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Angela
18-01-17, 19:08
See:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/01/10/1613413114.abstract

"The earliest dates for the West Mediterranean Neolithic indicate that it expanded across 2,500 km in about 300 y. Such a fast spread is held to be mainly due to a demic process driven by dispersal along coastal routes. Here, we model the Neolithic spread in the region by focusing on the role of voyaging to understand better the core elements that produced the observed pattern of dates. We also explore the effect of cultural interaction with Mesolithic populations living along the coast. The simulation study shows that (i) sea travel is required to obtain reasonable predictions, with a minimum sea-travel range of 300 km per generation; (ii) leapfrog coastal dispersals yield the best results (quantitatively and qualitatively); and (iii) interaction with Mesolithic people can assist the spread, but long-range voyaging is still needed to explain the archaeological pattern."

The actual paper is behind a pay wall, unfortunately, as I would like to see more about the interaction between the Mesolithic people and the farmers.

The appendix is the only other thing that's available.
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2017/01/10/1613413114.DCSupplemental/pnas.1613413114.sapp.pdf

bicicleur
19-01-17, 01:20
not much European mesolithic DNA, neither Y nor mt apart maybe from the I2a1b1 in Els Trocs and just a few mtDNA U and U5





Spain
Paternanbidea, Navarra [PAT-1E3, PAT-2E1]
M & F
5700-4700 BC




H
Hervella 2009 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2009);2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012); 2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Paternanbidea, Navarra [PAT-1E5]
inf
5700-4700 BC




H
Hervella 2009 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2009);2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012); 2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Paternanbidea, Navarra [PAT-4E1]
M
5700-4700 BC




I
Hervella 2009 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2009);2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012); 2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Paternanbidea, Navarra [PAT-2E2]
F
5700-4700 BC




K
Hervella 2009 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2009);2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012); 2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Els Trocs [I0409/Troc 1]
F
5311-5218 BC




J1c3
Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015




Spain
Els Trocs [I0412/Troc 5]
M
5310-5206 BC
I2a1b1
L161+, CTS1293+,
N1a1a1
Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015




Spain
Els Trocs [I0413/Troc 7]
F
5303-5204 BC




V
Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015




Spain
Els Trocs [I0410/Troc 3]
M
5178-5066 BC
R1b1c
M415+, M343+, [L754 equivalent: L774/PF6245/YSC277+, PF1144+, V88 eqivalent: PF6376+], M478-, PF6399-, L265-, L150-, M269-, V35-, V69-
T2c1d or T2c1d2
Haak 2015; personal comm Sergey Malyshev, review of Y-DNA raw data; Mathieson 2015




Spain
Els Trocs [I0411/Troc 4]
M
5177-5068 BC
F (xG, I1, I2a, J, L1b2, T, O2b, Q1a2a, Q1b1, R1a1a, R1b1c2)
P135+, F1551-, M450-, S247-, CTS26-, YSC0000228-, M274-, PF5607-, CTS5268-, CTS7749-, L475-, FGC1861-, L449-, V35-
K1a2a
Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015




Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-21, CAS-48, CAS-90, CAS-196]


5120-3880 BC




H
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-70, CAS 216, CAS 254, CAS-258]


5120-3880 BC




H?
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-33, CAS-182, CAS-497]


5120-3880 BC




H
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-173, CAS-222, CAS-341]


5120-3880 BC




H
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-193S, CAS-194]


5120-3880 BC




H
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-148]


5120-3880 BC




U
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-204]


5120-3880 BC




U
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-183]


5120-3880 BC




U
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-517]


5120-3880 BC




U
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-181, CAS-191, CAS-202 ]


5120-3880 BC




K
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-179]


5120-3880 BC




J
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-203]


5120-3880 BC




J
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-180]


5120-3880 BC




T2
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)




Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-257]


5120-3880 BC




X
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)






Cardial
Spain
Can Sadurnı [CSA 29 ]


5475–5305 BC




N*
Gamba 2012 (file:///C:/Users/Jean/OneDrive/Documents/My%20Websites/AncestralJourneys/bibliography.shtml#Gamba2011)


