L-21, RZ253 with paternal ancestry from Germany

Hello

I have a (mostly) documented family tree going back to Southwestern Germany in the state of Baden-Württemberg. My oldest direct paternal ancestor was born there in 1621.

No Irish, English, Scottish, or Iberian input on my paternal line from 1621 until now.

I have the confirmed R1b>L-21>RZ253 YDNA haplogroup. My closest matches are indeed all Irish. No close German matches whatsoever.

What gives? Does this make sense? What kind of prevalence does L-21 have among Germans? Did L-21 originate in the British Isles or on the continent? Is RZ253 an Irish sub-clade?

Benjamin Birely said:

Hello

I have a (mostly) documented family tree going back to Southwestern Germany in the state of Baden-Württemberg. My oldest paternal ancestor was born there in 1621.

No Irish, English, Spanish or Portuguese input on my paternal line from 1621 until now.

I have the confirmed R1b>L-21>RZ253 YDNA haplogroup. My closest matches are indeed Irish. No close German matches whatsoever.

What gives? Does this make sense?

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Original surname was Bauerlein (Beyerle).

L21 definitely originated on the Continent it just reaches a maximum in Ireland. I think the reason why you possibly have so many matches with Irish is that the majority of participants in dna databases are of British Isles ancestry especially with FTDNA. L21 is high in Northern France so no reason why there wouldn't be L21 in Germany. There is also L21 in Scandinavia. Also when you said you match many Irish is this at 12, 25 markers? You would really need 67 markers to really show a relationship. A 12 marker match doesn't really mean anything.

This is from FTDNA "Z253 was initially discovered in two anonymous participants of the 1000 Genomes Project, namely samples HG01136 (Colombian) and NA19717 (Mexican-American). Z253 has since been found in FTDNA samples with ancestry from Denmark, England, France, Germany, Ireland, Norway, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and Wales."

If more people from the Continent tested it would give a much more clearer picture.

Most Irish are also under DF21 so another reason why Z253 wouldn't be of Irish origin. Most Irish are of branches further down the L21 tree and also the opposite side of the tree from Z253.

Unfortunately I can't link any images as I haven't posted enough but if you look at where Z253 is placed on the tree it would be beneficial for you.

Elizabeth60 said:

Most Irish are also under DF21 so another reason why Z253 wouldn't be of Irish origin. Most Irish are of branches further down the L21 tree and also the opposite side of the tree from Z253.

Unfortunately I can't link any images as I haven't posted enough but if you look at where Z253 is placed on the tree it would be beneficial for you.

Click to expand...

Yes, this makes sense. I tested negative for DF21 and also negative for DF49>M222.

DF49 is before M222 but yes all M222 would be DF49. I really think it would be great if more Continental Europeans tested as this would help in filling out the gaps and also be more beneficial for where L21 originated. From what I've read most people think it originated in the Rhine river systems which makes sense.

Elizabeth60 said:

DF49 is before M222 but yes all M222 would be DF49. I really think it would be great if more Continental Europeans tested as this would help in filling out the gaps and also be more beneficial for where L21 originated. From what I've read most people think it originated in the Rhine river systems which makes sense.

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Are there theories on to WHEN L-21 originated?

Makes perfect sense! Z253 appears to have originated in the Rhine region, and spread from there with the late Neolithic/early Bronze Age Bell Beaker Culture. I belong to a subclade of Z253: Z2185. My direct male line traces back from 18th century North Carolina to Northern Ireland to the Scottish Lowlands. My direct male ancestor most likely came to the British Isles from the Rhine region some 2000 years before Christ. Or perhaps from Denmark during the Viking Age. Either way, we share common genetic and geographic heritage that dates back some 4000 years before present.

Sounds similar to mine so if they travelled from the Rhine to the lowlands what tribe would they have been?