PDA

View Full Version : GEDmatch kits of Bell Beaker men with R1b-DF27 & R1b-U152



Tomenable
25-01-17, 03:05
This one:


I0806 Bell Beaker, Quedlinburg, Germany (2431-2150 BC)
Y-DNA Haplogroup: R1b1a1a2a1a2a-DF27
GEDmatch Kit Number: T253390


And this:


RISE563 Bell Beaker, Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany
Y-DNA Haplogroup: R1b1a1a2a1a2b-U152
GEDmatch Kit Number: T644357


=====================================


Some autosomal DNA comparison of my results and I0806:


Ancient Eurasia K6:


1) I0806, Bell Beaker (haplogroup: R1b-DF27):


Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 49.45
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 25.74
3 Natufian 24.81


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Steppe_MLBA 7.35
2 Estonian 8.33
3 Lithuanian 8.5


2) Tomenable, Polish (haplogroup: R1b-DF27):


Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.79
2 Natufian 34.21
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.69
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1
5 East_Asian 0.31


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Ukrainian 2.07
2 Norwegian 2.41
3 Czech 2.78


Eurasia K10 CHG:


1) I0806, Bell Beaker (haplogroup: R1b-DF27):


Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 WHG 38.43
2 EHG 29.66
3 Anatolian_Farmers 18.55
4 CHG 13.37


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Icelandic 15.46
2 Norwegian 15.86
3 Ukrainian 15.99


2) Tomenable, Polish (haplogroup: R1b-DF27):


Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 WHG 41.56
2 CHG 21.71
3 EHG 16.18
4 Anatolian_Farmers 15.25
5 SW_Asian 4.34
6 Amerindian 0.77
7 Papuan 0.18


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Czech 4.03
2 Scottish 4.04
3 Ukrainian 4.36

LeBrok
25-01-17, 03:09
Hey Tomenable, is there a chance someone can fix Karelian kit on GedMatch?

Tomenable
25-01-17, 03:13
Hey Tomenable, is there a chance someone can fix Karelian kit on GedMatch?Karelian EHG? I think I can try to upload that kit.

New Englander
25-01-17, 03:42
Ran a 1 on 1 comparison between T644357 and I. Figured he could be a direct ancestor seeing how we are U152, but we had no matching segments.

Tomenable
25-01-17, 04:01
Interesting that those Central European Beakers were pretty much North-Eastern European genetically.

I0806 (Bell Beaker man with R1b-DF27 haplogroup from Germany, dated to years 2431-2150 BC) resembles modern Eastern Europeans and Scandinavians in terms of autosomal DNA. He is also close to Steppe_MLBA (Middle-Late Bronze Age Steppe, so Post-Yamnaya cultures such as Andronovo and Sintashta - but those two cultures were dominated by R1a-Z93).


Ran a 1 on 1 comparison between T644357 and I. Figured he could be a direct ancestor seeing how we are U152, but we had no matching segments.Maybe he lived so long ago that you don't have any long enough matching segments. It does not mean that you don't have matching segments which are shorter than 3 cM. But 1 on 1 comparison only shows segments longer than 3 cM.

I also don't have matches >3 cM with T253390, even though he could be ancestral to many DF27 men.

LeBrok
25-01-17, 04:01
Karelian EHG? I think I can try to upload that kit. Thanks. It was under M652848, but it can't be found anymore by the program. How about Otzi?

LeBrok
25-01-17, 05:26
The second R1b-U152 is most similar to Corded from Estonia.




T644357
RISE563 R1b-U152

M913021
Rise00


Germany, Osterhofen-Altenmarkt
Bell Beaker

Corded Estonia


Run time
6.24

Run time
8.05


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
13.69

Baloch
14.27


Caucasian
0.58

Caucasian
-


NE-Euro
60.74

NE-Euro
59.09


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
0.8


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
-

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
23.18

Mediterranean
25.26


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
1.8

W-African
0.5



Compared to other Corded and Beaker they completely miss Caucasian admixture. Perhaps it is accidental and due to not top notch sample quality? Though if they have some it is not much, still low. They have very low admixture with Iranian and Anatolian farmer.

Unetice one is very close too:


M453254 RISE154


Unetice EBA Poland [1925-1765 BC] K1a4a1 -


Run Time
4.06


S-Indian
-


Baloch
14.46


Caucasian
4.05


NE-Euro
53.71


SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-


American
0.96


Beringian
-


Mediterranean
26.58


SW-Asian
-


San
-


E-African
0.2


Pygmy
-


W-African
-

LeBrok
25-01-17, 05:48
The first on R1b DF27 matches more Late Neolithic/Bell beaker guys. They definitaly have more neolithic farmer admixtures but not a lot more. Some elevated Med and Caucasian when compared to CW.



