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Seanp
02-01-17, 00:38
Western Europe due to low birth rate and other effects will face a dramatic change in the ethnic and cultural make up of the society. It seems to me their leaders can't talk about pro immigration or anti immigration anymore but face with the most possible:
How to live in a multicultural society?

With more migrations from the Middle East and Northern Africa the Western regions of Europe will face with significant ethnographic, cultural changes. Can a hybrid society made by Christian&Atheistic citizens and Islam be possible?

During the Islam conquest of Iberia, the Andalusian region became a hybrid society of Native, Arabic and Jewish culture and these cultures did mix with each, so the possibility of less radical Islam and Christianity to form together and make a hybrid society is quite possible especially with mixed marriages.

The society of al-Andalus was made up of three main religious groups: Christians, Muslims, and Jews. The Muslims, though united on the religious level, had several ethnic divisions, the main being the distinction between the Berbers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people) and the Arabs. Mozarabs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozarab) were Christians who had long lived under Muslim rule, adopting many Arabic customs, art, and words, while still maintaining their Christian rituals and their own Romance languages. Each of these communities inhabited distinct neighborhoods in the cities. In the 10th century a massive conversion of Christians took place, and muladies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muladi) (Muslims of native Iberian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula) origin), formed the majority of Muslims. The Muladies had spoken in a Romance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages) dialect of Latin called Mozarabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozarabic_language) while increasingly adopting the Arabic language, which eventually evolved into the Andalusi Arabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusi_Arabic) in which Muslims, Jews, and Christians became monolingual in the last surviving Muslim state in the Iberian Peninsula, the Emirate of Granada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Granada) (1232-1492). Eventually, the Muladies, and later the Berber tribes, adopted an Arabic identity like the majority of subject people in Egypt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt), the Levant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant), Mesopotamia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia), and North Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa). Muladies, together with other Muslims, comprised eighty percent of the population of al-Andalus by around 1100.[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEGlick1999Chapter_5:_Ethnic_Relations-23)[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#cite_note-24)
The Jewish population worked mainly as tax collectors, in trade (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade), or as doctors or ambassadors. At the end of the 15th century there were about 50,000 Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews) in Granada and roughly 100,000 in the whole of Islamic Iberia.[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#cite_note-25)

Source: Wikipedia

bicicleur
02-01-17, 09:01
you forget to tell where it ended

the Morish socety was founded by the Umayyad dynasty who invaded Gibraltar and drove the Visigoths north
the Almohavides were not very strict Muslims, in fact that is why they were driven out of Baghdad

they were overthrown by the North African fundamentalist Muslim Almohavide dynasty who accused the Umayyads of decadence and not living acording to strict Islam rules
the Almohavides were not tolerant at all

the Almohavides were finaly beaten by the Christian kings from the north
it ended in a rule under a fundamentalistic Christian Habsburg dynasty

the last few decades political correctness tells multiculturalism is working in Europe while in fact it is not
there is a culture clash
I wonder where it will end

Fire Haired14
02-01-17, 09:38
I agree multiculturalism in Europe will work out in the end. I think it will work out because I think Muslims will eventually assimilate. Eventually many European countries will be pretty multi-racial and maybe multi-ethnic like America.

bicicleur
02-01-17, 10:38
being multi-racial or multi-ethnic does not mean it works, unless being multi-racial or multi-ethnic is the sole purpose

Yetos
02-01-17, 12:06
Western Europe due to low birth rate and other effects will face a dramatic change in the ethnic and cultural make up of the society. It seems to me their leaders can't talk about pro immigration or anti immigration anymore but face with the most possible:
How to live in a multicultural society?

With more migrations from the Middle East and Northern Africa the Western regions of Europe will face with significant ethnographic, cultural changes. Can a hybrid society made by Christian&Atheistic citizens and Islam be possible?

During the Islam conquest of Iberia, the Andalusian region became a hybrid society of Native, Arabic and Jewish culture and these cultures did mix with each, so the possibility of less radical Islam and Christianity to form together and make a hybrid society is quite possible especially with mixed marriages.

The society of al-Andalus was made up of three main religious groups: Christians, Muslims, and Jews. The Muslims, though united on the religious level, had several ethnic divisions, the main being the distinction between the Berbers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people) and the Arabs. Mozarabs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozarab) were Christians who had long lived under Muslim rule, adopting many Arabic customs, art, and words, while still maintaining their Christian rituals and their own Romance languages. Each of these communities inhabited distinct neighborhoods in the cities. In the 10th century a massive conversion of Christians took place, and muladies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muladi) (Muslims of native Iberian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula) origin), formed the majority of Muslims. The Muladies had spoken in a Romance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages) dialect of Latin called Mozarabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozarabic_language) while increasingly adopting the Arabic language, which eventually evolved into the Andalusi Arabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusi_Arabic) in which Muslims, Jews, and Christians became monolingual in the last surviving Muslim state in the Iberian Peninsula, the Emirate of Granada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Granada) (1232-1492). Eventually, the Muladies, and later the Berber tribes, adopted an Arabic identity like the majority of subject people in Egypt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt), the Levant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant), Mesopotamia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia), and North Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa). Muladies, together with other Muslims, comprised eighty percent of the population of al-Andalus by around 1100.[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEGlick1999Chapter_5:_Ethnic_Relations-23)[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#cite_note-24)
The Jewish population worked mainly as tax collectors, in trade (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade), or as doctors or ambassadors. At the end of the 15th century there were about 50,000 Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews) in Granada and roughly 100,000 in the whole of Islamic Iberia.[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#cite_note-25)

Source: Wikipedia



hmmm,

I wonder how it worked at Lebanon, Syrria, Egypt Cyprus etc etc

bicicleur
02-01-17, 13:10
hmmm,

I wonder how it worked at Lebanon, Syrria, Egypt Cyprus etc etc

from a Muslim point of view, it works

DuPidh
02-01-17, 14:38
Western Europe due to low birth rate and other effects will face a dramatic change in the ethnic and cultural make up of the society. It seems to me their leaders can't talk about pro immigration or anti immigration anymore but face with the most possible:
How to live in a multicultural society?

With more migrations from the Middle East and Northern Africa the Western regions of Europe will face with significant ethnographic, cultural changes. Can a hybrid society made by Christian&Atheistic citizens and Islam be possible?

During the Islam conquest of Iberia, the Andalusian region became a hybrid society of Native, Arabic and Jewish culture and these cultures did mix with each, so the possibility of less radical Islam and Christianity to form together and make a hybrid society is quite possible especially with mixed marriages.

The society of al-Andalus was made up of three main religious groups: Christians, Muslims, and Jews. The Muslims, though united on the religious level, had several ethnic divisions, the main being the distinction between the Berbers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people) and the Arabs. Mozarabs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozarab) were Christians who had long lived under Muslim rule, adopting many Arabic customs, art, and words, while still maintaining their Christian rituals and their own Romance languages. Each of these communities inhabited distinct neighborhoods in the cities. In the 10th century a massive conversion of Christians took place, and muladies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muladi) (Muslims of native Iberian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula) origin), formed the majority of Muslims. The Muladies had spoken in a Romance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages) dialect of Latin called Mozarabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozarabic_language) while increasingly adopting the Arabic language, which eventually evolved into the Andalusi Arabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusi_Arabic) in which Muslims, Jews, and Christians became monolingual in the last surviving Muslim state in the Iberian Peninsula, the Emirate of Granada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Granada) (1232-1492). Eventually, the Muladies, and later the Berber tribes, adopted an Arabic identity like the majority of subject people in Egypt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt), the Levant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant), Mesopotamia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia), and North Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa). Muladies, together with other Muslims, comprised eighty percent of the population of al-Andalus by around 1100.[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEGlick1999Chapter_5:_Ethnic_Relations-23)[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#cite_note-24)
The Jewish population worked mainly as tax collectors, in trade (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade), or as doctors or ambassadors. At the end of the 15th century there were about 50,000 Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews) in Granada and roughly 100,000 in the whole of Islamic Iberia.[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus#cite_note-25)

Source: Wikipedia


I know one thing: Gypsies have been living in Europe for at least 700 years. They are still not been accepted as people of Europe. They still live in separate quarters. Why should Arabs be accepted?

bicicleur
02-01-17, 14:58
I know one thing: Gypsies have been living in Europe for at least 700 years. They are still not been accepted as people of Europe. They still live in separate quarters. Why should Arabs be accepted?

who told you so ?
where gypsies not accepted or did gypsies refuse to integrate in European society ?
many refuse to settle and chose to live a different life

Yetos
02-01-17, 15:36
I know one thing: Gypsies have been living in Europe for at least 700 years. They are still not been accepted as people of Europe. They still live in separate quarters. Why should Arabs be accepted?

