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View Full Version : Where did haplogroup T first originate ( 2nd Poll with Expanded options )



Alpenjager
20-12-16, 22:35
Allowed multiple choice (This option doesn't seems to work). Thanks for your participation.

LeBrok
21-12-16, 00:35
Enigma to me. Where is the highest diversity of T?

Alpenjager
21-12-16, 03:27
Enigma to me. Where is the highest diversity of T?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Haplogroup_T-M184_tree.png

Sile
21-12-16, 05:01
Allowed multiple choice (This option doesn't seems to work). Thanks for your participation.

I can agree with all 4 choices

but the T Ftdna project state:

the most recent common ancestor of T1 and T2 was a single individual and he might have lived in Azerbaijan, or Bhutan, or somewhere in between, or somewhere a bit further south or west, but I doubt if he or his sons and grandsons travelled very far from the region where they were born. As far as we can tell, after 10000 years only 3 of their descendant lines had survived (two from T1 and one from T2). So we will never know how many branches of T came into existence and then died out in those 10000 years, or how far they spread.

IMO, it is where bactria is on the link below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria

so, it would be the areas Bactrian, Tajik and Kirghiz is today

LeBrok
21-12-16, 06:13
Maybe it showed up in Near East with Caucasian or S-Indian admixture?

Thorbjorn
21-12-16, 19:41
Am I understanding correctly that T probably originated somewhere in Central Asia and then migrated west (the way the Proto-Indoeuropeans are said to have spread out), sort of settling in the Near East area? I think the highest concentration is in the Northeast Africa area. That may be too simplistic. Sicily looks like it has a good representation. I myself am T1a1a, Sicilian on my father's side.

Sile
21-12-16, 20:09
Am I understanding correctly that T probably originated somewhere in Central Asia and then migrated west (the way the Proto-Indoeuropeans are said to have spread out), sort of settling in the Near East area? I think the highest concentration is in the Northeast Africa area. That may be too simplistic. Sicily looks like it has a good representation. I myself am T1a1a, Sicilian on my father's side.

The Armenian DNA ftdna project has this ................although a bit old now

Haplogroup T (http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=68535473), formerly know as K2, has two branches, T1a & T1b, and is found at low frequencies throughout Europe and in parts of the Middle East, North Africa, and West Africa as can be seen in this MAP (http://www.arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAProject/haplogroupTm70frequency.png). Its origins and spread are still mysterious but we are slowly getting more clarity as can be seen in this new large and relatively slow-to-load MAP (http://www.arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAProject/subcladetmapupdated.png). The worldwide distribution of haplogroup T is spotty with some small areas of greater-than-average concentrations. T1a has a more southerly bias from the Near East to Europe and North Africa. T1b has a more northernly bias from the Near East through the Russian plains to Northern Europe.

This is the view of Gareth Henson, administrator of the Haplogroup T project at FTDNA: "I think both T and L originated in the Iraq/Iran region but whereas the branches of L all went in different directions I don't see a similar pattern for T. The main groups are T1a and T1b. Both seem to have spread out together, but T1a shows more variation."

So you would be from the T1a group and myself from the T1b group...............the map below ( also from the site ) while accurate is again oldish

http://www.arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAProject/subcladetmapupdated.png

Thorbjorn
21-12-16, 20:42
The Armenian DNA ftdna project has this ................although a bit old now

[snip]

So you would be from the T1a group and myself from the T1b group...............the map below ( also from the site ) while accurate is again oldish

http://www.arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAProject/subcladetmapupdated.png

You've come through again, thanks. :good_job:

This may be the stuff of a historical fiction novel from my overactive imagination: if T did originate in Central Asia, maybe several men from one family went their separate ways, going north and south, developing new subclades as time passed.

I know, I know... fiction. :wink:

Gedalyah
25-12-16, 22:43
West Asia or Near East not north of the Alpine Belt. Spencer Wells, the geneticist that heads the Genographic Project in search of the scientific "Adam"In the film, Spencer Wells indicated that Thomas Jefferson's Y-Chromosome was "Phoenician", Read more: The National Geographic study "Who were the Phoenicians," revealed that Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States belonged to Y-chromosome Haplogroup K2. The quote from Wells that follows is the scientific explanation of what was discovered in studying Jefferson's DNA.

Alpenjager
27-12-16, 01:45
West Asia or Near East not north of the Alpine Belt. Spencer Wells, the geneticist that heads the Genographic Project in search of the scientific "Adam"In the film, Spencer Wells indicated that Thomas Jefferson's Y-Chromosome was "Phoenician", Read more: The National Geographic study "Who were the Phoenicians," revealed that Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States belonged to Y-chromosome Haplogroup K2. The quote from Wells that follows is the scientific explanation of what was discovered in studying Jefferson's DNA.

This information is outdated. You need to do a little bit of research. The Spencer's Phoenician claim is now proved to be wrong, this claim was pure speculation. K2-M70 is equivalent to T1a but not to T-M184.

You need to update your sources.

Please read to Mendez et al 2011 "The affiliation of the Jefferson haplotype to T1a and the absence of closely related haplotypes (zero to two step mutations away) in the network supports the hypothesis that this haplotype belongs to an ancient rare European Y-chromosome lineage rather than to lineages that recently migrated to Europe from the Near East."

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 03:01
This branch of T has its roots in North Africa and has travelled into Spain and up the Atlantic coast to Britain and Ireland. President Thomas Jefferson's paternal line probably belongs to this group. Feel free to contact Gareth Henson
Administrator, Y-DNA Haplogroup T Project.

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 03:04
Exciting news for members of the T-M184 Haplogroup!

With assistance from Gareth Henson, Family Tree DNA is pleased to announce the introduction of our new T-M184 SNP Pack with a comprehensive list of the essential SNPs for this branch of the T-M184 Haplogroup. The purpose of this test is to identify your terminal SNP on the Y-DNA Tree of mankind.
​During the past few years, the number of SNPs on our tree has increased dramatically. While we are confident you are in Haplogroup T-M184 or a downstream subgroup, you now have the opportunity to expand the depth of your Haplogroup much further with this exclusive test. This test can help you refine your subclade. If you are not sure whether or not this is the right test for you, we recommend contacting the T Haplogroup Project Administrators.

Click the button below to sign in to your kit. Navigate to advanced orders by clicking the Upgrade button at the top of your myFTDNA account page, and be one of the first customers to get the T-M184 SNP Pack at our introductory beta price of $99! Once this beta run is filled, the price will change to $119.

Note to Big Y users: This message is purely informational and you should not purchase this SNP pack unless it includes markers not included in your Big Y test. Please consult your Haplogroup Administrator to see if this SNP pack is right for you.

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 03:07
Mendez 2011
phylogenetic resolution of the Y chromosome haplogroup tree has led to finer temporal and spatial resolution for studies of human migration. Haplogroup T, initially known as K2 and defined by mutation M70, is found at variable frequencies across West Asia, Africa, and Europe. While several SNPs were recently discovered that extended the length of the branch leading to haplogroup T, only two SNPs are known to mark internal branches of haplogroup T. This low level of phylogenetic resolution has hindered studies of the origin and dispersal of this interesting haplogroup, which is found in Near Eastern non-Jewish populations, Jewish populations from several communities, and in the patrilineage of President Thomas Jefferson. Here we map 10 new SNPs that, together with the previously known SNPs, mark 11 lineages and two large subclades (T1a and T1b) of haplogroup T. We also report a new SNP that links haplogroups T and L within the major framework of Y chromosome evolution. Estimates of the timing of the branching events within haplogroup T, along with a comprehensive geographic survey of the major T subclades, suggest that this haplogroup began to diversify in the Near East -25 kya. Our survey also points to a complex history of dispersal of this rare and informative haplogroup within the Near East and from the Near East to Europe and sub-Saharan Africa. The presence of T1a2 chromosomes in Near Eastern Jewish and non-Jewish populations may reflect early exiles between the ancient lands of Israel and Babylon. The presence of different subclades of T chromosomes in Europe may be explained by both the spread of Neolithic farmers and the later dispersal of Jews from the Near East. Finally, the moderately high frequency (-18%) of T1b* chromosomes in the Lemba of southern Africa supports the hypothesis of a Near Eastern, but not necessarily a Jewish, origin for their paternal line.

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 03:10
Issa clan in Somalia has over 80% T-M184 the most in the world and we aren't talking about test sample sizes of 2 people or a small hand full.

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 03:19
After 10 post I can send all the links and photos to West Asia or North Africa scattered throughout the several continents Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Europe, and Australia found at level amongst all Indigenous Aboriginal of not only Europe, but it's ancient everywhere not only Europe it Himalaya.

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 03:23
is the view of Gareth Henson, administrator of the Haplogroup T project at FTDNA: "I think both T and L originated in the Iraq/Iran region but whereas the branches of L all went in different directions I don't see a similar pattern for T. The main groups are T1a and T1b. Both seem to have spread out together, but T1a shows more variation."

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 03:24
The worldwide distribution of haplogroup T is spotty with some small areas of greater-than-average concentrations. T1a has a more southerly bias from the Near East to Europe and North Africa. T1b has a more northernly bias from the Near East through the Russian plains to Northern Europe.

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 03:27
11) I will start with this can you explain
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Alpine_DNA_Project_AlpGen_Genealogy?iframe=yresult s

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 03:30
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany?iframe=yresults This test 0% in Germany

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 03:33
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-K2/default.aspx?section=yresults

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 03:35
T - The Y-DNA Haplogroup T (former K2) Project- Background
Administrators
Gareth Henson [email protected] , Group Administrator
[email protected] , Group Co-Administrator
[email protected] , Group Co-Administrator
Hovann Simonian [email protected] , Group Co-Administrator
Peter Hrechdakian [email protected] , Group Co-Administrator
Background
** IMPORTANT MESSAGE APRIL 2014. FOLLOWING THE RELEASE OF THE NEW FTDNA/GENOGRAPHIC HAPLOGROUP TREE THERE ARE A LARGE NUMBER OF NEW SNPS AVAILABLE FOR ORDERING INDIVIDUALLY. FOR GUIDANCE ON WHICH SNP(S) TO ORDER PLEASE FIND YOUR KIT NUMBER ON THE Y-DNA RESULTS PAGE AND LOOK AT THE DESCRIPTION FOR YOUR GROUP. IF YOU ARE UNSURE OF WHICH SNP TO ORDER PLEASE CONTACT THE GROUP ADMINISTRATORS. **


This project welcomes anyone who has been predicted or SNP-tested as Y-Haplogroup T.
Haplogroup T (known as Haplogroup K2 until May 2008) is defined by SNP M184 and is found at low frequencies in the Middle East, Europe and North Africa. Most lines in T belong to subgroup T1a defined by SNP M70 which until March 2011 was considered equivalent to M184.
T1a in turn splits into T1a1 (T-L162), T1a2 (T-L131) and T1a3 (T-L1255).
T1a1 clusters along an east-west axis from Iran to Spain. T1a2 is found both in northern Europe and southern Africa but is rarer in the eastern and western edges of T's distribution zone. To date, T1a3 has only been found in Kuwait.

Recent developments including the Geno 2.0 chip have identified the following major subgroups of T1a:

T-L208 (T1a1a* on the current ISOGG tree http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html)
T-Z709 (T1a1a1*)
T-P77 (T1a1a1a)
T-P322 (T1a2a)
T-L446 (T1a2b)
Most lineages in T will belong to one of these 5 branches. The first two are strictly speaking paragroups and may split into several branches when more data is available.

