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berun
12-01-17, 16:55
Just i red the paper "Mapping Post-Glacial expansions: The Peopling of Southwest Asia" (here (http://www.nature.com/articles/srep40338)), and the interesting point is:


Due to the phylogenetic relationship between J1 and J2 markers, the TMRCAs for these are identical. The J1 and J2 split shows deepest time in the Caucasus, Syria and Turkey at 8.9 ka and 8.4 ka, respectively.


Our study has identified the Caucasus refugium as the likely source for the J1 and J2 haplogroups that now dominate Southwest Asia, and previously appeared to mark the Neolithic Revolution’s expansion into Europe. Yet, haplogroups J1 and J2 are distinctly lacking in the earlier Yamnaya samples.

they include var and freq maps to sure their claims.

The article fails to comment that there are ancient J's that confirm their claims: Satsurbila and Kotias in paleolithic Georgia (J1 and J2a), and Huto Cave in the Zagros (J2a).

The interesting case is that even if the authors complain about the apparent lack of J's in Yamnayans, there was a Mesolithic J1 in Karelia dated to about 5250 BC. As this man has now clear origins in the Caucasus it's possible to ask:

his clade arrived to Karelia from the North Caucasus after the rise of temperatures? or his clade arrived there with a Neolithic expansion from the Fertile Crescent / Caucasus that went northwards?

in whichever case as this man was J1 he was carrying surely CHG autosomals, and as Yamnayans were half CHG half EHG, there are a lot of possible similar admixtures to find out in the path to the northernmost European territory. So then, as it's stated that the (eastern) Yamnayans can't be the source for the admixture in the Corded Ware, we can find out the source pop in North Russia...?

Fire Haired14
13-01-17, 14:17
The Mesolithic Karelian man with J1 doesn't have confirmed CHG ancestry. If he did have some he had little.

berun
13-01-17, 15:53
To me it's not a matter if such J man had much or less CHG admixture, as for Caucasian hunthers-gaterers Karelia was far from their homeland and to reach such land a lot of admixtures with "Russian" locals would have lowered the Caucasian component before; if instead the region was reached by Caucasian agriculturalists the people there would be scarce (land not suitable for farming neither for herding, only for good for pionner trappists).

But the case is that if Caucasians reached the northermost territory of Europe by the VI millennium, and if Caucasians left a Caucasian DNA signature in their path, and other Russian EHG samples date from such time, and if such EHG really keept a Caucasian admixture (but they are taken as pure populations...), many admixture analisys involving EHG will deliver Yamnayan-like pops, I'm wrong?

MOESAN
13-01-17, 18:44
All that depends on how are analysed ancient pops: as pure reference or admixed - allways same question! Labellings - seemingly a lot of scientists analysed Yamanya pop as a mix between kind of CHG and EHG - on physical aspect they were roughly said "halfway" between South-Caucasus, Mesolithic HGs with a taste of Northern Neolitic pops not reductible to first both, what as a whole don't contradict the DNA results -
GENETIKER has his own criteria and its Wes-Asi

MOESAN
13-01-17, 18:48
sorry: his 'westasian' part is very low in his Pit Grave (about 12-15%?) and his dark-blue one (what's?) I take for EHGlike is very high. But he is far from scientists works. What is sure is that the total auDNA from Caucasus was and is still very very low around the Baltic, as are rare enough the Y-J...

berun
13-01-17, 21:52
Looking at Genetiker admixtures there are not Caucasian traces among HG Karelains... but instead there is a EHG trace (20%) in Satsurblia... maybe it is taking a share of the EHG genes as EHG instead to do the contrary?

For the actual scarcity of J and Caucasian DNA in the Baltics, it could be "blamed" the Siberian waves of R1a and N.

MarkoZ
13-01-17, 23:34
As per Lazaridis, the Karelians do have ancestry from something that peaks in Neolithic Iran. The affinity can be seen as early as Hotu III. Take a look at figures 1 & 4:

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/06/16/059311.full.pdf

Tomenable
14-01-17, 12:19
Marko, modern Karelians =/= Mesolithic Karelians.

