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Angela
19-01-17, 18:49
It's the New York Times, so maybe some skepticism is in order...

See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/world/europe/germany-afd-alternative-bjorn-hocke.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

Amazing how many evocations of Nazism can be packed into a couple of sentences:

" At a chandelier-lit beer hall on Tuesday evening, the lean blond man’s voice boomed out over a crowd of hundreds — some middle-aged and working-class, but with a contingent of polished young professionals.“The AfD is the last revolutionary, the last peaceful chance for our fatherland,” declared the man, Björn Höcke, referring to the political party Alternative for Germany, and employing a reverential term for Germany (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/germany/index.html?inline=nyt-geo), one of several nationalist buzzwords usually shunned in the country’s politics.
“Jawohl!” a few shouted. “Yes!”
When Mr. Höcke (pronounced HOOK-ay) lamented that “German history is handled as rotten and made to look ridiculous” — a subtle but clear reference to guilt for the Holocaust and other Nazi war crimes — the crowd responded by chanting, “Deutschland, Deutschland.”

Tomenable
25-01-17, 00:41
German AfD is a slightly more leftist version of your Republicans.

Angela
25-01-17, 01:00
You obviously know absolutely nothing about Republicans and what they believe.

Templar
26-01-17, 01:16
Their politicians have been swamping them with immigrants who have increased the crime rate considerably (especially sexual crimes). Whenever anyone says anything against it then they get accused of being racists. A lot of their anger is pretty understandable.

Northener
28-01-17, 22:50
It's the New York Times, so maybe some skepticism is in order...

See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/world/europe/germany-afd-alternative-bjorn-hocke.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

Amazing how many evocations of Nazism can be packed into a couple of sentences:

" At a chandelier-lit beer hall on Tuesday evening, the lean blond man’s voice boomed out over a crowd of hundreds — some middle-aged and working-class, but with a contingent of polished young professionals.“The AfD is the last revolutionary, the last peaceful chance for our fatherland,” declared the man, Björn Höcke, referring to the political party Alternative for Germany, and employing a reverential term for Germany (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/germany/index.html?inline=nyt-geo), one of several nationalist buzzwords usually shunned in the country’s politics.
“Jawohl!” a few shouted. “Yes!”
When Mr. Höcke (pronounced HOOK-ay) lamented that “German history is handled as rotten and made to look ridiculous” — a subtle but clear reference to guilt for the Holocaust and other Nazi war crimes — the crowd responded by chanting, “Deutschland, Deutschland.”




Yes this party could shake the post war political landscape even more than the unification of west and east Germany did. Until recent Germany was one of the most stabile countries of Europe. With two grand old party's the christen democratic CDU and the social democratic SPD, somewhat right and left of the middle. With a small (neo-)liberal FDP. Since the eighties only die Grünen, Green Party, was a new kid on the block. They made a long march trough the institutions. Right of the CDU (and CSU in Bayern) was always a big tabu in German politics. That was the long shadow of the past. Now with the upheaval of Trump, Le Pen, Wilders, Ukip, and a bunch of Eastern European populist or alt right part's this looks like the first time since ww2 that the political landscape of Germany could chance dramatically.....


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DuPidh
28-01-17, 23:20
Germany soon will become a geographical expression. Its no longer an ethnic expression. 25% of its population has been replaced by foreigners. If something its not done soon German ethnicity will be a thing of the past. Imagine right now the majority of children born in Germany are those of foreigners. Now think of the near future of this country.

Sile
29-01-17, 01:29
Yes this party could shake the post war political landscape even more than the unification of west and east Germany did. Until recent Germany was one of the most stabile countries of Europe. With two grand old party's the christen democratic CDU and the social democratic SPD, somewhat right and left of the middle. With a small (neo-)liberal FDP. Since the eighties only die Grünen, Green Party, was a new kid on the block. They made a long march trough the institutions. Right of the CDU (and CSU in Bayern) was always a big tabu in German politics. That was the long shadow of the past. Now with the upheaval of Trump, Le Pen, Wilders, Ukip, and a bunch of Eastern European populist or alt right part's this looks like the first time since ww2 that the political landscape of Germany could chance dramatically.....


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good, its about time that people stop attacking the middleclass via globalization as it is completely wrong. The middle class is the main class in any society.
The west has gone too far left in the last 20 years........socialist left , there is no centre anymore.

too far left you have communism...too far right you have fascism..........they are the same thing ................we need to correct the balance , fix the middle class and have centre type of governments.