Thomas Jefferson is believed to have belonged to haplogroup T, based on tests carried out on individuals sharing his paternal line.
For more information on T and the Jefferson family link see:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/114108057/ABSTRACT
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6332545

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 03:41
During the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age haplogroup T would have been an important (though probably not dominant) lineage among ancient peoples such as Sumerians, the Babylonians and the Assyrians.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml 2016 updated

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 03:43
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Arab_T/default.aspx?section=yresults more then Europeans

Sile
27-12-16, 06:19
West Asia or Near East not north of the Alpine Belt. Spencer Wells, the geneticist that heads the Genographic Project in search of the scientific "Adam"In the film, Spencer Wells indicated that Thomas Jefferson's Y-Chromosome was "Phoenician", Read more: The National Geographic study "Who were the Phoenicians," revealed that Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States belonged to Y-chromosome Haplogroup K2. The quote from Wells that follows is the scientific explanation of what was discovered in studying Jefferson's DNA.

you have mis read it.................it is not alpine belt

it is alpide belt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpide_belt

Sile
27-12-16, 06:21
This branch of T has its roots in North Africa and has travelled into Spain and up the Atlantic coast to Britain and Ireland. President Thomas Jefferson's paternal line probably belongs to this group. Feel free to contact Gareth Henson
Administrator, Y-DNA Haplogroup T Project.

Thomas Jefferson line arrived in egypt ~9000BC form the northern Levant ...............then went to Spain and then Wales

Sile
27-12-16, 06:23
Issa clan in Somalia has over 80% T-M184 the most in the world and we aren't talking about test sample sizes of 2 people or a small hand full.

Issa clan or do you mean the DIR clan which originates on the border of ethiopia and somali

Sile
27-12-16, 06:25
is the view of Gareth Henson, administrator of the Haplogroup T project at FTDNA: "I think both T and L originated in the Iraq/Iran region but whereas the branches of L all went in different directions I don't see a similar pattern for T. The main groups are T1a and T1b. Both seem to have spread out together, but T1a shows more variation."

He said to me , less than a month ago

the most recent common ancestor of T1 and T2 was a single individual and he might have lived in Azerbaijan, or Bhutan, or somewhere in between, or somewhere a bit further south or west, but I doubt if he or his sons and grandsons travelled very far from the region where they were born. As far as we can tell, after 10000 years only 3 of their descendant lines had survived (two from T1 and one from T2). So we will never know how many branches of T came into existence and then died out in those 10000 years, or how far they spread.

Sile
27-12-16, 06:29
During the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age haplogroup T would have been an important (though probably not dominant) lineage among ancient peoples such as Sumerians, the Babylonians and the Assyrians.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml 2016 updated

there has been found 2 x T1a ydna ancient samples 7000 years old

Haplogroup T1a (PF5604) has been found in two out of two 7500–6800 ybp individuals from Karsdorf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karsdorf), Sachsen-Anhalt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachsen-Anhalt), Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany). Both T1a skeletal remains belong to the Linienbandkeramische Kultur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture). T1a from Karsdorf constitutes 22.2% of all ancient samples between 7500 and 6800 ybp in Germany. The remainder belong to other clades: 22.2% are H2 carriers from Derenburg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derenburg), and the remaining 55.6% are G2a bearers from Halberstadt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberstadt) and Derenburg. These ancient specimens' mtDNA haplogroups have been found to be H1*/H1au1b and H46b. Their autosomal ancestral components also consist of around 70% Western European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and 30% Basal Eurasian.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184#cite_note-Haak2015-11)

The Karsdorf site is located in the valley of Unstrut, Burgenlandkreis, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany. The slope on which Karsdorf sits is characterized by alluvial loess. The place itself was settled intensively since the earliest phase of the Linear Pottery culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture) (LBK) in the region.


If they are in Germany in this period of time , then where did they come from?

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 06:30
Maps of Europe’s ancient tribes and Y-DNA.jpg 700 AD

Sile
27-12-16, 06:32
During the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age haplogroup T would have been an important (though probably not dominant) lineage among ancient peoples such as Sumerians, the Babylonians and the Assyrians.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml 2016 updated

old info .........

I also suggest you ignore any ftdna or 23andme or natgeno , ancestry etc etc, as they are using data of modern people and that alone tells us nothing of the history of that marker or any other marker.

Sile
27-12-16, 06:33
Maps of Europe’s ancient tribes and Y-DNA.jpg 700 AD

I do not understand what you are saying

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 06:50
8313Map Of Ancient European Tribes and Y-DNA 7000 BC

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 06:53
831483158316Map Of Ancient European Tribes and Y-DNA 2000 BC - 1227 AD

Sile
27-12-16, 07:00
8313Map Of Ancient European Tribes and Y-DNA 7000 BC

Thats is 8950 years ago

Sile
27-12-16, 07:01
831483158316Map Of Ancient European Tribes and Y-DNA 2000 BC - 1227 AD

the maps do not work ............you need eupedia approval

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 07:55
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-K2/default.aspx?section=yresults scattered unlike any other DNA

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 07:56
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsbQgbfeF9M Haplogroup
T, FTDNA BENNET GREENSPAN Today is Jewish

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 07:59
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_9M6vUJq_oMy Ancestry Results Puerto Rican ' Hebrew Israelite

Sile
27-12-16, 10:06
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsbQgbfeF9M Haplogroup
T, FTDNA BENNET GREENSPAN Today is Jewish

I do not see what this video is about

Maybe you are in the religious theory of DNA, so here is a link
'
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=FB08DAAAQBAJ&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=LT+haplogroup&source=bl&ots=6h5Mx9gkVw&sig=uuBnbfYGe4X6IyNkoA90c8EC2-A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8862ggZTRAhWCHpQKHUtzD08Q6AEIaDAJ#v=on epage&q=LT%20haplogroup&f=false


Madai, falls into the area where Gareth Henson and the T project people sate as a possible begininng of T after slitting from LT group
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Noahsworld_map_Version2.png

..............................
but every T ydna has this marker , see below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_LT

.................................
This marker as per GeneticAtlas in 2010 states its origins in the Sind valley of North India

One should also have this marker which is prior to LT , see below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K-M9

.........................

T haplogroup was once called K2

now it is called K1 , because it is older

so K1a = L haplogroup
and
K1b = T haplogroup

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 17:03
Y-DNA haplogroup K-M9 is an old lineage that arose approximately 47,000 years ago, probably in South Asia or West Asia not North.

The basal paragroup K* is exceptionally rare, although it has been reported at low frequencies in various parts of Eurasia, Oceania and Africa.

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 17:05
Y-DNA haplogroup LT is an old lineage widely distributed at low concentrations. It was established approximately 30,000-40,000 years ago, probably in South Asia or West Asia not North of Alpide

No confirmed cases of the basal paragroup LT* have been identified.

Its descendants are found mainly in populations indigenous to Europe, West Asia, South Asia and Northeast Africa.

L-M20 is found at its highest frequency in Pakistan, Western India, among the Balochs of Afghanistan.

T-M184 is most common in the Horn of Africa, (especially Somaliland, Djibouti and Ethiopia), Arabia, Iran, some regions in Europe and in Eastern India.

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 17:07
You asked me to please read the only study you said is but have you?
Mendez 2011
phylogenetic resolution of the Y chromosome haplogroup tree has led to finer temporal and spatial resolution for studies of human migration. Haplogroup T, initially known as K2 and defined by mutation M70, is found at variable frequencies across West Asia, Africa, and Europe. While several SNPs were recently discovered that extended the length of the branch leading to haplogroup T, only two SNPs are known to mark internal branches of haplogroup T. This low level of phylogenetic resolution has hindered studies of the origin and dispersal of this interesting haplogroup, which is found in Near Eastern non-Jewish populations, Jewish populations from several communities, and in the patrilineage of President Thomas Jefferson. Here we map 10 new SNPs that, together with the previously known SNPs, mark 11 lineages and two large subclades (T1a and T1b) of haplogroup T. We also report a new SNP that links haplogroups T and L within the major framework of Y chromosome evolution. Estimates of the timing of the branching events within haplogroup T, along with a comprehensive geographic survey of the major T subclades, suggest that this haplogroup began to diversify in the Near East -25 kya. Our survey also points to a complex history of dispersal of this rare and informative haplogroup within the Near East and from the Near East to Europe and sub-Saharan Africa. The presence of T1a2 chromosomes in Near Eastern Jewish and non-Jewish populations may reflect early exiles between the ancient lands of Israel and Babylon. The presence of different subclades of T chromosomes in Europe may be explained by both the spread of Neolithic farmers and the later dispersal of Jews from the Near East. Finally, the moderately high frequency (-18%) of T1b* chromosomes in the Lemba of southern Africa supports the hypothesis of a Near Eastern, but not necessarily a Jewish, origin for their paternal line.

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 17:08
You must read and learn
Mendez 2011
phylogenetic resolution of the Y chromosome haplogroup tree has led to finer temporal and spatial resolution for studies of human migration. Haplogroup T, initially known as K2 and defined by mutation M70, is found at variable frequencies across West Asia, Africa, and Europe. While several SNPs were recently discovered that extended the length of the branch leading to haplogroup T, only two SNPs are known to mark internal branches of haplogroup T. This low level of phylogenetic resolution has hindered studies of the origin and dispersal of this interesting haplogroup, which is found in Near Eastern non-Jewish populations, Jewish populations from several communities, and in the patrilineage of President Thomas Jefferson. Here we map 10 new SNPs that, together with the previously known SNPs, mark 11 lineages and two large subclades (T1a and T1b) of haplogroup T. We also report a new SNP that links haplogroups T and L within the major framework of Y chromosome evolution. Estimates of the timing of the branching events within haplogroup T, along with a comprehensive geographic survey of the major T subclades, suggest that this haplogroup began to diversify in the Near East -25 kya. Our survey also points to a complex history of dispersal of this rare and informative haplogroup within the Near East and from the Near East to Europe and sub-Saharan Africa. The presence of T1a2 chromosomes in Near Eastern Jewish and non-Jewish populations may reflect early exiles between the ancient lands of Israel and Babylon. The presence of different subclades of T chromosomes in Europe may be explained by both the spread of Neolithic farmers and the later dispersal of Jews from the Near East. Finally, the moderately high frequency (-18%) of T1b* chromosomes in the Lemba of southern Africa supports the hypothesis of a Near Eastern, but not necessarily a Jewish, origin for their paternal line.

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 17:25
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenaz
Hebrew Bible. In the genealogies of the Hebrew Bible, Ashkenaz (Hebrew: אַשְׁכְּנַז 'Aškănaz) was a descendant of Noah. He was the first son of Gomer and brother of Riphath and Togarmah (Genesis 10:3, 1 Chronicles 1:6), with Gomer being the grandson of Noah through Japheth. J2 Haplogroup Ashkenazi Jews don't fit Scripture as does AT,BT,CT,DE,FT, KT,LT, T scattered throughout the 4corners in indigenous peoples Africa Asia Australia America and 1% in Europe, J can't say that.

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 17:35
Look at I to understand J they possible are Esau and K is northern sons of Jacob by way of Abraham F, DE being the Southern sons of Jacob by Shemite origins. Look at the Andaman islands D and K L P, haplogroup T Lemba at 18% this people are not Japheth.