Dupidh,

Gypsies the last 50 years are not the gypsies as you knew them, or as we want them to be,
I inform you that many gypsies and roma, are doctors lawers, engineers etc etc,
the last 50 years, those who wanted to desert the tribal and roaming way of life, are accepted everywhere,
those who still want to live the old way, of tribe and roam, are still not accepted.

Europe is accepting colours, and foreigners, if they stay in coordinate of her culture,
Europe does not accept foreign culture, and those who want to turn her to something else,

DuPidh
02-01-17, 15:47
Dupidh,

Gypsies the last 50 years are not the gypsies as you knew them, or as we want them to be,
I inform you that many gypsies and roma, are doctors lawers, engineers etc etc,
the last 50 years, those who wanted to desert the tribal and roaming way of life, are accepted everywhere,
those who still want to live the old way, of tribe and roam, are still not accepted.

Europe is accepting colours, and foreigners, if they stay in coordinate of her culture,
Europe does not accept foreign culture, and those who want to turn her to something else,
Only Brasil has embraced races!

gyms
02-01-17, 16:45
who told you so ?
where gypsies not accepted or did gypsies refuse to integrate in European society ?
many refuse to settle and chose to live a different life

This is a list of notable Romani people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people) and people of Romani origin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romani_people

gyms
02-01-17, 17:15
Famous Gypsies (... Elvis Presley/Pressler):

http://www.imninalu.net/famousGypsies.htm

(Big Lucky Carter és/and Zerkula János)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebxk0Q07-yY

gyms
02-01-17, 18:52
I am Karos 12 & 17.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00438-016-1267-z

You are not Gergő. http://www.folkinfo.hu/agocs/
What's your y-haplogroup?

Seanp
02-01-17, 18:53
Only Brasil has embraced races!

There's a strong racial segregation in Brazil, because Latin America has built it's own society around the status of origin and race. Most Afro Latin Americans make the lowest class today and barely any of these people have chance to attempt proper education and start equally even from the beginning, while White Latin Americans study in private schools and run the country and media.

It's a merely mistake around 50000 Brazilians die by gunshot or gang wars each year.


Famous Gypsies (... Elvis Presley/Pressler):


Elvis Presley was a partially Irish Traveler, not a proper Romani of Balkanic origin.


you forget to tell where it ended

the Morish socety was founded by the Umayyad dynasty who invaded Gibraltar and drove the Visigoths north
the Almohavides were not very strict Muslims, in fact that is why they were driven out of Baghdad

they were overthrown by the North African fundamentalist Muslim Almohavide dynasty who accused the Umayyads of decadence and not living acording to strict Islam rules
the Almohavides were not tolerant at all

the Almohavides were finaly beaten by the Christian kings from the north
it ended in a rule under a fundamentalistic Christian Habsburg dynasty

the last few decades political correctness tells multiculturalism is working in Europe while in fact it is not
there is a culture clash
I wonder where it will end

The values of modern Europe were made for a multicultural society. Even the word "Europe" is a term which has an attempt to break tribal and national interests for an unification. The same thing will happen when the next millions of African newborn children attempt the same schools as their "native" countrymen. What's the point of EU other than accomplish close economical ties with it's members thus provide a free migration between each nations?

Modern Europe require immigration due to lower workforce and birthrates. There's no interest to hold a cultural value when it's clear that cultural values just prevent assimilation.
It's a wet dream for nationalists that European values should be hold, while it's the complete opposite. Tell me what's the modern European values?
The culture is being formed by America. The dressings, cars are being made in China. Our religion is Atheism and Darwinism with a weakening Jude-Christianity by each year. .

LeBrok
02-01-17, 19:02
Oh Seanup, you scared all the conservatives here, lol. Now they are going to spend the rest of the day reinforcing their beliefs how to save their civilization from all the Muslims, and other foreigners, and the socialists, and the bankers, and all the conspiracies against them.

Yetos
02-01-17, 19:15
Oh Seanup, you scared all the conservatives here, lol. Now they are going to spend the rest of the day reinforcing their beliefs how to save their civilization from all the Muslims, and other foreigners, and the socialists, and the bankers, and all the conspiracies against them.

a healthy body organismos is the one that creates antiviotics, αντισωματα antibody, but also can heal the wounds, and generally fights,

if the body organism does not fight means its dead,
So I am happy cause as it seems Europe is still HEALTHY.
and I hope soon to get rid the viruses that came from across the ocean through GS, and all those who get affected by them,

Many diseases also comes the 'sick brain' and corrupt soul (psycology).

yet I am afraid, that Europe's organismos is heavily being attacked,
and I do not know how it will react, or how serious damaged will get.

gyms
02-01-17, 20:11
[QUOTE=Seanp;498376]There's a strong racial segregation in Brazil, because Latin America has built it's own society around the status of origin and race. Most Afro Latin Americans make the lowest class today and barely any of these people have chance to attempt proper education and start equally even from the beginning, while White Latin Americans study in private schools and run the country and media.

It's a merely mistake around 50000 Brazilians die by gunshot or gang wars each year.



Elvis Presley was a partially Irish Traveler, not a proper Romani of Balkanic origin.



The values of modern Europe were made for a multicultural society. Even the word "Europe" is a term which has an attempt to break tribal and national interests for an unification. The same thing will happen when the next millions of African newborn children attempt the same schools as their "native" countrymen. What's the point of EU other than accomplish close economical ties with it's members thus provide a free migration between each nations?

Modern Europe require immigration due to lower workforce and birthrates. There's no interest to hold a cultural value when it's clear that cultural values just prevent assimilation.
It's a wet dream for nationalists that European values should be hold, while it's the complete opposite. Tell me what's the modern European values?
The culture is being formed by America. The dressings, cars are being made in China. Our religion is Atheism and Darwinism with a weakening Jude


You are not Agócs Gergely!!!You are a blamed liberal *****!

https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag%C3%B3cs_Gergely

LeBrok
02-01-17, 22:33
You are not Agócs Gergely!!!You are a blamed liberal *****!

https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag%C3%B3cs_GergelyWhy are you worring so much? Your omnipotent god should save you, no? Unless, he doesn't give a squat about you and christianity in general? Or maybe he is not there?
Seems like you are more willing to save your god than your god willing to save you. How unfortunate.
Fear, fear, Liberals are coming, lol.

LeBrok
02-01-17, 22:38
a healthy body organismos is the one that creates antiviotics, αντισωματα antibody, but also can heal the wounds, and generally fights,

if the body organism does not fight means its dead,
So I am happy cause as it seems Europe is still HEALTHY.
and I hope soon to get rid the viruses that came from across the ocean through GS, and all those who get affected by them,

Many diseases also comes the 'sick brain' and corrupt soul (psycology).

yet I am afraid, that Europe's organismos is heavily being attacked,
and I do not know how it will react, or how serious damaged will get.I'm sure if Socrates heard you he would cry. You are the mob who killed him.

bicicleur
03-01-17, 09:23
There's a strong racial segregation in Brazil, because Latin America has built it's own society around the status of origin and race. Most Afro Latin Americans make the lowest class today and barely any of these people have chance to attempt proper education and start equally even from the beginning, while White Latin Americans study in private schools and run the country and media.

It's a merely mistake around 50000 Brazilians die by gunshot or gang wars each year.



Elvis Presley was a partially Irish Traveler, not a proper Romani of Balkanic origin.



The values of modern Europe were made for a multicultural society. Even the word "Europe" is a term which has an attempt to break tribal and national interests for an unification. The same thing will happen when the next millions of African newborn children attempt the same schools as their "native" countrymen. What's the point of EU other than accomplish close economical ties with it's members thus provide a free migration between each nations?

