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LeBrok
15-01-17, 00:09
I was running samples from Montenegro and Bulgaria through GedMatch Harappa World and I couldn't believe my eyes. They were just crazy in what they were showing. Here they are:



M214301 RISE595


M836655 RISE596


M777769 V2


M540478 T2G2


M212372 P192-1


M030961 K8



Montenegro LBA [?] U5a2 -

Montenegro IA [?] X1'2'3 -

Bulgaria LBA [1500-1100 BC] n/a -

Bulgaria IA [850-700 BC] HV(16311) -

Bulgaria IA [800-500 BC] U3b E-M78>Z1920

Bulgaria IA [450-400 BC] n/a -


Population


Population


Population


Population


Population


Population



S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
5.77

Baloch
12.42

Baloch
-

Baloch
8.15

Baloch
-

Baloch
-


Caucasian
27.43

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
18.57

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
20.34

Caucasian
-


NE-Euro
16.55

NE-Euro
50.11

NE-Euro
39.64

NE-Euro
-

NE-Euro
51.53

NE-Euro
30.39


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
43.58

Siberian
-

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
10.75

NE-Asian
13.9

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
2.04

Papuan
-

Papuan
1.76

Papuan
-


American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
0.38

Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
48.39

Mediterranean
23.39

Mediterranean
25.86

Mediterranean
37.64

Mediterranean
20.5

Mediterranean
60.53


SW-Asian
1.87

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
10.25

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
9.09


E-African
-

E-African
3.33

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
-

W-African
-

W-African
-

W-African
-

W-African
5.87

W-African
-




First one from LBA Montenegro is not that bad. It is close to hungarian farmer samples with a little of Anatolian Chalcolithic. Baloch is up 5% and Caucasian 10%. It is Bronze Age in Europe and some IE should have shown here by now. Here is Hungarian farmer for comparison:


NE7 Hungary



Population



S-Indian
-


Baloch
-


Caucasian
19.04


NE-Euro
16.69


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-


American
-


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
56.18


SW-Asian
7.96


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
0.11







Then IA Montenegro, for first glance looks like Unetice from Poland, below.


M453254 RISE154
4.06


Unetice EBA Poland [1925-1765 BC] K1a4a1 -


Population



S-Indian
-


Baloch
14.46


Caucasian
4.05


NE-Euro
53.71


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-


American
0.96


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
26.58


SW-Asian
-


San
-


E-African
0.2


Pygmy
-


W-African
-



Lots of NE Euro, substantial Baloch and low Caucasian, normal Med for CW. Then I look and see 10% NE Asian!!! Holy smoke, this guy's father or grandfather must have galloped 5 thousand miles to get here. And why did he brought only NE Asian and nothing else from long journey from over there, like Siberian or Beringian?
Mongolians have 62% of NE Asians. Is this from Iron Age Mongolian or Hun invasion? Or it is something wrong with the sample.

Then we have BA Bulgarian, and again NE Asian popped out, at 14% this time! But no Baloch and a lot of Caucasian. Did this invasion of Huns came through Anatolia this time? Crazy.

Then we have Bulgaria IA 850-700 BC, with 43% Siberian admixture and 37% Med. Like a Neolithic Farmer cross with reindeer hunter from Yakutia. Crazy!

Next one Bulgaria IA 800-500 BC, looks more like Hungarian BA, though 2 ky later, but what is this with 6% West African?

The last one Bulgaria IA 450-400 is crazy again. Looks like CA Iberian who lived 3 ky before, below.


CA Iberia, ATP2, M849224


Population



S-Indian
-


Baloch
-


Caucasian
4.19


NE-Euro
24.19


SE-Asian
0.23


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.23


American
-


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
63.33


SW-Asian
5.14


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
2.69



But with 9% San, which must have come from South Africa!

I think there is something wrong with these samples. Possibly of very low quality.

DuPidh
15-01-17, 04:06
Montenegro had a small black community in Ulcinj. I don't know how they got there, but their presence has been known. So if its some African admixture probably its from them

New Englander
15-01-17, 04:45
As to the NE Asian, I would assume its the Huns, or the Golden Horde.

