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View Full Version : Why autosomal admixtures is always linked with Y-dna Haplogroups ?



halfalp
04-02-17, 20:28
Hi, for stopping ***** other's topic and because in six months, nobody respond me to that question. Why autosomal admixtures like WHG,EEF,CHG are linked with y-dna haplogroups ? I'm totally neophyt with genetic can someone explain me in details how the logic of calculing admixtures works ?

New Englander
04-02-17, 23:53
It is the best way to trace migration patterns in ancient populations, but will only tell you part of the story. As far as MtDNA goes, mitochondria have their own genome, they are technically symbiotic organisms that live inside our cells, and have been evolving with us for millennia.

halfalp
05-02-17, 00:01
Yes, but taking for exemple, why people linked Gedrosian or Caucasian admixture, with R1b y-dna haplogroup ? Why not with one of the multiple mtdna haplogroups that is found for exemple in the Yamnaya horizon ?

New Englander
05-02-17, 01:10
Because again, MtDNA is not directly linked to Autosomal DNA. Also, Men tend to be homogeneous, and take women from surrounding areas, or locals when they invade other places. This would keep the Y-DNA consistent with a single population, but may give many random MtDNAs.

halfalp
05-02-17, 01:52
Ok, so you mean that admixture is a concept that is specifically linked with men and not women ? Also, if origin of, for exemple blue eyes is linked with like a read from a woman, and that blue eyes can only be see with autosomal dna, how searchers can linked blue eyes and women ?

New Englander
05-02-17, 03:05
Women still have Autosomal DNA dude. Haplogroups and admixture two totally different things. All haplgroups do is tell you how the admixture happened.

Expredel
05-02-17, 03:51
mtdna mutates something like 0.003 times per generation. It's hard to compare mtdna haplogroups when their point of origin is thousands of years apart.

halfalp
05-02-17, 11:07
Ok but, if for exemple you've got a population with 50% WHG, 40% EEF and 10% ANE, but only one y-dna haplogroup for the ensemble of the population. How do you explain the origin of those admixtures, without women ?

bicicleur
05-02-17, 11:15
most societies were exogame and patrilocal

that means young men mostly went looking for a wife in another tribe, but they stayed together in the man's tribe

also remember, when someone starts to travel alone or with a small family and comes amongst other people he/she keeps his Y/mtDNA, but in 2/3 generations the autosomal will be completely shifted

then if the autosomal of someone with a particular Y-DNA has shifted, and he gets a lot of male ofspring, there will be a lot of Y-DNA with this shifted autosomal

halfalp
05-02-17, 13:06
Yes, but whatever the shift, R1b and I2a dont make baby together, so if I2a is WHG and R1b ANE, if R1b become the dominant haplogroup, so ANE has to become the dominant admixture, if a recall what you all said.

New Englander
05-02-17, 16:01
No.

What if there are 10 people, all males.

All are I2a, one is R1b. Now say there are 10 females of random haplogroups.

3 of them **** the R1b men, and all are children are Males. We now have a male population of 4/14 R1b, instead of 1/10 R1b.

Now, all those R1b children have 1 male child, those children will only be 25% of "ANE", or whatever your want to use. SO now we have a population with 7/17 R1b, yet only 25% "ANE".

Do you understand now? We would have an average of 17% R1b "ANE" in a population weres 41% of males are R1b.

Now take into account that the R1b men are better at finding mates, yet some I2a do have offspring. Now lets pretend they are mixed genders. Mabey the overall number of R1b in the population is lower than 41%, but those whom do have R1b would resemble the host population, not the original R1b grandfather.

halfalp
05-02-17, 16:06
In fact, i dont really understand, how all this can be calculated without women apport. Because if ANE component is diluted by mixing with women, how can WHG shows. With your exemple, it just means that it take times, but in final, the 17% of ANE wich is the ancestral male admixture is overpassed by the women admixtures.

New Englander
05-02-17, 16:13
I dont know what the **** your taking about dude. The woman are random, they can come from anywhere. But chances are that in this case, they were WHG. So yes, the ANE admixture is diluted by the Maternal WHG, yet the frequency of R1b will rise over time. If you look at maternal Halpgroup maps for example, they do not follow a pattern. Look at Haplogroup J for example, its randomly spread across European coast lines (Spain, Scotland, Sweden), and Iran. While male lineages tend to show patterns, and are easier to track.

halfalp
05-02-17, 16:16
I'm not talking about modern times, i'm talk about Yamna cultures, wich shows only R1b male lineages, admit that we linked it with ANE admixtures, were came the WHG, EEF, CHG... admixtures related ?

halfalp
05-02-17, 16:28
Do you understand now? We would have an average of 17% R1b "ANE" in a population weres 41% of males are R1b. Yes this is what i understand, R1b man was the initial ANE founder of the tribe. But if 58% of the tribe has overpassed I2a original WHG marker, so the other admixture, saying R1b WHG only can come from mothers over times.

Expredel
05-02-17, 16:29
I'm not talking about modern times, i'm talk about Yamna cultures, wich shows only R1b male lineages, admit that we linked it with ANE admixtures, were came the WHG, EEF, CHG... admixtures related ?
There's mention in the Old Testament where two tribes meet and exchange women as a way to strengthen their alliance. An affluent tribe may have bought women, or simply kidnapped them. There are any number of ways.

halfalp
05-02-17, 16:35
There's mention in the Old Testament where two tribes meet and exchange women as a way to strengthen their alliance. An affluent tribe may have bought women, or simply kidnapped them. There are any number of ways.

Ok but, in first response, we told me, that women doesn't play a lot in admixtures... People, i'm trying to understand the logical aspect of admixtures, not to understand create patterns.