Modern Europe require immigration due to lower workforce and birthrates. There's no interest to hold a cultural value when it's clear that cultural values just prevent assimilation.
It's a wet dream for nationalists that European values should be hold, while it's the complete opposite. Tell me what's the modern European values?
The culture is being formed by America. The dressings, cars are being made in China. Our religion is Atheism and Darwinism with a weakening Jude-Christianity by each year. .

Europe does not need immigration and in the future it will need even less.
And if so, only people with special skills should be allowed.
What enters Europe today are mostly unskilled people, 15 - 20 % is even completley illiterate.
Free immigration is utopia, it exists nowhere in the world and it would not be sustainable.
Belgium is 30.500 km² with 11 million inhabitants.
We would do fine with 7-8 million.
The same applies to the whole of northwest Europe.

Seanp
03-01-17, 11:12
Europe does not need immigration and in the future it will need even less.
And if so, only people with special skills should be allowed.
What enters Europe today are mostly unskilled people, 15 - 20 % is even completley illiterate.
Free immigration is utopia, it exists nowhere in the world and it would not be sustainable.
Belgium is 30.500 km² with 11 million inhabitants.
We would do fine with 7-8 million.
The same applies to the whole of northwest Europe.


I agree and disagree. From a point of view special skills are needed to attempt a job at administration, but what percent of native Europeans want to be street cleaners, McDonald workers or attempt any blue collar jobs. From a leaders view Europe *may need a new social class of unskilled workers in order to fulfill jobs that natives neglect.

Let's be honest - One of the main reasons why the European life quality (mainly the Western part) is above the World standard is because these nations still own significant shares of National and Multinational corporations still keep operating in Africa and Asia to gain profit. France still has interest to influence the North African and Malian policy include industries.

Most of the wars in West Africa still going on because of Western interests barely for it's citizens.


For France, the situation in Mali was a national security issue, because its nuclear industry depends largely on exploiting uranium in the Sahel. Moreover, France is one of the countries with the greatest dependence on nuclear energy because more than 75% of its energy production depends on its 58 nuclear plants.

So it is clear that behind the sophistry of the fight against Al Qaeda, what was sought with this war was to shelter uranium concessions of the French multinational Areva in the territories in dispute in Mali and Niger. Maybe that was why the United States and its European partners only offered timid logistical help, because they knew that what was intended was to safeguard the strategic interests of Areva, the State-owned conglomerate, a world leader in the field of nuclear energy.

Mali is the third gold producer in Africa and the eighth in the world, and for over a decade gold has become its main export product, whose holdings are controlled largely by French companies.

Mali and Niger are holders of one of the largest uranium reserves in the world and most of those sites are in the conflict zone and on the border between both countries. In the territory of Agadez in northern Niger, in the Mali-Nigerian border, Areva, through two subsidiaries, controls the uranium exploitation mines of Arlit and Akauta.

bicicleur
03-01-17, 12:34
I agree and disagree. From a point of view special skills are needed to attempt a job at administration, but what percent of native Europeans want to be street cleaners, McDonald workers or attempt any blue collar jobs. From a leaders view Europe *may need a new social class of unskilled workers in order to fulfill jobs that natives neglect.

Let's be honest - One of the main reasons why the European life quality (mainly the Western part) is above the World standard is because these nations still own significant shares of National and Multinational corporations still keep operating in Africa and Asia to gain profit. France still has interest to influence the North African and Malian policy include industries.

Most of the wars in West Africa still going on because of Western interests barely for it's citizens.

the problem is an overgenerous social security system based on heavy taxing in Europe
people shouldn't be allowed to live on social welfare if they are able to clean the streets or have a McDonalds job
that goes for both autochtones and immigrants
the system attracts the unskilled immigrants and many of them never become productive in Europe

I don't share your point of view as if some form of post-colonialism would still be present in Africa
the main problem in these countries is corruption and internal struggles

afaik there is no immeadiate problem with uranium reserves worldwide which should cause nuclear power plants to fall without fuel the next decades

DuPidh
03-01-17, 18:22
Europe does not need immigration and in the future it will need even less.
And if so, only people with special skills should be allowed.
What enters Europe today are mostly unskilled people, 15 - 20 % is even completley illiterate.
Free immigration is utopia, it exists nowhere in the world and it would not be sustainable.
Belgium is 30.500 km² with 11 million inhabitants.
We would do fine with 7-8 million.
The same applies to the whole of northwest Europe.

Finally some one with common sense! Europe will not need an extra foreign workforce in the future even if European population numbers go down. First if its numbers go down will not need to maintain current production rate since will have fewer people to feed. Second in case it needs to maintain the current production case that can be substituted by automation technology. Third family planning will eventually reach Arab world so they will not have extra people to export. Europe as it it is is a force of science. No Arabs needed, no Africans, no Indians and certainly no Chinese.

LeBrok
03-01-17, 18:50
Let's be honest - One of the main reasons why the European life quality (mainly the Western part) is above the World standard is because these nations still own significant shares of National and Multinational corporations still keep operating in Africa and Asia to gain profit. France still has interest to influence the North African and Malian policy include industries.

Most of the wars in West Africa still going on because of Western interests barely for it's citizens. Really? Again you are trying to understand 21st century using 19th century ideologies and measures. It won't work and it explains why you are lost in modern world.

Seanp
03-01-17, 19:17
Really? Again you are trying to understand 21st century using 19th century ideologies and measures. It won't work and it explains why you are lost in modern world.

Where would be the USA and the "West" without China and it's cheap workforce? Where would be the US without wars operation in Syria in order for Oil resources and to maintain control.
China had started it's operations in Africa just like the French did and still does in Mali. The distribution of the word's resources between leader nations and corporations still keep moving in.

A single nation can crash under the pressure of single interests. Very few people have control over millions and it's still even worse when it comes to Multinational corporations where only the investors interest is the dominant mechanism.
Someone like George Soros can control a single nation by a shorting option in the market. Wealth and it's distributions allow economic barons to maintain control over any nations.

Which nation today has an ownership over bank system? The simple answer is none according to my knowledge. All other banks share interest with FED (Federal Reserve System) which is a private corporation owned by a very few. This corporation has the right to "print" money in order to give loan to US, but how will the US pay it's owe to FED when all the psychical and virtual money the USA has controlled by the FED.
The same economical interests exist across the whole world and it's not a conspiracy but a fact admitted by many professional economists. How a nation can have own interests if their money is controlled by a private corporation and a nation's laws can't provide accountability.
Now let's see an other major problem today.
What's the International Free Trade is all about? Now the Multinational corporations even gain more rights when it comes to taxing and influence each region's laws. More and more rights been taken off a nation in favor an organization which can't be controlled.

LeBrok
03-01-17, 20:31
Where would be the USA and the "West" without China and it's cheap workforce? Isn't China better off than before? It is a beneficial relationship for both parties, not for one as you are trying to suggest. Now china is second or maybe the richest country in the world. Thanks to capital investment of the West and local culture of working hard, 400 million chinese moved from poverty level to middle class. And this in one generation time!


Where would be the US without wars operation in Syria in order for Oil resources and to maintain control. Give us an example of US pumping Syrian oil or benefiting in any way off Syrian oil.


China had started it's operations in Africa just like the French did and still does in Mali. First you have to explain how China got rich, when dealing with "imperial powers" of West/US in first place, to be in position to invest their own capital in Africa.
Here is information that you are missing. First of all, for any corporation to start working in Africa there have to be set rules. For example take a mining company. The corporation and the government first need to agree on royalty payments from corporation to government, some paid regardless if company makes a profit or not, some according to the profit. Next step, the corporation needs to invest billions of dollars in mining operation and port facilities, roads, railroad and even a power plant, because local infrastructure is inadequate or doesn't exist. Keep in mind that all of this is built by local people who are not slaves but free people make real money building it. So before a company can make a dollar they need to spend billions and take a big chance that all goes well and they make a profit in the future. And we know many situations in Africa when governement has changed and corporate investment got nationalized. Not mentioning millions or billions in extra bribe payments to local officials. I'm surprised more than not that corporations are brave enough to take such big changes. On top of it, countries where these corporations are registered with head office, let's say US or France, might not see a penny in taxation dollars or a resources from mining operation in Africa. There are no regulations forcing corporations to do that, when profit and mining is abroad. From perspective of US and France, they would love to see this corporation's capital to be invested in US or France, benefiting local jobs and government finances.
Also keep in mind that during mining activities of these foreign corporations local people have jobs and make money, then they spend all this money for goods produced in China, US, France, world and support local businesses and services. The benefit of mine flows to the rest of the local society. Many corporations build schools, hospital and housing projects, benefiting locals even more.
Now tell me. How can you be against all of this?