Gedalyah
27-12-16, 17:38
Look at I to understand J they possible are Esau and K is northern sons of Jacob by way of Abraham FT. The Andaman islands D and K L P haplogroup T found in the Lemba this people are not Japheth

Angela
27-12-16, 18:25
We have moved far beyond looking for genetics answers in religious texts. Please read the scientific papers that have been posted upthread.

Sile
27-12-16, 18:34
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenaz
Hebrew Bible. In the genealogies of the Hebrew Bible, Ashkenaz (Hebrew: אַשְׁכְּנַז 'Aškănaz) was a descendant of Noah. He was the first son of Gomer and brother of Riphath and Togarmah (Genesis 10:3, 1 Chronicles 1:6), with Gomer being the grandson of Noah through Japheth. J2 Haplogroup Ashkenazi Jews don't fit Scripture as does AT,BT,CT,DE,FT, KT,LT, T scattered throughout the 4corners in indigenous peoples Africa Asia Australia America and 1% in Europe, J can't say that.

I do not care what these religious people say.

the link below is the current y Dna tree for every haplogroup

T haplogroup comes from the K group

https://www.yfull.com/tree/

Alpenjager
27-12-16, 22:52
is the view of Gareth Henson, administrator of the Haplogroup T project at FTDNA: "I think both T and L originated in the Iraq/Iran region but whereas the branches of L all went in different directions I don't see a similar pattern for T. The main groups are T1a and T1b. Both seem to have spread out together, but T1a shows more variation."

The Gareth's view by November was "Well, the most recent common ancestor of T1 and T2 was a single individual and he might have lived in Azerbaijan, or Bhutan, or somewhere in between, or somewhere a bit further south or west, but I doubt if he or his sons and grandsons travelled very far from the region where they were born." This is his most recent known view.

He have the same information as all of us up to date: One T2 member from Germany, one T2 member from a Flemish colony, one T2 member from the Kura-Araks Basin and one T2 member from Bhutan. This is Two T2 members from the North European Plain, one from the north of the Alpide belt in west Asia and one from the Himalayas. The last word would be when all of them test with BigY or Y-Elite 2.0 and then we will know who of them is most basally splitted.

The T ancestor could have lived anywhere between North European Plain and Himalayas.

Rethel
27-12-16, 23:29
Is there any place, where T1* and T2* can be found together?

T is so scattered, that it could be, that it is Canaanite hg...
Also almost all places where it is, can be explain by known wanderings of them.
But there is to many but, from the other sides, so...

Sile
28-12-16, 00:28
Is there any place, where T1* and T2* can be found together?

T is so scattered, that it could be, that it is Canaanite hg...
Also almost all places where it is, can be explain by known wanderings of them.
But there is to many but, from the other sides, so...

IMO

LT-L298 (~48000ybp ) where, according to geneticAtlas in 2010 ( if they are correct ) are from Sind-Valley northern India .............I am unsure , but ?

from ~44000ybp T-M184 was created in the upper alpide belt ( I agree with Alpenjager)

T-M184 split into T2-PH110 branch as well as T-L206 branch

Below are the SNP's for T2 as per isogg T

T2 PH110, PH196, PH478, PH526, PH550, PH768, PH933, PH1092, PH1106, PH1172, PH1268, PH1294, PH1343, PH1378, PH1434, PH1457, PH1546, PH1579, PH1583, PH1633, PH1691, PH1841, PH1867, PH1883, PH2017, PH2156, PH2279, PH2292, PH2328, PH2855, PH2861, PH2900, PH2933, PH2990, PH3010, PH3131, PH3150, PH3341, PH3399, PH3422, PH3474, PH3561, PH3721, PH3842, PH3862, PH3868, PH3922, PH3943, PH3996, PH4121, PH4216, PH4431, PH4591, PH4676, PH4746, PH4802, PH4834, PH4842, PH4892, PH4935, PH5136, PH5171, PH5181, PH5212, PH5256, PH5433

Alpenjager
28-12-16, 03:01
IMO

LT-L298 (~48000ybp ) where, according to geneticAtlas in 2010 ( if they are correct ) are from Sind-Valley northern India .............I am unsure , but ?

from ~44000ybp T-M184 was created in the upper alpide belt ( I agree with Alpenjager)

T-M184 split into T2-PH110 branch as well as T-L206 branch

Below are the SNP's for T2 as per isogg T

T2 PH110, PH196, PH478, PH526, PH550, PH768, PH933, PH1092, PH1106, PH1172, PH1268, PH1294, PH1343, PH1378, PH1434, PH1457, PH1546, PH1579, PH1583, PH1633, PH1691, PH1841, PH1867, PH1883, PH2017, PH2156, PH2279, PH2292, PH2328, PH2855, PH2861, PH2900, PH2933, PH2990, PH3010, PH3131, PH3150, PH3341, PH3399, PH3422, PH3474, PH3561, PH3721, PH3842, PH3862, PH3868, PH3922, PH3943, PH3996, PH4121, PH4216, PH4431, PH4591, PH4676, PH4746, PH4802, PH4834, PH4842, PH4892, PH4935, PH5136, PH5171, PH5181, PH5212, PH5256, PH5433

This map show pretty well the haplogroup L-M20 distribution:

8341

If someone take into account the distribution of both T-M184 and L-M20 basally splitted branches, T2 and L2, none never will though on a "South Asian" origin for LT but instead all points to the same possible area of origin as we can see for T-M184.

Gedalyah
28-12-16, 20:41
T is West Asia or North Africa

Alpenjager
29-12-16, 01:02
T is West Asia or North Africa

Your posts are being useless. I recomend you to do some research before spitting claims without any sense. Also, you should update your sources and keep away your religious tendences.

Gedalyah
30-12-16, 19:17
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GedalYah this is my wiki page . I have been studying Haplogroup T for over 2 years. I recently saw claims of the north of the Aplide belt (Asia)and alpine(Europe) on wiki but no sources have been made public. I have been looking everywhere for this Research claim of new information but nothing, so can you show me what research I have missed. please send link

Sile
30-12-16, 20:01
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GedalYah this is my wiki page . I have been studying Haplogroup T for over 2 years. I recently saw claims of the north of the Aplide belt (Asia)and alpine(Europe) on wiki but no sources have been made public. I have been looking everywhere for this Research claim of new information but nothing, so can you show me what research I have missed. please send link

You really need to check the ages ( year formed ) in the T tree in yfull to understand what you say makes no sense.

halfalp
04-01-17, 17:39
My guess gonna be Mesopotamia, for the last 10'000 years, but i'm not sure, T could also be like J or L ( ??? ) minor haplogroups of basal F,G,H in the Alpin Belt and then after the migration with the neolithic, become a primarly haplogroup.

Sile
04-01-17, 21:03
My guess gonna be Mesopotamia, for the last 10'000 years, but i'm not sure, T could also be like J or L ( ??? ) minor haplogroups of basal F,G,H in the Alpin Belt and then after the migration with the neolithic, become a primarly haplogroup.

It is confirmed as south caspian area , north of the zargos mountains...............no where near mesopotamia .......along with L
J2 is caucasus

And it is alpide belt and not alpine

cheers

Alpenjager
04-01-17, 23:17
My guess gonna be Mesopotamia, for the last 10'000 years, but i'm not sure, T could also be like J or L ( ??? ) minor haplogroups of basal F,G,H in the Alpin Belt and then after the migration with the neolithic, become a primarly haplogroup.

J is a completly different lineage but is found in the Paleolithic North Europe and Caucasus.
L haplogroup most probably have their origins somewhere between Europe and Caspian sea.
G and H are less closely related than J or I. Most probably G and H first meet T in the early Neolithic.

Gedalyah
05-01-17, 01:37
Show any research that uses the word Alpide Belt or North of the Alpine Belt Europe and Himalaya? This is made up. Like I stated I have studied genetics for over two years

Alpenjager
05-01-17, 07:14
Show any research that uses the word Alpide Belt or North of the Alpine Belt Europe and Himalaya? This is made up. Like I stated I have studied genetics for over two years

You go again and again but finally you only hear your own religious voice. So, I wonder why you keep asking compulsively.

Then, go with another try:

1. There is still NO published research on T-M184 (xL206).
2. There is only one T-M184 (xL206) sample found in a published paper. And this individual is from Himalaya.
3. Only one T1-L206 sample is used in a unique paper.
4. There are only 4 known T-M184 (xL206) individuals up to date. 3 found in FTDNA (1 of them in YFULL) and the other one is found in the Hallast paper.
5. 4 out of 4 are from North of the Alpide belt: North European Plain, Kura-Araks basin and Himalayas.
6. "Alpine belt Europe" You have a mess.
7. Two years, Congratulations.

Megalophias
05-01-17, 09:53
Since when is Bhutan north of the Himalayas, or Kura-Araxes Basin north of the Caucasus?

Sile
05-01-17, 10:58
Since when is Bhutan north of the Himalayas, or Kura-Araxes Basin north of the Caucasus?

Bhutan is on the humalayan mountains

Bhutan (/buːˈtɑːn/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English); འབྲུག་ཡུལ་ druk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druk) yul), officially the Kingdom of Bhutan (འབྲུག་རྒྱལ་ཁབ་ druk gyal khap),[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutan#cite_note-Driem478-10) is a landlocked country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landlocked_country) and the second largest Himalayan state (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himalayan_states) in Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia). Located in the Eastern Himalayas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Himalayas),


As for Kura-Araxes, it is north of the Zargos mountains...and the Zargos mountains are part of the Alpide belt

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Alpiner_Gebirgsg%C3%BCrtel.png

Looks north of the Alpide belt to me

from:
Cyprus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus) (Troodos Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troodos_Mountains)), Taurus Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_Mountains), Zagros Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagros_Mountains), Makran (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makran) Highland, Sulaiman Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulaiman_Mountains), Karakoram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakoram), Himalayas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himalayas), Patkai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patkai), Chin Hills (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_Hills), Arakan Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arakan_Mountains), Andaman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andaman_Islands) and Nicobar Islands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicobar_Islands) in South Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia).

Gedalyah
06-01-17, 07:53
Alpide shows up as a misspelling on any spell check lol see for yourself

Gedalyah
06-01-17, 08:02
Kingdom of Bhutan looks on it but not north of it but what about Andhra Pradesh, West Bengal, Uttara Kannada 13% or H.O.A. and North Africa, Dir and ISSA? Sir these people are not Europeans.

Zagros Mountains are 0°32'29.3%22N+56°36'41.9%22E parallel with Israel FYI

31°29'59.5"N 50°26'35.3"E

Alpenjager
06-01-17, 10:26
Since when is Bhutan north of the Himalayas, or Kura-Araxes Basin north of the Caucasus?

8361 I think that is pretty clear. According with the three positions, do you think is most in line with the North of the Alpide belt or instead with the south of the Alpide belt?

Alpenjager
06-01-17, 10:31
Kingdom of Bhutan looks on it but not north of it but what about Andhra Pradesh, West Bengal, Uttara Kannada 13% or H.O.A. and North Africa, Dir and ISSA? Sir these people are not Europeans.

Zagros Mountains are 0°32'29.3%22N+56°36'41.9%22E parallel with Israel FYI

31°29'59.5"N 50°26'35.3"E

Are you understanding what we are talking about here? All haplogroup T members in Andhra Pradesh, West Bengal, Uttara Kannada and HOA are belonging to subclades of T1a1a-L208. They all are useless to predict T-M184 origin. Because of that we are using the most basal branch known up to date T2-PH110.