Bell Beaker








T253390
I0806 Rib-DF27

M671253

M107790


Germany, Quedlinburg
2431-2150BC

Nordic LN, Rise 71

Germany LN


Run time
4.05

Run Time
4.64

Run time
11.67


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
1.28


Baloch
13.34

Baloch
9.29

Baloch
11.84


Caucasian
9.25

Caucasian
10.55

Caucasian
6.75


NE-Euro
49.82

NE-Euro
51.89

NE-Euro
49.39


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
-

American
-

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
27.41

Mediterranean
27.34

Mediterranean
30.33


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
0.22

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.17

W-African
0.7

W-African
0.37

Fire Haired14
25-01-17, 06:28
The R1b-L21 BA Irishmen and the Rb-U106 Late Neolithic Swede were similar to Srubnaya and Corded Ware aswell. They all had more Steppe ancestry than any modern Europeans. It just shows R1b-L151 is from the Steppe and was still mostly Steppe when it landed on the Western and Northern edges of Europe.

berun
25-01-17, 11:46
# Population Percent
1 WHG 38.43
2 EHG 29.66
3 Anatolian_Farmers 18.55
4 CHG 13.37

A typical Yamnayan guy, uh?

By the way, his Neolithic source would be quite unique being 2/3 WHG and 1/3 Anatolian...

Tomenable
25-01-17, 16:31
By the way, his Neolithic source would be quite unique being 2/3 WHG and 1/3 Anatolian...In Eastern Europe some pockets of ~100% WHG people existed even until 1750 BC (Narva culture). Maybe Indo-Europeans, while moving from the Steppe, mixed with those last pure WHGs. Maybe this explains why I2 and I1 haplogroups flourished in Bronze Age Europe.

Perhaps a lot of WHG admixture in Western Europe today, is not from local WHGs, but from Baltic Sea region WHGs.

Kunda culture and Narva culture, despite being Eastern European, were ~100% WHG with no any EHG nor EEF.

MarkoZ
25-01-17, 17:14
The question is whether Eastern Europe was the only place where European hunters persisted. Didn't Alentoft et al. show that Basques had elevated Mesolithic ancestry as well?

Tomenable
25-01-17, 17:21
In calculators which use ancient components, Bell Beaker man I0806 plots maybe even to the east of modern Poles. See for example how much of ANE and EHG that Beaker man has. He has more ANE and EHG than I do.

But in Eurogenes K36, I0806 scores a lot of "Iberian" and "Basque". These are modern components. Probably the reason why he scores them, is that modern Iberians are descended from men like him. But modern Iberians are only partially descended from men like I0806. They are mostly Neolithic EEF-descended.

This is why in calculators which use ancient components (like WHG, ANE, EEF, EHG) Central European Bell Beaker men plot closer to modern Northern/Eastern Europeans, who have similar proportions of these components to Bell Beakers. But in calculators which use modern components, shaped by recent genetic drift, Bell Beakers plot more to the west, because Beaker population contributed more ancestry to ancestors of modern Western Europeans.

=============

Eurogenes K36:

1) I0806 (haplogroup R1b-DF27):

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 4.85
Central_African -
Central_Euro 1.69
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan -
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 16.01
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 7.57
Fennoscandian -
French 9.96
Iberian 22.70
Indo-Chinese -
Italian -
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 9.40
North_Caucasian 6.59
North_Sea 21.24
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -

2) Tomenable (haplogroup R1b-DF27):

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 0.91
Central_African -
Central_Euro 9.80
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 8.54
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 22.87
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 13.99
Fennoscandian 9.32
French 4.93
Iberian 0.39
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 5.96
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 8.14
North_Caucasian 2.15
North_Sea 11.81
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 1.20


The question is whether Eastern Europe was the only place where European hunters persisted. Didn't Alentoft et al. show that Basques had elevated Mesolithic ancestry as well?IIRC,in this paper about ancient mtDNA from Iberia, they write that in some regions of Neolithic, Copper and Bronze Age Iberia, there were indeed elevated levels of Mesolithic mtDNA haplogroups:

https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de/theses/frontdoor.php?source_opus=100000815&la=en

https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de/theses/volltexte/2016/100000815/pdf/100000815.pdf

berun
25-01-17, 18:11
In Eastern Europe some pockets of ~100% WHG people existed even until 1750 BC (Narva culture). Maybe Indo-Europeans, while moving from the Steppe, mixed with those last pure WHGs. Maybe this explains why I2 and I1 haplogroups flourished in Bronze Age Europe.

Perhaps a lot of WHG admixture in Western Europe today, is not from local WHGs, but from Baltic Sea region WHGs.

Kunda culture and Narva culture, despite being Eastern European, were ~100% WHG with no any EHG nor EEF.

Narva is an example, also the Pitted Ware in Scandinavia lasted long, and there were in such dates HG in Central Germany also... what we could find in the Atlantic (Portugal, France, UK) with its maritime resources so?

So Western Yamnayans traveled northwards, mixed with Narvans to get the high WHG, and then went westwards till Germany, leaving scanty traces of R1b in the Baltics and in the Steppes. What a plot...

