PDA

View Full Version : If Azeris are European, why can't Turkey be part of the European nations?



Seanp
30-12-16, 22:04
I think Turkey and Turks as a nation and ethnicity can be regarded as much European as Azerbaijan is.

Edit: Maybe i posted in the wrong sub forum. "Ethno-Cultural Discussion" would fit better for this subject.

Culturally, economically, politically Turkey seems more Westernized, while Azerbaijan as a nation and ethnicity are rather on the Middle Eastern side on the spectrum.

I've nothing against Azeris, but it's just as much a far stretch if someone would say Israel can be part of the European community despite the completely different cultural basis and laws.
The closest groups in Europe living today to Azeris in terms of culture may be Tatar groups and the Turkish minority in the Balkans, with a far stretch I'd say Gagauzes and the Muslim part of the Balkans.

Boreas
31-12-16, 01:37
I think Turkey and Turks as a nation and ethnicity can be regarded as much European as Azerbaijan is.

This is the first time, I am hearing that

Azeris, European?

Goga
31-12-16, 02:11
Huge part of Azerbaijan is in northwestern part of Iran. Is Iran also 'European'? Maybe also India and China? Azeris are not European at all and have nothing to do with Europe...

Angela
31-12-16, 02:21
This is the first time, I am hearing that

Azeris, European?

Sean P is very confused...again.

Seanp
31-12-16, 02:26
Huge part of Azerbaijan is in northwestern part of Iran. Is Iran also 'European'? Maybe also India and China? Azeris are not European at all and have nothing to do with Europe...

Europe is a political term and barely has/had ever any considerable genetic, cultural homogenity for the whole continent i don't see how it's a problem. I don't want to get involved in the quality of what being European means or not. In 50 years more or less the average French or Dutch will be of Maghrebi, Balkan, Turkish descent.
Geographically vise even parts of Iberia belong to the African continent by proper measures.

Goga
31-12-16, 02:49
Europe is a political term and barely has/had ever any considerable genetic, cultural homogenity for the whole continent i don't see how it's a problem. I don't want to get involved in the quality of what being European means or not. In 50 years more or less the average French or Dutch will be of Maghrebi, Balkan, Turkish descent.
Geographically vise even parts of Iberia belong to the African continent by proper measures.You can see here South Azerbaijan as part of Iran. Is that part also Europe?

http://www.iranchamber.com/provinces/images/08.jpg

8344



Culturally and linguistically Azeris are Turkic and therefore 'Eastern'..

Boreas
31-12-16, 02:59
Europe is a political term and barely has/had ever any considerable genetic, cultural homogenity for the whole continent

Totally I agree


I don't want to get involved in the quality of what being European means or not.

It is too late. You are already in it. :grin:

Angela
31-12-16, 03:13
Europe is a political term and barely has/had ever any considerable genetic, cultural homogenity for the whole continent i don't see how it's a problem. I don't want to get involved in the quality of what being European means or not. In 50 years more or less the average French or Dutch will be of Maghrebi, Balkan, Turkish descent.
Geographically vise even parts of Iberia belong to the African continent by proper measures.

Then why the heck would you say that Azeris are "European"??????

Boreas
31-12-16, 03:15
The problem is Europeans thinking to much about word European.

Example Goga used linguistic as a criteria.
So Georgian, Hungaria & Finland are out, Kurds and Persian in?

Another Example: Genetic
What will be do with Haplogroup I people (ydna) They lived before the European migration from steppes?

Geography:
http://www.heureka.clara.net/cyprus/cyprus-map.gif

Sorry Seanp, but this is dead born topic. There is no end. It is chaotic.

Seanp
31-12-16, 03:20
Then why the heck would you say that Azeris are "European"??????

I used it as a sort of reverse psychology, because normally everybody says on these forums how European they're but forget the origin "Europe" is a Phoenician term and never used before. The modern Europe is mostly a Neo Imperialistic community which has no other interest than convince Eastern nations to join in order and take advantage of their relatively cheap workforce capital gain by investments and the appear of Multinational corporations of French and other Western interests.

Goga
31-12-16, 03:26
The problem is Europeans thinking to much about word European.

Example Goga used linguistic as a criteria.
So Georgian, Hungaria & Finland are out, Kurds and Persian in?Please, leave Kurds out. Kurdish is a West ASIAN (West Iranian/Aryan) language, native to Kurdistan since it was born in Kurdistan. Zagros Mountains are in West Asia. Ancestors of the Kurds, the Medes, were like Persians 'Aryan'/Iranian people. Aryan Medes and Aryan Persians were native to West ASIA. Nothing to do with Europe at all.

Goga
31-12-16, 03:51
Example Goga used linguistic as a criteria.I'm taking geography & culture as a criteria. If people would take language as a criteria or even religion (Christianity), then New Zealand, Australia, Canada or even the whole North & South America should be part of Europe. English, Portuguese and Spanish are European languages.

Karol šiška
31-12-16, 03:52
ive never thought of azeris as European...neither do I considers Turkish European, they are something inbetween but mainly with a middleastern culture.

Goga
31-12-16, 03:57
ive never thought of azeris as European...neither do I considers Turkish European, they are something inbetween but mainly with a middleastern culture.Constantinople is Europe. It is part of the Hellenic Christian Orthodox world.


Georgian, Armenian and Kurdish parts of Anatolia are West Asia.


It is very simple.


People of Constantinople should ignore West Asian parts of Anatolia and join the EU without Near Easern parts of Anatolia..

Joey D
31-12-16, 04:24
Well, isn't Azerbaijan part of Eurovision?

(so is Australia, but that's another story....)

Goga
31-12-16, 04:31
Well, isn't Azerbaijan part of Eurovision?

(so is Australia, but that's another story....)So is Turkey. Turkey is also part of Eurovision, UEFA etc.


Azerbaijan was part of the USSR, the Soviet/'Russian' World. But the last 20 years Azeris are going back to Islam. Also, Azerbaijan is full of natural resources (oil & gas), that's why Europe is 'playing' with Azerbaijan. Even Hitler wanted to take Baku, Azerbaijan, oil rich Caspian Sea shores (remember the battle of Stalingrad).

Georgia, Armenia = Orthodox Christian
Azerbaijan = Sunni/Shia Muslim

Boreas
31-12-16, 09:10
I'm taking geography & culture as a criteria. If people would take language as a criteria or even religion (Christianity), then New Zealand, Australia, Canada or even the whole North & South America should be part of Europe. English, Portuguese and Spanish are European languages.

Don't Worry. I don't want to classify. My point it, it is useless talking about this issue.

Because as Seanp said, it is political. Nature don't give a shit like this is European-this is not

If the cold war continued and Iron-Curtain-Berlin didn't collapse, no body would query that Turkey is in Europe or not.

Yeah some part of South America and North America is more European then East Europe



Georgian, Armenian and Kurdish parts of Anatolia are West Asia.

It is very simple.


This is just simple geograph. It doesn't solve anything. Georgians and Armenians are also consider as European in some source.

Tomenable
31-12-16, 11:28
Azeris? Armenians and Georgians are often considered European.

Mainly due to their culture, but genetic commonalities also exist.

Seanp
31-12-16, 13:26
Azeris? Armenians and Georgians are often considered European.

Mainly due to their culture, but genetic commonalities also exist.

People don't care about genetic but culture it's only important on far right forums like Theapricity and Stormfront. My impression is that There's no less or more European based on genetic. The major genetic ties in South Europe is shared with the Levant and the Greater Near East, while North Europeans have other genetic influences from Steppe and Eurasia which makes them district from South Europe.
Caucasians genetically pull closer to North Europe and more distant to Gulf Arabs than many South Europeans.

Angela
31-12-16, 18:35
Boreas:
My point it[is], it is useless talking about this issue.

I couldn't have said it better. Some threads and posts should be ignored because they're wrong on so many levels that it would take days to go through it all.

Sile
31-12-16, 19:12
I think Turkey and Turks as a nation and ethnicity can be regarded as much European as Azerbaijan is.

Edit: Maybe i posted in the wrong sub forum. "Ethno-Cultural Discussion" would fit better for this subject.

Culturally, economically, politically Turkey seems more Westernized, while Azerbaijan as a nation and ethnicity are rather on the Middle Eastern side on the spectrum.

I've nothing against Azeris, but it's just as much a far stretch if someone would say Israel can be part of the European community despite the completely different cultural basis and laws.
The closest groups in Europe living today to Azeris in terms of culture may be Tatar groups and the Turkish minority in the Balkans, with a far stretch I'd say Gagauzes and the Muslim part of the Balkans.

-In Ancient Times , Anatolia was "european" due to the ancient tribes having a non-semitic group of languages , the Hatti, Luwians, Hittite, Palaic and all the others.

-The Turks arrived in Anatolia in 1100AD from Iran via central Asia

-I cannot see why Turkey cannot enter Eurovision, but to join Europe with its non Gender equality rules is an issue ................but is Azerbaijn European, what about the Armenians then? or Georgians?