Cardial
Spain
Can Sadurnı [CSA 152223]


5475–5305 BC




K
Gamba 2012 (file:///C:/Users/Jean/OneDrive/Documents/My%20Websites/AncestralJourneys/bibliography.shtml#Gamba2011)


Cardial
Spain
Can Sadurnı [CSA 16]


5475–5305 BC




H
Gamba 2012 (file:///C:/Users/Jean/OneDrive/Documents/My%20Websites/AncestralJourneys/bibliography.shtml#Gamba2011)


Cardial
Spain
Can Sadurnı [CSA 24]


5475–5305 BC




U5
Gamba 2012 (file:///C:/Users/Jean/OneDrive/Documents/My%20Websites/AncestralJourneys/bibliography.shtml#Gamba2011)


Cardial
Spain
Can Sadurnı [CSA 26]


5475–5305 BC




X1
Gamba 2012 (file:///C:/Users/Jean/OneDrive/Documents/My%20Websites/AncestralJourneys/bibliography.shtml#Gamba2011)


Cardial
Spain
Cova Bonica, Vallirana (Barcelona) [CB 13]
F
5470-5360 BC




K1a2a
Olalde 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Olalde2015)


Cardial
Spain
Cova de l'Or (Alicante) [H3C 6]
M
5360-5310 BC




H4a1a
Olalde 2015 (file:///C:/Users/Jean/OneDrive/Documents/My%20Websites/AncestralJourneys/bibliography.shtml#Olalde2015)


Cardial
Portugal
Galeria da Cisterna, Almonda Cave [G 21]
M
5330-5230 BC




H3
Olalde 2015 (file:///C:/Users/Jean/OneDrive/Documents/My%20Websites/AncestralJourneys/bibliography.shtml#Olalde2015)


Cardial
Spain
Chaves [1CH 0102]


5329–4999 BC




K
Gamba 2012 (file:///C:/Users/Jean/OneDrive/Documents/My%20Websites/AncestralJourneys/bibliography.shtml#Gamba2011)


Cardial
Spain
Chaves [2CH 0102]


5329–4999 BC




H
Gamba 2012 (file:///C:/Users/Jean/OneDrive/Documents/My%20Websites/AncestralJourneys/bibliography.shtml#Gamba2011)


Cardial
Spain
Chaves [3CH 01]


5329–4999 BC




H
Gamba 2012 (file:///C:/Users/Jean/OneDrive/Documents/My%20Websites/AncestralJourneys/bibliography.shtml#Gamba2011)


Cardial
Spain
Cova Bonica, Vallirana (Barcelona) [CB 14]
F






X2c
Olalde 2015 (file:///C:/Users/Jean/OneDrive/Documents/My%20Websites/AncestralJourneys/bibliography.shtml#Olalde2015)


Cardial
Spain
Cova de la Sarsa (Valencia) [CS 7675]
M
5321-5227 BC




K1a4a1
Olalde 2015 (file:///C:/Users/Jean/OneDrive/Documents/My%20Websites/AncestralJourneys/bibliography.shtml#Olalde2015)


Cardial
Portugal
Galeria da Cisterna, Almonda Cave [F19]
F
5310-5220 BC




H4a1a
Olalde 2015 (file:///C:/Users/Jean/OneDrive/Documents/My%20Websites/AncestralJourneys/bibliography.shtml#Olalde2015)


Epicardial
Spain
Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 01, 02, and 06]
M
5000 BC
3 * G2a
M287-, P15+, Giv in STR table (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml)
K1a
Lacan 2011b (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lacan2011b)


Epicardial
Spain
Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 03]
M
5000 BC
G2a
M287-, P15+, Giv in STR table (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml)
H3
Lacan 2011b (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lacan2011b)


Epicardial
Spain
Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 04]
F
5000 BC




T2b
Lacan 2011b (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lacan2011b)


Epicardial
Spain
Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 05]
M
5000 BC
G2a
M287-, P15+, Giv in STR table (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml)
T2b
Lacan 2011b (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lacan2011b)


