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View Full Version : Was Afontova Gora an ancestor of Afanasievo/yamna, or not?



johen
12-02-17, 19:23
https://s31.postimg.org/5qn0sb09n/Capture2.png
http://s16.postimg.org/d5v0tx1et/PCA_described.png

seems like Afontova Gora has components of Malta with more WHG women. And afanasievo/yamna compose of AG with more WHG women, being related to especially R1a-93 people.
However, Okunevo has Malta gene with more siberian/East Asian, going forward to karasuk and iron age alati(schyian)

bicicleur
12-02-17, 19:28
Afanasievo is no father, he is an uncle of Yamna, Sintashta and Andronovo
for Karasuk, Okunevo, Altai, Afanasievo is an uncle twice

LeBrok
12-02-17, 20:31
They were "cousins", meaning that some of their ancestors were the same, but not all.

johen
12-02-17, 20:32
Afanasievo is no father, he is an uncle of Yamna, Sintashta and Andronovo
for Karasuk, Okunevo, Altai, Afanasievo is an uncle twice

Afansievo people is paleo people type, so called cromagnon-type. Important thing is this paleo type appeared in steppe at bronze age.
So my problem is where they came from. Looks like altai area is good place for the paleo people to be isolated.
The UP type people like okunevo people lived in there. Another example, Mongol Bronze people chandman has a tie with UP people 20,000bc and cromagnon-type blackfoot american Indian(lots of R1 and X). Of course, they are different from modern mongolian.
Actually, Minusinsk Hollow was a good place to live since Iice age, hence, denisovan cave was also found there.
Interesting thing is giant warriors were found in the steppe at bronze age and tons of giants in the mounds in the U.S.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Id37N6vImUc/Uu2u1ZWpGrI/AAAAAAAAxlw/FSEaeFWYrAk/s1600/1010960_526639300783862_916482378_n.jpg

I think it is related with denisovan. As far as I know, UP people is just mixed with neanderthal and homosapien.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/field/image/adena-giants.jpg
http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancie...america-003342 (http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-americas/adena-people-and-prehistoric-colonization-north-america-003342)

giant was buried like frog in west virginia
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_ciencia2/gigantes15_07.jpg

another frog type, 2 meter+ skeleton (Over 6 ft 7 in. tall) Kurgan giant warrior 2012, Kumsai, Kazakhstan. Note 1 meter stick!
https://rephaim23.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/2-meter-skeleton-kurgan-giant-2012.jpg
https://rephaim23.wordpress.com/2014...a-7-feet-tall/ (https://rephaim23.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/bronze-age-giants-kurgan-warriors-of-russia-and-asia-7-feet-tall/)

How about afanasievo people? How did they keep their looks?
I think Russian anthroplogist regards them as first sample of paleo-type. Moreover, afanasievo admixture is so close to Afontova Gora.
(of course, I know their culture is not local.)

Twenty-four skulls from Afanas'evo sites possess similar characters. In addition to such Europoid traits as a prominent nose and an orhtognathous, ralatively short and unflattened face, the Afanas'evo skulls are massive. The latter is expressed in a greater facial breadth, a greater slant of the forehead, and in highly developed supraorbital crests. This combination of characters is unknown among the modern European races but occurs in the Upper Paleolithic period.
The closest analogy to the Afans'evo skulls offered by the Cro-Magnon type of western Europe.

MOESAN
16-02-17, 20:25
Afansievo people is paleo people type, so called cromagnon-type. Important thing is this paleo type appeared in steppe at bronze age.
So my problem is where they came from. Looks like altai area is good place for the paleo people to be isolated.
The UP type people like okunevo people lived in there. Another example, Mongol Bronze people chandman has a tie with UP people 20,000bc and cromagnon-type blackfoot american Indian(lots of R1 and X). Of course, they are different from modern mongolian.
Actually, Minusinsk Hollow was a good place to live since Iice age, hence, denisovan cave was also found there.
Interesting thing is giant warriors were found in the steppe at bronze age and tons of giants in the mounds in the U.S.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Id37N6vImUc/Uu2u1ZWpGrI/AAAAAAAAxlw/FSEaeFWYrAk/s1600/1010960_526639300783862_916482378_n.jpg

I think it is related with denisovan. As far as I know, UP people is just mixed with neanderthal and homosapien.



http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/field/image/adena-giants.jpg
http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancie...america-003342 (http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-americas/adena-people-and-prehistoric-colonization-north-america-003342)




How about afanasievo people? How did they keep their looks?
I think Russian anthroplogist regards them as first sample of paleo-type. Moreover, afanasievo admixture is so close to Afontova Gora.
(of course, I know their culture is not local.)


