successfully traced across the pond is John Hay(s). He was my Paternal Grandmother's ancestor and was captured at the Battle of Preston in 1715 and shipped to Maryland as an indentured servent. The crime was fighting against the King for Bonnie Prince Charlie.

My Dad's Paternal ancestery is a mystery and even though I have done extensive deep clade testing with my y-DNA, including Big Y with FTDNA his origins continue to be a mystery even though we are supposedly French. The story is they had to leave the old country in a hurry because of political troubles and left 2 old maids in a mansion. We don't know from where but he did ask the courts in Maryland for his corn and to be free from the indenture with who may have been his cousin James Lyley??.

"Charles Co., Md. Circuit Court, Liber L, p. 19.

12 Nov 1684 • Charles Co., Md.

Nov. 12, 1684 - Ordered that John Pigman and James Lyle servants to Mr. Edward Pye be free and have their corn and clothes from said Pye. (Charles Co., Md. Circuit Court, Liber L, p. 19.)"


The reason I mention this is because the Lyley family and the Pymont families had estates in and near Leeds which is near where your Blackledge ancestor are from.
Pigman might be the anglicized product of the French Pimond and/or Pymont. Say it in French with a silent "g" and you get Pi mon.
Don't know if it is a possible connection or perhaps grabbing for straws. Have you tested your SNPs past U 152? If so you would probably be L2. Mine are:R-U 152, L2, Z49, Z142 Z150/Z12222*

Not sure but since your Dad's side of the family's family tree is difficult to trace, there might be a connection albeit I doubt that we strictly share a direct common ancestor; U152 is found Uniformly in small numbers and Manchester was a populated Roman area. We can check to see on other genetic sites. I'll see if I can buy the discounted Ydna package once my holiday shopping is done. :) Id be interested to find out where in Europe Legio XX recruited the Proto-Blackledge family.

Anyways I suppose this site belowwould be of more help.
Not sure but since your Dad's side of the family's family tree is difficult to trace, there might be a connection albeit I doubt that we strictly share a direct common ancestor. We can check to see on other genetic sites. I'll see if I can buy the discounted Ydna package once my holiday shopping is done. :)


http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/pigman

Twilight
13-12-16, 18:32
Twilight, so far as I know, auxiliaries would have been drawn from the local population. The actual legionnaires of the XX Legion, which has been much studied, were drawn from across the empire.

"We know many of the names of the soldiers who lived in Cheshire thanks to two very important sources of information, tombstones and military diplomas. The Latin text on these artefacts shows that soldiers in Cheshire were recruited across the Empire, from Spain, France, Italy and the Danube frontier. "

http://www.discoverchester.co.uk/LegionXX.html

This is the tombstone of an optio (administrator to the Centurion) from Merida in Spain.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Roman_Tomb.jpg


According to the Manchester Museum, there is no physical evidence of Legio XX being in Mamucium. But I suppose I can check my specific Ydna subclade. Wonder what my U152 ancestors were doing in a Small fort of Auxillaries during the dark ages?




http://www.7agesofmanchester.org/main/1_mamucium.htm


http://www.7agesofmanchester.org/main/1_mamucium.htm

Pi gman
13-12-16, 20:01
Thanks for the worldfamilies link. That one is actually mine :). Just checked out your name on ysearch and there are two I halogroups and one Blackledge that is R1b. This one is only tested to 12 STRs. Is this one yours?

Compare
User ID
Pedigree
Last Name
Ancestor
Origin
Haplogroup
Tested With



RR3FR (http://www.ysearch.org/lastname_view.asp?uid=&letter=&lastname=Blackledge&viewuid=RR3FR&p=0)

Blackledge
Blacklidg
Holland
I1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA



THV4G (http://www.ysearch.org/lastname_view.asp?uid=&letter=&lastname=Blackledge&viewuid=THV4G&p=0)
Show (http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=THV4G)
Blackledge
Blackledge
Oxford, England
R1b1a2 (tested)
Family Tree DNA



ME73Q (http://www.ysearch.org/lastname_view.asp?uid=&letter=&lastname=Blackledge&viewuid=ME73Q&p=0)

Blacklidge
Blacklidge
Unknown
I1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA

Twilight
13-12-16, 20:11
Thanks for the worldfamilies link. That one is actually mine :). Just checked out your name on ysearch and there are two I halogroups and one Blackledge that is R1b. This one is only tested to 12 STRs. Is this one yours?