What's the International Free Trade is all about? Now the Multinational corporations even gain more rights when it comes to taxing and influence each region's laws. Give us a real life example how corporations have set taxation level.
Do you know why USA became so powerful so quickly? Because there was a free trade (relatively free trade) between states of US. If there were rigid trade barriers, labour movement barriers, capital movement barriers in US, US would have grown in much slower pace, like Europe despite much bigger population and being first with industrial production in the world. On this example we learn that if free trade is beneficial within a country, it must be beneficial for group of countries too. Hens, there is a push of making free trade in the whole world. There are growing pains and some people are unhappy with these new changes, but in long run we will all benefit.
If you have contrarian examples how free trade slows economic growth for any country, please feel free to share with us.

Seanp
03-01-17, 21:25
Isn't China better off than before? It is a beneficial relationship for both parties, not for one as you are trying to suggest. Now china is second or maybe the richest country in the world. Thanks to capital investment of the West and local culture of working hard, 400 million chinese moved from poverty level to middle class. And this in one generation time!


A relatively small percent of people in China benefits from investments made by corporations. You will say at least these corporations offer jobs for locals and give them a worth to live, but subjectively speaking kids at age 9 working 16 hours a day may be viewed as something which brings up the local's life quality even if they get paid less than a dollar after long hours of work.
We can't be sure how multinational corporations use it's human resources and we've seen couple of examples how these corporations obey local laws and make whole regions a local mess in the environment. Surely we can see the positive aspects of GDP growth, but who will get the benefits from it? The rich is getting richer and the poor becomes poorer in a very simple view. Don't forget even corporations are considered relatively "citizens" because the corporations made by investors have the same rights as a real human being and guess if i own 1000$ in a local corporation in China and later it'll be worth more than half a million then what will the local Chinese worker gain by it's benefits?
I own my shares in that corporation because i can gain profit by paying less for a Chinese worker than i had to in anywhere else in the World.

Being second in the rank doesn't define the life quality of the majority. We can assume China will sooner or later become the dominant nation, but it's still a local not a global power compared to USA relatively wise.



for any corporation to start working in Africa there have to be set rules. For example take a mining company. The corporation and the government first need to agree on royalty payments from corporation to government, some paid regardless if company makes a profit or not, some according to the profit. Next step, the corporation needs to invest billions of dollars in mining operation and port facilities, roads, railroad and even a power plant, because local infrastructure is inadequate or doesn't exist.


What governments Africa have? Most of these governments were made by local guerrillas who doesn't even know the basic rules. Modern Western Africa objectively speaking is a big mine where the money is at and the locals don't have the technology nor the power to take advantage each of these operations.

I do agree a company has to make significant investment like you said building roads which will impact the local infrastructure in a positive way and even give jobs for locals. But i doubt you'd consider how many locals been dying because a local corporation ruin their lands for oil and mine.
Talking about if there are slaves in Africa or not from my experience and I've talked with not one African from Senegal, Mali most doesn't have a job opportunity to being with and slavery still exists in Mali for instance.
Some corporations in fact has a positive on the infrastructure and will likely impact the locals life quality but most corporations will ruin it's locals life routine as many tribes get used to live on each land how to live and those people barely need any new "gift" from the First World, unlike what the media tries to portrait by describing the white man as saviors on those lands.
We can see how savior the Iberians were when they colonized the Caribbeans and Latin America killed and raped millions of the locals and enslaved them. Yes this was back in the XV century still we don't see much of a change.
Or we can see how many murders been made just by the US military in the Middle East for self interests and provoking wars to gain money by black operations.
We don't need the evidence for CNN to makes us believe sadly it's how the modern system works and i assume you read Zbigniew Brzezinski, Al Gore, George Soros or read about the the corporations that supported the Nazi Germany by selling them oil through South America.



There are no regulations forcing corporations to do that, when profit and mining is abroad. From perspective of US and France, they would love to see this corporation's capital to be invested in US or France, benefiting local jobs and government finances.

You'd think so? Many of these so called interests from a local government are based on the corporation's value. One of the most common way let's say the IMF offers money for an African country, the nation itself doesn't hold any value (money, gold) to pay for instead they pay with their local water, miles, and human resources (sadly) and after this process we'll see how the multinational corporations appear on a land and take away most of the profits the locals gained. (I assume you believe in Santa also if you think an African nation has the power to obey a corporation which money wise has 100 times more than the whole government and it's citizens together) Most people in West Africa were able to live on their own. Their cultural heritage and life view didn't need Western education, economic standards to live their lives. Many of these people still regret education nor wanna be employees in each of these corporations.

What benefits would a local have by working 12-16 hours a day for cents which he can use to buy food at most. He's would rather be part of his community and live a lifestyle which his tribe been living for thousands of years.
A person's interest hasn't made by himself but major culture and society. As a local society changes new needs become important. Nobody would want to watch and consume if this wasn't a cultural norm in the West and i guess we'll blame third world nations why we see trash islands on the Pacific Ocean because our "way too developed" society still use plastics and other useless materials which ruin our Globe if we won't change basic customs and technology.



Do you know why USA became so powerful so quickly? Because there was a free trade (relatively free trade) between states of US.


The US today is rich and powerful because they have the right to set the rules in the Western world. Their political and military dominance allows them to control states weaker than them. What makes most of the profit in the US today? Many things from military industry to corporations which has the right to settle in any nation in the Western world. What benefits did Bolivians have when the government privatize water? The locals lost 25% of their earnings because their water was free, but the local government had the right to shot it's own citizens due the law of the local government. You're right trading is what makes a country to thrive economically but it's just one side of a coin we often see the complete opposite of these local operations and i can tell you from my own experience how the "great investments" made a whole nation lost it's factory jobs and manufacturing because the Multinational interests bought these companies and closed them after the first year and thousands of people lost their jobs.
A nation became "debt slave" because these great corporations has ruined the local systems in favor of their own interests. With money they had gained power by sponsoring politicians and parties whom set the advancing rules for their needs.

Yetos
03-01-17, 22:51
Isn't China better off than before? It is a beneficial relationship for both parties, not for one as you are trying to suggest. Now china is second or maybe the richest country in the world. Thanks to capital investment of the West and local culture of working hard, 400 million chinese moved from poverty level to middle class. And this in one generation time!

Give us an example of US pumping Syrian oil or benefiting in any way off Syrian oil.

First you have to explain how China got rich, when dealing with "imperial powers" of West/US in first place, to be in position to invest their own capital in Africa.
Here is information that you are missing. First of all, for any corporation to start working in Africa there have to be set rules. For example take a mining company. The corporation and the government first need to agree on royalty payments from corporation to government, some paid regardless if company makes a profit or not, some according to the profit. Next step, the corporation needs to invest billions of dollars in mining operation and port facilities, roads, railroad and even a power plant, because local infrastructure is inadequate or doesn't exist. Keep in mind that all of this is built by local people who are not slaves but free people make real money building it. So before a company can make a dollar they need to spend billions and take a big chance that all goes well and they make a profit in the future. And we know many situations in Africa when governement has changed and corporate investment got nationalized. Not mentioning millions or billions in extra bribe payments to local officials. I'm surprised more than not that corporations are brave enough to take such big changes. On top of it, countries where these corporations are registered with head office, let's say US or France, might not see a penny in taxation dollars or a resources from mining operation in Africa. There are no regulations forcing corporations to do that, when profit and mining is abroad. From perspective of US and France, they would love to see this corporation's capital to be invested in US or France, benefiting local jobs and government finances.
Also keep in mind that during mining activities of these foreign corporations local people have jobs and make money, then they spend all this money for goods produced in China, US, France, world and support local businesses and services. The benefit of mine flows to the rest of the local society. Many corporations build schools, hospital and housing projects, benefiting locals even more.
Now tell me. How can you be against all of this?