Thanks for the pictures.
UP of Eurasia was at least of two great sorts, the "oldest" being cromagnon-like: HE HAS NOTHING IN COMMON WITH NEANDERTHAL when speaking of features, nor for skull, nor for body!: spite arrived in West before the second common type (more or less brünnoid-capelloid), the cromagnoid type's crania features seem by far more "modern" than his follower in Europe - the second seems arrived around some stage of gravettian - during Mesolithic I think the two phyla were mingled in diverse proportions and I have no detailed data about the 'cromagnoids' of Eastern Eurasia, term found in Russian scientists books; there are some reasons to believe it was already some kind of the precedent mix (European Mesoloithics) with maybe more 'cromagnoid' in it, what I cannot decide without serious data about mensurations at global and individual level, helas. (I'm tired with all these "elongated skulls" and "broad faces" without more detail).
I doubt we need an isolated place in Central Asia to produce their so called "UP cromagnoid" type: he was living since long ago in some places of Eurasia - the archaïc looking types have been overrunned in Europe by Neolithic farmers from the Near-East but in some remote places at the skirts of Northern or Northtwestern Europe, even in South, and in places between Caucasus and the Baltic, the places which did not interested the first farmers, the type survived well enough - IMO not very "pure" - it seems the HGs descendants (of these types) took over more the breeding part than the cultivating one of the neolithic package (if we look at Taiga regions economy, we can imagine the breeding/herding job was not impossible to them?) -
Aside: Concerning stature, we cannot consider the elites means as the total pop mean; among warlike tribes stature and strength (truly rather than wrongly associated to it). It's true western Croma true types, given around 1m80, corrected to 1m74/76, was very high statured for their time. Their descendants and successors were vey smaller there: too much short endogamy by isolation during LGM?

johen
16-02-17, 22:47
Thanks for the pictures.
UP of Eurasia was at least of two great sorts, the "oldest" being cromagnon-like: HE HAS NOTHING IN COMMON WITH NEANDERTHAL when speaking of features, nor for skull, nor for body!: spite arrived in West before the second common type (more or less brünnoid-capelloid), the cromagnoid type's crania features seem by far more "modern" than his follower in Europe - the second seems arrived around some stage of gravettian - during Mesolithic I think the two phyla were mingled in diverse proportions and I have no detailed data about the 'cromagnoids' of Eastern Eurasia, term found in Russian scientists books; there are some reasons to believe it was already some kind of the precedent mix (European Mesoloithics) with maybe more 'cromagnoid' in it, what I cannot decide without serious data about mensurations at global and individual level, helas. (I'm tired with all these "elongated skulls" and "broad faces" without more detail).

I just mentioned the following 1:
In 1933, the Harvard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard) anthropologist Carleton S. Coon was invited to write a new edition of William Z. Ripley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Z._Ripley)'s 1899 The Races of Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Races_of_Europe_(Ripley)), which Coon dedicated to Ripley.
The conclusions:


The Caucasoid race (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race) is of dual origin consisting of Upper Paleolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Paleolithic) (mixture of Homo sapiens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens) and Neanderthals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal)) types and Mediterranean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_race) (purely Homo sapiens) types.
The Upper Paleolithic peoples are the truly indigenous peoples of Europe.
Mediterraneans invaded Europe in large numbers during the Neolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) and settled there.
The racial situation in Europe today may be explained as a mixture of Upper Paleolithic survivors and Mediterraneans.
When reduced Upper Paleolithic survivors and Mediterraneans mix a process of "dinaricization" occurs which produces a hybrid with non-intermediate features, epitomized by the Dinaric race (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinaric_race).
The Caucasoid race extends well beyond Europe into the Middle East (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East), Central Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia), South Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia), North Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa) and the Horn of Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_of_Africa).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Races_of_Europe_(Coon)#cite_note-2)
"The Nordic race (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_race) in the strict sense is merely a pigment phase of the Mediterranean",[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Races_of_Europe_(Coon)#cite_note-3) created by the combination of Corded (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture) and Danubian elements. (by wiki)


And Coon also said in his book (page 30)

It was amazing to find that the UP people were less variable on the whole than the inhibitants of London, who were buried in 17c.