Megalophias
06-01-17, 16:57
8361 I think that is pretty clear. According with the three positions, do you think is most in line with the North of the Alpide belt or instead with the south of the Alpide belt?
Why on earth do you insist on describing it in terms of the Alpide belt? Two out of three are *not* north of the Alpide belt, so that is a terrible description. Personally I would call it "Eurasian, very rare". Distribution based on such a small number of samples is mere illusion caused by sample bias.

Sile
06-01-17, 18:53
Why on earth do you insist on describing it in terms of the Alpide belt? Two out of three are *not* north of the Alpide belt, so that is a terrible description. Personally I would call it "Eurasian, very rare". Distribution based on such a small number of samples is mere illusion caused by sample bias.


?

The map he presented show north of the alpide ...............Iran is north of the alpide, basically the zargos mountains and north of these mountains is the same as north of the alpide belt

Basic principal is that all people populated Mesopotamia from north of the zargos mountains ....................even today's paper of SW-Asia ( arabian peninsula ) states that the ydna of the peninsula came via the Caucasus mountains ............there are ~8500 samples

Alpenjager
06-01-17, 20:26
Why on earth do you insist on describing it in terms of the Alpide belt? Two out of three are *not* north of the Alpide belt, so that is a terrible description. Personally I would call it "Eurasian, very rare". Distribution based on such a small number of samples is mere illusion caused by sample bias.

All haplogroups have been described as better as possible using the available information. Even Spencer Wells with much less evidences claimed 10 years ago that T1a-M70 was of Phoenician origin (not just Levantine, Near Eastern or West Asian) Now proved to be absolutly wrong. Why on earth we shouldn't do it with T-M184?

T-M184 is "Eurasian", yes. And is "very rare", yes. But we can't use the available information to try to predict as better as possible, why? Just because of you? I think is fairly safe crossing all the information available, not just although especially important T2-PH110 but also L-M20 and T1-L206 basal branches together with ancientDNA findings.

Megalophias
06-01-17, 20:55
All haplogroups have been described as better as possible using the available information. Even Spencer Wells with much less evidences claimed 10 years ago that T-M70 was of Phoenician origin (not just Levantine, Near Eastern or West Asian) Now proved to be absolutly wrong. Why on earth we shouldn't do it with T-M184?
Describing its distribution as "north of the Alpide belt" is not describing it as well as possible: it is describing it very badly.

You can of course do whatever you want, but if you have very little information to go on, then you are likely to be as wrong as Spencer Wells.

Alpenjager
06-01-17, 21:49
Two out of three are *not* north of the Alpide belt
There are 4 samples but three geographical points. Please read the previous posts in this thread.


Describing its distribution as "north of the Alpide belt" is not describing it as well as possible: it is describing it very badly.

You can of course do whatever you want, but if you have very little information to go on, then you are likely to be as wrong as Spencer Wells.

Yes, very badly but I'm satisfied to be in the same line of opinon as Gareth Henson, administrator of FTDNA haplogroup T project, who points to some places in the north of the Alpide belt.

8362 All T2-PH110 known samples: Most basal known branch of T-M184. All L2-L595 known samples: Most basal known branch of L-M20. All T1b known samples: Most basal known T1-L206 branch.

By the way, curiously you have created your Eupedia account just for post here. A bit suspicious. Of course, you can do what you want. Welcome to the forum Erudite. :)

Megalophias
06-01-17, 22:05
By the way, curiously you have created your Eupedia account just for post here. A bit suspicious. Of course, you can do what you want. Welcome to the forum Erudite. :)
Thanks. Actually I registered three months ago (after much lurking) and first posted on the Iberomaurusian aDNA thread. Honestly I am just posting now to avoid doing real work.

Sile
06-01-17, 22:12
There are 4 samples but three geographical points. Please read the previous posts in this thread.



Yes, very badly but I'm satisfied to be in the same line of opinon as Gareth Henson, administrator of FTDNA haplogroup T project, who points to some places in the north of the Alpide belt.

8362 All T2-PH110 known samples: Most basal known branch of T-M184. All L2-L595 known samples: Most basal known branch of L-M20. All L1b known samples: Most basal known T1-L206 branch.

By the way, curiously you have created your Eupedia account just for post here. A bit suspicious. Of course, you can do what you want. Welcome to the forum Erudite. :)

the only way to show people is to plot the markers via a map the ages as they are listed in Yfull

then you will see the pattern of age and maybe even migration of the T

Alpenjager
06-01-17, 22:41
the only way to show people is to plot the markers via a map the ages as they are listed in Yfull

then you will see the pattern of age and maybe even migration of the T

The most effective way to predict T-M184 origin is crossing T2 sample distribution vs L2 and T1b samples. Also we could use samples belonging to basal branches of T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3 combined.

8363 Adding the most basal T1a-M70 samples of L446, PH141, L162, Y11675, Y8614.

Angela
06-01-17, 23:02
Thanks. Actually I registered three months ago (after much lurking) and first posted on the Iberomaurusian aDNA thread. Honestly I am just posting now to avoid doing real work.

Join the club. :)

Your contributions are very astute. Happy to have you.

Azzurro
06-01-17, 23:21
It is confirmed as south caspian area , north of the zargos mountains...............no where near mesopotamia .......along with L
J2 is caucasus

And it is alpide belt and not alpine

cheers

I think it is great how dedicated you are to researching the history of T, I am sure that you will find out the answer in future with upcoming ancient dna samples. As for J2, I don't personally think it is Caucasian in origin, and that I believe it formed in the area just south, around the Zagros/Lake Van or Western Iranian plateau.

Megalophias
06-01-17, 23:56
Happy to have you.
Thanks! Nice place you've got here.

Sile
07-01-17, 00:22
I think it is great how dedicated you are to researching the history of T, I am sure that you will find out the answer in future with upcoming ancient dna samples. As for J2, I don't personally think it is Caucasian in origin, and that I believe it formed in the area just south, around the Zagros/Lake Van or Western Iranian plateau.



thanks

today new paper - which I included in another thread states

The earliest dates, with the oldest differentiations for J2 at 8.4 ka, and J1 at 8.9 ka, show an early divergence between the Caucasus from the rest of the populations.

But lake Van is close enough

In regards to T ............why not be dedicated to my line ..........with a completed YFull ( early Feb 2017 for STR ) I am a new branch along with an eastern Frenchman who is 600 years younger than me ...........an indication my line went north from the Alps ...IMO

Azzurro
07-01-17, 02:21
thanks

today new paper - which I included in another thread states

The earliest dates, with the oldest differentiations for J2 at 8.4 ka, and J1 at 8.9 ka, show an early divergence between the Caucasus from the rest of the populations.

But lake Van is close enough

In regards to T ............why not be dedicated to my line ..........with a completed YFull ( early Feb 2017 for STR ) I am a new branch along with an eastern Frenchman who is 600 years younger than me ...........an indication my line went north from the Alps ...IMO

My pleasure,

Of course, as am I with J2, I did BigY and transferred my results to Yfull in August, I just got my Str results 2 days ago, J2 has many subclades and I think it hard to pinpoint one exact location for all of them, there is definitely a migration of J2 to the Caucasus. I have formulated for the L210 and Pre-L210 lineages and the down streams, Pre-L210 kits (they have all the upstreams but are negative for L210) seem to be either Lebanese or Syrian, L210 and down streams have a much wider diversity. What did this paper say for T? Haplogroup T fascinates me, I find it a very interesting haplogroup.

Gedalyah
07-01-17, 02:22
I disagree with North of the Aldipe belt

Sile
07-01-17, 02:30
My pleasure,

Of course, as am I with J2, I did BigY and transferred my results to Yfull in August, I just got my Str results 2 days ago, J2 has many subclades and I think it hard to pinpoint one exact location for all of them, there is definitely a migration of J2 to the Caucasus. I have formulated for the L210 and Pre-L210 lineages and the down streams, Pre-L210 kits (they have all the upstreams but are negative for L210) seem to be either Lebanese or Syrian, L210 and down streams have a much wider diversity. What did this paper say for T? Haplogroup T fascinates me, I find it a very interesting haplogroup.

It said nothing about T in Arabia

There are only 94 samples which are T in the 8500 samples tested:

21 in Armenia
21 in Turkey
13 in Lebanon
7 in Iran
5 in Caucasus
5 in Egypt
3 came from Europe
7 south levant
and 9 others

zero samples are anywhere near my markers.........closest is an Iranian who matches me only in 9 of 12 STR

Azzurro
07-01-17, 04:58
It said nothing about T in Arabia

There are only 94 samples which are T in the 8500 samples tested:

21 in Armenia
21 in Turkey
13 in Lebanon
7 in Iran
5 in Caucasus
5 in Egypt
3 came from Europe
7 south levant
and 9 others

zero samples are anywhere near my markers.........closest is an Iranian who matches me only in 9 of 12 STR

That is very interesting, your branch must be an older branch that went into europe earlier, even at 9 of 12 str that is very distant. Did they test further snps?

Sile
07-01-17, 06:45
That is very interesting, your branch must be an older branch that went into europe earlier, even at 9 of 12 str that is very distant. Did they test further snps?

If you are asking about mine....then use this thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29626-Questions-on-my-Y-DNA-Haplogroup-T?p=498519&viewfull=1#post498519

Alpenjager
07-01-17, 18:54
My first aproach on the LT-L298 origin 49600-41400 ybp, their descendant haplogroup T-M184 45500-39700 ybp their main branches T1-L206 (T1a-M70, T1b(xM70)) and T2-PH110 29300-24500 ybp as well as the L2-M595 25700-20800 ybp subclade of L-M20. I haven't added L1 because should be geographically overlapped by T-M184.
Used samples:
All known samples belonging to T2-PH110, L2-M595, T1-L206 (xM70) as well as all known samples belonging to basal subclades of T1a-M70. T1a-M70 basal subclades of: Y8614, Y11675, L162, PH141, L446. Samples found here: YFULL, FTDNA haplogroup T project, Hallast14 et al, Frigi05, Mendez11, Jakovski11 among other published papers.

8364

Megalophias
07-01-17, 19:00
Interesting, where are the T1b samples from? Never heard of that one before.

Alpenjager
07-01-17, 19:33
Interesting, where are the T1b samples from? Never heard of that one before.

T1b samples are from:
1.1.1 Druzes from Mount Lebanon, Beirut, Lebanon, Assyut Upper Egypt and Iberian-american from Córdoba, Colombia. This could be a first group. 1.1.2 A possible subgroup found in Syria.
1.2 A possible second group found among Berbers from Sejnane, Tunisia.
2.1 A possible third group and possibly most basally splitted found among Orthodox Christians in Macedonia.

Megalophias
07-01-17, 19:45
T1b samples are from:
1.1.1 Druzes from Mount Lebanon, Beirut, Lebanon, Assyut Upper Egypt and Iberian-american from Córdoba, Colombia. This could be a first group. 1.1.2 A possible subgroup found in Syria.
1.2 A possible second group found among Berbers from Sejnane, Tunisia.
2.1 A possible third group and possibly most basally splitted found among Orthodox Christians in Macedonia.
Thanks! Are these actually confirmed M70- by SNP testing?

Alpenjager
07-01-17, 19:53
Thanks! Are these actually confirmed M70- by SNP testing?