Northener
29-01-17, 07:44
good, its about time that people stop attacking the middleclass via globalization as it is completely wrong. The middle class is the main class in any society.
The west has gone too far left in the last 20 years........socialist left , there is no centre anymore.

too far left you have communism...too far right you have fascism..........they are the same thing ................we need to correct the balance , fix the middle class and have centre type of governments.

Too far left!? In Germany? Germany is, at least since ww2, an example of middle class society. With two strong part's around the center. The despair of the middle class results in the upheaval of the populist and/or alt right.....this would cause the dis balance you mention.


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Sile
29-01-17, 08:18
Too far left!? In Germany? Germany is, at least since ww2, an example of middle class society. With two strong part's around the center. The despair of the middle class results in the upheaval of the populist and/or alt right.....this would cause the dis balance you mention.


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Miss Merkel ( an east German from the past with her leftist/socialist views ) has decided upon herself to make all the decisions for the EU .............like, expecting the other EU nations to take the migrants that her germany does not want .
But , it has failed and her leftist views is going against what the people want. They want balance.

if one is not in the centre, then one is either too far left or too far right ..............

Boreas
29-01-17, 08:49
Miss Merkel ( an east German from the past with her leftist/socialist views ) has decided upon herself to make all the decisions for the EU .............like, expecting the other EU nations to take the migrants that her germany does not want .
But , it has failed and her leftist views is going against what the people want. They want balance.

if one is not in the centre, then one is either too far left or too far right ..............

At least, Leftist Germans didn't start 2 World Wars

firetown
29-01-17, 08:57
This is not surprising for those who lived in Germany for a while. This has been brewing underneath the surface long before the current refugee situation.

Sile
29-01-17, 19:27
At least, Leftist Germans didn't start 2 World Wars

I do not recall the germans starting WW1 ..............was it not started from incidents in the balkans

Boreas
29-01-17, 19:40
I do not recall the germans starting WW1 ..............was it not started from incidents in the balkans

The issue was controling South Slavs between Russia and Germanic Austria-Germany pact. Long before the real war, arms race has already started and pacts has been made.

Turks got in the war accidently (Sultan didn't know it), not Germans.

Angela
29-01-17, 20:05
At least, Leftist Germans didn't start 2 World Wars

That's true, but on the other hand many of them were quite happy to have the Soviet Union take over half their country, and in fact collaborated in that effort.

Northener
29-01-17, 20:11
That's true, but on the other hand many of them were quite happy to have the Soviet Union take over half their country, and in fact collaborated in that effort.

With the Sovjet army who entered into Germany I guess no choice. Most people accommodate. Some flied to the west.
Merkel has never been a Soviet or commie adapt. She has a deep Protestant ethic attitude.

At least one of the biggest responsible leaders of the West.....


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Angela
29-01-17, 20:18
With the Sovjet army who entered into Germany I guess no choice. Most people accommodate. Some flied to the west.
Merkel has never been a Soviet or commie adapt. She has a deep Protestant ethic attitude.


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I agree with you about Merkel. As for what happened after the war, there were some true believers in East Germany who were still around, from what I can tell, and then there were, as always in situations like this, the people who accommodate themselves to the current power structure.

Milan.M
29-01-17, 20:27
I do not recall the germans starting WW1 ..............was it not started from incidents in the balkans
Was not the Austrians (Central powers) that were occupying South Slavic lands and expanding? assasination of the their archduke was just pretext,this war was previously planned by "great powers" of it's time for control of lands.

Angela
29-01-17, 21:26
At least, Leftist Germans didn't start 2 World Wars

No, they didn't Boreas. On the other hand, they were perfectly willing to collaborate with a foreign power in the take over of their country, the imprisonment of objectors, and on and on.

Neither the extreme right nor the extreme left in Europe have a very good track record.

bicicleur
29-01-17, 21:34
Was not the Austrians (Central powers) that were occupying South Slavic lands and expanding? assasination of the their archduke was just pretext,this war was previously planned by "great powers" of it's time for control of lands.

it was the time of nationalism all over Europe

when they heared the Germans had invaded France, people were dancing in the streets in Paris, finaly they would have a chance to defeat Germany and take revenge for 1870 ..
little did they suspect it would take 4 years of suffering and millions of deaths


my grandfather, he was not happy with that, at that time there was 3 year compulsory military service in Belgium, which he had begun in 1911 ..

bicicleur
29-01-17, 21:47
With the Sovjet army who entered into Germany I guess no choice. Most people accommodate. Some flied to the west.

