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Valerius
16-12-16, 14:06
Hello,

I was confirmed by FTDNA as E-M123* which is negative for M34 or any other branches. It's a rare haplogroup found in North-Western Iberia, The Middle East and even one case in my country Bulgaria, everywhere in just 1% or less. I want to ask about its presence in Europe - is it possible that E-M123* came to the Balkans with the Neolithic farmers from the Middle East? Or its presence there its due to late migrations like Roman colonists? Is it possible to be determined? My male ancestors are Vlachs who are said to be a mixture of Thracians and Roman colonists - so E-M123* could either be from Romans or Thracians. That's why I'm kinda confused with correlating my haplogroup with historical events. Any ideas? I know that with no branchings I can't compare myself with other E-M123 people so that's why I'm asking if someone knows something more than I do.

Also the distribution map of M123 from Geno 2.0 is different than the one in Eupedia - http://imgur.com/F1EYKue

It looks logical, according to the map, that M123 entered the Balkans from Anatolia and the highlighted area is more or less in the boundaries of Ancient Thrace.

Twilight
18-12-16, 03:16
This is a rare Haplogroup indeed. The fact that E-M123* does not even have a name tells me that this Haplogroup hasn't even been studied yet. But no worries, E-M123 may be really rare but that lineage is only your direct ancestor's lineage; fathers, father's, father's......... side of the family. I suppose we can start with Ftdna, I noticed that yes there are some people scattered around the Mediterranean whom are also E-M123*, are these guys on Ftdna? The E-M123 page moderators I would imagine would know the answer. I'm wondering if your E-M123* cousins Ydna can be tested by the Molecular Clock. The Molecular Clock can determine when you two shared a common direct ancestor.

Thracians and Neolithic European Ancestries are both very plausible hypothesis at this point, however ultimately what all of the E-M123* individuals have in common is that predomately all of them have direct origins that were historically apart of Rome. Witch leads to a hypothasis that I'm adding as a scenario; since the Ydna is spread out so super thin. If every E-M123* individuals have the same common ancestor that lived 2,000 ybp 200+or-, could the common ancestor be in the Roman military; Auxillary or Legionnaire?

At this point these are only educated guesses since the Ydna EM123* hasn't been studied yet. Unfortunately we need more samples in order to get a better idea. But a Molecular clock is a start to finding at least some answers. ^_^ good luck



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_clock



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M123#CITEREFFloresMaca-MeyerLarrugaCabrera2005



http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M123

Valerius
19-12-16, 22:05
Thank you for the information.

Yes, there are some other M123* people that I've met online - my type of M123* is called E-PF4428 - I've found 1 guy from Northern Portugal where this haplogroup seems to peak and one guy whose male ancestors were from Central Germany. In Haplozone-dot-net this Portugese person is not even detected as a match. I have been told that our E-PF4428 branch is so old that all of us are on a great distance from each other - thousand of years. AFAIK, the only way do determine the time to the most recent common ancestor goes with Big-Y but that's something for the future, at best. Is that Molecular clock part of the Big-Y or is different kind of DNA test, I didn't understood?

In FTDNA I don't have any matches or anything useful. Guess must wait for new info on the matter. Geno 2.0 says: "This branch is not accompanied by a major movement on the map, and research on this branch is continuing."

Twilight
20-12-16, 04:47
Thank you for the information.

Yes, there are some other M123* people that I've met online - my type of M123* is called E-PF4428 - I've found 1 guy from Northern Portugal where this haplogroup seems to peak and one guy whose male ancestors were from Central Germany. In Haplozone-dot-net this Portugese person is not even detected as a match. I have been told that our E-PF4428 branch is so old that all of us are on a great distance from each other - thousand of years. AFAIK, the only way do determine the time to the most recent common ancestor goes with Big-Y but that's something for the future, at best. Is that Molecular clock part of the Big-Y or is different kind of DNA test, I didn't understood?

In FTDNA I don't have any matches or anything useful. Guess must wait for new info on the matter. Geno 2.0 says: "This branch is not accompanied by a major movement on the map, and research on this branch is continuing."

You're welcome, let's see what the big Y says. I'd do some research on your direct male ancestors and go back as far as you can on the paper trail; and rule out the mailmen while applicable. And by the time you have your Big Y results in the future, you should be closer to where your Ydna came from specifically. :)

Valerius
21-12-16, 02:32
Thank you, will do it at some point : )

kingjohn
21-12-16, 17:53
dear valerius,
cool haplogroup
i derived from you
e-m123* is found in north portugal and
also there are few members from germany ....
with kind regards
adam

p.s
your haplogroup could be neolithic in europe {portugal}
but i do think your valch ancestor was descendents from roman auxiliry.... :)

Valerius
21-12-16, 19:29
Thank you Adam.
So you think that my haplogroup was originally from Portugal? I see E-M123* is common in Northern Portugal and Galicia region in Spain. In Roman times that area was inhabited by Celtiberians - Celtic tribes like Galici, Celtici, Bracari - is it possible that my male ancestors were Celts before they were picked up by the Romans as sodiers? I found this info about the Celts from Galicia - "they would be enlisted massively as auxiliaries of the Roman legions, fulfilling destinies sometimes completely separate from Galicia, as far as Thrace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace) and Dacia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia)". Seems like pieces of a puzzle pointing to the Romans. But I'll have to wait some time for the TMRCA info. It can confirm these theories.