Two of them are M70- tested. The others are predicted with very high confidence.

halfalp
18-01-17, 11:15
I can clearly see that the LT or L and T individualy origin in europe, is an eurocentric thing right here... For alpide belt, alpine term is not false, just unusual, in french we say Ceinture Alpine, and english dont have the monopole of terms, neither of scientific behavior. I dont understand, the way you thinking, for you, its like eurasia was a crossroads, where every tribes go on and on, and salute themselves... J haplogroups is wide spread, maybe because he is one of the real neolithic signal, like R1 because they were unusualy nomadic, being nomad in a mountaneous region like iranian plateau and nomad in a flat steppe, its not the same.

Sile
18-01-17, 18:15
I can clearly see that the LT or L and T individualy origin in europe, is an eurocentric thing right here... For alpide belt, alpine term is not false, just unusual, in french we say Ceinture Alpine, and english dont have the monopole of terms, neither of scientific behavior. I dont understand, the way you thinking, for you, its like eurasia was a crossroads, where every tribes go on and on, and salute themselves... J haplogroups is wide spread, maybe because he is one of the real neolithic signal, like R1 because they were unusualy nomadic, being nomad in a mountaneous region like iranian plateau and nomad in a flat steppe, its not the same.

Alpine and alpide belt are different

Basically what we are saying is that when man crossed from Africa through the arabian peninsula , it crossed under the haplogroup termed CF , when haplogroup F was "born" it was born north of the alpide belt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F-M89

So , every haplogroup group which originates from haplogroup F , originates north of the Alpide belt


The zargos mountains is also the divide for the alpide belt

and

Mesopotamia and the fertile crescent people, originate from north of the alpide belt

Arabian peninsula was populated by haplogroups that originate north of the alpide belt

the only halpogroups which originate with a possibility of south of the alpide belt are under this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_DE

halfalp
18-01-17, 21:15
Alpine and alpide belt are different

Basically what we are saying is that when man crossed from Africa through the arabian peninsula , it crossed under the haplogroup termed CF , when haplogroup F was "born" it was born north of the alpide belt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F-M89

So , every haplogroup group which originates from haplogroup F , originates north of the Alpide belt


The zargos mountains is also the divide for the alpide belt

and

Mesopotamia and the fertile crescent people, originate from north of the alpide belt

Arabian peninsula was populated by haplogroups that originate north of the alpide belt

the only halpogroups which originate with a possibility of south of the alpide belt are under this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_DE


What ?!? Alpine or Alpide belt are the same thing, or you talk something different than me. Your idea of spread of haplogroups is strange. Do you know that a population can have, especially in early upper paleolithic, a large scale of haplogroups, but being a same population ? North of the Alpide Belt in a eurasian context, means the eurasian steppe, so you think every modern humans descending from F-M89 come from the eurasian steppe ? You talk about arabian peninsula, but there is also india. Wich shows clearly the world highest haplogroups and genetic diversification of the world, there is even strange haplogroups, non repertoriate, without specific clade in india. But i was talking, for the recent 10'000 years, where F,G,H are clearly basal eurasian ON the alpide belt ( Anatolia, Iranian Plateau ) and Q, R in the eurasian steppe. I in europe and J around the caucasus in maybe in some pockets. Everything change after, like history show us, migration, demic and cultural diffusion....

Sile
19-01-17, 05:59
What ?!? Alpine or Alpide belt are the same thing, or you talk something different than me. Your idea of spread of haplogroups is strange. Do you know that a population can have, especially in early upper paleolithic, a large scale of haplogroups, but being a same population ? North of the Alpide Belt in a eurasian context, means the eurasian steppe, so you think every modern humans descending from F-M89 come from the eurasian steppe ? You talk about arabian peninsula, but there is also india. Wich shows clearly the world highest haplogroups and genetic diversification of the world, there is even strange haplogroups, non repertoriate, without specific clade in india. But i was talking, for the recent 10'000 years, where F,G,H are clearly basal eurasian ON the alpide belt ( Anatolia, Iranian Plateau ) and Q, R in the eurasian steppe. I in europe and J around the caucasus in maybe in some pockets. Everything change after, like history show us, migration, demic and cultural diffusion....

Iran is north of the alpide belt, but not irak, nor syria

the azeri and south caucasus are north of the alpide belt

you cannot have J haplogroup created before the creation of F haplogroup

Karafet already stated that R was created in south east asian ..........R1 in and around the himalysas , R2 in South asia..........and R1a and R1b is still being discussed

halfalp
19-01-17, 20:23
Zagros and Elbrouz, so south and north of iran, so iran, is the alpide belt, caucasus is alpide belt... Im talkin about the mountaneous belt from pyrennae to himalaya, maybe you talk about a special concept... By the way, when a talk of alpide belt in a eurasian context, im talking about anatolia, caucasus, iran, and all the pamiri-himalayan complexe, not europe or birmania.

halfalp
19-01-17, 20:25
And you should not take an statement for granted, even or especially with genetic postulats

halfalp
19-01-17, 20:32
For the Origin of R, R1, R2... i think the better proxy for Q, R and later R1 and R2 is still the Pamiro-Himalayan complexe... Afghanistan, Issyk Kul, Central Asia in a large scale... For R1a and R1b the dispersion from central asia is pretty sure, especially for R1a that we found in mesolithic russia context, siberian context, neolithic far east context... ( Yes Iran because Reich team said so ). R1b is most complicated, but if we take on account R1b-V88 in africa who clearly came with neolithic package, and because the Caucasus crossing doesnt make sens for me, especially in early neolithic, i think that an South Turkmenistan, by the Elbrouz Chains or maybe with boat across the caspian... are better theory about the propagation of R1b in west asia, wich is not the same for the pontic steppe, who clearly came from north caspian to volga. Sorry for the 3 posts, Eupedia doesnt let me Edite.

Azzurro
21-01-17, 08:51
I personally think T originated in the Alpide belt, and that Sile has it right, interestingly too I believe T might have been a major haplogroup of the ancient Mesopotamian peoples, specifically the Sumerians.

Sile
02-09-17, 00:09
I personally think T originated in the Alpide belt, and that Sile has it right, interestingly too I believe T might have been a major haplogroup of the ancient Mesopotamian peoples, specifically the Sumerians.
https://s20.postimg.org/cxwr940ot/map_t_origin.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/eppq40k1l/)

blue = T1a1 branch

green = T1a2

brown = T1a3

Salento
26-05-18, 13:28
https://s20.postimg.cc/cxwr940ot/map_t_origin.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/eppq40k1l/)
blue = T1a1 branch

green = T1a2

brown = T1a3



I personally think T originated in the Alpide belt, and that Sile has it right, interestingly too I believe T might have been a major haplogroup of the ancient Mesopotamian peoples, specifically the Sumerians.



The domain extension of the pic and link posted was .org
I replaced it with .cc

ps I thought that one of the T1a1 branch migrated back in to Europe crossing through Gibraltar and going in to Spain, all the way up in to Wales and England. ???

Sile
26-05-18, 21:44
The domain extension of the pic and link posted was .org
I replaced it with .cc

ps I thought that one of the T1a1 branch migrated back in to Europe crossing through Gibraltar and going in to Spain, all the way up in to Wales and England. ???

you mean this T1a1

T-M184 ...sample ID KEB6 genome from Neolithic Kelif el Boroud.Belongs to P77 branch.
M70+, L162+, L208+, Y4119+, CTS2214+, Z709+, Z710+, L906+, Y4984+, P77+
According to the authors, the Neolithic ancient KEB6 individual, belonged to a group that crossed the strait of Gibraltar from Iberian Peninsula to North Africa.
Mtdna is K1a4a1
.
most likely T1a1 went into NW Africa via Iberia ..............I cannot find any , the other way around

Sile
22-09-18, 02:51
CL23 which is T-L446 had admixture results below....use ID for other tests
Eurogenes places this person between hungary and Friuli
.
.
Kit Num: Z909242
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.
K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 32.49
2 West_Med 23.15
3 East_Med 15.44
4 Baltic 11.19
5 West_Asian 10.39
6 Red_Sea 4.00
Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Italian @ 6.318764
2 Spanish_Extremadura @ 10.215214
3 Portuguese @ 10.481634
4 Tuscan @ 10.846835
5 Spanish_Galicia @ 11.515195
6 Spanish_Andalucia @ 11.734688
7 Spanish_Murcia @ 11.924896
8 Spanish_Cataluna @ 12.378675
9 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 12.674054
10 Spanish_Valencia @ 12.895143
11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 13.278596
12 French @ 14.579446
13 Spanish_Cantabria @ 15.154699
14 Spanish_Aragon @ 16.676853
15 Italian_Abruzzo @ 16.980034
16 Southwest_French @ 16.994125
17 Romanian @ 17.068951
18 Greek_Thessaly @ 17.701933
19 West_Sicilian @ 17.886683
20 Bulgarian @ 18.382051
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Abruzzo +50% Southwest_French @ 4.347123
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Basque +25% Kurdish_Jewish +25% Moldavian @ 1.880900
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 French + Georgian_Jewish + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 1.544588
2 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.549791
3 French + Southwest_French + Spanish_Extremadura + Turkish @ 1.550798
4 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.569885
5 East_German + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.623649
6 French + Georgian_Jewish + Southwest_French + Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.627423
7 Assyrian + Austrian + French_Basque + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.637768
8 East_German + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.684614
9 French + Southwest_French + Spanish_Andalucia + Turkish @ 1.693494
10 French + Southwest_French + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + Turkish @ 1.736794
11 French + Spanish_Cantabria + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + Turkish @ 1.755329
12 Assyrian + Austrian + French_Basque + Spanish_Extremadura @ 1.768628
13 Assyrian + Austrian + French_Basque + Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.789258
14 French + Spanish_Cantabria + Spanish_Extremadura + Turkish @ 1.799327
15 Azeri + Portuguese + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 1.802059
16 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.810573
17 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Aragon @ 1.839266
18 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Southwest_French @ 1.845582
19 French + Spanish_Cantabria + Spanish_Cantabria + Turkish @ 1.846447
20 Assyrian + French + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 1.847161
.
.................................................. ...........................
..
.
Kit Num: Z909242
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
Dodecad K12b 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

The GEDmatch version of Oracle may give slightly different results from Dienekes version. The GEDmatch version uses FST weighting in its calculations.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 35.79
2 North_European 24.07
3 Caucasus 21.79
4 Gedrosia 6.93
5 Southwest_Asian 6.75
6 Northwest_African 2.46
7 East_African 1.09


Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 6.093848
2 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 7.813148
3 North_Italian_HGDP @ 9.240507
4 TSI30_Metspalu @ 9.336050
5 Tuscan_HGDP @ 11.004959
6 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.903599
7 Baleares_1000Genomes @ 16.008512
8 Galicia_1000Genomes @ 16.823957
9 Extremadura_1000Genomes @ 17.353289
10 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 17.928656
11 Romanians_Behar @ 18.356617
12 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 18.680088
13 Greek_Dodecad @ 18.681952
14 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 18.724812
15 Murcia_1000Genomes @ 19.177168
16 Canarias_1000Genomes @ 19.419041
17 Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes @ 20.094767
18 Andalucia_1000Genomes @ 20.405411
19 Spaniards_Behar @ 20.745586
20 Sicilian_Dodecad @ 20.847435

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Dodecad +50% Sicilian_Dodecad @ 1.859818

Salento
22-09-18, 08:00
CL23 which is T-L446 had admixture results below....use ID for other tests
Eurogenes places this person between hungary and Friuli
.
.
Kit Num: Z909242


Who is it? (Ma chi è?) Ancient or Contemporary?
Anyway :) :

#Z909242 Regional sharing %
1 North-Italy 27.39
2 Portugal&GaliciaAzores 19.61
3 Spain North&East 19.33
4 Spain Central&South 19.02
5 East-Balkan 14.65


http://i.imgur.com/67AgSTj.jpg

Sile
22-09-18, 20:32
Who is it? (Ma chi è?) Ancient or Contemporary?
Anyway :) :

#Z909242 Regional sharing %
1 North-Italy 27.39
2 Portugal&GaliciaAzores 19.61
3 Spain North&East 19.33
4 Spain Central&South 19.02
5 East-Balkan 14.65
http://i.imgur.com/67AgSTj.jpg
he is from the lombard paper ..............might be born in Szolad as he matches close to 3 other "hungarians" ...........died in Italy
his HEL indicats that he is a Bulgarian
.
his plot is below
.
https://i.postimg.cc/yYF4z95z/cl23plot.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Sile
27-09-18, 06:55
In regards to T-Z19945
its age is roughly 1460BC by yfull
placed in the Jura mountains.......due to age, most likely from Helvetii peoples ..........later by Swabians after the Roman disappearance
.
I wonder if samples where found in the Jura caves complex

Salento
27-09-18, 08:17
In regards to T-Z19945 ....