================================

Below is my recent map of the spread of PIE and of R1a and R1b haplogroups, based on archaeology and on well over 100 ancient DNA samples. I think that PIE expanded into Europe along two routes, a southern route dominated by R1b-P312 with R1b-Z2103, and a northern one dominated by R1a-M417. As for R1b-U106, it could as well go along the northern route together with R1a-M417, considering that U106 has not been found in any Bell Beaker remains thus far. The oldest known U106 is RISE98 dated to 2275-2032 BC from Lilla Beddinge in Southern Sweden (Scania), and that burial was located in Corded Ware cultural zone. Autosomally, RISE98 was more similar to other Corded Ware samples (the ones with R1a), than to any Bell Beaker sample:

https://media.giphy.com/media/JA4zHDeZ1Jib6/giphy.gif

MOESAN
14-01-17, 13:45
Looking at Genetiker admixtures there are not Caucasian traces among HG Karelains... but instead there is a EHG trace (20%) in Satsurblia... maybe it is taking a share of the EHG genes as EHG instead to do the contrary?

For the actual scarcity of J and Caucasian DNA in the Baltics, it could be "blamed" the Siberian waves of R1a and N.

if we take 20% EHG in Satsurbia (I doubt it 's so high) so we can have only 20x15/100 = 3% more of "Caucasus" in play, no more, still according to Genetiker! As long we tely on him, it doesn't change things too dramatically.

MOESAN
14-01-17, 13:55
Marko, modern Karelians =/= Mesolithic Karelians.

================================

Below is my recent map of the spread of PIE and of R1a and R1b haplogroups, based on archaeology and on well over 100 ancient DNA samples. I think that PIE expanded into Europe along two routes, a southern route dominated by R1b-P312 with R1b-Z2103, and a northern one dominated by R1a-M417. As for R1b-U106, it could as well go along the northern route together with R1a-M417, considering that U106 has not been found in any Bell Beaker remains thus far. The oldest known U106 is RISE98 dated to 2275-2032 BC from Lilla Beddinge in Southern Sweden (Scania), and that burial was located in Corded Ware cultural zone. Autosomally, RISE98 was more similar to other Corded Ware samples (the ones with R1a), than to any Bell Beaker sample:

https://media.giphy.com/media/JA4zHDeZ1Jib6/giphy.gif

I remember Eurogenes stated the Y-R-U106 RISE98 was shifted a bit more western ('northsea'?) than the Y-R1a man found there, who was more 'eastern' or 'finnish' or something like that... I cannot find his post again.

Tomenable
14-01-17, 15:47
MOESAN,

Actually RISE98 had just as much of "North Sea" as R1a samples.

Here are Eurogenes K15 results of ancient Scandinavian samples:

RISE61 = 2650-2300 BC, Corded Ware, R1a-Z284+
RISE94 = 2621-2472 BC, Corded Ware, R1a-Z645+
RISE71 = 2196-2023 BC, Corded Ware
RISE97 = 2025-1885 BC, Corded Ware
RISE98 = 2275-2032 BC, Corded Ware, R1b-U106+
RISE276 = 794-547 BC, Nordic Bronze Age, R1b
RISE174 = 427-611 AD, Iron Age Sweden




North Sea
Atlantic
Baltic
Eastern Euro
West Med
West Asian
South Asian
Sub-Saharan
Amerind
Oceanian
Siberian
East Med
NE African
Red Sea
SE Asian


RISE94
38,9
30,74
9,3
11,15
0,23
9,68
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0


RISE61
41,9
22,42
13,76
7,53
12,24
0,5
0
1,64
0
0
0
0
0
0
0


RISE71
50,33
23,06
8,27
2,59
0
4,51
0
0,48
0
0
0
0
0
0
0


RISE97
37
39,07
10,85
5,57
7,51
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0


RISE98
39,93
18,64
15,82
16,41
7,64
0
1,07
0,36
0
0,12
0
0
0
0
0


RISE174
40,24
31,48
16,78
10,88
0,28
0
0
0
0,34
0
0
0
0
0
0


RISE276
35,1
32,86
19,57
2,87
7,32
0,08
0
2,2
0
0
0
0
0
0
0



And these samples have not been uploaded to GEDmatch:

RISE42 = 2191-1972 BC, Corded Ware, R1a
RISE179 = 2010-1776 BC, Corded Ware, I1
RISE47 = 1499-1324 BC, Nordic BA, R1b(xP312)
RISE207 = 1493-1302 BC, Nordic BA, I1
RISE210 = 1432-1292 BC, Nordic BA, I1
RISE175 = 1395-1132 BC, Nordic BA, I1

Would be nice to upload them and see their results as well.