kingjohn
21-12-16, 22:02
Cohors [prima] Bracaraugustanorum [quingenaria] equitata civium Romanorum ("[1st] part-mounted [500 strong] cohort of Roman citizens
regiment containing cavalry contingents. The cohort stationed in dacia
they were at this fort :
Castra of Boroșneu Mare

Valerius
22-12-16, 02:45
Thank you again for your information - it led me to some interesting observations - it seems this cohort was part of the Legio XIII Gemina which was stationed in Dacia but in 271 AD was evacuated and re-stationed in Ratiaria (modern Archar, NW Bulgaria)... and that's just 20-30 km away from the home village of my ancestors. Don't know if these Bracari units were still there at that time but everything's possible.

Can't wait to get some info on the time as Twilight also noted that if it's 2000 +/- years it will be a good proof for everything we are talking about here.

Twilight
22-12-16, 04:52
Thank you, will do it at some point : )


Thank you again for your information - it led me to some interesting observations - it seems this cohort was part of the Legio XIII Gemina which was stationed in Dacia but in 271 AD was evacuated and re-stationed in Ratiaria (modern Archar, NW Bulgaria)... and that's just 20-30 km away from the home village of my ancestors. Don't know if these Bracari units were still there at that time but everything's possible.

Can't wait to get some info on the time as Twilight also noted that if it's 2000 +/- years it will be a good proof for everything we are talking about here.

You're most welcome. Wish you the best of luck and Happy Holidays :)

Valerius
23-12-16, 00:43
You're most welcome. Wish you the best of luck and Happy Holidays :)

Thank you very much, Happy Holidays to you too!

Valerius
21-03-17, 00:13
Btw, just to add this - I've imported that genome from Bronze Age Armenia (RISE423) that turned out to be E-M123* in DNA.LAND and the results are rather strange if they are true:

African 71%
West African 50%
Lower Niger Valley 37%
Mende/Akan 13%
Southern African 22%
West Eurasian 29%
South/Central European 17%
Kalash 11%

I know that the YDNA is unrelated or very distantly related to autosomes but still it's very surprising if there was a population in Bronze age Anatolia with those kind of autosomal stats.

Megalophias
21-03-17, 00:26
Btw, just to add this - I've imported that genome from Bronze Age Armenia (RISE423) that turned out to be E-M123* in DNA.LAND and the results are rather strange if they are true:

African 71%
West African 50%
Lower Niger Valley 37%
Mende/Akan 13%
Southern African 22%
West Eurasian 29%
South/Central European 17%
Kalash 11%

I know that the YDNA is unrelated or very distantly related to autosomes but still it's very surprising if there was a population in Bronze age Anatolia with those kind of autosomal stats.
Mislabelled sample probably. Every other analysis shows that sample looking like a North Caucasian.

Valerius
21-03-17, 00:30
I guess so, otherwise it would be very very strange.

Valerius
08-02-18, 08:12
Yfull is done - https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

Seems that me and the German person (from Poland) are now on our own European branch - formed 18100 ybp, TMRCA 10900 ybp - looks like a prehistoric migration, although nothing is for sure because of the insufficient data.

kingjohn
08-02-18, 16:35
Yfull is done - https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

Seems that me and the German person (from Poland) are now on our own European branch - formed 18100 ybp, TMRCA 10900 ybp - looks like a prehistoric migration, although nothing is for sure because of the insufficient data.


what is your thought on the e-m123* 1.8% 2/113 in volterrea tuscanay
this area was etruscan and before that related to villanova culture

up untill now it was mainly found in north portugal

source : http://tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10.1080/03014460.2017.1409801?scroll=top&


9722

Valerius
08-02-18, 17:46
what is your thought on the e-m123* 1.8% 2/113 in volterrea tuscanay
this area was etruscan and before that related to villanova culture

up untill now it was mainly found in north portugal

source : http://tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10.1080/03014460.2017.1409801?scroll=top&


9722

Thank you for this interesting information, never realized e-m123* was ever found in Italy. Sadly I can't access neither the image nor the document. Is e-m123* found among living population or in ancient samples? And is it confirmed to be e-m123* and not just e-m123 ? If it's present there then that would add more credibility to the theory that the Etruscans came from Anatolia/Near East back in the day. Also will fill the missing e-m123* from Italy, as before was present in the South only in the Balkans and Iberia. Also interesting about its presence in Germany, Austria, Hungary and England.

Pax Augusta
08-02-18, 18:04
Thank you for this interesting information, never realized e-m123* was ever found in Italy. Sadly I can't access neither the image nor the document. Is e-m123* found among living population or in ancient samples? And is it confirmed to be e-m123* and not just e-m123 ? If it's present there then that would add more credibility to the theory that the Etruscans came from Anatolia/Near East back in the day. Also will fill the missing e-m123* from Italy, as before was present in the South only in the Balkans and Iberia. Also interesting about its presence in Germany, Austria, Hungary and England.