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yes, but couldn't you tell the same about the rise of Hitler then ?

Germany was in a terrible state and most Germans were desperate
they didn't believe the Weimar republic could solve the problems and they felt abandonned by the international community
finally they felt they had to chose between extreme left and extreme right

bicicleur
29-01-17, 21:54
Merkel has never been a Soviet or commie adapt. She has a deep Protestant ethic attitude.

At least one of the biggest responsible leaders of the West.....


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first saying Germany can accomodate and help all refugees
and then make a pact with Erdogan to stop the refugees

sorry, for me this lady has lost all credibility

she should say or discuss what Germany can do and cannot do
instead of playing with high moral principles

Boreas
29-01-17, 22:24
No, they didn't Boreas. On the other hand, they were perfectly willing to collaborate with a foreign power in the take over of their country, the imprisonment of objectors, and on and on.

Neither the extreme right nor the extreme left in Europe have a very good track record.


Sorry Angela, I don't think I get it. Should I disapporove Leftist Germans who collaborate with foreign powers against elected(!) Nazi goverment ?


Far right and far left are both dangerous.

It is like burning church-mosques under the Atheist Goverment or closing minority religious building under the religious regime.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Increased far right won't make Europe more centrid. It is not a math. Far left+far right won't equal 0, stable centred goverment. It means more fight.

Northener
29-01-17, 22:42
first saying Germany can accomodate and help all refugees
and then make a pact with Erdogan to stop the refugees

sorry, for me this lady has lost all credibility

she should say or discuss what Germany can do and cannot do
instead of playing with high moral principles

This lady doesn't just follow the opinion polls, or exploits dispair for own opportunistic reasons.
That's doesn't rule out miscalculation though.
But i like leaders who take their responsibility, who act with conscience....
Certainly politics is not all about moral....but.....we need like someone said about Helmut Schmidt the great old German chancellor , 'politik mit klarheit und moral' politics with clarity and moral...
There are enough opportunistic wolves nowadays!

Yetos
29-01-17, 22:44
personally,I believe that all parties, theories, movements make a circle,

politics are like α pendulum that moves from one side to the other and back,

I am not afraid patriotic parties or movements,
I am afraid the hate and the revenge of some politicians,
and ultra edges of the axis that politics should move,



consider politics as a spring,
the more you push it to far edge left,
the more right will go when the energy is released,
the more right you pushed it,
the energy that is stored will push it to far left,

for that i must admit that I am not afraid any patriotic or conservative isolation Deutsch movememnt or party,
but I am afraid unemployed, and hopeless youth, who in despair, turn to 4rd Reich NAZI dream,
with hearts full of hate,
sometimes the despair when we are young has all driven us to wrong choices,
and hate sprung for our lost dreams,
but we must find the correct reason that ruined our youth,
and not explode to more easiest theories and solutions,

PS
I my shelf grew at a high touristic area, and had and have connections with many foreigners,
and I travel a lot,
but lately I catch my shelf to feel fear and anger, light form Xenophobia has started to occupy me,
but the reason is not the stranger as stranger, the reason is that I run out bussiness almost before 10 due to some bastards bankers and politicians,
and the few jobs left are paid badly and no insurance,
I mean the Xenos is not my enemy many times,
But my people, the ones I vote, and the state that did not worked as should,

to analyze it more,
the lately laws at my country and EU are very strange,
for example when my daughter turns over 18 and I accomodate her at house I will be taxated more,
but if I kick my daughter out of house, turn her to a homeless,
and take a 4 persons family of 'irregullar immigrants, at her room I will be granded 700 E each month non taxated,

and now reader tell me, such stupid laws, what emotions cause, and where they drive me?
madness??

Northener
29-01-17, 22:48
yes, but couldn't you tell the same about the rise of Hitler then ?

Germany was in a terrible state and most Germans were desperate
they didn't believe the Weimar republic could solve the problems and they felt abandonned by the international community
finally they felt they had to chose between extreme left and extreme right

No there is a difference the Soviet rule was basically due to external factors, Hitler was an internal choice not forced upon. Weimar didn't automatically lead tot Hitler. Otherwise we fall into some kind of fatalistic , kind of faith, view on history. I don't agree with that.