LeBrok
15-01-17, 05:41
As to the NE Asian, I would assume its the Huns, or the Golden Horde.There is a little problem with this as the Steppe was taken by Scythians who didn't have much of NE Asian-Mongolian like admixture.


scythian



Population



S-Indian
0.67


Baloch
24.99


Caucasian
7.68


NE-Euro
45.27


SE-Asian
0.83


Siberian
6.39


NE-Asian
1.31


Papuan
-


American
2.85


Beringian
1.40


Mediterranean
8.62


SW-Asian
-


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
-

davef
15-01-17, 05:49
43 percent siberian and 37 percent Mediterranean. Wow. Am I the only one who's jaw dropped after seeing that result?

Milan.M
15-01-17, 09:15
First what is their ethnicity,could they be gypsies let's say,Muslim Montenegrin's Turks,whatever just guessing or admixed with them,forget Huns,Schythians golden horde.

LABERIA
15-01-17, 11:05
Montenegro had a small black community in Ulcinj. I don't know how they got there, but their presence has been known. So if its some African admixture probably its from them

Yes it's true that exists a small community of blacks in Ulqin. Ulqin now is part of Montenegro, but was and still continue to be an Albanian city. Ulqinaks were famous sailors throughout history, the descendants of ancient liburnians. The presence of this community of blacks is dedicated exactly to this Ulqinak pirates.
BTW, the inhabitants of today Montenegro are mostly slavized Albanians with some vlach and Slavic influx.

Maciamo
15-01-17, 11:15
Bulgaria has long been at the receiving end of migrations from the Eurasian Steppe (http://www.eupedia.com/history/5000_years_of_steppe_migrations_into_europe.shtml) , and that occasionally included people from the Altai and Mongolia, but also from various parts of Siberia (e.g. the Uralic Magyars).

What is more surprising in that Bulgaria IA sample with 42% of Siberian is the rest of the admixtures.

First of all, that sample completely lacks NE European (i.e. also Indo-European) admixture. What kind of population in Europe, Central Asia or the northern Middle East still lacked any NE European admixture (I mean not even 0.1%) around 800 BCE? Even Chalcolithic and EBA Anatolians and Caucasians had clearly noticeable levels of NE European admixture.

Then, other LBA and A Bulgarian samples have no SW Asian, except one that has 1.9%. But this one has 10.2%! I suppose there is no need to say that Southwest Asia isn't one the way between Mongolia and Bulgaria, and that no population in the middle has any considerable SW Asian admixture. If we exclude the 42% NE Asian from the genome, a few generations ago the non-Mongoloid ancestors of that person could have carried nearly 20% of SW Asian, 15% of Baloch/Gedrosian and 65% of Mediterranean. The problem is that there isn't any population with that kind of admixture. The closest would be North Africans (esp. Tunisians), but with East African instead of Baloch. Maybe we should assume that the Baloch came together with the Siberian, as the total is close to 50%.

I looked up the HarappaWorld K=16 admixture for worldwide populations (http://www.harappadna.org/2012/05/harappaworld-admixture/) (if you click on the admixture's name the listing get sorted by frequency) and the closest to pure Siberian without NE Asian are the Nganasans (89%), who live in the Krasnoyarsk Krai in Central Siberia. They do have a bit of Baloch and Beringian. Actually let's assume that this sample is a first generation hybrid. One parent would have contributed 43.6 Siberian, 6% Baloch and 0.4% Beringian, and the other parent 37.6% Mediterranean, 10.2% SW Asian and 2.2% Baloch.

In that case the second parent would be much closer to a pure European Neolithic farmer with 20% of SW Asian admixture, so more like a Levantine farmer, but with only a little Baloch/Gedrosian and no NE_Euro admixture at all. How is that possible in Iron Age Bulgaria is a mystery to me. I can understand that some Siberian tribe migrate toward the Balkans from time to time. Here considering that the individual is female and carries mt-haplogroup HV, the mother would have been the one of Middle Eastern and the father of Siberian origin. That makes sense. The invader are typically men who take local brides. In that case the local bride would have either recently arrived from the South Levant or lived in a sort of time warp since the Late Neolithic, immune to the 3400 years of Indo-European presence in the Balkans by 800 BCE.