Give us a real life example how corporations have set taxation level.
Do you know why USA became so powerful so quickly? Because there was a free trade (relatively free trade) between states of US. If there were rigid trade barriers, labour movement barriers, capital movement barriers in US, US would have grown in much slower pace, like Europe despite much bigger population and being first with industrial production in the world. On this example we learn that if free trade is beneficial within a country, it must be beneficial for group of countries too. Hens, there is a push of making free trade in the whole world. There are growing pains and some people are unhappy with these new changes, but in long run we will all benefit.
If you have contrarian examples how free trade slows economic growth for any country, please feel free to share with us.



simply see the story of Mao, steel. mud, mosquito, small birds-sparrows, and airguns,

Taranis
06-01-17, 18:11
The term "Eurabia" is in itself a complete misnomer, because it pretends that there is a homogenity that is actually non-existent. There's a large share of Muslims living in Europe, both amongst the immigrant communities (for example, Turks, Kurds and Iranians living in Germany, or Pakistanis in the UK, etc.), as well as amongst the native population that's Muslim (Albanians and Bosnians), but not actually Arabic-speaking. Even with the immigrant communities from nominally Arabic-speaking countries (e.g. Algeria, Tunisia), if you look at 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants, you have a lot of people who are fluent in French but have little or no language skills in Arabic. Conversely you have people from the Levante (Lebanese in particular), who speak Arabic but are actually (Oriental) Christians, and with the events (esp. persecution / genocide) in Syria, you can assume that the latter number living in Europe is only going to increase.

In my opinion, the worst thing we could do is to assume that the above described ethnic groups form a single, homogenous mass.

LeBrok
06-01-17, 18:31
The term "Eurabia" is in itself a complete misnomer, because it pretends that there is a homogenity that is actually non-existent. There's a large share of Muslims living in Europe, both amongst the immigrant communities (for example, Turks, Kurds and Iranians living in Germany, or Pakistanis in the UK, etc.), as well as amongst the native population that's Muslim (Albanians and Bosnians). Even with the immigrant communities from nominally Arabic-speaking countries (e.g. Algeria, Tunisia), if you look at 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants, you have a lot of people who are fluent in French but have little or no language skills in Arabic. Conversely you have people from the Levante (Lebanese in particular), who speak Arabic but are actually (Oriental) Christians, and with the events (esp. persecution / genocide) in Syria, you can assume that the latter number living in Europe is only going to increase.

In my opinion, the worst thing we could do is to assume that the above described ethnic groups form a single, homogenous mass.
Now I remember how much I always appreciated your voice of reason. :)

LeBrok
06-01-17, 21:52
I missed this post.


A relatively small percent of people in China benefits from investments made by corporations. Since when 400 million people (the middle class) is a small percentage in China? Even the rest, the poor, yet to be a middle class, have better life than ever. Did you notice that they don't die of hunger anymore? Hunger was common during communist china.
Please get real life information for a discussion with me.


You will say at least these corporations offer jobs for locals and give them a worth to live, but subjectively speaking kids at age 9 working 16 hours a day may be viewed as something which brings up the local's life quality even if they get paid less than a dollar after long hours of work. That's simply impossible. Education in China is mandatory for kids. And kids need time to sleep too, you know. There might be some instances of such abuse, but rare and not unusual for a developing country.
Please again, get real life information.




We can't be sure how multinational corporations use it's human resources and we've seen couple of examples how these corporations obey local laws and make whole regions a local mess in the environment. Surely we can see the positive aspects of GDP growth, but who will get the benefits from it? The rich is getting richer and the poor becomes poorer in a very simple view. Don't forget even corporations are considered relatively "citizens" because the corporations made by investors have the same rights as a real human being and guess if i own 1000$ in a local corporation in China and later it'll be worth more than half a million then what will the local Chinese worker gain by it's benefits? What? Please present a proof, or a clue, that poor chinese now have less than 30 years ago. You are not living in a real world dude.



What governments Africa have? Most of these governments were made by local guerrillas who doesn't even know the basic rules. Modern Western Africa objectively speaking is a big mine where the money is at and the locals don't have the technology nor the power to take advantage each of these operations. Is Nigerian government, in a country of 150 million people, created by guerrilla bands? Don't put all into one bag. You are generalizing and demonizing everything. Your dystopian view of the world is quite disturbing.


I do agree a company has to make significant investment like you said building roads which will impact the local infrastructure in a positive way and even give jobs for locals. But i doubt you'd consider how many locals been dying because a local corporation ruin their lands for oil and mine.
Talking about if there are slaves in Africa or not from my experience and I've talked with not one African from Senegal, Mali most doesn't have a job opportunity to being with and slavery still exists in Mali for instance.
Some corporations in fact has a positive on the infrastructure and will likely impact the locals life quality but most corporations will ruin it's locals life routine as many tribes get used to live on each land how to live and those people barely need any new "gift" from the First World, unlike what the media tries to portrait by describing the white man as saviors on those lands.
We can see how savior the Iberians were when they colonized the Caribbeans and Latin America killed and raped millions of the locals and enslaved them. Yes this was back in the XV century still we don't see much of a change.
Or we can see how many murders been made just by the US military in the Middle East for self interests and provoking wars to gain money by black operations.
We don't need the evidence for CNN to makes us believe sadly it's how the modern system works and i assume you read Zbigniew Brzezinski, Al Gore, George Soros or read about the the corporations that supported the Nazi Germany by selling them oil through South America. For god sake, let's burn and bomb this sick world. Nothing is worth saving or living for!




You'd think so? Many of these so called interests from a local government are based on the corporation's value. One of the most common way let's say the IMF offers money for an African country, the nation itself doesn't hold any value (money, gold) to pay for instead they pay with their local water, miles, and human resources (sadly) and after this process we'll see how the multinational corporations appear on a land and take away most of the profits the locals gained. (I assume you believe in Santa also if you think an African nation has the power to obey a corporation which money wise has 100 times more than the whole government and it's citizens together) Most people in West Africa were able to live on their own. Their cultural heritage and life view didn't need Western education, economic standards to live their lives. Many of these people still regret education nor wanna be employees in each of these corporations. Be a Gandhi and lead us to cave life, where there is no sick civilization, polluting corporation, and everyone is happy, good and loves everyone.


What benefits would a local have by working 12-16 hours a day for cents which he can use to buy food at most. He's would rather be part of his community and live a lifestyle which his tribe been living for thousands of years.
A person's interest hasn't made by himself but major culture and society. As a local society changes new needs become important. Nobody would want to watch and consume if this wasn't a cultural norm in the West and i guess we'll blame third world nations why we see trash islands on the Pacific Ocean because our "way too developed" society still use plastics and other useless materials which ruin our Globe if we won't change basic customs and technology.
You can't even stay on the subject, can you. Your mind always wanders to the worse images you can have in your head. Do you recognize that? If I read one more of your posts I will need to go the the shrink to get therapy.



The US today is rich and powerful because they have the right to set the rules in the Western world. Their political and military dominance allows them to control states weaker than them. What makes most of the profit in the US today? Many things from military industry to corporations which has the right to settle in any nation in the Western world. What benefits did Bolivians have when the government privatize water? The locals lost 25% of their earnings because their water was free, but the local government had the right to shot it's own citizens due the law of the local government. You're right trading is what makes a country to thrive economically but it's just one side of a coin we often see the complete opposite of these local operations and i can tell you from my own experience how the "great investments" made a whole nation lost it's factory jobs and manufacturing because the Multinational interests bought these companies and closed them after the first year and thousands of people lost their jobs.
A nation became "debt slave" because these great corporations has ruined the local systems in favor of their own interests. With money they had gained power by sponsoring politicians and parties whom set the advancing rules for their needs.It is useless to give you real life examples or economic explanations, as you don't really register what I say, or are able to argue points of discussion. Once again, you brain wandered away to dystopian and sick visions of the world in your head. How can you function with such visions? Your thoughts are extremely dark.

Boreas
07-01-17, 06:03
Give us an example of US pumping Syrian oil or benefiting in any way off Syrian oil.