LABERIA
29-01-17, 22:54
Was not the Austrians (Central powers) that were occupying South Slavic lands and expanding? assasination of the their archduke was just pretext,this war was previously planned by "great powers" of it's time for control of lands.

But Archduke Ferdinand was not killed by South Slavs, but from serbs terrorist. South slavs are not only the serbs.

Angela
29-01-17, 23:24
No there is a difference the Soviet rule was basically due to external factors, Hitler was an internal choice not forced upon. Weimar didn't automatically lead tot Hitler. Otherwise we fall into some kind of fatalistic , kind of faith, view on history. I don't agree with that.

I couldn't agree more. (Sorry I have no more thumbs up to award today.) Countries make choices, as Germany did with Hitler and Italy did earlier with Mussolini. Then they have to live with the consequences.

Milan.M
29-01-17, 23:39
But Archduke Ferdinand was not killed by South Slavs, but from serbs terrorist. South slavs are not only the serbs.
Gavrilo(Bosnian Serb) had more luck in killing him,the Bosnian Muslim was first to attack and saw him but had no chance to throw his bomb cause of police.The organization Young Bosnia was from people of mixed origin or rather faith.If you know the division in this nationalities.

"The political union of the Yugoslavs [..] was my basic idea [..] I am a Yugoslav nationalist, aiming for the unification of all Yugoslavs, and I do not care what form of state, but it must be free from Austria"
-Gavrilo Princip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavrilo_Princip) during his trial.

He was 18 years old.

Many different ideas were around regardless how we today like to interpret it.Also your hatred toward the Serbs is quite visible.

LABERIA
29-01-17, 23:51
Gavrilo(Bosnian Serb) had more luck in killing him,the Bosnian Muslim was first to attack and saw him but had no chance to throw his bomb cause of police.The organization Young Bosnia was from people of mixed origin or rather faith.If you know the division in this nationalities.

"The political union of the Yugoslavs [..] was my basic idea [..] I am a Yugoslav nationalist, aiming for the unification of all Yugoslavs, and I do not care what form of state, but it must be free from Austria"
-Gavrilo Princip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavrilo_Princip) during his trial.

Many different ideas were around regardless how we today like to interpret it.
Gavrilo Princip was a poor villager of 19 years, brainwashed from the secret services of serbia, sick with tuberculosis. Have a look carefully who were the other members of the team.

Also your hatred toward the Serbs is quite visible in this forum.
This is totally unrelated with this topic and is a slander. Well, it`s your style, what can we do?

Milan.M
29-01-17, 23:57
Gavrilo Princip was a poor villager of 19 years, brainwashed from the secret services of serbia, sick with tuberculosis. Have a look carefully who were the other members of the team.

This is totally unrelated with this topic and is a slander. Well, it`s your style, what can we do?
Other then arguing here on the forum and promoting Albanian nationalism i don't see anything else from you,yesterday were Greeks or Romei? today Serbs,prior than that Macedonians,i don't know how admins tolerate you yet,and not ban you from the forum.

LABERIA
30-01-17, 00:01
Other then arguing here on the forum and promoting Albanian nationalism i don't see anything else from you,yesterday were Greeks or Romei? today Serbs,prior than that Macedonians,i don't know how admins tolerate you yet,and not ban you from the forum.
This forum is Balkan nationalist free nowadays and is good,pitty that on most this anthropology forums nationalists from the Balkans are most frequent.
Can you bring an example from my posts where i promote Albanian nationalism? The problem is that you are a low level poster and a liar. Now please stay on topic and stop with this ad homminem attacks. There are other places where you can perform your talent as a trooll, it`s the only thing you know to do.

Milan.M
30-01-17, 00:24
Can you bring an example from my posts where i promote Albanian nationalism? The problem is that you are a low level poster an a liar. Now please stay on topic and stop with this ad homminem attacks. There are other places where you can perform your talent as a trooll, it`s the only thing you know to do.
I replied that Austrian occupation of Bosnia was not justifiable,and why i care about this,do not reply on my post anymore i don't like discussion with you.

Yes it is terrorist attack which i do not approve but what led to it,was Serbian occupation on Albania good for you?
Or because you achieved your independence through Austria later you show your sympathy?


But Archduke Ferdinand was not killed by South Slavs, but from serbs terrorist. South slavs are not only the serbs.