Tomenable
14-01-17, 15:56
As you can see RISE98 had more of "Eastern Euro" admixture than Scandinavian R1a samples.

He had 16,41% of "Eastern Euro" - compared to 11,15% and 7,53% for two samples with R1a.

He had about as much of "North Sea" and he had actually much less of "Atlantic" than R1a men.


was shifted a bit more western ('northsea'?)

"North Sea" does not really shift you west, at least not during the Bronze Age (IIRC, Sintashta, Potapovka, Srubnaya, etc. samples from Russia also scored a lot of "North Sea"). "Atlantic" is what shifts you west. "North Sea" just shifts you north.

"West Med" and "Atlantic" really shift you west (those were the 2 main admixtures in Copper-Bronze Age Iberia).

MarkoZ
14-01-17, 16:29
Marko, modern Karelians =/= Mesolithic Karelians.

Did you even bother to read Lazaridis paper? There's no mention of modern Karelians, of course.

Tomenable
14-01-17, 16:30
Did you even bother to read Lazaridis paper? There's no mention of modern Karelians, of course.

I did read it but it was long ago. OK sorry, I will check it again.

johen
14-01-17, 19:05
As per Lazaridis, the Karelians do have ancestry from something that peaks in Neolithic Iran. The affinity can be seen as early as Hotu III. Take a look at figures 1 & 4:

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/06/16/059311.full.pdf

Interesting. In Hotu and Belt cave, 8,000y old pottery was found, being similar to lake baikal pottery.
https://s21.postimg.org/mn8tnjkhj/Capture.png

In Karelia, comb ware pottery was found, which originated in Liao valley in Manchu area and migrated thru Lake Baikal to Europe.
"However, calibrated radiocarbon dates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating) for the comb-ware fragments found (e.g., in the Karelian isthmus), give a total interval of 5600 BC – 2300 BC (Geochronometria Vol. 23, pp 93–99, 2004)."

MOESAN
14-01-17, 19:22
As you can see RISE98 had more of "Eastern Euro" admixture than Scandinavian R1a samples.

He had 16,41% of "Eastern Euro" - compared to 11,15% and 7,53% for two samples with R1a.

He had about as much of "North Sea" and he had actually much less of "Atlantic" than R1a men.



"North Sea" does not really shift you west, at least not during the Bronze Age (IIRC, Sintashta, Potapovka, Srubnaya, etc. samples from Russia also scored a lot of "North Sea"). "Atlantic" is what shifts you west. "North Sea" just shifts you north.

"West Med" and "Atlantic" really shift you west (those were the 2 main admixtures in Copper-Bronze Age Iberia).

I cannot find the Eurogenes post - Surely I mistake Corded R1b with a Nordic Bronze Y-R1b, I beg your pardon, I did not find my notes - I totally agree with you this RISE98 is very "north-east" and "east" - OK too for 'northsea': these people according to me came from N-E before to specialize in N-W - I put "northsea" between (-) not sure of the Eurogenes statement in details - you and others may forget my useless post! thanks for details I had not.

berun
15-01-17, 08:56
if we take 20% EHG in Satsurbia (I doubt it 's so high) so we can have only 20x15/100 = 3% more of "Caucasus" in play, no more, still according to Genetiker! As long we tely on him, it doesn't change things too dramatically.

I have not explained it well. The EHG admixture in Satsurblia would not be a true EHG but original part of the Caucasians, to give an example it would be to find out in Europeans an African admixture of 25% if we take Mulattos as source pop.

Voyager
17-01-17, 19:16
Marko, modern Karelians =/= Mesolithic Karelians.

================================

I think that PIE expanded into Europe along two routes, a southern route dominated by R1b-P312 with R1b-Z2103, and a northern one dominated by R1a-M417. As for R1b-U106, it could as well go along the northern route together with R1a-M417, considering that U106 has not been found in any Bell Beaker remains thus far. The oldest known U106 is RISE98 dated to 2275-2032 BC from Lilla Beddinge in Southern Sweden (Scania), and that burial was located in Corded Ware cultural zone. Autosomally, RISE98 was more similar to other Corded Ware samples (the ones with R1a), than to any Bell Beaker sample:


Where are the R1b-P312 aDNA in the Steppes? I saw none so far. Only R1b-Z2103 or R1a.