I doubt we need an isolated place in Central Asia to produce their so called "UP cromagnoid" type: he was living since long ago in some places of Eurasia - the archaïc looking types have been overrunned in Europe by Neolithic farmers from the Near-East but in some remote places at the skirts of Northern or Northtwestern Europe, even in South, and in places between Caucasus and the Baltic, the places which did not interested the first farmers, the type survived well enough - IMO not very "pure" - it seems the HGs descendants (of these types) took over more the breeding part than the cultivating one of the neolithic package (if we look at Taiga regions economy, we can imagine the breeding/herding job was not impossible to them?) -


-The earlist earth Kurgan was found in the Vengerovsky District of Novosibirsk region near Ob river


A burial mound accommodating the remains of nine individuals dated to the Stone Age has been unearthed in western Siberia. The discovery’s significance lies primarily in the fact that this kind of burial site was believed to have emerged later, in the Bronze Age, Russian media report
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33555-7-ka-mesolithic-warriors-in-Siberia (#8)

-Gimbutas also said like this:

Gimbutas (1985: 191) has suggested that the Srednij Stog II culture in the DnieperDonets region which she identifies as her Kurgan I and II cultures (ca. 4500–3500BCE) was not the result of local evolution in that region but had its source in an intrusion from an earlier culture farther east with connections to the earliest Neoli-thic in the Middle Urals and Soviet Central Asia. The archaeological record of the regions still farther east before that time is unfortunately still largely blank.:Edwin G. PulleyblankUniversity of British [email protected] ([email protected]) THE PEOPLES OF THE STEPPE FRONTIER IN EARLYCHINESE SOURCES*

Since transitlon to a productive economy takes place in the steppes between the Urals the River (Yamno or Merpert 1977), it is an error to look for the source of the kurgan Culture in the East(cf. Gimbutas 1975- as far as Lake Balkash)

However, I think we need to wait Y DNA of Okunevo and Botai

MOESAN
17-02-17, 11:11
@JOhen
you cited Coon OK -
Coon had some good intuitions - but his 'neanderthal' component in UP people of Europe is proved very very weak by modern DNA analysis, if we can rely on them. I answered concerning phenotypic look and I maintain -
+ archaic 'europoid' featured people before Neolithic were scattered all over Eurasia, not only in Eastern Eurasia even if they stayed less mixed there because the lands were not the focus of agricultural revolution -
the post LGM era saw a lot of SW European UP coming North and North-East until N-Russia where they met later more dolichomorphic people (ancient mediter origin drifted towards so called 'nordic' type?)-
I think the archaic guys in E-Steppes are more a W to E move than the contrary (what does not exclude later coming back!), except some different archaic models of maybe more 'proto-mongoloid' or 'proto-amerindian' - I think some individuals or rather small groups moved on every kind of direction coming to complicate things at the mergins but it was not a global phenomenon - at Iron Age occurred a kind of "revenge" E to W set of moves (after huge crossings with NE and E-Asians) -
the most of the people which seem to correspond to Steppes originated moves into Europe between 3000 and 2000 BC was more on the dolichomorphic varieties I think, spite some mixtures with 'archaics' -
sure things were not so simple everywhere, we shall see this I suppose - but the 'europoid archaic' types in BA Altai and Ob-Yenissei regions (not alone but with some others not 'archaic' by the way) were intruders from West (some from Russia others through Russia + maybe someones from CSW Asia?)
- Dinaricization did not concern every "archaic"-"mediter" crossing - it's surely more complicated !
- Kurgan phenomenon is not by force a pure ethnic marker so... it needs more clues to determine contacts and direction of flood. "connections" is connections, it needs more.