LABERIA
30-01-17, 00:28
I replied that Austrian occupation of Bosnia was not justifiable,and why i care about this,do not reply on my post anymore i don't like discussion with you.

Yes it is terrorist attack which i do not approve but what led to it,was Serbian occupation on Albania good for you?

If you don't like to discuss with me why you continue with a question? You have not the intelligence to discuss with me. First of all read what you post here, read the link of wiki.

Milan.M
30-01-17, 00:36
If you don't like to discuss with me why you continue with a question? You have not the intelligence to discuss with me. First of all read what you post here, read the link of wiki.
That was good example for you on your reply, and get lost from my posts once and forever i'll add you on ignore list if the admins don't want to ban you.
You are a coward and loser with no life,full of hatred.

LABERIA
30-01-17, 00:41
That was good example for you on your reply, and get lost from my posts once and forever i'll add you on ignore list if the admins don't want to ban you.
You are a coward and loser with no life,full of hatred.

At least read what you post here, really it's not serious when someone post something that he has never read before. Your link is a prove that this attack was committed by a terrorist group. Do you realise what you have posted?

LABERIA
30-01-17, 01:01
The attack against Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand_of_Austria), is perhaps the first kamikaze terrorist attack in European history. Those who organized this attack, were aware that after this event, to Austria remained two options:
1) The empire accepted the humiliation occurred from this small kingdom of serbia.
2) The Empire decided to attack this kingdom.
The Austrians opted for a third solution, not belligerent. They asked to the serbian authorities, the permission that an Austrian commission investigated this crime. The serbian authorities did not accepted this compromise that could eliminate the possibility of a war.
Since the first option was unacceptable, remained the second.
Thus, the direct responsibility for the WWI, falls on serbia and those who were behind.

LeBrok
30-01-17, 01:23
That was good example for you on your reply, and get lost from my posts once and forever i'll add you on ignore list if the admins don't want to ban you.
You are a coward and loser with no life,full of hatred.If you can't hold your nerves in check don't discuss emotional subjects. I think you should apologies to Laberia.

Milan.M
30-01-17, 01:49
If you can't hold your nerves in check don't discuss emotional subjects. I think you should apologies to Laberia.
Damn :D
You and laberia can apologize me,if i even accept that.
Has nothing to do with nerves but that suit him perfectly,you too perhaps,i'm out of this forum anyway.
Don't pick sides as admin or pretend you don't see what's going on,on other threads too.
Maciamo should replace you from here lol
The "admins" here are chasing people away rather then being "advisors" as it is written there far from it.

LeBrok
30-01-17, 04:25
Damn :D
You and laberia can apologize me,if i even accept that.
Has nothing to do with nerves but that suit him perfectly,you too perhaps,i'm out of this forum anyway.
Don't pick sides as admin or pretend you don't see what's going on,on other threads too.
Maciamo should replace you from here lol
The "admins" here are chasing people away rather then being "advisors" as it is written there far from it.We have advised you many times, and our effort was wasted, as you still cling to your same old crazy ideas.

bicicleur
30-01-17, 09:26
This lady doesn't just follow the opinion polls, or exploits dispair for own opportunistic reasons.
That's doesn't rule out miscalculation though.
But i like leaders who take their responsibility, who act with conscience....
Certainly politics is not all about moral....but.....we need like someone said about Helmut Schmidt the great old German chancellor , 'politik mit klarheit und moral' politics with clarity and moral...
There are enough opportunistic wolves nowadays!

that is what I was saying
Merkel does not provide clarity
she hides behind moral principles in order to avoid all discussion

by making a pact with Erdogan she proves that her policies don't work
she should have the courage to discuss moral principles versus reality in Germany and come to a policy that does work
instead she is twisting her own words

Taranis
30-01-17, 14:35
It's the New York Times, so maybe some skepticism is in order...

See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/world/europe/germany-afd-alternative-bjorn-hocke.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

Amazing how many evocations of Nazism can be packed into a couple of sentences:

" At a chandelier-lit beer hall on Tuesday evening, the lean blond man’s voice boomed out over a crowd of hundreds — some middle-aged and working-class, but with a contingent of polished young professionals.“The AfD is the last revolutionary, the last peaceful chance for our fatherland,” declared the man, Björn Höcke, referring to the political party Alternative for Germany, and employing a reverential term for Germany (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/germany/index.html?inline=nyt-geo), one of several nationalist buzzwords usually shunned in the country’s politics.
“Jawohl!” a few shouted. “Yes!”
When Mr. Höcke (pronounced HOOK-ay) lamented that “German history is handled as rotten and made to look ridiculous” — a subtle but clear reference to guilt for the Holocaust and other Nazi war crimes — the crowd responded by chanting, “Deutschland, Deutschland.”