Epicardial
Spain
Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 07]
M
5000 BC
E1b1b1a1b1a
M35.1, V13, Ei in STR table (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml)
U5
Lacan 2011b (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lacan2011b)




Spain
Sant Pau del Camp [6SP 0102]


4250–3700 BC




K
Gamba 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Gamba2012)




Spain
Sant Pau del Camp [26SP 0102]


4250–3700 BC




H20
Gamba 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Gamba2012)




Spain
Sant Pau del Camp [27SP 0102]


4250–3700 BC




N*
Gamba 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Gamba2012)




Italy
Borgo Nuovo, Trentino-South Tyrol


4240-3930 BC




H?
Di Benedetto 2000

bicicleur
19-01-17, 01:24
I like this map (figure 1), it shows how far inland Cardial Ware people went into Spain 5600-5000 BC

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/226946877_Early_Neolithic_Agriculture_in_the_Iberi an_Peninsula







Abstract
The spread of agriculture in the Iberian Peninsula is documented from at least ca. 5600–5500BC, although botanical data are absent or very limited for large areas. Archaeobotanical information shows from the beginning an imported agrarian system with a great diversity of crops: hulled and naked wheats and barleys, legumes such as pea, lentil, fava bean, vetches and grass peas, flax and poppy. This diversity of plants with different requirements, processing and uses, implies that the first farmers quickly imported or acquired a wide range of agrarian knowledge. Regional and inter-site agrarian differences are discussed in relation to factors like ecology, culture, use of the cultivated plants and management of the risk of crop failure. The adoption of farming resulted in significant ecological, economic, dietary, and social changes for the Neolithic people of Iberia.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/226946877_Early_Neolithic_Agriculture_in_the_Iberi an_Peninsula


Els Trocs is also in this area
(near location 1)

apart from Spain there was also spread along the Portuguese coast upto halfway north

Angela
19-01-17, 02:17
I like this map (figure 1), it shows how far inland Cardial Ware people went into Spain 5600-5000 BC

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/226946877_Early_Neolithic_Agriculture_in_the_Iberi an_Peninsula







Abstract
The spread of agriculture in the Iberian Peninsula is documented from at least ca. 5600–5500BC, although botanical data are absent or very limited for large areas. Archaeobotanical information shows from the beginning an imported agrarian system with a great diversity of crops: hulled and naked wheats and barleys, legumes such as pea, lentil, fava bean, vetches and grass peas, flax and poppy. This diversity of plants with different requirements, processing and uses, implies that the first farmers quickly imported or acquired a wide range of agrarian knowledge. Regional and inter-site agrarian differences are discussed in relation to factors like ecology, culture, use of the cultivated plants and management of the risk of crop failure. The adoption of farming resulted in significant ecological, economic, dietary, and social changes for the Neolithic people of Iberia.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/226946877_Early_Neolithic_Agriculture_in_the_Iberi an_Peninsula


Els Trocs is also in this area
(near location 1)

apart from Spain there was also spread along the Portuguese coast upto halfway north

I don't know if you've ever seen this:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/235984936_fig1_Fig-1-Eco-cultural-niche-ECN-predictions-GARP-produced-A-Impressed-Ware-culture

Fire Haired14
19-01-17, 02:55
I know how to get passed paywalls.

Fire Haired14
19-01-17, 02:59
Btw, all the ancient European mtDNA and Y DNA data one would ever want is here....

Ancient Y DNA, mtDNA (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LFxQOJGVd5rh0xQZN58Kpr_V7pBNHn6VprtDO2M7g14/edit)
Haplogroup Frequencies (http://mtdnaatlas.blogspot.com/2016/12/natural-selection-did-it.html)

berun
19-01-17, 11:56
Very useful tables but need some updates now...

Northener
19-01-17, 16:29
It would be nice if the linkages between archeology and the big data dna are more being estahablished. More integrating is needed. Bridging two worlds.......
But may be it's my lack of knowledge.

Open question: in which recent articles/ literature is the connetion between archeology and big dna data perfect?