Are you waiting a clear decleration from White House?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkey-refines-and-sells-stolen-syrian-and-iraqi-oil-for-isis/5492393

Mowaffak al Rubaie is a former Iraqi Governing Council member

Al Rubaie stressed “no shadow of a doubt” about Turkey’s full knowledge and involvement in what’s ongoing. Responsibility goes right to the top. Reports suggest that Erdogan’s son, Bilal, is actively engaged in illegal smuggling, selling and profiting from stolen Syrian and Iraqi oil, facilitated by Turkey’s security apparatus and intelligence.

Erdogan’s regime treats wounded ISIS terrorists in Turkish hospitals in border areas and Istanbul. Daesh recruits are trained in Turkey by CIA operatives and US special forces. They move freely cross-border to and from Syria and Iraq.

Al Rubaie said “no terrorist organization…can stand alone without a neighboring country helping it.” Complicit with Washington, Turkey is directly involved along with other NATO countries, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Jordan and Israel.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------http://arabnyheter.info/sv/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/IS-smuggles-oil.jpg
http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-is-the-main-purchaser-of-isis-oil/5493738


Al-Qaide was created by US
Hamas was created by Israel
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/?utm_term=.2650362f5eb2

Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association.


Yassin's Mujama would become Hamas, which, it can be argued, was Israel's Taliban: an Islamist group whose antecedents had been laid down by the West in a battle against a leftist enemy.

Let's think Who create ISIS ?

LeBrok
08-01-17, 23:08
Are you waiting a clear decleration from White House?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkey-refines-and-sells-stolen-syrian-and-iraqi-oil-for-isis/5492393

Mowaffak al Rubaie is a former Iraqi Governing Council member

Al Rubaie stressed “no shadow of a doubt” about Turkey’s full knowledge and involvement in what’s ongoing. Responsibility goes right to the top. Reports suggest that Erdogan’s son, Bilal, is actively engaged in illegal smuggling, selling and profiting from stolen Syrian and Iraqi oil, facilitated by Turkey’s security apparatus and intelligence.

Erdogan’s regime treats wounded ISIS terrorists in Turkish hospitals in border areas and Istanbul. Daesh recruits are trained in Turkey by CIA operatives and US special forces. They move freely cross-border to and from Syria and Iraq.

Al Rubaie said “no terrorist organization…can stand alone without a neighboring country helping it.” Complicit with Washington, Turkey is directly involved along with other NATO countries, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Jordan and Israel.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-is-the-main-purchaser-of-isis-oil/5493738

You really believe in this garbage? I don't like Erdogan either but to claim that he knowingly helps IS is a bit too much for me. IS is helped but by sympathetic Turks but not by Erdogan. He controls a lot but even he was surprised by a coup.


Al-Qaide was created by US
Hamas was created by Israel
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/?utm_term=.2650362f5eb2Lol, please tell me you know the difference, between US created Al-Qaide, and US used to help Al-Qaide or Bin Laden fight Russians. And regardless of the past, you can't claim that in recent past and now Al-Qaeda or Hamas is controlled by US and Israel, can you?



Yassin's Mujama would become Hamas, which, it can be argued, was Israel's Taliban: an Islamist group whose antecedents had been laid down by the West in a battle against a leftist enemy. Let's think Who create ISIS ?By law of six degrees of separation, you created IS. Please aquainte yourself with this law and understand that is wrong to argument this way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation

In the map you posted, we read that IS pumps oil off Conoco oilfields. Again, please tell me that you understand that this fields belong fully to IS now, and no personnel of Conoco is involved in this operation. What creators of this map meant, and you missed, is that these oilfields were developed and operated by Conoco before the war. Now IS "nationalized" these fields and it belongs fully to IS and is operated by IS. Generally I agree with this map, it makes sense, it just need to be read the right way, without confirmation bias.

bicicleur
09-01-17, 00:13
You really believe in this garbage? I don't like Erdogan either but to claim that he knowingly helps IS is a bit too much for me. IS is helped but by sympathetic Turks but not by Erdogan. He controls a lot but even he was surprised by a coup.

Till a year ago Erdogan did support ISIS. He helped them smuggle oil out of Irak and Syria and his friends even made a profit on that.
That is why he shot that Russian fighter plane.
He tought ISIS would be his allie to fight the Kurds.

Now he understands that he can't trust ISIS and that he would get isolated internationaly if he supported ISIS to openly.
He even came to terms with Putin again.

There is no straight line in what Erdogan is doing.
Always calculating.

Seanp
09-01-17, 01:18
There's no need to US involvement in the Near East when there you have an ISIS which does the "bad job" and prevent US and European citizens in a war which has no point to be involved. I don't think there's a direct support by US but the way this organization had the power to maintain it's power so long brings a lot questions alone.
What's the purpose of this supposed "terrorist organization" and what would motive it's actions towards Syria and other Syrian sympathized states (Iran, Russia) but not Israel or USA?

The Near East was always been the center of conflicts and likely will be for a long time. Generalizing wise the USA has been supporting terrorist organizations to prevent "enemy nations" to reach more power and force them to remain as local powers or even make a total chaos like we have seen it in Libya and Afghanistan.

What is clear that most ISIS actions support US and Israeli needs, and logically vise of something helps me against my enemy why wouldn't i give benefits to a group which support my interest?

How come Gaddhafi, Saddam Hussein were supported members by the US and Western states, but by short period of time these states and it's leadership turn out to be completely terrorist and anti democratic out of nowhere.

We know that the US investigation and war in Iraq was based on a false statements and propaganda which claimed that Iraq has nuclear weapons. Did they find anything? No

We've seen so many false flag attacks, as we know history is repeating itself.

LeBrok
09-01-17, 07:22
Till a year ago Erdogan did support ISIS. He helped them smuggle oil out of Irak and Syria and his friends even made a profit on that.
That is why he shot that Russian fighter plane.
He tought ISIS would be his allie to fight the Kurds.

Now he understands that he can't trust ISIS and that he would get isolated internationaly if he supported ISIS to openly.
He even came to terms with Putin again.

There is no straight line in what Erdogan is doing.
Always calculating.Yes, he definitely played a double game, and surely IS fighting Kurds was sort of his friends in this endeavor. Having said that it is not clear if Erdogan was involved in smuggling IS oil. As we know Turkish very long boarder is very porous and some corrupt local officials could have done it instead.

bicicleur
09-01-17, 10:40
Yes, he definitely played a double game, and surely IS fighting Kurds was sort of his friends in this endeavor. Having said that it is not clear if Erdogan was involved in smuggling IS oil. As we know Turkish very long boarder is very porous and some corrupt local officials could have done it instead.

he didn't smuggle himself but I can't imagine it happening without him closing an eye to it
it was not just smuggling some small parcels, but lots of full tanker trucks

the day after the Russian figther plane was shot the Russians retaliated by bombarding in the same area were the plane had been shot
Turkmen showed some unclear videos claiming 'their villages were bombarded'
the Russians then showed some other videos with tanker trucks for oil transport on a big parking lot bombed and completely burned
these Turkmen are not Syrian, they have nothing to do in Syria, they were infiltrants and friends of Erdogan

Goga
09-01-17, 10:51
Yes, he definitely played a double game, and surely IS fighting Kurds was sort of his friends in this endeavor. Having said that it is not clear if Erdogan was involved in smuggling IS oil. As we know Turkish very long boarder is very porous and some corrupt local officials could have done it instead.Turkey's minister of energy is his son-in-law.


"Hacked emails: Erdogan's son-in-law imported ISIS oil

Contrary to his denials, the son-in-law of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan is tied to the company accused of importing oil from ISIS, according to an archive of nearly 58,000 emails released by WikiLeaks. (https://wikileaks.org/berats-box/article)

Berat Albayrak, who is Turkey’s minister of energy, has insisted he has had no involvement in Powertrans, the company implicated in ISIS oil imports to Turkey.

The archive, however, shows Albayrak wielded authority in Powertrans beginning in 2012, which was when the government gave the company the right to transport oil."

etc.