Two issues:

First, in a very New York Times matter, the name "Höcke" does not actually rhyme with "Hook-ay": the ö is about the same sound as with English "learn", "bird" and "Germany". The e is about the same sound as "comma", "bitter".

The AfD are not actually pro-Germany. Even their name is an oxymoron. How can it be an alternative for Germany to withdraw from the EU, kick out foreigners and hide under nationalist isolationism? If they ever come to power, our economy is going to implode. The EU (or rather, the entity that has become the EU by today) has given us decades of peace, stability and economic prosperity, and they want to destroy all of this. Not because they want a better alternative, but because they're plain and simple Shills For Putin.

Groninger
31-01-17, 15:50
It is a leader's task to defend his nation's interests. Therefore Merkel is a terrible leader. She puts the interests of Middle Easterners over those of her own people. That is betrayal, no matter what moral platitudes she uses to defend her behaviour. She resembles an attorney in a lawsuit who suddenly starts to advocate for other party while still being paid by the original client. By opening the gates to an invading army, Merkel has become a mortal enemy of the German people. The supportes of the so-called "Far-Right" are just folks with a healthy sense of self-preservation who don't enjoy being replaced by strangers.

MarkoZ
31-01-17, 16:56
By opening the gates to an invading army, Merkel has become a mortal enemy of the German people.

Let's not get carried away.

Sile
01-02-17, 20:28
I agree that Merkel has "created" the neo-Nazi far right due to her immigration policies ...............only a reversal of the immigration issues is the only way I can see as a demise of these neo-nazi

right wingers will detest these neo-nazi ONLY when these immigrants are finalised ...............so, neo-nazi currently have a function

ngc598
18-02-17, 20:51
Fact check:
Since Merkel's administration Germany has compared to the other EU nations ...
the 6th position of the old (non-ex-Iron-curtain) countries in average annual GDP growth
the 4h position in purchasing power
the 1st position in percentage of employed
the last position in percentage of unemployed.
Really, Merkel is definitely ruthless in working against her peoples' interests!

Fact check 2:
In the European elections 2014 the AfD got a third of their votes from the upper fifth people of income (entrepreneurs).
In 2015, when Germany received a million refugees, the AfD had fallen from over 10% to just above 5% in the regional elections.
In the elections of 2016 most of their gain was caused by workers and jobless (failure of the SPD politics, about 30% of their clientel voted AfD).

There is high volatility and very different reasons for voting AfD. Immigrants are only a part of the calc.
AfD gets their votees from...
CDU/CSU - not chauvinist enough anymore (that's not the same as xenophobic - more "Germany First" = envy society)
SPD - workers and jobless feel let down by them
FDP - liberals who want less social matters in their party
die Linke - especially in Eastern Germany, dislike the immigrant-positive politics of the lefties.
Altogether the AfD is a collecting basin for people who don't/can't get enough.

Angela
18-02-17, 21:41
Well, if we're going to talk about fact checking, it seems I was right to show at least some skepticism about the claims of mass sexual mayhem by refugees or illegals during those celebrations in Germany.

https://www.thelocal.de/20170214/mass-sexual-assaults-by-refugees-in-frankfurt-completely-made-up

This is why you have to take all media reports nowadays with a huge grain of salt. Even the ones who are trying to present actual facts and aren't shilling for one side or the other don't check their sources.

We've had the same thing here with most of the cases involving cop shootings.

You have to be very cautious.

ngc598
18-02-17, 22:56
We are in the postfactual era already for a long time. The faster news move around the world the less time journalists have to check the facts. You won't make a fortune in the media-biz if you are the 75th who publishes the particular news. You have to be one of the first.

If you want only facts just skip the news. You won't miss much, rarely anything worth recalling, except for coffee pause talk.