Compare
User ID
Pedigree
Last Name
Ancestor
Origin
Haplogroup
Tested With



RR3FR (http://www.ysearch.org/lastname_view.asp?uid=&letter=&lastname=Blackledge&viewuid=RR3FR&p=0)

Blackledge
Blacklidg
Holland
I1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA



THV4G (http://www.ysearch.org/lastname_view.asp?uid=&letter=&lastname=Blackledge&viewuid=THV4G&p=0)
Show (http://www.ysearch.org/gedcom_show.asp?uid=&viewuid=THV4G)
Blackledge
Blackledge
Oxford, England
R1b1a2 (tested)
Family Tree DNA



ME73Q (http://www.ysearch.org/lastname_view.asp?uid=&letter=&lastname=Blackledge&viewuid=ME73Q&p=0)

Blacklidge
Blacklidge
Unknown
I1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA




Nope, not exactly but I do believe my long lost 1st cousin once removed got tested from Oklahoma. When I first got DNA tested, one of the first cousins I meet was my 2nd cousin from a farmstead in Jet Oklahoma; where Grandpa Wayne was born so should be the same ydna. :)

Pi gman
13-12-16, 20:42
Nope, not exactly but I do believe my long lost 1st cousin once removed got tested from Oklahoma. When I first got DNA tested, one of the first cousins I meet was my 2nd cousin from a farmstead in Jet Oklahoma; where Grandpa Wayne was born so should be the same ydna. :)

Ok, we are seperated by a genetic distance of 7. Not even close at 12 markers. I am ZHHCY btw.

Twilight
13-12-16, 23:16
Ok, we are seperated by a genetic distance of 7. Not even close at 12 markers. I am ZHHCY btw.

That's okay:) Unfortunately I just realized that the deeper clades prices are higher than my $200 per payday budget. So it looks like even with the holiday price the price is out of my budget unfortunately. Fortunately since there are a couple anonymous Blackledge accounts in my 23andme "family finder" with the same U152, I think it's safe to say I can use YSEQ U152 test and meet you at Ftdna. Thanks for checking and you're welcome btw :)

brianco
14-12-16, 05:00
Hi Twilight

Did you test at 23andMe? going off your designated R1b1b2a1a2d. If so did they give you a * or not?

If not you got a no call for L2 so it it worth bearing this in mind for future testing!

b.



That's okay:) Unfortunately I just realized that the deeper clades prices are higher than my $200 per payday budget. So it looks like even with the holiday price the price is out of my budget unfortunately. Fortunately since there are a couple anonymous Blackledge accounts in my 23andme "family finder" with the same U152, I think it's safe to say I can use YSEQ U152 test and meet you at Ftdna. Thanks for checking and you're welcome btw :)

Twilight
14-12-16, 05:09
Hi Twilight

Did you test at 23andMe? going off your designated R1b1b2a1a2d. If so did they give you a * or not?

If not you got a no call for L2 so it it worth bearing this in mind for future testing!

b.

I don't believe I saw a pound sign, thanks for the tip I got tested on my ydna via 23andme. My Mom just signed me up to the Seattle Geneological Society with includes a discount for Ftdna so the good news is that it looks like I have the budget to trace my ydna and more services before moving out; witch was the original plan. Might need to wait until June until class starts but the wait will be worth it. :)

Pi gman
20-12-16, 20:47
That's okay:) Unfortunately I just realized that the deeper clades prices are higher than my $200 per payday budget. So it looks like even with the holiday price the price is out of my budget unfortunately. Fortunately since there are a couple anonymous Blackledge accounts in my 23andme "family finder" with the same U152, I think it's safe to say I can use YSEQ U152 test and meet you at Ftdna. Thanks for checking and you're welcome btw :)

I don't know if you are interested or not but I have a $50 off FTDNA coupon I can send to you. It is for Big Y but has to be used by Dec. 25. Let me know your e-mail address and I will send it to you. If Twighlight doesn't want it I can send to someone else but I will wait for Twilight's answer first.