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2016/12/hacked-emails-erdogans-son-in-law-imported-isis-oil/#h909bZUIPOlS0ixS.99
http://www.wnd.com/2016/12/hacked-emails-erdogans-son-in-law-imported-isis-oil/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4006568/WikiLeaks-reveals-57-000-emails-son-law-President-Erdogan-proving-connection-ISIS-operation-smuggling-oil-Turkey.html
https://wikileaks.org/berats-box/article


Erdogan is still DAESH / ISIS. That's why Erdogan and Turkey will be held accountable for a genocide committed on Ezdi Kurds on August 3 2014. When there will be a tribunal in the Hague, Erdogan together with Barzani will be brought to justice. Either this or both are going to be killed. Think of Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Bin Laden, corrupt dictators in South America and Central Asia. When they are not needed anymore they are got exterminated/retired. Same will happen to Erdogan and Barzani. Their crimes will never be unpunished.

Of course the US (and their intel) knows every singel action Erdogan and Barzani did in the Middle East. It is not really a top secret, lol.

bicicleur
09-01-17, 12:36
Erdogan is still DAESH / ISIS. That's why Erdogan and Turkey will be held accountable for a genocide committed on Ezdi Kurds on August 3 2014. When there will be a tribunal in the Hague, Erdogan together with Barzani will be brought to justice. Either this or both are going to be killed. Think of Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Bin Laden, corrupt dictators in South America and Central Asia. When they are not needed anymore they are got exterminated/retired. Same will happen to Erdogan and Barzani. Their crimes will never be unpunished.

Of course the US (and their intel) knows every singel action Erdogan and Barzani did in the Middle East. It is not really a top secret, lol.

I hope so, but since the failure of 'Arabic Spring' the west (i.e. America because Europe isn't able to play any role) has lost its grip on the events.
Symptomatic is the fact that hypocrit Angela Merkel had to make a pact with Erdogan to stop the refugee flood.

Boreas
09-01-17, 14:33
You really believe in this garbage?

Let me show you some garbage (Nayirah)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/30/Nayirah_%28testimony%29.jpg

It is a good example of value of society on the rulers eyes.

bicicleur
09-01-17, 15:01
Let me show you some garbage (Nayirah)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/30/Nayirah_%28testimony%29.jpg

It is a good example of value of society on the rulers eyes.

everybody talks about fake news as it was something new, going hand in hand with social media

fake news exists already as long as history and also in modern times in 'transparent societies'

Seanp
09-01-17, 15:09
everybody talks about fake news as it was something new, going hand in hand with social media

fake news exists already as long as history and also in modern times in 'transparent societies'

Would you consider the possibility of 9/11, the reason of Iraq war, Afghanistan as fake in order to change the masses morality for sending thousands to warfare?

Do people change by time? The morality of modern United States leaders have changed compared to the ones who made the decision to nuke Hirosoma and Nagasaki?

What will historians write about the intentions of wars in the Near East, maybe this will be taught as some sort of "yes they were bad guys but we've morally improved and live in a society which is ruled by purely democratic interests"

Yetos
09-01-17, 15:20
I hope so, but since the failure of 'Arabic Spring' the west (i.e. America because Europe isn't able to play any role) has lost its grip on the events.
Symptomatic is the fact that hypocrit Angela Merkel had to make a pact with Erdogan to stop the refugee flood.

itknownfrom90's
it is known from 90's
the Arizona vision,

Europe will split to 2, either Eurozones, either EU,
then Europe will play important role,

Sile
09-01-17, 19:37
I hope so, but since the failure of 'Arabic Spring' the west (i.e. America because Europe isn't able to play any role) has lost its grip on the events.
Symptomatic is the fact that hypocrit Angela Merkel had to make a pact with Erdogan to stop the refugee flood.

The support of "arab-spring" is the biggest blunder the west has made since WW2 .................its genocide policy of indigenous people in every nation it has arisen in is proof of this

Boreas
09-01-17, 22:50
everybody talks about fake news as it was something new, going hand in hand with social media

fake news exists already as long as history and also in modern times in 'transparent societies'

This is not an ordinary fake news. Not a UFO photoshop picture or etc.

LeBrok
09-01-17, 22:58
This is not an ordinary fake news. Not a UFO photoshop picture or etc. I grew up in communist Poland where most of news were fake, half truths and propaganda. I developed a super sense for these. And of course naturally talented observer. ;)

Yetos
10-01-17, 00:03
I grew up in communist Poland where most of news were fake, half truths and propaganda. I developed a super sense for these. And of course naturally talented observer. ;)


that is interesting!!! amazing!!!!

do you profit from your gift?
I am sure that someone with this gift is talented enough to earn money,
have try to enter stock-exchange?
many parrots and fake news there.


ok I am sarcastic, I ask for your understanding, and not misunderstanding,

LeBrok
10-01-17, 03:41
that is interesting!!! amazing!!!!

do you profit from your gift?
I am sure that someone with this gift is talented enough to earn money,
have try to enter stock-exchange?
many parrots and fake news there.


ok I am sarcastic, I ask for your understanding, and not misunderstanding,I'm always praising Canada, so you can imagine things are dandy. :)

gyms
10-01-17, 14:38
I grew up in communist Poland where most of news were fake, half truths and propaganda. I developed a super sense for these. And of course naturally talented observer. ;)

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/09/30/world/middleeast/john-kerry-syria-audio.html?_r=1

Breaking: Leaked audio of John Kerry confirming Obama wanted ISIS to grow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSFutDtoyk8&feature=youtu.be

LeBrok
10-01-17, 17:51
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/09/30/world/middleeast/john-kerry-syria-audio.html?_r=1

Breaking: Leaked audio of John Kerry confirming Obama wanted ISIS to grow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSFutDtoyk8&feature=youtu.beYou are the first one to believe in fake news, and often you misconstrude what news really says. You are a magnet for Russian, anti democrat and anti liberal, propaganda.

Do you know what news I really wanted to believe? The one when Trumps says that Republicans are gullible to believe in his lies to elect him a president. Something he supposedly said 20 years ago or so. Remember this one? I really wanted this one to be true. I believed in it for a minute but there was something fishy about this. My sixth sense kicked in and I recognized a fake news.

Seanp
10-01-17, 18:32
You are the first one to believe in fake news, and often you misconstrude what news really says. You are a magnet for Russian, anti democrat and anti liberal, propaganda.

Do you know what news I really wanted to believe? The one when Trumps says that Republicans are gullible to believe in his lies to elect him a president. Something he supposedly said 20 years ago or so. Remember this one? I really wanted this one to be true. I believed in it for a minute but there was something fishy about this. My sixth sense kicked in and I recognized a fake news.

Can you inform us more about your 6th senses? It's really interesting and has much to do with the topic.

IronSide
16-01-17, 19:40
No I hope Europe doesn't become islamicized. Refugees are a humanitarian problem, once the war is over the refugees should head back home.

Europe's culture of freedom and openness, democracy and human rights, equality of gender and of race, should be preserved at all costs. Secularism should not give way to sharia law.

There are two types of immigrants : 1- Humanitarian: because of war and instability, these should be helped and may stay until the war is over and then return, otherwise they are classified as
2- non-Humanitarian : immigrating for the sake of it, willing to stay and live in the target country. We don't care about your race or religion however you must accept and assimilate to our culture, you will speak our language, accept our laws, know our history, appreciate our freedom, and you must be able to sustain yourself with a lawful source of income. Otherwise you are rejected.

Cities should not have muslim areas that aspire to be ruled by sharia law ??? I dont understand why these people immigrate to Europe, they should come here to Saudi Arabia if they desperately want Sharia law, we have plenty of it here i assure them.

Dinarid
31-01-17, 04:16
Are you waiting a clear decleration from White House?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkey-refines-and-sells-stolen-syrian-and-iraqi-oil-for-isis/5492393

Mowaffak al Rubaie is a former Iraqi Governing Council member

Al Rubaie stressed “no shadow of a doubt” about Turkey’s full knowledge and involvement in what’s ongoing. Responsibility goes right to the top. Reports suggest that Erdogan’s son, Bilal, is actively engaged in illegal smuggling, selling and profiting from stolen Syrian and Iraqi oil, facilitated by Turkey’s security apparatus and intelligence.

Erdogan’s regime treats wounded ISIS terrorists in Turkish hospitals in border areas and Istanbul. Daesh recruits are trained in Turkey by CIA operatives and US special forces. They move freely cross-border to and from Syria and Iraq.

Al Rubaie said “no terrorist organization…can stand alone without a neighboring country helping it.” Complicit with Washington, Turkey is directly involved along with other NATO countries, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Jordan and Israel.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------http://arabnyheter.info/sv/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/IS-smuggles-oil.jpg
http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-is-the-main-purchaser-of-isis-oil/5493738


Al-Qaide was created by US
Hamas was created by Israel
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/?utm_term=.2650362f5eb2

Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association.