Just checked the criminal statistics of Germany 2015 (the 2016 one isn't pulished yet). The sexual violence crimes against women decreased almost 2% compared to the year before, overall the number of crimes decreased as well, if you subtract the immigration law related crimes which tripled that year (no surprise with that high amount of refugees finding their way to Germany). So, no reason to make a drama out of it, just because some crimes got much attention.

bicicleur
18-02-17, 23:03
Well, if we're going to talk about fact checking, it seems I was right to show at least some skepticism about the claims of mass sexual mayhem by refugees or illegals during those celebrations in Germany.

https://www.thelocal.de/20170214/mass-sexual-assaults-by-refugees-in-frankfurt-completely-made-up

This is why you have to take all media reports nowadays with a huge grain of salt. Even the ones who are trying to present actual facts and aren't shilling for one side or the other don't check their sources.

We've had the same thing here with most of the cases involving cop shootings.

You have to be very cautious.

comm on Angela, you should now better
it's not because 2 people made some false claims that other facts like the cologne new years eve rape never happened
and where are the apologies of the shameless politicians who at first denied something happened that night ?

you're right though not to trust the media
but the worst thing you can do, if you want to stop people from voting for the AfD is to go in denial and say all the problems with immigrants are just made up

ngc598
19-02-17, 15:49
it's not because 2 people made some false claims that other facts like the cologne new years eve rape never happened
and where are the apologies of the shameless politicians who at first denied something happened that night ?
I assume you mean first of all the Cologne Mayor Henriette Reker. But I beg to differ in this whole case, things are not so simple. She was stabbed during her election campaign ten weeks before the event and was inaugurated only two weeks before New Year. She is an independent candidate so no political party behind her with their network. The first press releases of the police didn't mention anything about riots, they described everything as "jolly atmosphere - festivities mostly peaceful". Only slice by slice the police disclosed the results of their investigations, knowing the shattering effect of false accusations. The regional home ministery requested further that they skip mentioning rapes by asylum seeking people, again keeping unproved accusations back.

In effect Reker got the knowledge of the full extent of the riots no less than a week after the event. Then she was tricked by the media. They asked her what she would advise women to do to avoid such situations and she quoted an existing communal guideline for safety during partying. The media quoted her without the question they asked, and accused her of victim blaming. I have a clear opinion about who is to call shameless here.

There are a few things that she as a 'been never before politician' has to learn:
- Talk-talk-talk, but never tell something to the media.
- Shut the f... up as long as investigations are not finished.


but the worst thing you can do, if you want to stop people from voting for the AfD is to go in denial and say all the problems with immigrants are just made up
I don't think there was ever a denial. You just don't tell around things that are not proved, especially in delicate matters. Facts were poor, despite a great amount of people with smartphones there was not much video material good enough to prove crimes. There was a lot of skepticism at first, assuming that this may have been made up by right wing organizations like Pegida or AfD. It took a couple of weeks to see the full extent of the events. Add proved fake accusations and nobody knows what's true or not.

The real problem with all this is the lack of knowledge about customs and (sometimes bad) habits of people migrating into Germany. Politics and authorities didn't know enough about this so they were completely unprepared. That's a big mistake, but it's not a reason to rebuke the whole refugee politics.

Seanp
21-02-17, 12:21
In a nutshell when people face with new problems and it's source is external by origin then new aspects of ideas are needed in order to solve it's root problem.
In this case the immigration -- Antithesis will be to prevent migration and the actual politic can't solute this so more people seek alternative political parties for a possible synthesis.

ngc598
21-02-17, 16:33
In a nutshell when people face with new problems and it's source is external by origin then new aspects of ideas are needed in order to solve it's root problem.
In this case the immigration -- Antithesis will be to prevent migration and the actual politic can't solute this so more people seek alternative political parties for a possible synthesis.
Pretty much hammer hits nail.

The whole situation looks like...
Established political party meets new problem.
Party tries to solve it with old methods.
Method fails.
People seek alternative party to solve problems.
Alternative party promises to solve with even older recipes.
People run to alternative party.
God beware...

firetown
23-02-17, 13:01
I agree that Merkel has "created" the neo-Nazi far right due to her immigration policies ...............only a reversal of the immigration issues is the only way I can see as a demise of these neo-nazi

right wingers will detest these neo-nazi ONLY when these immigrants are finalised ...............so, neo-nazi currently have a function

No. Neo nazis or nazis do not and never did have a function.

Fein
19-08-18, 10:19
AfD is just an option for people who do not like to vote for Merkel anymore. I do not see them as far right. Or maybe my definition of far right is wrong ... :laughing: