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Angela
31-12-16, 20:13
See:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/24701394.2016.1258406?journalCode=imdn21:

Rym Kefi et al:
On the origin of Iberomaurusians: new data based on ancient mitochondrial DNA and phylogenetic analysis of Afalou and Taforalt populations
"The Western North African population was characterized by the presence of Iberomaurusian civilization at the Epiplaeolithic period (around 20,000 years before present (YBP) to 10,000 YBP). The origin of this population is still not clear: they may come from Europe, Near East, sub-Saharan Africa or they could have evolved in situ in North Africa. With the aim to contribute to a better knowledge of the settlement of North Africa we analysed the mitochondrial DNA extracted from Iberomaurusian skeletons exhumed from the archaeological site of Afalou (AFA) (15,000–11,000 YBP) in Algeria and from the archaeological site of Taforalt (TAF) (23,000–10,800 YBP) in Morocco. Then, we carried out a phylogenetic analysis relating these Iberomaurusians to 61 current Mediterranean populations.

The genetic structure of TAF and AFA specimens contains only North African and Eurasian maternal lineages. These finding demonstrate the presence of these haplotypes in North Africa from at least 20,000 YBP. The very low contribution of a Sub-Saharan African haplotype in the Iberomaurusian samples is confirmed. We also highlighted the existence of genetic flows between Southern and Northern coast of the Mediterranean."

I don't have access to the paper, unfortunately.

kingjohn
31-12-16, 20:23
i also don't have excess
but going through the net :)
the mtdna that were found :
https://s30.postimg.org/4mt6niqox/iberomaurusianhaplogroups.png
https://s29.postimg.org/9ewm9gwjr/iberomaurusianpcamap.png

personaly the biggest surprise is that they didn't found any L mtdna
maybe it came with capsian culture :)
regards
adam

Angela
31-12-16, 20:40
i also don't have excess
but going through the net :)
the mtdna that were found :
https://s30.postimg.org/4mt6niqox/iberomaurusianhaplogroups.png
https://s29.postimg.org/9ewm9gwjr/iberomaurusianpcamap.png

personaly the biggest surprise is that they didn't found any L mtdna
maybe it came with capsian culture :)
regards
adam

Thanks for the links.

Same old problem. Only HVS so you can't even tell if it's H or U most of the time.

Then, 23,000-10,800 YBP is a huge swathe of time with the young periods allowing for the inflow from the Near East. Maybe if someone has access to the whole paper they can let us know if certain mtDna shows up at certain specific times.

bicicleur
31-12-16, 23:24
Iberomauru
U6 would have spread through Iberomauru

Fire Haired14
01-01-17, 04:02
This doesn't surprise me. Africa is a huge Continent, northern Africa might have always been apart of the Eurasian gene pool. Saying Eurasian ancestry is foreign to Northern Africa might be as false as saying ANE is foreign to Eastern Asia.

From the abstract...

The very low contribution of a Sub-Saharan African haplotype in the Iberomaurusian samples is confirmed.

*Low* not 0. So some may have had Sub Saharan African L.


We also highlighted the existence of genetic flows between Southern and Northern coast of the Mediterranean.

This to me suggests they had some Paleo Europeish mtDNA or they had (modern)Europeanish mtDNA. The authors might still treat modern Europeanish mtDNA like H1 as Paleo European. Today NorthWest Africa's mtDNA haplogroup composition contains lots of typical European lineages; H1, H3, V, J1c, U5. It's possible somehow Paleo NorthWest Africans either shared common ancestry with EEF or their descendants 1,000s of years later migrated into Europe and brought the loads of H1, H3 we see in Neolithic Iberia.

Fire Haired14
01-01-17, 05:00
I got free access to the paper. No reason to discuss how:). They only tested the HV1 region of mtDNA, like ancient mTDNA studies 5-10 years ago. Most of their samples had HV1 region results tested and published back in 2005. The HV1 results haven't changed. A large percentage of the samples have no differences with rCRS in the HV1 region, like a large percentage of ancient mtDNA results from Europe did 10 years ago. I'm very skeptical about the legitimacy of the results.

bicicleur
01-01-17, 11:46
http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2012/12/disentangling-histories-of-mtdna.html

Iberomaurisian and Halfan (in the Nile Valley) go together.
It is the first industry in Africa with backed bladelets. They use the burin technique which is also used for production of geometric microliths in Kebaran and Zarzian.
It is a technique which arived in SW Asia from India during LGM.
IMO mtDNA M1 and U6 spread into Africa from the Levant with Halfan and Iberomaurisian.
U6 has also been observed in the paleolithic Balkan but seems to have gone extinct there.

Maciamo
01-01-17, 11:58
If the results posted by kingjohn are correct, there are lots of surprises.

https://s30.postimg.org/4mt6niqox/iberomaurusianhaplogroups.png

I personally expected to find, M1, H1, H3, U6 and HV0/V. Only H1 and U6 are present, although in all fairness HV0, V and most H3 subclades cannot be identified using only the HVRI region.

What is unexpected is the presence of U4a2b, which is now found in central and northern Europe (including Russia), but was also found in a Sumerian city in Syria. What is it doing in he Palaeolithic/Mesolithic Maghreb?

U4c1, H2a1, and H6a1 are just as odd as it is typical of Northeast Europe, Central Asia, the Caucasus and Iran. H6a1 was found in Yamna and H2a1 in the Corded Ware and Catacomb cultures.

Then what should be do of H14b1, a subclade found in Iran, Turkey, Germany and France, but not in Iberia or North Africa to my knowledge.

Even the age of the clades appear much too young for the Epipalaeolithic. I doubt that H2a1e1a and H6a1a8 are over 10,000 years old. Yet they give 100% confidence to the latter. Very dubious.

J1c3f and T2b probably have East Mediterranean or Caucasian origins and would not have been found in the Maghreb before the Neolithic, if at all. In fact, J1c3f is restricted to northern Europe, the North Caucasus and Kazakhstan.

Even R0a1a is a bit out of place. It is mostly restricted to the Arabian peninsula and East Africa today. Although a few samples have been found in Southeast Europe, it is not found in Northwest Africa, AFAIK.

I am wondering if these are the actual results. If they are, could they have been entirely fabricated?

berun
01-01-17, 12:02
Iberomaurisian... you might take into account the Ibero- side of the name: the Gibraltar Strait was even less wide in the LGM and people were able to cross it easily to colonize the Maghrib. It's interesting to found there H1, which confirms the presence of H1 in Mesolithic Portugal. If this clade was native of Western Europe and Neolithic genetic samples are providing almost a lack of this clade except in Portugal, the history about H1 expanding from the Atlantic refuge in the calcho fits well.


Even the age of the clades appear much too young for the Epipalaeolithic. I doubt that H2a1e1a and H6a1a8 are over 10,000 years old. Yet they give 100% confidence to the latter. Very dubious.

The supposed age of such subcaldes how was calculated?

kingjohn
01-01-17, 17:31
dear maciamo,
these are the real results
but as firehaired14 mention
they only tested HVS-I
so who knows how much reliable those results are ??
best regards
adam

p.s
surprising indid not to found mtdna L or H3

now i see jean.m updated her ancient dna site :
you can see those new results in this link :
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/nafricaadna.shtml

Fire Haired14
01-01-17, 20:36
This study produced brand new results for Afalou and represented results they got for Taforalt individuals in 2005. For both sets of individuals only the HVS1 region of mtDNA was tested. It can be difficult to determine haplogroup with just the HVS1 region especially for ancient populations whose mtDNA haplogroup composition is unknown. If we only got HVS1 region results for Paleolithic Europe most Us could only be labelled as R because many lacked the HVS1 markers which define modern U clades.

I'm not confident any of the results in this paper are legitimate. Whomever the the Afalou mtDNA is really from they without a doubt belonged to T2b, J, and R0a1a. The others can only be labeled as R. In most West Eurasian populations HVS1 profiles like theirs are some form of H. T2b, J, H, and R0a1a in Paleolithic NorthWest AFrica doesn't sound too crazy too me.

A few of the Afalou and Taforalt samples share HVS1 haplotypes. There's definitly sometype of relationship either through contmination from the same person or a common maternal ancestor. The haplogroup labeled for most of the Taforalt individuals are speculative. Some HVS profiles can't confidently be assigned to a haplogroup. If they were modern West Eurasian individuals I would guess most were H, including the ones labelled as U4.

No H1 SNP was tested! We have no way of knowing whether the indvidual labeled as H1 had H1. I wish this study mentioned how speculative many of their haplogroup labels are.

Olympus Mons
01-01-17, 21:43
...we only got HVS1 region results for...

Then we need the be aware which references, comments, theories, posts and general arguments are based on HVS1 as well so that we can trash all those. Right?

I wonder how much Mtdna, say for instance in Jean M site, as I suppose many others, is to be trashed.