Angela
19-01-17, 16:38
I'm not sure I understand. For just one example, the spread of the Neolithic in Europe is extremely well documented. It was always known from archaeology and assorted disciplines that the domesticated plants and animals and housing and way of life in general was developed in the Near East. The only question was whether it traveled to Europe through cultural or demic diffusion. Now we know through genetics that it was people who brought the technology.

Genetics is in fact answering some of the questions which archaeology could not answer.

Northener
19-01-17, 17:02
I'm not sure I understand. For just one example, the spread of the Neolithic in Europe is extremely well documented. It was always known from archaeology and assorted disciplines that the domesticated plants and animals and housing and way of life in general was developed in the Near East. The only question was whether it traveled to Europe through cultural or demic diffusion. Now we know through genetics that it was people who brought the technology.

Genetics is in fact answering some of the questions which archaeology could not answer.

I understand the dilemma's and the cultural package vs. the immigration routes.

But sometimes I get the impression that DNA whiz kids with supreme knowledge of archeology and vice versa are rare. You can't describe history and historic devolopments bij spreadsheet. Otherwise some archeologist or historians of pre historic times don't have a notion about the possibilities of DNA data. Or simply ignore it when you only consider the "cultural option". Sometimes alpha vs. beta thinking.

Angela
19-01-17, 17:22
I understand the dilemma's and the cultural package vs. the immigration routes.

But sometimes I get the impression that DNA whiz kids with supreme knowledge of archeology and vice versa are rare. You can't describe history and historic devolopments bij spreadsheet. Otherwise some archeologist or historians of pre historic times don't have a notion about the possibilities of DNA data. Or simply ignore it when you only consider the "cultural option". Sometimes alpha vs. beta thinking.

I very much agree with that. There are indeed a lot of archaeologists who are resistant to the "intrusion" of genetics into their field. On the other hand, there are a lot of population geneticists who are woefully uninformed about archaeology and history. The lack of such knowledge in the "enthusiast" community is at another level entirely.

I think there has been some attempt by the Reich team to harmonize the two, as when David Anthony was a co-author on one of their papers. The problem is that sometimes the findings of genetics contradict conclusions reached by archaeolgists, anthropologists, linguists. etc.

Fire Haired14
19-01-17, 17:28
Very useful tables but need some updates now...

What updates?

Northener
19-01-17, 17:49
I think there has been some attempt by the Reich team to harmonize the two, as when David Anthony was a co-author on one of their papers. The problem is that sometimes the findings of genetics contradict conclusions reached by archaeolgists, anthropologists, linguists. etc.

Basicaly this confrontation could deliver the best kind of research and articles because this stimulates to open some old bubbles.....out of the box.

Northener
19-01-17, 19:16
See:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/01/10/1613413114.abstract

"The earliest dates for the West Mediterranean Neolithic indicate that it expanded across 2,500 km in about 300 y. Such a fast spread is held to be mainly due to a demic process driven by dispersal along coastal routes. Here, we model the Neolithic spread in the region by focusing on the role of voyaging to understand better the core elements that produced the observed pattern of dates. We also explore the effect of cultural interaction with Mesolithic populations living along the coast. The simulation study shows that (i) sea travel is required to obtain reasonable predictions, with a minimum sea-travel range of 300 km per generation; (ii) leapfrog coastal dispersals yield the best results (quantitatively and qualitatively); and (iii) interaction with Mesolithic people can assist the spread, but long-range voyaging is still needed to explain the archaeological pattern."

The actual paper is behind a pay wall, unfortunately, as I would like to see more about the interaction between the Mesolithic people and the farmers.

The appendix is the only other thing that's available.
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2017/01/10/1613413114.DCSupplemental/pnas.1613413114.sapp.pdf


I guess the leapfrog didn't stop at Gibraltar [emoji1111] but went on into the Atlantic coast and up to Southern Scandinavia (K15 Gedmatch Eurogenes).. http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/04/ancient-dna-from-neolithic-sweden.html Bell Beakers did have considerable amount of Atlantic and West Med. But obviously this was already a Funnelbeaker heritage.


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