Tomenable
18-01-17, 01:16
Where are the R1b-P312 aDNA in the Steppes? I saw none so far. Only R1b-Z2103 or R1a.

Most likely in Ukraine, from which there are no any ancient Y-DNA samples so far.

1) Ancient samples of R1b:

http://i.imgur.com/BweodQZ.png

2) Ancient samples of R1a:

http://i.imgur.com/hCIB7AZ.png

Rogalin samples are from Eastern Poland, not from Ukraine. Ukraine is a "desert".

holderlin
18-01-17, 16:49
Remember Villabruna shares Alleles with CHG so EHG will as well. At least a little.

We will find the origins of Corded Ware and "European" R1b subclades in Sredny Stog and subsequent Ukranian BA steppe samples.

Pottery with impressed cords is first found in Sredny Stog, which also appears to have a greater affinity with the Balkan Neolithic. This is genetically exactly what Corded Ware, Srubna, and Sintashta look like as well.

johen
18-01-17, 19:02
Is it possible that Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum regarding sredni stog?


Gimbutas (1985: 191) has suggested that the Srednij Stog II culture in the DnieperDonets region which she identifies as her Kurgan I and II cultures (ca. 4500–3500BCE) was not the result of local evolution in that region but had its source in an
intrusion from an earlier culture farther east with connections to the earliest Neoli-thic in the Middle Urals and Soviet Central Asia. The archaeological record of the regions still farther east before that time is unfortunately still largely blank.:Edwin G. PulleyblankUniversity of British [email protected] PEOPLES OF THE STEPPE FRONTIER IN EARLYCHINESE SOURCES*


...the linguistic evidence from our family does not lead us beyond Gimbutas’ secondary homeland and that the Khvalynsk culture on the middle Volga and the Maykop culture in the northern Caucasus cannot be identified with the Indo-Europeans. Any proposal which goes beyond the Sredny Stog culture must start from the possible affinities of Indo-European with other language families. It is usually recognized that the best candidate in this respect is the Uralic language family, while further connections with the Altaic languages and perhaps even Dravidian are possible... What we do have to take into account is the typological similarity of Proto-Indo-European to the North-West Caucasian (i.e. Adyg) languages. If this similarity can be attributed to areal factors, we may think of Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic which was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum. It now appears that this view is actually supported by the archaeological evidence. If it is correct, we may locate the earliest (Uralo-Altaic) ancestors of the speakers of Proto-Indo-European north of the Caspian Sea in the seventh millennium. [F.Kortlandt, Journal of Indo-European Studies, Volume 18, 1990, p.131]

There is now a consensus of linguists and mythologists that the Indo-European linguistic family is closest to the Finno-Ugric. The Indo-Uralic hypothesis, whereby the Indo-European family is classed with the Uralic-Yukaghir, Altaic, and others, is particularly strong (Anttila 1972). [M.Gimbutas, Current Anthropology, Volume 27, Issue 4 (Aug. - Oct., 1986), p. 306]

MOESAN
18-01-17, 23:25
I have not explained it well. The EHG admixture in Satsurblia would not be a true EHG but original part of the Caucasians, to give an example it would be to find out in Europeans an African admixture of 25% if we take Mulattos as source pop.

You was clear and I'm clear too: IF I RELY ON GENETIKER the results are still the same ones: your "Satsurbian EHG" cannot go over 3%! (maths!) - but it depends on the confidence we can have in Genetiker for that, what is another question (I compare Genetiker results with Genetiker results to try to find something out, but not with other results)

berun
19-01-17, 20:56
Well, in Genetiker I see 15-20% of EHG component in Satsurblia or "Georgia_MHG", and some 10% in "Georgia_PHG". Also I saw similar levels in a paper.

MOESAN
20-01-17, 16:25
Well, in Genetiker I see 15-20% of EHG component in Satsurblia or "Georgia_MHG", and some 10% in "Georgia_PHG". Also I saw similar levels in a paper.

No comment - it's only arithmetics...

berun
20-01-17, 21:40
No comment - it's only arithmetics...

I think that you take yet the EHG share as EHG...

MOESAN
21-01-17, 12:45
I put it on the table: if a genuine CHG was 80% not shared CHG not EHGlike + 20% EHG(like) (from common ancestor, not from Steppes EHG), in solid admixtures runs it could roughly keep the same internal percentages, OK?
the only question is: did GENETIKER identify well the GENUINE not shared not EHGlike ancestral CHG? if he did it correctly and found about 15% we HAVE TO ADD 20% of 15% which is 3%... arithmetics again - sure these %s can vary a bit in transmission but here is the principle - otherwise, you and others could doubt about the ability of GENETIKER to identify genuine non EHGlike CHG, and criticize his criteria - I confess I have not the knowledge to do it.

LeBrok
21-01-17, 18:07
I put it on the table: if a genuine CHG was 80% not shared CHG not EHGlike + 20% EHG(like) (from common ancestor, not from Steppes EHG), in solid admixtures runs it could roughly keep the same internal percentages, OK?
the only question is: did GENETIKER identify well the GENUINE not shared not EHGlike ancestral CHG? if he did it correctly and found about 15% we HAVE TO ADD 20% of 15% which is 3%... arithmetics again - sure these %s can vary a bit in transmission but here is the principle - otherwise, you and others could doubt about the ability of GENETIKER to identify genuine non EHGlike CHG, and criticize his criteria - I confess I have not the knowledge to do it.
In Harappa run they show ancient connection through Baloch, and recent (though might be ancient too) through NE Euro. Together about 20% similarities. 15% ancient and 5% recent or ancient.
These admixtures were already present in Kostenki14 guy about 37 kya. If there was recent genetic exchange between EHG and CHG it would be by EHG going through Caucasus to CHG side, but not in reverse. If CHG went to EHG we would have seen some percentage of Caucasian admixture in EHG. There is none.



Connection of EHG to CHG








M218547
EHG

M677694
CHG

F999936



Samara HG


Satsurblia CHG
11KYA

Kostenki
37kya


Run time
5.57

Run time
9.39

Run time
18.02


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
13.18


Baloch
14.33

Baloch
40.65

Baloch
12.49


Caucasian
-

Caucasian
50.76

Caucasian
-


NE-Euro
75.62

NE-Euro
5.7

NE-Euro
29.02


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
4.28


Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
1.75


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
0.88

Papuan
5.16


American
9.62

American
-

American
3.32


Beringian
0.15

Beringian
-

Beringian
1.43


Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
18.76


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
5.89


San
-

San
0.15

San
1.24


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
1.82


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.92


W-African
0.2

W-African
1.84

W-African
0.73

holderlin
21-01-17, 22:13
Does MA-1 show any Baloch through Harappa?

This place has become so predictable whenever IE comes into question.

Some are trying to cram as much "Teal" into the steppe as possible to fit their own agendas while the other side stands guard. Lol

There's no doubting that there was a very old circum-Caspian interaction zone, but if there was some sort of expansion of "Teals" onto the steppe it would be glaringly obvious just as Anatolian farmer expansions are in the Balkans/Western Steppe->Europe.

I think Baloch is some very old Caucasoid signal.

MarkoZ
21-01-17, 23:13
Kurds and Iranians are trying to cram as much "Teal" into the steppe as possible to fit their own agendas while the other side stands guard. Lol


The all-powerful Kurdish-Iranian lobby truly controls the discourse on this forum (and probably in academia as a whole).

LeBrok
21-01-17, 23:13
Does MA-1 show any Baloch through Harappa?


Mal'ta



Population


S-Indian
10.13


Baloch
24.09


Caucasian
-


NE-Euro
40.14


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.7


American
17.71


Beringian
6.74


Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
-


San
0.3


E-African
-


Pygmy
0.19


W-African
-










This place has become so predictable whenever IE comes into question.

Kurds and Iranians are trying to cram as much "Teal" into the steppe as possible to fit their own agendas while the other side stands guard. Lol

There's no doubting that there was a very old circum-Caspian interaction zone, but if there was some sort of expansion of "Teals" onto the steppe it would be glaringly obvious just as Anatolian farmer expansions are in the Balkans/Western Steppe->Europe.

I think Baloch is some very old Caucasoid signal.



Pre Yamnaya

Goergia


Yamnaya

Yamnaya


M218547
EHG

M677694
CHG

M828815
Rise522

M766878
I0441


Samara HG


Satsurblia CHG
11KYA

Ulan iV, Yamnaya
4.5 kya

Poltavka Yamnaya
2.7 kya


Run time
5.57

Run time
9.39

Run time
10.89

Run time
10.78


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
14.33

Baloch
40.65

Baloch
33.24

Baloch
30.06


Caucasian
-

Caucasian
50.76

Caucasian
6.58

Caucasian
7.57


NE-Euro
75.62

NE-Euro
5.7

NE-Euro
56.02

NE-Euro
59.14


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
0.99


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
0.88

Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
9.62

American
-

American
2.46

American
2.21


Beringian
0.15

Beringian
-

Beringian
0.75

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
0.15

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.2

W-African
1.84

W-African
0.95

W-African
-



Trick is Caucasian admixture here, and also Baloch. Caucasian was missing in Pontic Steppe before, so showing in Yamnayans it is unequivocal sign of contact with Transcaucasian population. CHG and Iranian Neolithic Farmer who had lots of both, Caucasian and Baloch. Baloch in Yamnaya goes up too, practicaly doubles. Yamnaya has 7% more Caucasian and 16% more Baloch than pre Yamnaya population EHG. That's roughly a quarter of Iranian Farmer genome. Rise of caucasian to baloch in ratio of 7 to 16 percent is almost exactly the ratio of Iranian farmer's both admixtures .


M967114 I1290


Iranian Neolithic
10 kya


Run time
7.91


S-Indian
6.13


Baloch
62.71


Caucasian
24.97


NE-Euro
-


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.35


American
-


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
3.88


San
0.18


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
1.78



By my calculations EHG of Ukraine mixed with farmer migrants from Neolith Iran in ration 3 to 1 respectively producing population and culture of Yamnaya. Well at least central Yamnaya from where we have genomes. North Yamnaya and West Yamnaya probably were somewhat different.

PS. Caucasian admixture didn't exist in Kostenki or Mal'ta boy before. Caucasian is not an ancient admixture of the region. It is either a new admixture which was "created" in Caucasia or it came from far away place.

holderlin
22-01-17, 05:09
The all-powerful Kurdish-Iranian lobby truly controls the discourse on this forum (and probably in academia as a whole).

Yeah, I shouldn't have been that specific. I'll edit. I had two screaming kids when I posted. Not fair.

It's more than this though. I noticed some funny patterns in Maciamo's (spelling?) thread about megaliths and farmers too.

I'm saying none of us are innocent and some people are very obvious about it.

holderlin
22-01-17, 05:20
Mal'ta



Population


S-Indian
10.13


Baloch
24.09


Caucasian
-


NE-Euro
40.14


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.7


American
17.71


Beringian
6.74


Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
-


San
0.3


E-African
-


Pygmy
0.19


W-African
-












Pre Yamnaya

Goergia


Yamnaya

Yamnaya


M218547
EHG

M677694
CHG

M828815
Rise522

M766878
I0441


Samara HG


Satsurblia CHG
11KYA

Ulan iV, Yamnaya
4.5 kya

Poltavka Yamnaya
2.7 kya


Run time
5.57

Run time
9.39

Run time
10.89

Run time
10.78


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
14.33

Baloch
40.65

Baloch
33.24

Baloch
30.06


Caucasian
-

Caucasian
50.76

Caucasian
6.58

Caucasian
7.57


NE-Euro
75.62

NE-Euro
5.7

NE-Euro
56.02

NE-Euro
59.14


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
0.99


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
0.88

Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
9.62

American
-

American
2.46

American
2.21


Beringian
0.15

Beringian
-

Beringian
0.75

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
0.15

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.2

W-African
1.84

W-African
0.95

W-African
-



Trick is Caucasian admixture here, and also Baloch. Caucasian was missing in Pontic Steppe before, so showing in Yamnayans it is unequivocal sign of contact with Transcaucasian population. CHG and Iranian Neolithic Farmer who had lots of both, Caucasian and Baloch. Baloch in Yamnaya goes up too, practicaly doubles. Yamnaya has 7% more Caucasian and 16% more Baloch than pre Yamnaya population EHG. That's roughly a quarter of Iranian Farmer genome. Rise of caucasian to baloch in ratio of 7 to 16 percent is almost exactly the ratio of Iranian farmer's both admixtures .


M967114 I1290


Iranian Neolithic
10 kya


Run time
7.91


S-Indian
6.13


Baloch
62.71


Caucasian
24.97


NE-Euro
-


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.35


American
-


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
3.88


San
0.18


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
1.78



By my calculations EHG of Ukraine mixed with farmer migrants from Neolith Iran in ration 3 to 1 respectively producing population and culture of Yamnaya. Well at least central Yamnaya from where we have genomes. North Yamnaya and West Yamnaya probably were somewhat different.

PS. Caucasian admixture didn't exist in Kostenki or Mal'ta boy before. Caucasian is not an ancient admixture of the region. It is either a new admixture which was "created" in Caucasia or it came from far away place.

Yes, this is what I was driving at, as if your first post wasn't clear enough.

The presence of Baloch on the steppe predates most of the stuff that's hotly debated on here.

MOESAN
22-01-17, 13:14
Some Iranians or Kurds could be a bit biased, but I think others are the same too - I'm not sure at all they control the forum here - I find beter to respect others opinions even if I can be in disaccord - concerning comparisons between ancient and current pops, I remember some posts about calculators possible errors in pooling ancient DNA - so yes, the problem is the reliability of some admixtures runs concerning past with modern labellings - I'm tempted to think that CHL and EBA pops of steppes shew between 60/40 to 80/20 of "northernEHG"+something more Siberian/Amerindian as opposed to CHG/"southernEHG", by simplification - we know these different cultures were not homogenous, even the settlements grouped under the same name - I don't speak here of the later LBA pops were a West-Eurasian input seems out of contestation -

berun
22-01-17, 13:36
I put it on the table: if a genuine CHG was 80% not shared CHG not EHGlike + 20% EHG(like) (from common ancestor, not from Steppes EHG), in solid admixtures runs it could roughly keep the same internal percentages, OK?

No. We rely on two samples, there are other possibilities. And such would be the case for the "easy" HG spread from the Caucasian refugium, because if the spread would be by developed farmers/herders their own admixture would be even more complex.


the only question is: did GENETIKER identify well the GENUINE not shared not EHGlike ancestral CHG? if he did it correctly and found about 15% we HAVE TO ADD 20% of 15% which is 3%... arithmetics again - sure these %s can vary a bit in transmission but here is the principle - otherwise, you and others could doubt about the ability of GENETIKER to identify genuine non EHGlike CHG, and criticize his criteria - I confess I have not the knowledge to do it.

You was speaking then about admixture in Yamnayans so. But then I need to explain again. The Yamnyan EHG admixture... would have already a Caucasian admixture (from CHG or from farmers/herders spreading about 6000 BC). So, we can even do more fukkingly complicated admixtures: deliver to Russia CHG after the climatology would be milder around 11000 BC, then add up farmers/herders from the Caucasus around 6000 BC, and then add upp "Maykopers" from the Caucasus around 3500 BC. Run whichever admixture program you like and wait til the computer explotes or give you a black scren.
;)

MOESAN
22-01-17, 14:53
No. We rely on two samples, there are other possibilities. And such would be the case for the "easy" HG spread from the Caucasian refugium, because if the spread would be by developed farmers/herders their own admixture would be even more complex.



You was speaking then about admixture in Yamnayans so. But then I need to explain again. The Yamnyan EHG admixture... would have already a Caucasian admixture (from CHG or from farmers/herders spreading about 6000 BC). So, we can even do more fukkingly complicated admixtures: deliver to Russia CHG after the climatology would be milder around 11000 BC, then add up farmers/herders from the Caucasus around 6000 BC, and then add upp "Maykopers" from the Caucasus around 3500 BC. Run whichever admixture program you like and wait til the computer explotes or give you a black scren.
;)

??? Hard work for me to understand your reasoning: have we not at least some works about pre-Yamna (Samara) and Satsurbia and Kotias?: had these pops a 60 or 80% of overlap between them??? I'm not sure whatever the confidence we can have even in scientists works about admixture - so we have kind of EHG and CHG auDNA, and the "common" EHGlike part doesn't go over the 20% of the Caucasus people, or I missed something. I'll take some hollidays about this precise stuff, I'm growing old and fragile (LOL) - wait en see the next contradictions on the matter -