johen
17-02-17, 18:04
@JOhen

I think the archaic guys in E-Steppes are more a W to E move than the contrary (what does not exclude later coming back!), except some different archaic models of maybe more 'proto-mongoloid' or 'proto-amerindian' - I think some individuals or rather small groups moved on every kind of direction coming to complicate things at the mergins but it was not a global phenomenon - at Iron Age occurred a kind of "revenge" E to W set of moves (after huge crossings with NE and E-Asians) -


I think this paleo-type R people at bronze age is obviously related with IndoEuropean language. If they came from west, I don’t think Q people could speak IndoEuropean in the East.
Actually, Q1a2 with R1a1 was found in Neolithic Atai and Bronze age mongolia where chandman resided in. Chandman was UP type people also.

Problem is IndoEuropean speaking people entered ancient China at the Bronze age. I don’t think they were R people, but Q people, considering their cultures.
Hunred of Pyramid exist in Xian, where Qin shi hwang, builder of the great wall, was buried in the pyramid also.
Considering the shang dynasty(1,600bc) culture and mayan, Harvard scholar C. K Chang said that chinese and american Indian have a common ancestor.





Hengbei site (Peng kingdom cemetery of Western Zhou (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Zhou) period), Jiang County (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_County), Shanxi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanxi), 2800-3000YBP: 9 Q1a1-M120, 2 O2a-M95, 1 N, 4 O3a2-P201, 2 O3, 4 O*[133] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242#cite_note-Henbei.2C_Pengyang_2012-133)

In another paper, the social status of those human remains of ancient Peng kingdom(倗国) are analyzed. aristocrats: 3 Q1a1 (prostrate 2, supine 1), 2 O3a (supine 2), 1 N (prostrate) / commoners : 8 Q1a1 (prostrate 4, supine 4), 3 O3a (prostrate 1, supine 2), 3 O* (supine 3) / slaves: 3 O3a, 2 O2a, 1 O*[134] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242#cite_note-134)
(cf) Pengbo (倗伯), Monarch of Peng Kingdom is estimated as Q-M120.



Pengyang County (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pengyang_County), Ningxia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningxia), 2500YBP: all 4 Q1a1-M120[133] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242#cite_note-Henbei.2C_Pengyang_2012-133) (with a lot of animal bones and bronze swords and other weapons, etc.)
Heigouliang, Xinjiang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang), 2200YBP: 6 Q1a* (not Q1a1-M120, not Q1a1b-M25, not Q1a2-M3), 4 Q1b-M378, 2 Q* (not Q1a, not Q1b: unable to determine subclades):[135] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242#cite_note-135)

In a paper(Lihongjie 2012), the author analyzed the Y-DNAs of the ancient male samples from the 2nd or 1st century BCE cemetery at Heigouliang (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heigouliang&action=edit&redlink=1) in Xinjiang – which is also believed to be the site of a summer palace for Xiongnu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu) kings – which is east of the Barkol basin and near the city of Hami (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hami_City). The Y-DNA of 12 men excavated from the site belonged to Q-MEH2 (Q1a) or Q-M378 (Q1b). The Q-M378 men among them were regarded as hosts of the tombs; half of the Q-MEH2 men appeared to be hosts and the other half as sacrificial victims.




Shang and Zhou: An Inquiry into the Linguistic Origins of Two Dynastic Names by Julie Lee Wei Victor H. Mair, Editor Sino-Platonic Papers Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305 USA [email protected] www.sino-platonic.org (http://www.sino-platonic.org)


this paper propose on hundred and fifty correspondences between old chinese and indo European words, roots, or stems....