Yassin's Mujama would become Hamas, which, it can be argued, was Israel's Taliban: an Islamist group whose antecedents had been laid down by the West in a battle against a leftist enemy.

Let's think Who create ISIS ?
It's funny to see you people blame Israel for everything. Israel created Hamas? That's a new one LOL

Boreas
31-01-17, 11:24
It's funny to see you people blame Israel for everything. Israel created Hamas? That's a new one LOL

Let's talk when you become adult and start to talk with sources, references etc.

MOESAN
31-01-17, 14:57
Europe does not need immigration and in the future it will need even less.
And if so, only people with special skills should be allowed.
What enters Europe today are mostly unskilled people, 15 - 20 % is even completley illiterate.
Free immigration is utopia, it exists nowhere in the world and it would not be sustainable.
Belgium is 30.500 km² with 11 million inhabitants.
We would do fine with 7-8 million.
The same applies to the whole of northwest Europe.

the PROBLEM with selected immigration (skilled people) is that it goes on "strengthening" weakness of world pops stayed back and exagerating inequality! We have to keep this in mind -

Dinarid
11-02-17, 17:07
Let's talk when you become adult and start to talk with sources, references etc.
I don't respond to made-up conspiracy garbage meant to exonerate Muslims from every possible wrong. All of your sources are conspiracy theorists, and anything credible you will deny as disinformation. You know that your own country aids Hamas in their terror activities just as well as I do. Sorry, the truth hurts.

Boreas
11-02-17, 22:16
I don't respond to made-up conspiracy garbage meant to exonerate Muslims from every possible wrong. All of your sources are conspiracy theorists, and anything credible you will deny as disinformation. You know that your own country aids Hamas in their terror activities just as well as I do. Sorry, the truth hurts.

I should be the one who doesn't give a respond against who can't give source and accuse the other side with conspiracy. Sorry, to give you a value and try to talk.

John Doe
11-02-17, 23:49
Are you waiting a clear decleration from White House?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/turkey-refines-and-sells-stolen-syrian-and-iraqi-oil-for-isis/5492393

Mowaffak al Rubaie is a former Iraqi Governing Council member

Al Rubaie stressed “no shadow of a doubt” about Turkey’s full knowledge and involvement in what’s ongoing. Responsibility goes right to the top. Reports suggest that Erdogan’s son, Bilal, is actively engaged in illegal smuggling, selling and profiting from stolen Syrian and Iraqi oil, facilitated by Turkey’s security apparatus and intelligence.

Erdogan’s regime treats wounded ISIS terrorists in Turkish hospitals in border areas and Istanbul. Daesh recruits are trained in Turkey by CIA operatives and US special forces. They move freely cross-border to and from Syria and Iraq.

Al Rubaie said “no terrorist organization…can stand alone without a neighboring country helping it.” Complicit with Washington, Turkey is directly involved along with other NATO countries, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Jordan and Israel.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------http://arabnyheter.info/sv/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/IS-smuggles-oil.jpg
http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-is-the-main-purchaser-of-isis-oil/5493738


Al-Qaide was created by US
Hamas was created by Israel
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/?utm_term=.2650362f5eb2

Israel's military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association.


Yassin's Mujama would become Hamas, which, it can be argued, was Israel's Taliban: an Islamist group whose antecedents had been laid down by the West in a battle against a leftist enemy.

Let's think Who create ISIS ?





Had they known what Sheikh Yassin's organisation would become later on in the 1st Intifada, I assure you they wouldn't have lent it the support that they initially did. And BTW, the only reason they bothered to lend it any support was because the Israeli intelligence assumed that if they support a genuine "peace loving" charity organisation, it would take away support from the Secular PLO which at the time was still supporting terrorism. Obviously Israel was wrong, but how was it to know? And here I'll be honest with you, how would the US know that supporting the Mujahideen lead to where it lead? They couldn't have known either.

Angela
11-02-17, 23:57
Had they known what Sheikh Yassin's organisation would become later on in the 1st Intifada, I assure you they wouldn't have lent it the support that they initially did. And BTW, the only reason they bothered to lend it any support was because the Israeli intelligence assumed that if they support a genuine "peace loving" charity organisation, it would take away support from the Secular PLO which at the time was still supporting terrorism. Obviously Israel was wrong, but how was it to know? And here I'll be honest with you, how would the US know that supporting the Mujahideen lead to where it lead? They couldn't have known either.

Exactly so. People who desperately turn to conspiracy theories to explain away unpleasant facts always seem to assume that their perceived enemies are all knowing, all powerful agents able to control all.

My experience of human beings in action, in government as in every other sphere, is that people make so many wrong assumptions, so many wrong decisions, are so incompetent, or lazy or whatever that it's a miracle the garbage gets picked up on time. If it can go wrong, it will, is one of the those rules I believe in. Another one is that no plan is ever perfectly executed. Don't expect it.

The law of unintended consequences is alive and well.

Seanp
12-02-17, 12:58
Had they known what Sheikh Yassin's organisation would become later on in the 1st Intifada, I assure you they wouldn't have lent it the support that they initially did. And BTW, the only reason they bothered to lend it any support was because the Israeli intelligence assumed that if they support a genuine "peace loving" charity organisation, it would take away support from the Secular PLO which at the time was still supporting terrorism. Obviously Israel was wrong, but how was it to know? And here I'll be honest with you, how would the US know that supporting the Mujahideen lead to where it lead? They couldn't have known either.

There's no need to assume anything. Since Israel as a state exist in the Middle East terrorism and regional atrocities became part of the everyday living. There couldn't be wars in the Middle East if the American Jewish and Zionist lobby didn't support it and there's a considerable material i can link to prove it if it's still something to prove other than obvious fact.
Only Israel has more nuclear weapons than the whole Middle East region (if those regions have any). Now people can say it's state was built on the purpose to establish peaceful living for it's citizens, especially those who escaped from Nazi Germany while in reality over 80% of Jews living in Israel have no connection to Holocaust or whatsoever.
The most powerful Jews consider US as their homeland and refer themselves as global citizens because they have no place nor identity to belong and these people are who support terrorist organizations by their simple innocent "acts".

If anything it's not consequences by merely mistakes that had lead to conflict it had a purpose on things to happen in a certain way. The leaders of Israel are not good or bad as human beings they can be called as evil.

Any nations in the world would feel better if Israel as a state wouldn't be exist as it had no right to take away locals freedom of living in the region as they did it to millions of native inhabitants of the region of Palestine and the surrounding areas.

Dinarid
12-02-17, 17:04
I should be the one who doesn't give a respond against who can't give source and accuse the other side with conspiracy. Sorry, to give you a value and try to talk.
LOL just another desperate Muslim blaming Israel and America for your own terrorism.

Dinarid
20-02-17, 19:27
There's no need to assume anything. Since Israel as a state exist in the Middle East terrorism and regional atrocities became part of the everyday living. There couldn't be wars in the Middle East if the American Jewish and Zionist lobby didn't support it and there's a considerable material i can link to prove it if it's still something to prove other than obvious fact.
Only Israel has more nuclear weapons than the whole Middle East region (if those regions have any). Now people can say it's state was built on the purpose to establish peaceful living for it's citizens, especially those who escaped from Nazi Germany while in reality over 80% of Jews living in Israel have no connection to Holocaust or whatsoever.
The most powerful Jews consider US as their homeland and refer themselves as global citizens because they have no place nor identity to belong and these people are who support terrorist organizations by their simple innocent "acts".

If anything it's not consequences by merely mistakes that had lead to conflict it had a purpose on things to happen in a certain way. The leaders of Israel are not good or bad as human beings they can be called as evil.

Any nations in the world would feel better if Israel as a state wouldn't be exist as it had no right to take away locals freedom of living in the region as they did it to millions of native inhabitants of the region of Palestine and the surrounding areas.

Thanks for that, I had a good laugh. Yes, Jews are responsible for all bloodshed in the Middle East. Of course your friends practicing the Religion of Peace never do anything wrong. But I'm not too surprised a Hungarian thinks this way to be honest.