It does not make any sense to look for the origins of an ancient people on the basis of less widespread and rarer haplogroups in modern-day populations. E-M123 was already found in Italy, and also in Sardinia. It is possible to find it anywhere in Italy but never exceeds 1-2%, except in Sardinia and very few other places. And E-M123* is also found in Bulgaria, Spain and Portugal.


what is your thought on the e-m123* 1.8% 2/113 in volterrea tuscanay
this area was etruscan and before that related to villanova culture

up untill now it was mainly found in north portugalsource : http://tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10.1080/03014460.2017.1409801?scroll=top&


1.8% means that there are 2 out of 117 individuals in Volterra with this haplogroup. It's quite impossible to draw any conclusion, they are too few.

Valerius
08-02-18, 18:19
It does not make any sense to look for the origins of an ancient people on the basis of less widespread and rarer haplogroups in modern-day populations. E-M123 was already found in Italy, and also in Sardinia. It is possible to find it anywhere in Italy but never exceeds 1-2%, except in Sardinia and very few other places. And E-M123* is also found in Bulgaria, Spain and Portugal.

My idea was that it will add more pieces to the puzzle, not that it will solve the whole riddle.

Valerius
08-02-18, 19:02
what is your thought on the e-m123* 1.8% 2/113 in volterrea tuscanay
this area was etruscan and before that related to villanova culture



Kingjohn, I've checked the results from this study and there is no information about e-m123* - it's only e-m123 which is almost for sure E-m34, as it's the case in many parts of Italy as Pax Augusta mentioned. In that case it's just normal presence of e-m34 which is indeed pre-Etruscan as it seems.

kingjohn
08-02-18, 19:18
Kingjohn, I've checked the results from this study and there is no information about e-m123* - it's only e-m123 which is almost for sure E-m34, as it's the case in many parts of Italy as Pax Augusta mentioned. In that case it's just normal presence of e-m34 which is indeed pre-Etruscan as it seems.

check again table s6
e-m123* was found in volterra
e-m34 mainly in apuglia and tyrenean calabria
e-m123* is ancient in europe probably neolithic in portugal
e-m34 is levantine ,jewish arrived with jewish slaves of roman empire , or pheonician sailors
and pax augusta it is 2/113 not 2/117 not taht it make such big difference ...


table s6 again
hope irt will work for you this time
9723

Azzurro
08-02-18, 20:11
check again table s6
e-m123* was found in volterra
e-m34 mainly in apuglia and tyrenean calabria
e-m123* is ancient in europe probably neolithic in portugal
e-m34 is levantine ,jewish arrived with jewish slaves of roman empire , or pheonician sailors
and pax augusta it is 2/113 not 2/117 not taht it make such big difference ...


table s6 again
hope irt will work for you this time
9723

The E-M123 found in Volterra is probably related to the ones found in La Spezia under E-PH3893, which is under E-L791>Y4970 branch.

https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y4970/

As for in Puglia one on ftdna is positive under the E-Y2947 which another branch under E-L791.

E-L791 seems to be somewhat frequent in Italy.

As for other E-M123 in Puglia, its probably a mix of E-M84 lines and the above 2 mentioned. Definitely some can turn out to Jewish, Puglia had the second strongest Jewish presence after Sicily.

Angela
08-02-18, 20:26
Maybe this is better?
https://imgur.com/a/JNvMd
https://i.imgur.com/bl5fRV3.png

It's labeled E-123*

There are some E-M123(?) in Grosseto from Boattini et al.: 2 samples. Strs are provided in Table 2.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

I quickly looked at Brisighelli, and they don't have anything from "Etruscan" areas, and nor does Sarno et al.

You might want to look at specifically "Etruscan" areas in Tuscany if you're going to rely on private company testing.

Sorry, 3 samples in Grosseto.

Jovialis
08-02-18, 20:41
The E-M123 found in Volterra is probably related to the ones found in La Spezia under E-PH3893, which is under E-L791>Y4970 branch.

https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y4970/

As for in Puglia one on ftdna is positive under the E-Y2947 which another branch under E-L791.

E-L791 seems to be somewhat frequent in Italy.

As for other E-M123 in Puglia, its probably a mix of E-M84 lines and the above 2 mentioned. Definitely some can turn out to Jewish, Puglia had the second strongest Jewish presence after Sicily.

Many Jews from Puglia have been dispersed, I highly doubt they have the "second highest presence" in Italy as you have stated.


By 1540, the last expulsion finally ended Jewish life in Apulia. Most remaining Crypto-Jews were driven so deep underground that their presence finally came to an end as well. Some of the Apulian Jewish refugees fled north. However, most of them settled in Greece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) or the Aegean islands. The Apulian Jews set up new congregations in Corfu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfu), Arta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arta,_Greece) and Salonika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salonika). Sadly, the last remants of the Apulian Jews were murdered during the Holocaust (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Apulia#cite_note-3) [4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Apulia#cite_note-4)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Apulia

Azzurro
08-02-18, 20:44
Many Jews from Puglia have been dispersed, I highly doubt they have the "second highest presence" in Italy as you have stated.