Maciamo
05-02-17, 16:39
There isn't any autosomal admixture that is always linked to a Y-haplogroup. Some admixture tend to correlate with some haplogroups or at least some subclades in a given region and time frame, but I cannot list all possible correlations in a few lines here.

halfalp
05-02-17, 16:46
There isn't any autosomal admixture that is always linked to a Y-haplogroup. Some admixture tend to correlate with some haplogroups or at least some subclades in a given region and time frame, but I cannot list all possible correlations in a few lines here.

Ok, but why, in exemple of Proto-Indo-Europeans theories, people linked R1a or R1b with CHG or Gedrosian admixtures, i have also see that between few months Iran_Neolithic and Chalcolithic have become new admixtures taking in count with R1a or R1b. Also, if " newcoming " men, arriving in a population with unrelated admixtures, isnt that logical that different admixtures, that we can not linked with the ancestral admixture of those men are coming from women autosomal dna ?

bicicleur
05-02-17, 17:06
Yes, but whatever the shift, R1b and I2a dont make baby together, so if I2a is WHG and R1b ANE, if R1b become the dominant haplogroup, so ANE has to become the dominant admixture, if a recall what you all said.


not necesarily
for instance take the Villabruna, he was R1b, but his autosomal was shifted to WHG for being among I2 for a few generations
if Villabruna would have had many sons and started a big new tribe, they would all have been R1b with WHG instead of ANE or WHG

bicicleur
05-02-17, 17:10
In fact, i dont really understand, how all this can be calculated without women apport. Because if ANE component is diluted by mixing with women, how can WHG shows. With your exemple, it just means that it take times, but in final, the 17% of ANE wich is the ancestral male admixture is overpassed by the women admixtures.

say a male is 100 % ANE, but marries a WHG wife, his son will be 50/50 ANE/WHG
if this son marries another WHG wife, his sons will be 25/75 ANE/WHG
and so on, every generation the ANE part is cut in half

halfalp
05-02-17, 17:22
say a male is 100 % ANE, but marries a WHG wife, his son will be 50/50 ANE/WHG
if this son marries another WHG wife, his sons will be 25/75 ANE/WHG
and so on, every generation the ANE part is cut in half

Ok, so because women are more mobile, its difficult to found a population with women of 100% something ? Or to understand the original admixture of it ? I presumed that 100% Something Male and 100% Something female, never exist in fact ? But isnt to simplifiate, to correlate only admixtures with men ? I mean, in a genetic way, not a pattern.

halfalp
05-02-17, 17:25
not necesarily
for instance take the Villabruna, he was R1b, but his autosomal was shifted to WHG for being among I2 for a few generations
if Villabruna would have had many sons and started a big new tribe, they would all have been R1b with WHG instead of ANE or WHG

But Villabruna is only the founder for the model of the Villabruna Cluster, if he is shifted, its because he is the grand grand... son of original exogen R1b no ?

bicicleur
05-02-17, 18:19
But Villabruna is only the founder for the model of the Villabruna Cluster, if he is shifted, its because he is the grand grand... son of original exogen R1b no ?

yes, afaik there are 10 samples identified in the Villabruna cluster of which only 1 R1b, 1 C1a2 and 8 I2, and all are near 100 % WHG autosomaly

halfalp
05-02-17, 18:38
yes, afaik there are 10 samples identified in the Villabruna cluster of which only 1 R1b, 1 C1a2 and 8 I2, and all are near 100 % WHG autosomaly

Yes, but this is paleolithic, C1a2 and I2 are Upper Paleolithic europeans we know that, so we've got 3 different y-dna haplogroups, for how much different mtdna haplogroups ?

Sile
05-02-17, 19:07
most societies were exogame and patrilocal

that means young men mostly went looking for a wife in another tribe, but they stayed together in the man's tribe

also remember, when someone starts to travel alone or with a small family and comes amongst other people he/she keeps his Y/mtDNA, but in 2/3 generations the autosomal will be completely shifted

then if the autosomal of someone with a particular Y-DNA has shifted, and he gets a lot of male ofspring, there will be a lot of Y-DNA with this shifted autosomal

There is too many assumptions in this

In villabruna times there was no wives , partners etc .............he would have bred where he could and along his "hunting-migrational" trail .

the theories of a percentages of ANE or WHG or EHG etc can only have any degree of accuracy once you establish a relationship with either a partner or a community

Megalophias
05-02-17, 19:17
Yes, but this is paleolithic, C1a2 and I2 are Upper Paleolithic europeans we know that, so we've got 3 different y-dna haplogroups, for how much different mtdna haplogroups ?
2 or 3. U5a and U5b (in terms of age and diversity each about similar to I2); if we include KO1 from Hungary, also mitochondrial haplogroup R1b.

halfalp
05-02-17, 19:34
2 or 3. U5a and U5b (in terms of age and diversity each about similar to I2); if we include KO1 from Hungary, also mitochondrial haplogroup R1b.

This mtdna haplogroup R1b is very interesting.

bicicleur
05-02-17, 20:13
There is too many assumptions in this

In villabruna times there was no wives , partners etc .............he would have bred where he could and along his "hunting-migrational" trail .

the theories of a percentages of ANE or WHG or EHG etc can only have any degree of accuracy once you establish a relationship with either a partner or a community

You think he was a cuckoo?

I would say both parents were supposed to feed and raise their offspring back then.
That would make the wives not so keen on breeding with a wanderer.

Unless, maybe back then the offsping wasn't raised by the parents, but by the whole tribe as a community.
And even in that case there may have been an objection against breeding outside the community.

Rethel
01-04-17, 16:24
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Rethel
01-04-17, 16:27
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Rethel
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