Seanp
31-12-16, 22:57
-In Ancient Times , Anatolia was "european" due to the ancient tribes having a non-semitic group of languages , the Hatti, Luwians, Hittite, Palaic and all the others.

-The Turks arrived in Anatolia in 1100AD from Iran via central Asia

-I cannot see why Turkey cannot enter Eurovision, but to join Europe with its non Gender equality rules is an issue ................but is Azerbaijn European, what about the Armenians then? or Georgians?

Anatolians were native "Indo-European" speaker tribes most likely similar people to Armenians and some Greek groups.

The "Turkic" influence on the modern Turkish population is overestimated. Most Turks today are descendants of native Anatolians, Circassians, Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians, Kurds/Persians/Sunni Arabs in the East-South regions. It's mostly a language shifted population for the most part.

Eurovision is a joke and these contests shouldn't be taken seriously, i didn't even know what it was tbh. The construct of European Union holds economical interests. Cyprus might be not part of Europe due to Geography but it's economy and culture holds enough values to be part of the EU zone, the same could be said about Lebanon, Israel which has a significant Christian/European originated minority with Mediterranean culture and might fit better economically in the European region than many Balkan states.

Karol šiška
01-01-17, 03:58
parts of south America and north America are more European than eastern Europe? that's like saying some English people are more American than Texans, that makes zero sense.

Boreas
01-01-17, 05:33
but to join Europe with its non Gender equality rules is an issue ................but is Azerbaijn European, what about the Armenians then? or Georgians?

Does Joining EU mean being European?

Gender Equality is not a criteria. It should be in all world wide.



Anatolians were native "Indo-European" speaker tribes most likely similar people to Armenians and some Greek groups.

The "Turkic" influence on the modern Turkish population is overestimated. Most Turks today are descendants of native Anatolians, Circassians, Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians, Kurds/Persians/Sunni Arabs in the East-South regions. It's mostly a language shifted population for the most part.


:grin:



Eurovision is a joke and these contests shouldn't be taken seriously, i didn't even know what it was tbh. The construct of European Union holds economical interests. Cyprus might be not part of Europe due to Geography but it's economy and culture holds enough values to be part of the EU zone, the same could be said about Lebanon, Israel which has a significant Christian/European originated minority with Mediterranean culture and might fit better economically in the European region than many Balkan states.

Same as how gender equality can't be criteria, Christianity is also can't be.

Armenian are Orient Orthodox which is none related with Europe. If you allow them just for being Christian. Will you say Assyrians and Coptic are also European?


parts of south America and north America are more European than eastern Europe? that's like saying some English people are more American than Texans, that makes zero sense.

As a Balkan country, I know that it sounds like I am swearing you.

But this is what it is.

As Roman proverb "Africa begins at Naples" (Roman saying)" I don't put East European and Balkan Countries in Europe Category.

Tomenable
01-01-17, 19:48
My impression is that There's no less or more European based on genetic. The major genetic ties in South Europe is shared with the Levant and the Greater Near East, while North Europeans have other genetic influences from Steppe and Eurasia which makes them district from South Europe.

You are mistaken. Europeans form a cluster of their own, with MENA populations forming another cluster.

Jewish populations plot between Europeans and MENAs, which is consistent with their admixture history:

(some Greeks plot closer to MENAs than to Europeans, but they are obviously Anatolian / Pontic Greeks):

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images/nature13673-f2.jpg

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images/nature13673-f2.jpg

David Reich mentioned these two clusters also in his lecture here:

https://videocast.nih.gov/summary.asp?Live=19940&bhcp=1

As for Armenians - they plot closer to Europe than other MENAs:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n6/full/ejhg2015206a.html

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n6/images/ejhg2015206f2.jpg

Seanp
01-01-17, 22:50
[QUOTE=Tomenable;498317]...[/QE]

Europeans don't form a cluster maybe a Swede overlap with a Norwegian to an extent, but that's it and those nations been mixing for centuries. South Europeans more or less will plot halfway between Middle East and North Europe and that's correlates with known migration history and geographical distances more or less.
The Southernmost Europeans are closer to Northern Middle East/Levant than to any groups north of the Alps.

Other maps show way greater distances between each European populations, but as I've been said and others on this forum autosomal maps can't be taken guaranteed.

https://i.imgur.com/2ufwMeL.png
http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/image5.png

https://forwhattheywereweare.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/bauchet07k5.png