Historically they did, you should read up on it

Valerius
08-02-18, 20:48
So e-m123* is really present in Italy, quite interesting for me.

Jovialis
08-02-18, 20:50
Historically they did, you should read up on it

I have read up on it, and the vast majority was forced out of Puglia or murdered; before that were relegated specific quarters. You should substantiate your claims.

Azzurro
08-02-18, 20:55
I have read up on it, and they a vast majority was forced out of Puglia, and before that were relegated specific quarters. You should substantiate your claims.

Lmfaoo your trying to school me on Italian Jewish history, good luck. This thread is about E-M123* and not Italian Jewish history.

Jovialis
08-02-18, 21:00
You're the one that had brought up the topic.



As for other E-M123 in Puglia, its probably a mix of E-M84 lines and the above 2 mentioned. Definitely some can turn out to Jewish, Puglia had the second strongest Jewish presence after Sicily.

Thus I am responding to it.



Many Jews from Puglia have been dispersed, I highly doubt they have the "second highest presence" in Italy as you have stated

....

I have read up on it, and the vast majority was forced out of Puglia or murdered; before that were relegated specific quarters. You should substantiate your claims.

What kind of a response by you is that?

Obviously you can't divorce history from the conversation of DNA. Why did you make the statement, if you do not wish to discuss it?

Pax Augusta
08-02-18, 21:14
and pax augusta it is 2/113 not 2/117 not taht it make such big difference ...

Right, it's 113, but you know, it doesn't change anything.




The E-M123 found in Volterra is probably related to the ones found in La Spezia under E-PH3893, which is under E-L791>Y4970 branch.

https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y4970/

There are two from La Spezia, Liguria, and they both could be related to Napoleone (E-M34) and likely not to those from Volterra (E-M123*). Related to Napoleone in the sense of having a common ancestor, to be descendant from the same ancestor.



So e-m123* is really present in Italy, quite interesting for me.

According to Karachanak et al. 2013 E-M123 is 1,9% among Bulgarians an they all are E-M34.

Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=large&id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779.g002

Azzurro
08-02-18, 21:18
You're the one that had brought up the topic.



Thus I am responding to it.

What kind of a response by you is that?

Obviously you can't divorce history from the conversation of DNA. Why did you make the statement, if you do not wish to discuss it?

I’m not talking to you, you don’t understand the difference when I say Probably, Could, Had, Likely. Your just looking to pick a fight, i’m not interested.

Azzurro
08-02-18, 21:24
Right, it's 113, but you know, it doesn't change anything.





There are two from La Spezia, Liguria, and they both could be related to Napoleone (E-M34) and likely not to those from Volterra (E-M123*). Related to Napoleone in the sense of having a common ancestor, to be descendant from the same ancestor.




According to Karachanak et al. 2013 E-M123 is 1,9% among Bulgarians.

Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

Pax, yes that is good point, I was saying that E-PH3893 is found in La Spezia geographically its too not far from Volterra, its a good possibility. The thing is even E-M123* is too broad, it could belong to either E-L791 or E-M84 branches.

Jovialis
08-02-18, 21:24
I’m not talking to you, you don’t understand the difference when I say Probably, Could, Had, Likely. Your just looking to pick a fight, i’m not interested.

I am not interested in fighting, I am interested in civil discussion. I asked you why you said Puglia has the 2nd biggest Jewish presence in Italy when It was snuffed out over history. I am merely asking you a question.

However, you have made several offensive assumptions against me in the course of the conversation. That I don't know what I'm talking about as inferred by your comment that my knowledge is apparently inferior to yours on the subject. Also, that I do not understand the difference between basic words. Further, that asking a question is construed as some kind of hostile action.

Azzurro
08-02-18, 21:26
I am not interested in fighting, I am interested in civil discussion. I asked you why you said Puglia has the 2nd biggest jewish presence in Italy when It was snuffed out over history. I am merely asking you a question.

I said Had, look at my post again.

Valerius
08-02-18, 21:26
According to Karachanak et al. 2013 E-M123 is 1,9% among Bulgarians.

Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

Karachenak et al. detected E-M34, so I was told. There is also another Bulgarian who is
like me (xM34) found in some research 18 years ago. My male line is Vlach however, so it must be
also present in the Romanians. Probably common pre-Slavic stuff.

Angela
08-02-18, 21:29
Here is what Maciamo has to say on the subject:

https://i.imgur.com/iV5yDge.png?1

So, I guess you'd have to see if you can run the strs from the Boattini et al sample and see if it can point you to anything more specific. It's not resolved in Grugni.

As for FTDNA, this is the link I looked at. I only scanned it quickly, but I didn't see any Y6923 anywhere in Italy.

There is no E-M123 in Toscana, or even in Puglia, since it was brought up, on this list.

Is there some other source to which I can look? Grugni doesn't resolve it for either place. As I said, there are the three samples in Boattini for which samples can be run.

In the future, if I could ask posters who are speculating about the origin or ethnicity of a specific clade to give us more detailed information about the samples they are using as to number, specific snp or whether strs are being used, and where they can be found. That would be most helpful.

So far as I can see, we only have three unresolved samples in Boattini for Grosseto, for which we at least have strs. The ones for Volterra in Grugni are unresolved and there are no strs.