Yaan
15-01-17, 11:29
What is the ethnicity of this people? Where do you have the samples from? R you sure they are Bulgarian and Montenegrin?

Milan.M
15-01-17, 12:25
Yes it's true that exists a small community of blacks in Ulqin. Ulqin now is part of Montenegro, but was and still continue to be an Albanian city. Ulqinaks were famous sailors throughout history, the descendants of ancient liburnians. The presence of this community of blacks is dedicated exactly to this Ulqinak pirates.
BTW, the inhabitants of today Montenegro are mostly slavized Albanians with some vlach and Slavic influx.

Phantasmagoria still there,what else you would comment my friend if not this.Ulcinj Albanians Liburni,lets try to think rather opposite lol Albanians are Albanized Vlachs and Slavs,Greeks,looking at your vocabulary will proof this, if one discard Latin and Slavic borrowings,what's left? By contrast Montenegrin's speak much pure language lol There is good motive for my wannabe Illyrian friend.Can't you leave your bias for somewhere else whenever Balkan country is mention here?

LABERIA
15-01-17, 12:51
Phantasmagoria still there,what else you would comment my friend if not this.Ulcinj Albanians Liburni,I think rather opposite lol Albanians are Albanized Vlachs and Slavs,Greeks,looking at your vocabulary will proof this, if one discard Latin and Slavic borrowings,what's left? By contrast Montenegrin's speak much pure language lol There is good motive for my wannabe Illyrian friend.

Can you support your claims? Because i can support with documents my previous post.

Milan.M
15-01-17, 13:03
Can you support your claims? Because i can support with documents my previous post.
Where is documents that Ulcinj Albanians are Liburni?

LABERIA
15-01-17, 13:11
Documents that Ulcinj Albanians are Liburni?

That the today Montenegrins are slavized Albanians with some vlach and slavic influx.

Milan.M
15-01-17, 13:19
That the today Montenegrins are slavized Albanians with some vlach and slavic influx.

First show the documents for your claim of Liburni and second such documents every other country in neighborhood has them but all of them are opposite as i wrote above,better leave at least from here the nationalist rhetorics and socialize yourself.

LABERIA
15-01-17, 13:27
First show the documents for your claim of Liburni and second such documents every other country in neighborhood has them but all of them are opposite as i wrote above,better leave at least from here the nationalist rhetorics and socialize yourself.

First, this thread is about Montenegrins.
Second, open a random map and have a look.
And third, keep in mind that from a normal discussion in a forum is expected that participants will focus on the subject and not on the person you're talking.

Milan.M
15-01-17, 13:34
First, this thread is about Montenegrins.
Second, open a random map and have a look.
And third, keep in mind that from a normal discussion in a forum is expected that participants will focus on the subject and not on the person you're talking.

Yes and you started talking ancient sailors and who what ethnicity is,so I felt someone should cut it.Sorry that I was online,have good day now.

Pax Augusta
15-01-17, 14:02
What is the ethnicity of this people? Where do you have the samples from? R you sure they are Bulgarian and Montenegrin?


RISE595 and RISE596 are samples from present-day Montenegro dated to the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age, respectively. I haven't been able to dig up a lot of information about their archaeological contexts, but both are from Kurgan-like Tumuli burials.

http://polishgenes.blogspot.it/2016/02/pca-of-rise595-rise596-and-rise598.html

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/QgCKKku_KzFFM4eLyO-C52yvrLLRMErRgww-xWJv-yEY54UHWoM72In0kXF-a-Gs-hGfx_DlU939TIE=w1440-h727

The Montenegrin samples come from the Velika Gruda tumuluses (Ops. Kotor, Montenegro)


While the other tumuluses in the area are located on tops of hills, these two tumuluses are located in the middle of the Tivat field. The local people preserved the legends that these two stone tumuluses were Prokletije, piles of stones accumulated through centuries as part of the cursing ceremony. I wrote about Prokletija ceremony in my post entitled "Prokletija - The cursing ceremony". As a result, these tumuluses were preserved as the taboo linked with Prokletije forbids removal of even a single stone.