That’s interesting, (thanks Sile}
you wrote:

... “T-Z19945 age is roughly 1460BC by yfull
placed in the Jura mountains.......due to age, most likely from Helvetii peoples ..........later by Swabians after the Roman disappearance.
I wonder if samples where found in the Jura caves complex...”...
————-

I edited my original response bc I misread the dates.

http://i.imgur.com/hCjaz2v.jpg

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Z19945*/

Sile
03-10-18, 19:35
That’s interesting, (thanks Sile}
you wrote:

... “T-Z19945 age is roughly 1460BC by yfull
placed in the Jura mountains.......due to age, most likely from Helvetii peoples ..........later by Swabians after the Roman disappearance.
I wonder if samples where found in the Jura caves complex...”...
————-

I edited my original response bc I misread the dates.

http://i.imgur.com/hCjaz2v.jpg

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Z19945*/

That is me

Salento
03-10-18, 20:41
That is me
Nice, I didn’t know, That’s very CooL ! :-)

Sile
04-10-18, 20:35
CL23 which is T-L446 had admixture results below....use ID for other tests
Eurogenes places this person between hungary and Friuli
.
.
Kit Num: Z909242
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.
K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 32.49
2 West_Med 23.15
3 East_Med 15.44
4 Baltic 11.19
5 West_Asian 10.39
6 Red_Sea 4.00
Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Italian @ 6.318764
2 Spanish_Extremadura @ 10.215214
3 Portuguese @ 10.481634
4 Tuscan @ 10.846835
5 Spanish_Galicia @ 11.515195
6 Spanish_Andalucia @ 11.734688
7 Spanish_Murcia @ 11.924896
8 Spanish_Cataluna @ 12.378675
9 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 12.674054
10 Spanish_Valencia @ 12.895143
11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 13.278596
12 French @ 14.579446
13 Spanish_Cantabria @ 15.154699
14 Spanish_Aragon @ 16.676853
15 Italian_Abruzzo @ 16.980034
16 Southwest_French @ 16.994125
17 Romanian @ 17.068951
18 Greek_Thessaly @ 17.701933
19 West_Sicilian @ 17.886683
20 Bulgarian @ 18.382051
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Abruzzo +50% Southwest_French @ 4.347123
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Basque +25% Kurdish_Jewish +25% Moldavian @ 1.880900
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 French + Georgian_Jewish + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 1.544588
2 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.549791
3 French + Southwest_French + Spanish_Extremadura + Turkish @ 1.550798
4 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.569885
5 East_German + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.623649
6 French + Georgian_Jewish + Southwest_French + Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.627423
7 Assyrian + Austrian + French_Basque + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.637768
8 East_German + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.684614
9 French + Southwest_French + Spanish_Andalucia + Turkish @ 1.693494
10 French + Southwest_French + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + Turkish @ 1.736794
11 French + Spanish_Cantabria + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + Turkish @ 1.755329
12 Assyrian + Austrian + French_Basque + Spanish_Extremadura @ 1.768628
13 Assyrian + Austrian + French_Basque + Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.789258
14 French + Spanish_Cantabria + Spanish_Extremadura + Turkish @ 1.799327
15 Azeri + Portuguese + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 1.802059
16 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.810573
17 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Aragon @ 1.839266
18 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Southwest_French @ 1.845582
19 French + Spanish_Cantabria + Spanish_Cantabria + Turkish @ 1.846447
20 Assyrian + French + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 1.847161
.
.................................................. ...........................
..
.
Kit Num: Z909242
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
Dodecad K12b 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

The GEDmatch version of Oracle may give slightly different results from Dienekes version. The GEDmatch version uses FST weighting in its calculations.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 35.79
2 North_European 24.07
3 Caucasus 21.79
4 Gedrosia 6.93
5 Southwest_Asian 6.75
6 Northwest_African 2.46
7 East_African 1.09


Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 6.093848
2 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 7.813148
3 North_Italian_HGDP @ 9.240507
4 TSI30_Metspalu @ 9.336050
5 Tuscan_HGDP @ 11.004959
6 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.903599
7 Baleares_1000Genomes @ 16.008512
8 Galicia_1000Genomes @ 16.823957
9 Extremadura_1000Genomes @ 17.353289
10 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 17.928656
11 Romanians_Behar @ 18.356617
12 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 18.680088
13 Greek_Dodecad @ 18.681952
14 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 18.724812
15 Murcia_1000Genomes @ 19.177168
16 Canarias_1000Genomes @ 19.419041
17 Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes @ 20.094767
18 Andalucia_1000Genomes @ 20.405411
19 Spaniards_Behar @ 20.745586
20 Sicilian_Dodecad @ 20.847435

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Dodecad +50% Sicilian_Dodecad @ 1.859818

as per eurogenes...the closest sample to a Bell Beaker north italian is sample CL23

Sile
06-10-18, 08:16
closest Bell beaker north italian to the lombard samples
https://i.postimg.cc/66VhbVVH/BB_north_ITA.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Salento
06-10-18, 13:08
closest Bell beaker north italian to the lombard samples
https://i.postimg.cc/66VhbVVH/BB_north_ITA.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

A Y Haplo T1a2 (T-L446), is the closest Bell Beaker to a North Italian. (Lombard sample CL23).
As evidenced by this data.

do not hesitate ✌

Sile
19-10-18, 19:28
T person which has no SNP for T1 or T2 branch and is the only one in all the T haplogroup sitting solely under M184
.
id:YF03586 ARM............Armenia from Ghazari ( north Armenia )
.
.
Only nne T person sitting only with SNP L131
id:YF15081 ARM new ...........Armenia again
.
.
Area under ...........Ancient Kura-axes culture ...........ancient Hurrian peoples

Salento
26-01-19, 19:14
the first paper I recall of the Ladin DNA was by Thomas in 2008, he split the german speakers and italian speakers and below is the ydna split
GV (German, n=102): ~R1b 42%, ~G+I 25%, J 14%, R1a 9% , ~E 8%, L 2%
ITA (Ital.speakers BZ, n=59): ~R1b 37%, ~G+I 25%, J 15%, ~E 12%, ~T 5%, R1a 3%, L 2%
.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17712356
New genetic evidence supports isolation and drift in the Ladin communities of the South Tyrolean Alps but not an ancient origin in the Middle East.
Thomas MG1, Barnes I, Weale ME, Jones AL, Forster P, Bradman N, Pramstaller PP.

Same quote here:
https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184.html

and also says that:

...Y T ... probably originated around 40,000 years ago somewhere between the North European Plain and Himalayas,...

This is big split from most websites.

Sile
02-03-19, 18:09
CL23 which is T-L446 had admixture results below....use ID for other tests
Eurogenes places this person between hungary and Friuli
.
.
Kit Num: Z909242
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]il.com
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.
K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 32.49
2 West_Med 23.15
3 East_Med 15.44
4 Baltic 11.19
5 West_Asian 10.39
6 Red_Sea 4.00
Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Italian @ 6.318764
2 Spanish_Extremadura @ 10.215214
3 Portuguese @ 10.481634
4 Tuscan @ 10.846835
5 Spanish_Galicia @ 11.515195
6 Spanish_Andalucia @ 11.734688
7 Spanish_Murcia @ 11.924896
8 Spanish_Cataluna @ 12.378675
9 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 12.674054
10 Spanish_Valencia @ 12.895143
11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 13.278596
12 French @ 14.579446
13 Spanish_Cantabria @ 15.154699
14 Spanish_Aragon @ 16.676853
15 Italian_Abruzzo @ 16.980034
16 Southwest_French @ 16.994125
17 Romanian @ 17.068951
18 Greek_Thessaly @ 17.701933
19 West_Sicilian @ 17.886683
20 Bulgarian @ 18.382051
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Abruzzo +50% Southwest_French @ 4.347123
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Basque +25% Kurdish_Jewish +25% Moldavian @ 1.880900
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 French + Georgian_Jewish + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 1.544588
2 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.549791
3 French + Southwest_French + Spanish_Extremadura + Turkish @ 1.550798
4 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.569885
5 East_German + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.623649
6 French + Georgian_Jewish + Southwest_French + Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.627423
7 Assyrian + Austrian + French_Basque + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.637768
8 East_German + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.684614
9 French + Southwest_French + Spanish_Andalucia + Turkish @ 1.693494
10 French + Southwest_French + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + Turkish @ 1.736794
11 French + Spanish_Cantabria + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + Turkish @ 1.755329
12 Assyrian + Austrian + French_Basque + Spanish_Extremadura @ 1.768628
13 Assyrian + Austrian + French_Basque + Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.789258
14 French + Spanish_Cantabria + Spanish_Extremadura + Turkish @ 1.799327
15 Azeri + Portuguese + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 1.802059
16 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.810573
17 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Aragon @ 1.839266
18 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Southwest_French @ 1.845582
19 French + Spanish_Cantabria + Spanish_Cantabria + Turkish @ 1.846447
20 Assyrian + French + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 1.847161
.
.................................................. ...........................
..
.
Kit Num: Z909242
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
Dodecad K12b 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.
The GEDmatch version of Oracle may give slightly different results from Dienekes version. The GEDmatch version uses FST weighting in its calculations.
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 35.79
2 North_European 24.07
3 Caucasus 21.79
4 Gedrosia 6.93
5 Southwest_Asian 6.75
6 Northwest_African 2.46
7 East_African 1.09
Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 6.093848
2 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 7.813148
3 North_Italian_HGDP @ 9.240507
4 TSI30_Metspalu @ 9.336050
5 Tuscan_HGDP @ 11.004959
6 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.903599
7 Baleares_1000Genomes @ 16.008512
8 Galicia_1000Genomes @ 16.823957
9 Extremadura_1000Genomes @ 17.353289
10 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 17.928656
11 Romanians_Behar @ 18.356617
12 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 18.680088
13 Greek_Dodecad @ 18.681952
14 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 18.724812
15 Murcia_1000Genomes @ 19.177168
16 Canarias_1000Genomes @ 19.419041
17 Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes @ 20.094767
18 Andalucia_1000Genomes @ 20.405411
19 Spaniards_Behar @ 20.745586
20 Sicilian_Dodecad @ 20.847435
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Dodecad +50% Sicilian_Dodecad @ 1.859818
BAM results for CL23
.
T1a2 - CTS933 ( CTS6071+ )
.
negative for CTS11984
.
Blond hair and Blue/Grey eyes
Pale skin

Sile
02-03-19, 18:12
3rd neolithic karsdorf T ydna found

KARS537

Bam file

T1a1- L162

Brown hair
Blue eyes
Pale skin

ABO blood group

Salento
02-03-19, 19:11
3rd neolithic karsdorf T ydna found

KARS537

Bam file

T1a1- L162

Brown hair
Blue eyes
Pale skin

ABO blood group

Since he has brown hair, I wouldn't be that comfortable at predicting for sure the color of his eyes.