I don't see any evidence for any specifically "Jewish" clade in Puglia. If anyone has it, please provide it. Indeed, if there are any samples anyone is aware of anywhere other than this, please provide them, so we can see if the conclusions proposed are reasonable.

kingjohn
08-02-18, 21:33
Pax, yes that is good point, I was saying that E-PH3893 is found in La Spezia geographically its too not far from Volterra, its a good possibility. The thing is even E-M123* is too broad, it could belong to either E-L791 or E-M84 branches.

azurro my dear friend
you have a point about apuglia {jewish past}
but the ones here in volterra 2/113 1.8% are e-m123* you can see it in the table angela posted
meaning they were checked for e-m34 mutation and found negetive like valerius
i do think it is significant that they found e-m123% in volterra etruscan area even thoughit is low %
kind regards
adam

Azzurro
08-02-18, 21:36
Here is what Maciamo has to say on the subject:

https://i.imgur.com/iV5yDge.png?1

So, I guess you'd have to see if you can run the strs from the Boattini et al sample and see if it can point you to anything more specific. It's not resolved in Grugni.

As for FTDNA, this is the link I looked at. I only scanned it quickly, but I didn't see any Y6923 anywhere in Italy.

There is no E-M123 in Toscana, or even in Puglia, since it was brought up, on this list.

Is there some other source to which I can look? Grugni doesn't resolve it for either place. As I said, there are the three samples in Boattini for which samples can be run.

In the future, if I could ask posters who are speculating about the origin or ethnicity of a specific clade to give us more detailed information about the samples they are using as to number, specific snp or whether strs are being used, and where they can be found. That would be most helpful.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3b?iframe=ymap

E-Y2947 is found in Bari, Y6923 does not exist in any population besides Ashkenazi Jews. Y6923 was never brought up.

Jovialis
08-02-18, 21:39
I said Had, look at my post again.

Saying a community had been there and that a current line is present makes what you're saying unclear. Moreover, as Angela stated, it was not found in Puglia according to that list. For the sake of the other readers, I will ask that you are clearer. Moreover, if presented with a question, about something you had stated; please respond in a non-confrontational manner.

Azzurro
08-02-18, 21:45
azurro my dear friend
you have a point about apuglia {jewish past}
but the ones here in volterra 2/113 1.8% are e-m123* you can see it in the table angela posted
meaning they were checked for e-m34 mutation and found negetive like valerius
i do think it is significant that they found e-m123% in volterra etruscan area even thoughit is low %
kind regards
adam

Kingjohn my dear friend, thanks for the support. The E-PH3893 found in La Spezia is probably very old, do we know that checked for M34? There are also 2 E-PF6759 found in Sardegna which are on Yfull, this too is under E-M34, if they did actually test for E-M34 and it turns out they are negative it only leaves Valerius’ subclade left.

Angela
08-02-18, 21:47
azurro my dear friend
you have a point about apuglia {jewish past}
but the ones here in volterra 2/113 1.8% are e-m123* you can see it in the table angela posted
meaning they were checked for e-m34 mutation and found negetive like valerius
i do think it is significant that they found e-m123% in volterra etruscan area even thoughit is low %
kind regards
adam

I'd like to understand your reasoning Kingjohn. What do you see in the Volterra results that couldn't be Neolithic, or Chalcolithic? Have you run the STRS in Boattini for this clade? Does that provide a clue? That's Grosseto, but that's also an area with Etruscan ruins.

As for "Jewish" y in Puglia, fine with me if it's there, but what samples are you using to draw that conclusion? I linked to the Italy project at FTDNA, looked up every town with which I wasn't familiar, and only found two for Puglia under "E": one E-M35 and one E-L117.

OkTex
08-02-18, 21:54
Hello,

I was confirmed by FTDNA as E-M123* which is negative for M34 or any other branches. It's a rare haplogroup found in North-Western Iberia, The Middle East and even one case in my country Bulgaria, everywhere in just 1% or less. I want to ask about its presence in Europe - is it possible that E-M123* came to the Balkans with the Neolithic farmers from the Middle East? Or its presence there its due to late migrations like Roman colonists? Is it possible to be determined? My male ancestors are Vlachs who are said to be a mixture of Thracians and Roman colonists - so E-M123* could either be from Romans or Thracians. That's why I'm kinda confused with correlating my haplogroup with historical events. Any ideas? I know that with no branchings I can't compare myself with other E-M123 people so that's why I'm asking if someone knows something more than I do.

Also the distribution map of M123 from Geno 2.0 is different than the one in Eupedia - http://imgur.com/F1EYKue

It looks logical, according to the map, that M123 entered the Balkans from Anatolia and the highlighted area is more or less in the boundaries of Ancient Thrace.

I also have a rare M34- ancestor. In my case the family line surfaces in England ca 1300. My limited research indicates this Haplo was dominant around Lebanon, and It appears that in my case it was brought into England via the Roman Legions ca 100-400CE.

Angela
08-02-18, 21:58
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3b?iframe=ymap

E-Y2947 is found in Bari, Y6923 does not exist in any population besides Ashkenazi Jews. Y6923 was never brought up.

Is that the one sample from Molfetta labeled E-L117? I already listed that. Is your theory of the presence of Jewish "E" in Puglia based on that one sample?

kingjohn
08-02-18, 22:00
Kingjohn my dear friend, thanks for the support. The E-PH3893 found in La Spezia is probably very old, do we know that checked for M34? There are also 2 E-PF6759 found in Sardegna which are on Yfull, this too is under E-M34, if they did actually test for E-M34 and it turns out they are negative it only leaves Valerius’ subclade left.

the ones in volterra are negetive that why i am so damn excited and happy for valerius

Valerius
08-02-18, 22:04
I also have a rare M34- ancestor. In my case the family line surfaces in England ca 1300. My limited research indicates this Haplo was dominant around Lebanon, and It appears that in my case it was brought into England via the Roman Legions ca 100-400CE.

Interesting - does this person uploaded his data to haplozone or Yfull ? I'm aware of 3 people xM34 from England.

kingjohn
08-02-18, 22:05
I'd like to understand your reasoning Kingjohn. What do you see in the Volterra results that couldn't be Neolithic, or Chalcolithic? Have you run the STRS in Boattini for this clade? Does that provide a clue? That's Grosseto, but that's also an area with Etruscan ruins.

As for "Jewish" y in Puglia, fine with me if it's there, but what samples are you using to draw that conclusion? I linked to the Italy project at FTDNA, looked up every town with which I wasn't familiar, and only found two for Puglia under "E": one E-M35 and one E-L117.

dear angela ,
i do think that m123*
could be chl or bronze age presence in this area of italy
anyway much before jews , and pheonician set foot in italy
they could brought e-m34 to italy .....
about the latest research the sample from salento south apuglia are 5.9% e-m34
i am not talking about the greek salento sample whre e-m34 is only 1-2%

kind regards
Adam

p.s
i wish people here would not fight you are all italians you should stick togather

Azzurro
08-02-18, 22:25
Is that the one sample from Molfetta labeled E-L117? I already listed that. Is your theory of the presence of Jewish "E" in Puglia based on that one sample?

Angela, the map I sent is from the E-M35 project, E-Y2947 is not Jewish and its in Bari not Molfetta. Secondly E-M123 branches aren’t the only Jewish branches, E-V12 also has a Jewish lines, and guess what E-V12 is found in Cisterino Brindisi, which Brindisi had a long a Jewish presence, dating back to Titus bringing 5000 Jews to the area.

Azzurro
08-02-18, 22:26
I agree with Kingjohn, Congrats Valerius

Angela
08-02-18, 22:42
dear angela ,
i do think that m123*
could be chl or bronze age presence in this area of italy
anyway much before jews , and pheonician set foot in italy
they could brought e-m34 to italy .....
about the latest research the sample from salento south apuglia are 5.9% e-m34
i am not talking about the greek salento sample whre e-m34 is only 1-2%

kind regards
Adam

p.s
i wish people here would not fight you are all italians you should stick togather

As to Volterra, I thought the question you were raising was whether the E-M123* in Volterra could be connected to Etruscans, and my question was why, even if there was a big migration from the Aegean or western Anatolia, it couldn't be Neolithic as per the quote from Maciamo I posted above.

As to Puglia, OK, you're not talking about Grecia Salentina, where it's 1.2%. You're talking about Apulia as a whole having E-M34 at 5.9%. Fair enough. Perhaps some of that is "Jewish". I don't know.

Again, I'd point to Maciamo's work on E-M34.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

It certainly doesn't seem as if he believes all E-M34 is Jewish, certainly not if it's being spread by Greeks etc. Wouldn't you need more detailed sub-clade information even than that to come to that conclusion?

Is there something else that leads you to believe it is all "Jewish", other than that they are E-M34, and that there used to be Jews there, if that is indeed how you see it?

It would be good to know exactly the areas where the samples are located, as Lucera (up by Foggia) was re-settled with some Saracens from Sicily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_settlement_of_Lucera

As for your final question, this isn't the place to discuss it at length. Let me just say that I don't pick my friends or the opinions with which I agree based on whether a person is Italian, or indeed on anything having to do with ethnicity. In terms of friendship, it is based on character, personality and to some extent on common interests. In terms of opinions, I judge them based on the clarity, specificity, proof presented, logic, etc. that I see exhibited. I distrust anything that seems motivated by emotion or personal agendas of any kind. I also judge them based on the civility with which they're expressed, although I probably shouldn't.

For the record, Molfetta is probably usually listed as Bari.

Angela
08-02-18, 23:20
Angela, the map I sent is from the E-M35 project, E-Y2947 is not Jewish and its in Bari not Molfetta. Secondly E-M123 branches aren’t the only Jewish branches, E-V12 also has a Jewish lines, and guess what E-V12 is found in Cisterino Brindisi, which Brindisi had a long a Jewish presence, dating back to Titus bringing 5000 Jews to the area.

Azzurro, Molfetta is part of Bari. Look it up.

Yes, there are Jewish lines in a lot of E, and J1, and J2, and other groups. In this case, we're talking about "E". The point is, however, that there is no sub-clade resolution to the level of the "Jewish" sub-sub-clades if you want to call it that.

If you see a clade in an area which might have a "Jewish" sub-clade under it, and if there is any Jewish settlement there ever recorded, then you jump to the conclusion that it is probably ALL in that JEWISH clade.

That's because, in my opinion, you want to believe that, or you just said it once and now have to stick to it.

All you would have to say is that some of it could be remnants of Jewish inhabitants from period X, but that we'd need to have further sub-clade resolution for it to be perfectly correct and unimpeachable.

It's this emotional dogmatism that is the problem.

The same is true for the little R1a in Puglia. There's no proof it is specifically SLAVIC from after the Slavic migrations into the Balkans, although it's certainly possible. Possible is not good enough for you. Even absent specific proof, IT HAS TO BE a certain way.

Or, look at clades that can be found in the Near East and in Southern Italy. If it's in Italy it HAS TO BE slaves during the Roman era, or Byzantines only from the Middle East, or Saracens. It can never just possibly be those things, but also possibly from much earlier.

That's why I find so many of your posts problematic.

You make rational, civil discussion of these things impossible.

Azzurro
08-02-18, 23:56
Azzurro, Molfetta is part of Bari. Look it up.

Yes, there are Jewish lines in a lot of E, and J1, and J2, and other groups. In this case, we're talking about "E". The point is, however, that there is no sub-clade resolution to the level of the "Jewish" sub-sub-clades if you want to call it that.

If you see a clade in an area which might have a "Jewish" sub-clade under it, and if there is any Jewish settlement there ever recorded, then you jump to the conclusion that it is probably ALL in that JEWISH clade.

That's because, in my opinion, you want to believe that, or you just said it once and now have to stick to it.

All you would have to say is that some of it could be remnants of Jewish inhabitants from period X, but that we'd need to have further sub-clade resolution for it to be perfectly correct and unimpeachable.

It's this emotional dogmatism that is the problem.

The same is true for the little R1a in Puglia. There's no proof it is specifically SLAVIC from after the Slavic migrations into the Balkans, although it's certainly possible. Possible is not good enough for you. Even absent specific proof, IT HAS TO BE a certain way.

Or, look at clades that can be found in the Near East and in Southern Italy. If it's in Italy it HAS TO BE slaves during the Roman era, or Byzantines only from the Middle East, or Saracens. It can never just possibly be those things, but also possibly from much earlier.

That's why I find so many of your posts problematic.

You make rational, civil discussion of these things impossible.

Angela, yes I saw Molfetta is under the Metropolitan area of Bari.

The problem is no Italian will get those Ashkenazi Jewish subclades simply because of history and bottleneck. Italian Jewish Y lines would belong to older branches.

Look trust me there’s nothing more I would like for civil discussions, I hate this fighting, it really aggravates me and isn’t fun.

Angela
09-02-18, 00:49
^^Then stop stating as dogmatic and incontrovertible FACT things for which you have no proof and perhaps for which no proof will ever be available. It sets people's backs up, because they know in most cases it's far more complicated than you make out.

As an aside, some Southern Italian Jews might have wound up in Ashkenazi areas after fleeing or being expelled from Southern Italy after the Spanish took over. (Most of them, however, seem to have gone to Ottoman areas or North Africa.) Ashkenazi Jews would not have been moving to Southern Italy, generally speaking. I don't know why the the Sephardi Jews and the Ashkenazi Jews might not have shared certain sub-clades.

It's too bad there isn't more detailed sub-clade data posted on the y from strictly Sephardic Jews. The same kind of data from Roman Jews or Italkim Jews would be helpful as well. There are also very well known Italian Jewish families who claim to have been in Italy for hundreds of years. Many of those in Piemonte, in particular, were in Italy since the expulsions from Iberia. It would be nice to know if they have tested to deep sub-clade resolution.

kingjohn
09-02-18, 01:09
the most important thing
people be happy for valerius for those volterra m123* without the e-m34 mutation :)

Jovialis
09-02-18, 01:11
Azzurro, you may think me asking you questions about some of your statements is construed as fighting. It is not; we are engaging in debate, and not everyone is going to agree with some of the things you have said. Moving forward, you should anticipate from time to time, that forum users are going to ask questions. Especially if you make them appear like absolute statements. There is nothing wrong with people disagreeing, as long as we are civil. Please be conscious that making assumptions on incomplete data, that has not been resolved by the experts is not reliable. Thus you should probably defer to academic articles, rather than speculation based on data from private companies. There are a lot of variables to be considered, and we do not want to mislead people. Furthermore, it is important to substantiate claims with links to reputable sources so we may access the data ourselves. I have to say, that I took exception to the comment you made about me not being able to "School" you on Jewish history. I'm not trying to "school" you but rather bringing up salient points in my question to your statement. Everyone on the forum must be objective as possible, and present all of the verified academic data available, so we can further our knowledge.

Ruderico
07-10-18, 01:58
Hello,

I was confirmed by FTDNA as E-M123* which is negative for M34 or any other branches. It's a rare haplogroup found in North-Western Iberia, The Middle East and even one case in my country Bulgaria, everywhere in just 1% or less.
Well hello, cousin, I'm also E-M123*, family from Northern Portugal, which seems to be the place it's less rare :)

kingjohn
10-09-19, 17:57
But was found in 2 indo -aryans from swat valley north pakistan they are E-m123* just like the saka dude from north east kazachstan ,
It look like m123* without the m-34 mutation is indo-aryan or indo-iranian clade aka aryan
Amazing😉😎

Angela
10-09-19, 19:36
But was found in 2 indo -aryans from swat valley north pakistan they are E-m123* just like the saka dude from north east kazachstan ,
It look like m123* without the m-34 mutation is indo-aryan or indo-iranian clade aka aryan
Amazing������������

Why couldn't it already have been there and was just absorbed? I think the same thing happened with E-V13 in the Balkans, and maybe J2b2. I hope we get more ancient samples from that area and perhaps the Carpathians before the arrival of the steppe people.

kingjohn
10-09-19, 21:41
yes it could be native clade(who absorbed the indo-aryan language) to area even though today e1b1b1 generally speaking is rare in pakistan and india.
Regards
Adam

P.s
Anyway it is cool thats why i like ancient dna there are always surprises.... 🤗
Clade who are rare today could have been much more frequent back than...
For example :in armenia bronze age they found 2 e1b1b1c1a individuals today this clade in armenia is only 4-5%.... 😉

Ruderico
11-09-19, 11:53
Kingjohn, all those Swat Valley individuals are E-Y31991 and PF4428, same clade as you say as the Saka outlier (who is also positive for Y134097 and Y168265, likely making him E-Y168273). It was a family grave site, and considering the people buried there were done so with care, and gifts - including gold - they might have been relatively high status in their local area. Looking at the present distribution of E-Y31991 individuals, it seems likely the haplogroup crossed into Europe from the Levant sometime by the neolithic (you can see European and Levantine branches, although the samples are heavily biased in favour of people with European ancestry as is usual in DNA testing) before being absorbed by IE-speaking peoples who moved into Central Asia and became Indo-Iranian/Aryan speaking, at the moment this seems the most parsimonous explanation.

However, considering we're talking about the ancient Gandhara kingdom, I'm a bit skeptical they were Indo-Aryan speakers. For the time being I'm betting on Indo-Iranian, which would make sense considering the Scythian connection and its location in the far NW corner of the subcontinent

kingjohn
11-09-19, 14:27
Ruderico so all of them truly amazing👍
Did someone run the bam file ?
I have aquestion I1992 individual from the paper is realy Belong to E1a haplogroup acording to the bam file ?
Best regards
Adam

Ruderico
11-09-19, 16:01
Yes, I asked two different people to run the BAM files on all yDNA E samples from Swat, and both came up with the same results, all positive for Y31991. It appears two of them (I3262 and I1799) are also positive for PF4428. Since they are all related to each other (it's a family grave, in a clearly patriarchal and patrilocal setting) we can conclude all individuals are PF4428, or at the very least Y31991. I1992 is also related to the other men, so odds are the "E1a" is actually a "E1b" and also Y31991. Probably just an error in the S1 Table, that would be my guess. The other yDNA E individuals on the same table, who are not from the Swat Valley, are not E-Y31991 (for example that in LBA Armenia).

It's quite unfortunate that, eventhough the table has samples from Damgaard's study on Central Asia, they left out the two Central Saka outliers (unlike the other Sakas the outliers have very little "east Asian" ancestry, and present a very western-Steppe profile), one of which is the one you refered to before, DA19. I messaged Narasimhan about the Saka connection and he aknowledged it, but considering it is/was such a rare haplogroup I doubt we'll see it very often in the future, but who knows..I wasn't expecting to ever find my haplogroup and lo and behold there's a whole clan of them in Swat

PS: there's other clades under Y31991 which are not PF4428, those also seem to have Levantine and European connections, again suggesting an old migration from the Middle East to Europe, probably associated with early farming, or perhaps copper working. Naturally this is a bit speculatory, but not non-sensical, I hope.

kingjohn
11-09-19, 19:28
i am always happy when we found e-m123*
and even more of it in ancient dna :good_job:

there is also this dude from the paper he could be e-m123* or e-m35* ?
he passed all the filters in the lab they say in the paper

I2085 .. E1b1b1 Gonur1_BA 2011-1886 calBCE (3580±20 BP, PSUAMS-2313) Turkmenistan

BMAC culture is also indo-iranian culture

Ruderico
11-09-19, 19:33
That one I don't know as I have no idea how to check for SNPs on the BAM files myself. If I get any info on him I'll report back

kingjohn
11-09-19, 20:34
That one I don't know as I have no idea how to check for SNPs on the BAM files myself. If I get any info on him I'll report back

thanks
hope there will be answere about him
p.s
here for the DA19 dude :)
11394

kingjohn
06-10-19, 20:02
1.7% out of large sample of 178 people in tenerife were found as e3b3* without m34 mutation
thats 3/178

table2 : page 143

source:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/99c0/cae850c80ff50b3ba17171203223f8dd86cb.pdf?_ga=2.695 73904.141608191.1570381173-2067647255.1570381173