Velika Gruda and Mala Gruda tumuluses are only 270 meters away from each other. Mala Gruda is a single phase burial tumulus and has only a late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) tumb. Velika Gruda is a multi phase burial which has late Copper age (Early Bronze age), Iron age and Medieval burials. The late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) burial from Velika Gruda is equivalent to the late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) burial from Mala Gruda. These were rich princely graves, full of well made and decorated ceramics and metal objects made from silver, gold and copper alloys. The archaeologists who excavated these burials postulated that the people who were buried inside the Velika and Mala Gruda late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) burials were involved in trades between the Balkan Hinterland and Southern Italy and probably the rest of the Mediterranean.

So who was buried in these tumuluses? The archaeologists admit that despite all the modern procedures, analysis and equipment used it is "difficult to understand who built the Mala and Velika Gruda burials. This is because there is at present so little knowledge about what was going on in the Southwestern Balkans during the time when these tumuluses were built. Basically the problem is that the way these tumuluses were built, the way they were positioned in the low lying landscape as well as some of the burial rite details have no parallels in the Mediterranean basin except in a small area of Montenegro and Northern Albania. The first next similar late Copper Age (early Bronze Age) burial is found in the steppe of the Yamna culture homeland....

http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.it/2015/09/mala-i-velika-gruda-tumuluses.html


101 ancient Eurasian genomes (Allentoft et al. 2015)

Source:http://eurogenes.blogspot.it/2015/06/101-ancient-eurasian-genomes-allentoft.html

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/Feo5RGiPrkS0_yhpfhWPLBISJXMOtQn9HQ7VBQrpCL1tMwrVyx mPg8xtKDnaIx8a6cEjUNhps8U82vU=w1440-h727

LABERIA
15-01-17, 14:07
Yes and you started talking ancient sailors and who what ethnicity is,so I felt someone should cut it.Sorry that I was online,have good day now.

You can start with this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardiaei
I hope you can find the way after you have read this two links.

Angela
15-01-17, 17:25
I think these are the same genomes which were discussed by us here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31526-Bronze-Age-Bulgarian-sample?highlight=Thracians

If they are, they are not high coverage, and one of them is supposedly contaminated.

LeBrok
15-01-17, 17:43
What is the ethnicity of this people? Where do you have the samples from? R you sure they are Bulgarian and Montenegrin? We are sure they are not Bulgarians and Montenegrins. They are Bronze and Iron Age people who lived in todays area of Bulgaria and Montenegro. We are trying to figure out why they have such weird genetics, not fitting time and place. Well, except one. The BA Montenegro looks about right. The rest could have come from Mars as well.

LeBrok
15-01-17, 17:57
Bulgaria has long been at the receiving end of migrations from the Eurasian Steppe (http://www.eupedia.com/history/5000_years_of_steppe_migrations_into_europe.shtml) , and that occasionally included people from the Altai and Mongolia, but also from various parts of Siberia (e.g. the Uralic Magyars).

What is more surprising in that Bulgaria IA sample with 42% of Siberian is the rest of the admixtures.

First of all, that sample completely lacks NE European (i.e. also Indo-European) admixture. What kind of population in Europe, Central Asia or the northern Middle East still lacked any NE European admixture (I mean not even 0.1%) around 800 BCE? Even Chalcolithic and EBA Anatolians and Caucasians had clearly noticeable levels of NE European admixture.

Then, other LBA and A Bulgarian samples have no SW Asian, except one that has 1.9%. But this one has 10.2%! I suppose there is no need to say that Southwest Asia isn't one the way between Mongolia and Bulgaria, and that no population in the middle has any considerable SW Asian admixture. If we exclude the 42% NE Asian from the genome, a few generations ago the non-Mongoloid ancestors of that person could have carried nearly 20% of SW Asian, 15% of Baloch/Gedrosian and 65% of Mediterranean. The problem is that there isn't any population with that kind of admixture. The closest would be North Africans (esp. Tunisians), but with East African instead of Baloch. Maybe we should assume that the Baloch came together with the Siberian, as the total is close to 50%.