Megalophias
01-01-17, 22:27
Then we need the be aware which references, comments, theories, posts and general arguments are based on HVS1 as well so that we can trash all those. Right?
Not everything based on HVS I has to be thrown out, of course, but you should certainly be aware of its serious limitations.

Jean Manco includes the source for every sample and the mutations used to assign the haplogroup as well, so you don't have to wonder; you only need to check.

Olympus Mons
01-01-17, 23:10
Not everything based on HVS I has to be thrown out, of course, but you should certainly be aware of its serious limitations.

Jean Manco includes the source for every sample and the mutations used to assign the haplogroup as well, so you don't have to wonder; you only need to check.


my point isn't if she makes it available. was not questioning her site. Is if people use such references as valid when it suits them and call it into question when it doesn't. That is the definition of confirmation bias or motivational reasoning.

How much of the Mtdna in her website comes from HVS1 , therefore we should say that it should not be used. Or if one uses sometimes, then has to accept it as valid references.

Angela
01-01-17, 23:49
my point isn't if she makes it available. was not questioning her site. Is if people use such references as valid when it suits them and call it into question when it doesn't. That is the definition of confirmation bias or motivational reasoning.

How much of the Mtdna in her website comes from HVS1 , therefore we should say that it should not be used. Or if one uses sometimes, then has to accept it as valid references.

No, it shouldn't work that way. Each result should be examined individually, as to methodology, results of other samples from similar time periods and areas, dating results, archaeology etc.

bicicleur
02-01-17, 00:19
my point isn't if she makes it available. was not questioning her site. Is if people use such references as valid when it suits them and call it into question when it doesn't. That is the definition of confirmation bias or motivational reasoning.

How much of the Mtdna in her website comes from HVS1 , therefore we should say that it should not be used. Or if one uses sometimes, then has to accept it as valid references.

read it



Ibero-Maurusian / Mechtoid
Morocco
Grotte des Pigeons, Taforalt [TafI-21, TafII, TafV5, TafV7, TafV20, TafXVa, TafXV0, TafXVII, TafXIX, TafXX-6]

23,000–10,800 cal BP


H or U
10 samples of CRS (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnaintro.shtml#CRS) in HVI
Kefi 2005 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Kefi2005) ; Kefi 2016



10 samples of CRS (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnaintro.shtml#CRS) in HVI

clear? no?



Ibero-Maurusian
Morocco
Taforalt [Taf55-I]

23,000–10,800 cal BP


R0a1a
16126C 16355T
Kefi 2005; 2016



here 2 SNPs are specified
clear?

same goes for this :



Epicardial
Spain
Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 01, 02, and 06]
M
5000 BC

G2a
M287-, P15+, Giv in STR table (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml)
K1a
3 samples 16093C; 16224C; 16311C
Lacan 2011b (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lacan2011b)


Epicardial
Spain
Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 03]
M
5000 BC

G2a
M287-, P15+, Giv in STR table (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml)
H3
T6776C
Lacan 2011b (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lacan2011b)


Epicardial
Spain
Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 04]
F
5000 BC



T2b
16126C, 16294T, 16296T, 16304C
Lacan 2011b (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lacan2011b)


Epicardial
Spain
Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 05]
M
5000 BC

G2a
M287-, P15+, Giv in STR table (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml)
T2b
16126C, 16294T, 16296T, 16304C
Lacan 2011b (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lacan2011b)


Epicardial
Spain
Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 07]
M
5000 BC

E1b1b1a1b1a
M35.1, V13, Ei in STR table (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml)
U5
16051G; 16189C; 16270T
Lacan 2011b (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lacan2011b)



this is on STR, not SNP

sorry, there was no E-V13 5000 BC, impossible simply because TMRCA of E-V13 is only about 4.3 ka
there was something similar to E-V13, maybe even pré-E-V13 but not E-V13 itself

yet many here claim E-V13 in Avelaner Cave 5000 BC, and I can't persuade them it is not so

ratchet_fan
28-06-20, 17:43
http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2012/12/disentangling-histories-of-mtdna.html

Iberomaurisian and Halfan (in the Nile Valley) go together.
It is the first industry in Africa with backed bladelets. They use the burin technique which is also used for production of geometric microliths in Kebaran and Zarzian.
It is a technique which arived in SW Asia from India during LGM.
IMO mtDNA M1 and U6 spread into Africa from the Levant with Halfan and Iberomaurisian.
U6 has also been observed in the paleolithic Balkan but seems to have gone extinct there.

What? The Zarzian is native to SW Asia as far as I know. What makes you think it arrived from India? I think Zarzian also expanded to Central Asia (maybe explaining y K in Northern Eurasia)