Aaron1981
25-01-17, 20:11
^Actually, Russian results are heavily biased to the NW of the country which is rich in R1a ,N1c and I2-M423. The steppes don't yield large populations in modern day. There's a lot of evidence pointing to M269+ spreading from the steppes. I'm not sure how you can actually refute this evidence? I guess your suggestion is that ....is that the steppes were populated from the Pyrenee mountains? We were laughing about it 15 years ago, we're still laughing today.

MarkoZ
25-01-17, 20:39
^Actually, Russian results are heavily biased to the NW of the country which is rich in R1a ,N1c and I2-M423. The steppes don't yield large populations in modern day. There's a lot of evidence pointing to M269+ spreading from the steppes. I'm not sure how you can actually refute this evidence? I guess your suggestion is that ....is that the steppes were populated from the Pyrenee mountains? We were laughing about it 15 years ago, we're still laughing today.

That's a rather odd interpretation of what berun said.

LeBrok
25-01-17, 21:46
Tomenable, what about Poltavka I0432 this R1a Z94 guy? Could be interesting if he matches autosomal of the rest guys who are R1b.

LeBrok
25-01-17, 22:25
Tomenable, what about Poltavka I0432 this R1a Z94 guy? Could be interesting if he matches autosomal of the rest guys who are R1b.
I think I found him M630274.

Very interesting R1a guy look more like WHG with some Baloch added. A very old mix of WHG and EHG. This R1a have 20% of Med admixture like normal WHG, but with Baloch like a normal EHG. It doesn't look like these guys mixed since LGM. Anyway. These are 3 distinct h-gs. First one is Hungarian WHG KO1, second the R1a Z93 from Samara, and 3rd, is a mixture of similar genomes of 3 EHG from Samara, R1b and R1a mixture. Typical EHG doesn't have Med, and typical WHG doesn't have Baloch.



M325047
KO1

M630274
I0432

M737081


Hungarian, h-g
7.7 kya

Samara Poltavka outlier R1a-M417>Z93
2925-2536 BC

Kvalinsk HG (I0122+I0124+I0433)


Run time
9.43

Run time
7.79

Run time
8.15


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
-

Baloch
14.7

Baloch
20.2


Caucasian
-

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
-


NE-Euro
80.37

NE-Euro
63.14

NE-Euro
71.08


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
0.53

Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
-

American
-

American
6.89


Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
1.7


Mediterranean
18.59

Mediterranean
22.15

Mediterranean
-


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
0.5

W-African
-

W-African
0.13




Where is this middle fellow coming from? I guess it has to be east off Samara region. I'm guessing that he needs to be from somewhere from between WHG and EHG. Maybe Central Ukraine, West Yamnaya? UHG, Ukrainian Hunter Gatherer. Or from farther north like Belarus/East Russia?

We need to check the Karelian HG guy to see how he looked?

LeBrok
25-01-17, 23:11
Same "guy" pops up in Estonia 1 thousand years later in CW. With maybe a tiny touch of EEF farmer in it.


M630274
I0432

M913021
Rise00


Samara Poltavka outlier R1a-M417>Z93
2925-2536 BC
Corded Estonia
4 kya


Run time
7.79

Run Time
8.05


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-


Baloch
14.7

Baloch
14.27


Caucasian
-

Caucasian
-


NE-Euro
63.14

NE-Euro
59.09


SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-


Siberian
-

Siberian
0.8


NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-


Papuan
-

Papuan
-


American
-

American
-


Beringian
-

Beringian
-


Mediterranean
22.15

Mediterranean
25.26


SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-


San
-

San
-


E-African
-

E-African
-


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-


W-African
-

W-African
0.5

halfalp
26-01-17, 21:25
I think you guy are obviously too much focus on y-dna haplogroups and not enough on mtdna haplogroups, but women are the matrice of all, Narva Culture shows typical mtdna haplogroups U5b of south-west europe ( france ), this can explain the large WHG admixture in baltic pockets. I also think that hunters of europe WHG are underestimate in there economic and genetic exchanges relation with eastern europe. As for Bell Beaker, given that the pottery was a " fashion phenomena " a lot of people with different admixture can be carrier of.

berun
26-01-17, 23:46
^Actually, Russian results are heavily biased to the NW of the country which is rich in R1a ,N1c and I2-M423. The steppes don't yield large populations in modern day. There's a lot of evidence pointing to M269+ spreading from the steppes. I'm not sure how you can actually refute this evidence? I guess your suggestion is that ....is that the steppes were populated from the Pyrenee mountains? We were laughing about it 15 years ago, we're still laughing today.

The steppes had larger populations in the Chalco? can you explain how or it's pure guessing.

Pyrenees? You might update your Gondwana atlas, I was mentioning Atlantic countries with rich maritime resources.

Even so you are allowed to laugh some time more.