I looked up the HarappaWorld K=16 admixture for worldwide populations (http://www.harappadna.org/2012/05/harappaworld-admixture/) (if you click on the admixture's name the listing get sorted by frequency) and the closest to pure Siberian without NE Asian are the Nganasans (89%), who live in the Krasnoyarsk Krai in Central Siberia. They do have a bit of Baloch and Beringian. Actually let's assume that this sample is a first generation hybrid. One parent would have contributed 43.6 Siberian, 6% Baloch and 0.4% Beringian, and the other parent 37.6% Mediterranean, 10.2% SW Asian and 2.2% Baloch.

In that case the second parent would be much closer to a pure European Neolithic farmer with 20% of SW Asian admixture, so more like a Levantine farmer, but with only a little Baloch/Gedrosian and no NE_Euro admixture at all. How is that possible in Iron Age Bulgaria is a mystery to me. I can understand that some Siberian tribe migrate toward the Balkans from time to time. Here considering that the individual is female and carries mt-haplogroup HV, the mother would have been the one of Middle Eastern and the father of Siberian origin. That makes sense. The invader are typically men who take local brides. In that case the local bride would have either recently arrived from the South Levant or lived in a sort of time warp since the Late Neolithic, immune to the 3400 years of Indo-European presence in the Balkans by 800 BCE.

I agree. Technically we could find the source populations, through times and places, to mix and receive something similar to these guys. In real life however, to get them to Balkans in their pure state to make children is impossible. Heck, it would be a miracle to get one of them happen, but 4 weird genomes within few hundred years, impossible. It would require a big tribe scale of migrations through thousands of miles, different climatic zones and food source of these hunter gatherers of Siberian, NE Asian, San, W Africans, and time travel of Neolithic Levant, in few generations to get to Bulgaria in same time period.
There is something wrong with these samples for sure, but I don't know what yet.

Sile
15-01-17, 18:02
We are sure they are not Bulgarians and Montenegrins. They are Bronze and Iron Age people who lived in todays area of Bulgaria and Montenegro. We are trying to figure out why they have such weird genetics, not fitting time and place. Well, except one. The BA Montenegro looks about right. The rest could have come from Mars as well.

that is correct .......they are thracians

Sample P192-1 was found at the site of a pit sanctuary near Svilengrad, Bulgaria, excavated between 2004 and 2006. The pits are associated with the Thracian culture and date to the Early Iron Age (800–500 BC) based on pottery found in the pits. Ydna H1b1.

Sample T2G2 was found in a Thracian tumulus (burial mound) near the village of Stambolovo, Bulgaria. Two small tumuli dating to the Early Iron Age (850–700 BC) were excavated in 2008. A canine tooth from an inhumation burial of a child (c.12 years old) inside a dolium was used for DNA analysis.

Sample V2 was found in a flat cemetery dating to the Late Bronze Age (1500–1100 BC) near the village of Vratitsa, Bulgaria. Nine inhumation burials were excavated between 2003 and 2004. A molar from a juvenile male (age 16–17) was used for DNA analysis.

Sample K8 was found in the Yakimova Mogila Tumulus, which dates to the Iron Age (450–400 BC), near Krushare, Bulgaria. An aristocratic inhumation burial containing rich grave goods was excavated in 2008. A molar from one individual, probably male, was used for DNA analysis.
The contaminated sample is the "royal" K8 sample

LeBrok
15-01-17, 18:07
http://polishgenes.blogspot.it/2016/02/pca-of-rise595-rise596-and-rise598.html

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/QgCKKku_KzFFM4eLyO-C52yvrLLRMErRgww-xWJv-yEY54UHWoM72In0kXF-a-Gs-hGfx_DlU939TIE=w1440-h727

The Montenegrin samples come from the Velika Gruda tumuluses (Ops. Kotor, Montenegro)



http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.it/2015/09/mala-i-velika-gruda-tumuluses.html


101 ancient Eurasian genomes (Allentoft et al. 2015)

Source:http://eurogenes.blogspot.it/2015/06/101-ancient-eurasian-genomes-allentoft.html

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/Feo5RGiPrkS0_yhpfhWPLBISJXMOtQn9HQ7VBQrpCL1tMwrVyx mPg8xtKDnaIx8a6cEjUNhps8U82vU=w1440-h727
Thanks, good "digging". :) So these guys culturally relate to Steppe people. In this case we should be able to find Steppe admixtures like lots of NE Euro, Baloch, and some Siberian or NE Asian. Just the proportions are crazy.