The Rise of Agricultural Civilization in China:The Disparity between Archeological Discovery andthe Documentary Record and Its ExplanationbyZhou JixuCenter for East Asian Studies, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PennsylvaniaChinese Department, Sichuan Normal University, Chengdu, Sichuan

Unlike the Yangshao and Hemudu people, who came from southern China, the Huang Di nation came from west of China, from the western part of the Eurasian continent. They conquered the native people of the Yellow River and the Yangtze River, who possessed a developed agricultural culture. By combining their own imported cultural factors with those of the native culture, the Huang Di people gradually developed a splendid new civilization in the Xia, Shang, and Zhou dynasties. They superseded the original native people to take the leading role on the stage of Chinese history. Thatthe Huang Di nation was a branch of the archaic Indo-European people is one of the most remarkable facts thus far known to human history. But a large number of Indo-European words in Old Chinese language clearly attest to this fact. The relics left by the Huang Di people are related to the Longshan Culture in the archaeological chronicle, and the civilization of the Xia, Shang, Zhou, and Qin秦 dynasties were its successors.27 Evidence for this claim comes from two sources: the first uses the evidence of ancient documents to show that the Zhou people, and thus the Yellow Emperor’s nation, were originally a nomadic people, and the second is to reveal that there were a large number of Indo-European words in the Zhou language, using the evidence of historical linguistics. The third is the similarity in religion between the Huang Di people and Proto-Indo-European. As to the last point, please refer to the author’s paper “Old Chinese ‘帝*tees’ and Proto-Indo-European ‘*deus’: Similarity in Religious Ideas and a Common Source in Linguistics” (Zhou 2005).

Moreover, genetically connection from w to E is difficult, but archaeologically possible from E to W (India by okunevo, http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33484-why-Okunevo-culture-was-ingored-in-Indo-European-history-they-are-just-paleo-people)

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cLOANsm3nb4/V_meb5xfGII/AAAAAAAAE-U/TLcFYlZDwP0y01aWZTgsF3DhtGFyaE2MgCLcB/s712/Krause_IE_map.png

https://s32.postimg.org/icxxjzfqt/Capture.png


Btw, Same thing happened in Bronze china and Sumer, didn't it? I think that is a process of creating a civilization. How do you think? Sumer also has a similarity with mesoamerican civilizations.

"They conquered the native people of the Yellow River and the Yangtze River, who possessed a developed agricultural culture."

Prehistorically, the Sumerians were not aboriginal to Mesopotamia. Their native hearth is unknown. Speaking an agglutinative tongue showing affinities, on one hand, with the Uralo-Altaic languages (Balto-Finnish, Hungarian, Volgaic, Uralien, Samoyuedic, Turkish, Mongolian, and Eskimo) and, on the other hand, with the Dravidian tounges of India, the Pelasgian of pre-Homeric Greece, Georgian of the Caucasus, and Basque of the Pyrenes, they had arrived apparently c.3500 B.C. to find the river lands already accupied by an advanced Neolithic, farming and cattle-raising population known to science as the Ubaidian (also, Proto-Euphratean), [...].” (Joseph Campbell, The Mythic Dimension, New World Library, 2008, p.122)

MOESAN
18-02-17, 01:01
answer @ Johen
I think this paleo-type R people at bronze age is obviously related with IndoEuropean language. If they came from west, I don’t think Q people could speak IndoEuropean in the East.
Actually, Q1a2 with R1a1 was found in Neolithic Atai and Bronze age mongolia where chandman resided in. Chandman was UP type people also.