In multiple sites, I still get this (wrongly):

https://i.imgur.com/WDl73Xe.jpg

They get my hair color close enough:

http://i.imgur.com/ZgUbB9B.jpg

Sile
02-03-19, 19:38
Since he has brown hair, I wouldn't be that comfortable at predicting for sure the color of his eyes.

In multiple sites, I still get this (wrongly):

https://i.imgur.com/WDl73Xe.jpg

They get my hair color close enough:

http://i.imgur.com/ZgUbB9B.jpg


his first reading was red hair or more like chestnut colour

Salento
24-03-19, 04:00
T Z19945 Migration

1700 BC Rome
1100 BC over the Alps

according to:
https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/


http://i.imgur.com/4ymtQLh.jpg

torzio
11-06-19, 07:19
Since he has brown hair, I wouldn't be that comfortable at predicting for sure the color of his eyes.

In multiple sites, I still get this (wrongly):

https://i.imgur.com/WDl73Xe.jpg

They get my hair color close enough:

http://i.imgur.com/ZgUbB9B.jpg


info on KARS537

https://www.biorxiv.org/node/96800.full

Ahmed
12-06-19, 12:44
Hi everyone, this is my first post here but the hot discussion about Romans attracted me though it is old. Since i received my BigY-700 results i started to know more about Europe and Romans history as my Y haplogroup is R-Z193/PF6658 which is subclade of R-U152. I am from Egypt so it was surprising when i knew that i am descending from European ancestor. I am 75% Egyptian ,20% from Asia Minor , 2% south European and i never heard about any European ancestors in my family but may be because it happened long time ago. I think my subclade is still existing in some areas in Italy like Sardinia and Tuscany so one of the strongest possibilities that my family moved to Egypt during the Romans invasion to Egypt 2000 years ago. I read a research about a lot of documented marriages between Roman soldiers and Egyptian women though it wasn't legalised at the beginning but it is still an assumption until i find a close match some where in Europe. I am in the big tree under my last name Abdou and soon will be in YFull.

Salento
12-06-19, 13:18
Hi everyone, this is my first post here but the hot discussion about Romans attracted me though it is old. Since i received my BigY-700 results i started to know more about Europe and Romans history as my Y haplogroup is R-Z193/PF6658 which is subclade of R-U152. I am from Egypt so it was surprising when i knew that i am descending from European ancestor. I am 75% Egyptian ,20% from Asia Minor , 2% south European and i never heard about any European ancestors in my family but may be because it happened long time ago. I think my subclade is still existing in some areas in Italy like Sardinia and Tuscany so one of the strongest possibilities that my family moved to Egypt during the Romans invasion to Egypt 2000 years ago. I read a research about a lot of documented marriages between Roman soldiers and Egyptian women though it wasn't legalised at the beginning but it is still an assumption until i find a close match some where in Europe. I am in the big tree under my last name Abdou and soon will be in YFull.

That’s great, You should probably Post it again in the R1b section of the Forum, this thread is about Y haplogroup T.

Here is the link, (You’ll get more exposure and you’ll find more informations on your Haplogroup):

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/forums/234-R1b

Andalusian Fusion
18-06-19, 00:48
"T-M184 (xL206) sample found in a published paper. And this individual is from Himalayas."

Do you have a link?

torzio
18-06-19, 01:31
"T-M184 (xL206) sample found in a published paper. And this individual is from Himalayas."

Do you have a link?

There are 3 with this marker who do not have other snp mutations, the one you mentioned plus Armenia and Germany

Andalusian Fusion
18-06-19, 02:37
There are 3 with this marker who do not have other snp mutations, the one you mentioned plus Armenia and Germany

Where are the papers this person mentioned? (It's an old post from 6 years ago, so not sure if the person is still on here.)

torzio
18-06-19, 20:35
Where are the papers this person mentioned? (It's an old post from 6 years ago, so not sure if the person is still on here.)

check wiki site .....T-M184
and all links to other papers are at the bottom

the only way to use wiki

Andalusian Fusion
19-06-19, 21:28
check wiki site .....T-M184
and all links to other papers are at the bottom

the only way to use wiki

Doh!


Thanks, Torzio.

torzio
20-06-19, 20:03
Doh!


Thanks, Torzio.

how did you get an un-helpful mark for this?...................someone must hate your comments about hap. T marker

Andalusian Fusion
21-06-19, 01:03
how did you get an un-helpful mark for this?...................someone must hate your comments about hap. T marker

I will be creating my own forum.

torzio
20-08-19, 19:30
Around the alpide belt
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-11357-9

sample I3403 is ydna T1a2 with mtdna X2d

Joey37
20-08-19, 19:59
I would say that the parent LT originated in the Zagros mountains or northern Fertile Crescent, and while L headed mostly east, T went west and also south.

torzio
20-08-19, 22:09
I would say that the parent LT originated in the Zagros mountains or northern Fertile Crescent, and while L headed mostly east, T went west and also south.

file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/2809-13879-1-PB.pdf ( map #11)

This paper states south of the caspian sea .................my take is anywhere around the caspian sea .......although the kazaks are one of a few races that ancient T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3 are all found together

torzio
26-08-19, 20:29
all olden haplogroup T

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map/haplogroup-t-m184-ancient-samples-adna_300741?fbclid=IwAR0rGEU3IgaKN1N73vrg5ypvTRaFQ dzeq6KtINU9gNaM4AcPxkF1rlddOFs#4/54.37/38.28

I find the collegno CL23 an issue...............the paper gave it a T1a2-L446 branch and this link states T1a1 branch

Salento
26-08-19, 21:24
all older haplogroup T

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map/haplogroup-t-m184-ancient-samples-adna_300741?fbclid=IwAR0rGEU3IgaKN1N73vrg5ypvTRaFQ dzeq6KtINU9gNaM4AcPxkF1rlddOFs#4/54.37/38.28

I find the collegno CL23 an issue...............the paper gave it a T1a2-L446 branch and this link states T1a1 branch

It also says that CL23 is not T L446

It is shown as T CTS6071 (CTS933)

I’m positive for both, and you should be too

I remember that they were thinking about changing the nomenclature, maybe ...

https://i.imgur.com/yVSw8FF.jpg

torzio
26-08-19, 22:53
It also says that CL23 is not T L446

It is shown as T CTS6071 (CTS933)

I’m positive for both, and you should be too

I remember that they were thinking about changing the nomenclature, maybe ...

https://i.imgur.com/yVSw8FF.jpg

Agree

It still makes it a T1a2 branch

torzio
31-08-19, 04:28
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45398-3#Sec15

Estimating Y-Str Mutation Rates and Tmrca Through Deep-Rooting Italian Pedigrees


10 x T1a2-L131 samples

and an interesting LT sample....very very old haplogroup

https://i.postimg.cc/bwJptRpG/t-l131.png (https://postimages.org/)

Salento
31-08-19, 05:53
I wish people would Capitalize the L haplogroup.

Half of the time I can’t tell if is an I or a L

torzio
31-08-19, 19:44
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45398-3#Sec15

Estimating Y-Str Mutation Rates and Tmrca Through Deep-Rooting Italian Pedigrees


10 x T1a2-L131 samples

and an interesting LT sample....very very old haplogroup

https://i.postimg.cc/bwJptRpG/t-l131.png (https://postimages.org/)

The present study comprises 135 samples belonging to 66 different paternal lineages from two bordering regions of Northern Italy, i.e. Emilia-Romagna and Veneto.

actually , they are only from romagna and veneto

torzio
09-09-19, 07:37
all olden haplogroup T

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map/haplogroup-t-m184-ancient-samples-adna_300741?fbclid=IwAR0rGEU3IgaKN1N73vrg5ypvTRaFQ dzeq6KtINU9gNaM4AcPxkF1rlddOFs#4/54.37/38.28

I find the collegno CL23 an issue...............the paper gave it a T1a2-L446 branch and this link states T1a1 branch

site upgraded

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map/ancient-y-dna-t-m184_362498?fbclid=IwAR0CuvlljjmsQjNbuhKqGoeQmRpbM A7vMC0lSKhUTp1CvZ7Osu4xwOmOR0o#3/47.34/46.58

Salento
09-09-19, 13:52
site upgraded

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map/ancient-y-dna-t-m184_362498?fbclid=IwAR0CuvlljjmsQjNbuhKqGoeQmRpbM A7vMC0lSKhUTp1CvZ7Osu4xwOmOR0o#3/47.34/46.58

... anything interesting from your new Y test results ?

torzio
09-09-19, 19:40
... anything interesting from your new Y test results ?

CL23 is marked as T1a1 .....when he should be T1a2 since he has CTS6007 and L446 which are both T1a2 branch markers

VK398 is also marked in error as T1a1 , when it is T1a2


this new one at
Tepe Hissar C ( 4100 yBP - Bronze Age ) Tepe Hissar Culture .............NE Iran on the caspian sea

I2514 ( 3915 ± 25 yBP / 4341 yBP )
Phase: Hissar IIIb
Cluster:
Y-DNA: T1a2a1a-Y13284 (xT1a2a1a1-Y38305, T1a2a1a2-BY31850) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y13280/)
mtDNA: W3b
Age at Death: +50

................................................

Ipatovo 3 ( 5400 yBP - Early Bronze Age ) Early Steppe Maykop Culture


IV3002 ( 5383 ± 64 yBP )
Kurgan: 2
Phase: 1st
Grave: 187 ( Founding grave of the entire mound )
Other dates: 5058 ± 223 yBP / 5328 ± 251 yBP / 4630 ± 50 yBP (radiocarbon)
Y-DNA: T1-CTS6004 (xT1a1a-CTS484, T1a1b-Y6031, T1a2b-FGC37316) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-L206/) Probably: T1a2a-Y8614 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y8614/)
mtDNA: X1'2'3
Age at Death: 35-45

.....................................

This was T1a3 and now

Kok-Mardan ( 1800 yBP - Late Antiquity ) Kaunchi Culture ( Kangju )
DA125 ( 1755 ± 41 yBP )
Kurgan:
Object:
Y-DNA: T1a2a1a1-Y13279 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y13279/)
mtDNA: U2e2a1

Salento
10-09-19, 15:53
VK17 - y T1a1a - mt U5a2a1b

VK398 y T1a2b1 - mt H1b1+16362

(non y T Pugliese Viking, note to myself:
VK535 y R1b1a1b1b3a - mt T1a5
autosomally ~90% southern European, I think this is the guy that @Ownstyler is talking about)

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38912-Viking-world-population-genomics?p=581938&viewfull=1#post581938

Alpenjager
14-09-19, 08:11
This is not a error but the most updated tree. Anyway, I should have to update it again since the new finding on the Crusader change the whole tree as follows:
https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/69707912_2719836811380549_3704899013561024512_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&_nc_oc=AQnBL6Jhj6R7JGvo1Ahks3k8I90OtLzOoYMJD_W16p5 Oz-4DQUwGh6Pn4n6uirG5pRU&_nc_ht=scontent-mad1-1.xx&oh=e52fe41bdb33f124881fba573eb61254&oe=5E0BE82C


CL23 is marked as T1a1 .....when he should be T1a2 since he has CTS6007 and L446 which are both T1a2 branch markers

VK398 is also marked in error as T1a1 , when it is T1a2


this new one at
Tepe Hissar C ( 4100 yBP - Bronze Age ) Tepe Hissar Culture .............NE Iran on the caspian sea

I2514 ( 3915 ± 25 yBP / 4341 yBP )
Phase: Hissar IIIb
Cluster:
Y-DNA: T1a2a1a-Y13284 (xT1a2a1a1-Y38305, T1a2a1a2-BY31850) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y13280/)
mtDNA: W3b
Age at Death: +50

................................................

Ipatovo 3 ( 5400 yBP - Early Bronze Age ) Early Steppe Maykop Culture


IV3002 ( 5383 ± 64 yBP )
Kurgan: 2
Phase: 1st
Grave: 187 ( Founding grave of the entire mound )
Other dates: 5058 ± 223 yBP / 5328 ± 251 yBP / 4630 ± 50 yBP (radiocarbon)
Y-DNA: T1-CTS6004 (xT1a1a-CTS484, T1a1b-Y6031, T1a2b-FGC37316) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-L206/) Probably: T1a2a-Y8614 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y8614/)
mtDNA: X1'2'3
Age at Death: 35-45

.....................................

This was T1a3 and now

Kok-Mardan ( 1800 yBP - Late Antiquity ) Kaunchi Culture ( Kangju )


DA125 ( 1755 ± 41 yBP )
Kurgan:
Object:
Y-DNA: T1a2a1a1-Y13279 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y13279/)
mtDNA: U2e2a1

T1a1 was T1a1a and now will be T1a1a1, T1a2 was T1a1b and now will change to T1a1a2 and finally T1a3 was T1a2 and now will be as T1a1b

torzio
14-09-19, 08:40
This is not a error but the most updated tree. Anyway, I should have to update it again since the new finding on the Crusader change the whole tree as follows:
https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/69707912_2719836811380549_3704899013561024512_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&_nc_oc=AQnBL6Jhj6R7JGvo1Ahks3k8I90OtLzOoYMJD_W16p5 Oz-4DQUwGh6Pn4n6uirG5pRU&_nc_ht=scontent-mad1-1.xx&oh=e52fe41bdb33f124881fba573eb61254&oe=5E0BE82C



T1a1 was T1a1a and now will be T1a1a1, T1a2 was T1a1b and now will change to T1a1a2 and finally T1a3 was T1a2 and now will be as T1a1b


I have never seen that all T ydna will go under T1a1 in any other site ............please link where ftdna or Isogg or others are calling every T under 1 branch ............it will make everything confusing

in the old days , there was T1a and T1b ..........then came T1a1, T1a2, T1a3 and T2-Ph110 ...................I need a link for you to explain these changes to me

Salento
14-09-19, 17:55
a 3/4Italian, 1/4 Anglo-American:

y T-CTS8862 (he’s actually T-Z19945 (100% Italian Father)

mt U5a2a1b (same mt as the VK17 sample)

https://i.imgur.com/ZzWs0io.png

https://i.imgur.com/z5l81Di.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/gUvxnkR.jpg

torzio
14-09-19, 20:38
a 3/4Italian, 1/4 Anglo-American:

y T-CTS8862 (he’s actually T-Z19945 (100% Italian Father)

mt U5a2a1b (same mt as the VK17 sample)

https://i.imgur.com/ZzWs0io.png

https://i.imgur.com/z5l81Di.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/gUvxnkR.jpg

who/where are these results from ?

Salento
14-09-19, 20:48
NatGeo, ... Junior ...

Salento
14-09-19, 22:34
Junior full Results

https://i.imgur.com/41BGnKH.jpg

Salento
14-09-19, 22:40
https://i.imgur.com/qn1LGLl.jpg



mine below:
https://i.imgur.com/SAFMgqH.jpg

torzio
14-09-19, 23:30
https://i.imgur.com/qn1LGLl.jpg



mine below:
https://i.imgur.com/SAFMgqH.jpg

I have an older version

Natgeno gave me my ydna T-CTS8862 and my mtdna of h95a ................2 years before any other company


https://i.postimg.cc/c4hBMcfz/natgeno.png (https://postimg.cc/HVJMTXZ0)

torzio
14-09-19, 23:39
there has been a slight increase of tuscan since a year ago

https://i.postimg.cc/GhD14HY9/nat-geno-ref.png (https://postimages.org/)

Salento
15-09-19, 00:16
I have an older version

Natgeno gave me my ydna T-CTS8862 and my mtdna of h95a ................2 years before any other company


https://i.postimg.cc/c4hBMcfz/natgeno.png (https://postimg.cc/HVJMTXZ0)


I guess that Northern and Southern Italian meet around Tuscany, genetically speaking.

Junior:

https://i.imgur.com/7scVyLg.jpg

Mine:

https://i.imgur.com/DMGkPJk.jpg

Salento
27-09-19, 02:43
@Torzio

I saw the Illyrians, Veneti and Pugliesi posts on the MTA thread.

... what if T-Z19945 hung out with some Illyrian tribe before splitting?

What do you think?

torzio
27-09-19, 04:19
@Torzio

I saw the Illyrians, Veneti and Pugliesi posts on the MTA thread.

... what if T-Z19945 hung out with some Illyrian tribe before splitting?

What do you think?

can you link thread

your ideas are as good as any

I thought Z19945 is more likely in the northern Balkan lands , hungarian , romanian etc............

age of Z19945 as per yfull is only 1460BC approx.

Salento
27-09-19, 04:48
can you link thread

your ideas are as good as any

I thought Z19945 is more likely in the northern Balkan lands , hungarian , romanian etc............

age of Z19945 as per yfull is only 1460BC approx.

It start at Post #1389

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38222-Mytrueancestry-com?p=586698&viewfull=1#post586698

Salento
27-09-19, 07:19
Tomenable thinks that SZ36 (y T1a..) is an Ethnic Roman.
It’s my 1st / 2nd match on my MTA Kits:


https://i.imgur.com/n23GWJQ.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/FEG4aDp.jpg


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28284-Roman-DNA-distribution?p=586743&viewfull=1#post586743

Q-Matching one-to-one with SZ36:

https://i.imgur.com/UYLA21C.jpg

torzio
27-09-19, 20:40
id:ERS256892 ITA [IT-CA]

This sample in yfull has a yellow squared information box with a couple of Snp's , one which is Z19945 .........this is way further up the tree where other Z19945.

anyone know what these new yellow squared information boxes represent in yfull
and
anyone know about this sample ERS256892

ShpataEMadhe
04-12-19, 11:59
African or middle east, which tribe exactly hard to say. Definitely not European or "ilyrian"

Almost non existant in Europe and where it is found in europe it probably came from slaves, invaders or minor foreign settlers

Salento
04-12-19, 15:27
African or middle east, which tribe exactly hard to say. Definitely not European or "ilyrian"
Almost non existant in Europe and where it is found in europe it probably came from slaves, invaders or minor foreign settlers
Are you y T?
fyi:
T-M184 (y T) is unusual in that it is both geographically widespread and relatively rare (considering that it originated around 40,000 years ago) ...

Y-DNA haplogroup T is found at low frequencies throughout Europe and in parts of the Middle East, North Africa, and East Africa. A famous person in Haplogroup T was Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), the third President of the United States from 1801 to 1809 ...

... some Roman Era y T:

https://i.imgur.com/WyBzvsP.jpg
y T Latin Tribe Ardea 650 BC
https://i.imgur.com/6JA9tMD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/brUJeZH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XBBd1dH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/G5aPzbo.jpg

.............

Golden Man: (ANI152 VAR 43) Elite leader individual from the Varna Culture ...
... The oldest gold treasure in the world, dating from 4,600 BC to 4,200 BC ...

http://badamba.info/live/images/chalcolithic1.jpg


...............


Karsdorf Germany (7.000 + years ago)
https://i.imgur.com/4I6daBq.jpg

Kelmendasi
04-12-19, 18:20
African or middle east, which tribe exactly hard to say. Definitely not European or "ilyrian"

Almost non existant in Europe and where it is found in europe it probably came from slaves, invaders or minor foreign settlers
Please stop talking nonsense, at least back it up with evidence if you do.

Clades under T have already been found in aDNA samples from Europe which date back to the Neolithic. T-L208 and T-L162 for example have both been found in Neolithic Bulgaria. T-M184 was also found in the Varna Culture of Bulgaria.

ShpataEMadhe
22-12-19, 00:56
Are you y T?
fyi:
T-M184 (y T) is unusual in that it is both geographically widespread and relatively rare (considering that it originated around 40,000 years ago) ...

Y-DNA haplogroup T is found at low frequencies throughout Europe and in parts of the Middle East, North Africa, and East Africa. A famous person in Haplogroup T was Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), the third President of the United States from 1801 to 1809 ...

... some Roman Era y T:

https://i.imgur.com/WyBzvsP.jpg
y T Latin Tribe Ardea 650 BC
https://i.imgur.com/6JA9tMD.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/brUJeZH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XBBd1dH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/G5aPzbo.jpg

.............

Golden Man: (ANI152 VAR 43) Elite leader individual from the Varna Culture ...
... The oldest gold treasure in the world, dating from 4,600 BC to 4,200 BC ...

http://badamba.info/live/images/chalcolithic1.jpg


...............


Karsdorf Germany (7.000 + years ago)
https://i.imgur.com/4I6daBq.jpg

I havent been tested yet

Would you say most T was spread in europe by roman empire slaves?

torzio
22-12-19, 00:59
I havent been tested yet

Would you say most T was spread in europe by roman empire slaves?

No, romans are too late.........there are T ydna in Germany, Bulgaria, balkans, france etc form the neolithic

my take, is that they ( T ydna ) where initially not farmers , but hunters ........Karsdorf is a ancient hunting ground for red-deer .......there is even H ydna found there

Salento
26-12-19, 20:14
R850 (also a y T), R437 and I do Not get R120 in the top 100.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38222-Mytrueancestry-com?p=593611&viewfull=1#post593611

R1 get R120 (y T1a2 - T-L446) in the Top 100, what about you ???

R120 .............I do not get in my top 100

CL23 the other T ydna is my #14 ...........................I do not know why they state this as iberian, when he is born in bulgaria, raised in Pannonia and died in Italy ..........maybe his mum is iberian

do you get this below from Sochi russia

52. Thraco-Cimmerian Black Sea (900 BC) ..... 15.89 - MJ12 -
Top 97% match vs all users


I do not, I get this instead:

https://i.imgur.com/zlXnRlC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/CXPrKHK.jpg


seems like in MTA......you went to europe via south of the black sea .......and I , north of the black sea

i only get this

32. Proto Thracian/Illyrian Vucedol (2775 BC) ..... 14.31 - I3499 -
Top 98% match vs all users

the sochi one

and one from 900BC

these are the Thracians I get

@Torzio ... from MTA thread, ... ‘cause of topic.

I guess it’s possible, hard to say.

torzio
26-12-19, 20:25
@Torzio ... from MTA thread, ... ‘cause of topic.

I guess it’s possible, hard to say.


It would mean that like some scholars state, T ydna formed around the caspian sea somewhere......from its split with LT haplogroup