LeBrok
15-01-17, 18:24
I think these are the same genomes which were discussed by us here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31526-Bronze-Age-Bulgarian-sample?highlight=Thracians

If they are, they are not high coverage, and one of them is supposedly contaminated.
Right on, Angela. I wish I had memory of yours. ;)
They seem to be of very low quality. I noticed that when run on GedMatch they complete the run in 2 seconds, which is like nothing. For comparison, I've run my kit and it took 20 seconds to be checked by Harappa calculator and show my data. Good quality ancient genomes like Loschbour and Stuttgart take about 10 seconds.
From all the samples above, BA Montenegro takes longest, 5 seconds, to calculate. Only one that we can roughly accept being about right for place and time. The rest of them take only 2 seconds to calculate. I'm sure the running time for kits is proportional to the size of the sample. Bigger/better quality sample takes longer to calculate. So it means, these Balkan samples are very tiny and definitely too small to get good statistical data about admixtures. Thus, crazy results.

Sile
15-01-17, 18:25
You can start with this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardiaei
I hope you can find the way after you have read this two links.

greeks where in the montengrian area

Greek colonization on the Illyrian seaboard probably began late in the 7th century B.C. or early in the 6th century. The most important settlements appear to have been at Epidamnus (Durazzo), Tragurium (Traù), Rhizon (near Cattaro), Salona (near Spalato), Epidaurum (Ragusavecchia)

followed by celts

The migrations of the Celts at the beginning of the 4th century disturbed the country between the Danube and the Adriatic. The Scordisci and other Celtic tribes settled there, and forced the Illyrians towards the south.

What is the age of this Montenegrin burial?

bicicleur
15-01-17, 18:31
can you run this one through GedMatch ?



Mezocsat Iron Age
Hungary
Ludas-Varju-dulo [IR1]Light brown/ dark blond hair, brown eyes
M
980-930 BC
N
22665262G, 15469724A
G2a1
Gamba 2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Gamba2014)

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/10/24/analyses-of-an-iron-age-hungarian-genome/




he's always intrigued me
the Mezocsat were a horse-riding tribe originating from the steppe
his Y-DNA N points toward eastern Siberia

he's to young to explain the Bulgaria LBA admixture though

Angela
15-01-17, 18:37
LeBrok, as per some earlier questions...

These are the Remedello samples:
GedMatch Number: T699825, T319214, T135721

I still haven't found the gedmatch number for Otzi.

LeBrok
15-01-17, 19:01
can you run this one through GedMatch ?



Mezocsat Iron Age
Hungary
Ludas-Varju-dulo [IR1]Light brown/ dark blond hair, brown eyes
M
980-930 BC
N
22665262G, 15469724A
G2a1
Gamba 2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Gamba2014)

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/10/24/analyses-of-an-iron-age-hungarian-genome/




he's always intrigued me
the Mezocsat were a horse-riding tribe originating from the steppe
his Y-DNA N points toward eastern Siberia

he's to young to explain the Bulgaria LBA admixture though
This seems to be a good sample, run time 7 seconds. From now on I'm going to include calculation time to indicate quality of a sample. It makes so much more sense than Bulgarian ones. He shows affinity to Unetice/CW, but with higher Caucasian, probably from Anatolian Bronze Age.


F999929
900 BC G2a1


IR Hungary
6.96


Population



S-Indian
-


Baloch
14.83


Caucasian
15.12


NE-Euro
43.91


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
2.97


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-


American
2.03


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
21.14


SW-Asian
-


San
-


E-African
-


Pygmy
-


W-African
-

Pax Augusta
15-01-17, 19:02
Thanks, good "digging". :) So these guys culturally relate to Steppe people. In this case we should be able to find Steppe admixtures like lots of NE Euro, Baloch, and some Siberian or NE Asian. Just the proportions are crazy.

It seems so, but there is no great consensus, Montenegrin Bronze Age hasn't been so much investigated so far. An interesting Polish paper on Velika Gruda site, RISE596 seems a Polish in Montenegro indeed :)

Bugaj, Urszula; Lutovac, Predrag; Bogacki, Miron; Trzeciecki, Maciej; Novak, Mario, Bronze-Age stone tumuli on Planinica Hill, obš. Tuzi, Montenegro. Instytut Archeologii i Etnologii Polskiej Akademii Nauk, Krakow 2013

https://bib.irb.hr/datoteka/728333.15_Bugaj_iin.pdf


Tumuli in Montenegro are regarded as Bronze and Early Iron Age structures, but the majority of those sites have not been explored. The archaeological record indicates significant differences in their construction. The tumuli on Planinica — the first investigated stone burial mounds in Montenegro — regarding their construction, have analogies with the Early Bronze Age site of Rječani near Nikšić only, they do not compare with sites with a later chronology. Giving the state of research on the topic however, it should be pointed out that this is only hinted at. The Brillenspirale found in the sarcophagus of Tumulus II, based on finds from the comprehensively published site Velika Gruda near Tivat, indicates a much later date — to the Late Bronze Age. The minimum number of 7 individuals (probably males) buried in Tumulus II — fitting the ancestral pattern — encourages the interpretation of a long-term burial



Tomenable on athrogenica


Woman RISE595 (Late Bronze Age Montenegro - Velika Gruda site):

Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers ------- 93.44%
Afanasievo_Yamnaya ------------- 0.00%

Woman RISE596 (Iron Age Montenegro - same site, Velika Gruda):

Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers ------- 49.57%
Afanasievo_Yamnaya ------------- 50.42%


http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5652-Ancients-with-DNA-land&p=155709&viewfull=1#post155709

DNA.land (posted on anthrogenica).

Bronze Age Montenegro RISE 595 (mtDNA U5a2d)

https://snag.gy/eafGiV.jpg

Iron Age Montenegro RISE 596 (mtDNA X):

https://snag.gy/nMWtwG.jpg

https://s22.postimg.org/4dr0dumoh/Montenegro+Poland+eng.png

LeBrok
15-01-17, 21:00
I moved Remedello discussion to Harappa thread http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32877-HarappaWorld-Gedmatch-post-and-compare-your-admixtures-to-ancient-and-contemporary

LeBrok
15-01-17, 21:07
It seems so, but there is no great consensus, Montenegrin Bronze Age hasn't been so much investigated so far. An interesting Polish paper on Velika Gruda site, RISE596 seems a Polish in Montenegro indeed :)

Bugaj, Urszula; Lutovac, Predrag; Bogacki, Miron; Trzeciecki, Maciej; Novak, Mario, Bronze-Age stone tumuli on Planinica Hill, obš. Tuzi, Montenegro. Instytut Archeologii i Etnologii Polskiej Akademii Nauk, Krakow 2013

https://bib.irb.hr/datoteka/728333.15_Bugaj_iin.pdf





Tomenable on athrogenica



http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5652-Ancients-with-DNA-land&p=155709&viewfull=1#post155709

DNA.land (posted on anthrogenica).

Bronze Age Montenegro RISE 595 (mtDNA U5a2d)



Iron Age Montenegro RISE 596 (mtDNA X):



IA Montenegro is not totally bad. His 10% NE Assian is bad but the rest is ok I think. The Baltic LBA Rise598 is also low quality so admixtures might be off too, and I think they are, especially 6% of S Indian and very low Med.


M483824 RISE598
2.52

M836655 RISE596
2.76


Lithuania LBA [908-485 BC] H2a2 R1a-L62>M418


Montenegro IA [?] X1'2'3 -


Population


Population



S-Indian
6.12

S-Indian
-


Baloch
4.2

Baloch
12.42


Caucasian
4.92

Caucasian
-


NE-Euro
69.78

NE-Euro
50.11


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
10.75


Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
2.74

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
8.45

Mediterranean
23.39


SW-Asian
3.73

SW-Asian
-


San
0.05

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
3.33


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
-

W-African
-