MOESAN : « paleo-type R » ? I prefer : pop paleo-types dominated with male Y-R lineages ! Y-R lineages came from farther East in East-Central Asia but there since long enough time, so their auDNA – surely rich in so called ANE - was surely WHG heavy (picked on Y-I dominated ancient pops on a long enough span of time perhaps) -
I don’t see to well the Y-Q question ; the most of Y-Q and Y-R lineages, spite of remote common origin, were i think well separated then, and concerning IE langage, the input of Y-Q in indoeuropeanized pops of Europe in vey light, except in Scandinavians where some Q lineages could be come at different dates, before and after our ere beginnings – classically enough, waiting for a new cognitive revolution, I consider the bulk of Y-Q pops were more on the Turkic side before Iron – Give me more clues about Chandman -
haplos and race #
Problem is IndoEuropean speaking people entered ancient China at the Bronze age. I don’t think they were R people, but Q people, considering their cultures.
Hunred of Pyramid exist in Xian, where Qin shi hwang, builder of the great wall, was buried in the pyramid also.
Considering the shang dynasty(1,600bc) culture and mayan, Harvard scholar C. K Chang said that chinese and american Indian have a common ancestor.
MOESAN : what part of China are you mentioning ? Xinjiang Tarim Bassin ? Or somewhere else ? Have you their Y-haplos ? Pyramids ? OK but what kind? And no, as a whole Chinese and Amerindians have not the same recent ancestors.
Shang and Zhou: An Inquiry into the Linguistic Origins of Two Dynastic Names by Julie Lee Wei Victor H. Mair, Editor Sino-Platonic Papers Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305 USA [email protected] www.sino-platonic.org (http://www.sino-platonic.org/)
this paper propose on hundred and fifty correspondences between old chinese and indo European words, roots, or stems....
The Rise of Agricultural Civilization in China:The Disparity between Archeological Discovery andthe Documentary Record and Its ExplanationbyZhou JixuCenter for East Asian Studies, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PennsylvaniaChinese Department, Sichuan Normal University, Chengdu, Sichuan
Unlike the Yangshao and Hemudu people, who came from southern China, the Huang Di nation came from west of China, from the western part of the Eurasian continent. They conquered the native people of the Yellow River and the Yangtze River, who possessed a developed agricultural culture. By combining their own imported cultural factors with those of the native culture, the Huang Di people gradually developed a splendid new civilization in the Xia, Shang, and Zhou dynasties. They superseded the original native people to take the leading role on the stage of Chinese history. Thatthe Huang Di nation was a branch of the archaic Indo-European people is one of the most remarkable facts thus far known to human history. But a large number of Indo-European words in Old Chinese language clearly attest to this fact. The relics left by the Huang Di people are related to the Longshan Culture in the archaeological chronicle, and the civilization of the Xia, Shang, Zhou, and Qin秦 dynasties were its successors.27 Evidence for this claim comes from two sources: the first uses the evidence of ancient documents to show that the Zhou people, and thus the Yellow Emperor’s nation, were originally a nomadic people, and the second is to reveal that there were a large number of Indo-European words in the Zhou language, using the evidence of historical linguistics. The third is the similarity in religion between the Huang Di people and Proto-Indo-European. As to the last point, please refer to the author’s paper “Old Chinese ‘帝*tees’ and Proto-Indo-European ‘*deus’: Similarity in Religious Ideas and a Common Source in Linguistics” (Zhou 2005).
MOESAN : very doubtful guesses about a debated historico-mythic concept : HuangDi : a god ? a man, or an ethny ? IE words ? Proposed, not proved, archeolinguistic and etymology are grounds where a good bit of freedom and doubts exists among specialists ; what links with attested I-E langages of West China ? – concerning religion I ‘m cautious about similarities : a lot is found among whole Humanity – even Benveniste’s concepts about three entities religion of IEns is debated -
Btw, Same thing happened in Bronze china and Sumer, didn't it? I think that is a process of creating a civilization. How do you think? Sumer also has a similarity with mesoamerican civilizations.

"They conquered the native people of the Yellow River and the Yangtze River, who possessed a developed agricultural culture."
Prehistorically, the Sumerians were not aboriginal to Mesopotamia. Their native hearth is unknown. Speaking an agglutinative tongue showing affinities, on one hand, with the Uralo-Altaic languages (Balto-Finnish, Hungarian, Volgaic, Uralien, Samoyuedic, Turkish, Mongolian, and Eskimo) and, on the other hand, with the Dravidian tounges of India, the Pelasgian of pre-Homeric Greece, Georgian of the Caucasus, and Basque of the Pyrenes, they had arrived apparently c.3500 B.C. to find the river lands already accupied by an advanced Neolithic, farming and cattle-raising population known to science as the Ubaidian (also, Proto-Euphratean), [...].” (Joseph Campbell, The Mythic Dimension, New World Library, 2008, p.122)
MOESAN : what agglutinative pelasgians langages ? Nobody to date knows for sure what were the Pelasgians – the Sumerians were supposed arrived by sea : my bet would be they were coming from someplace near Indus or SE Iran, but here I’m not worse nor better bets maker tan any other – in the affair of the I-E birth I find Campbell is casting his net wide (thanks Internet English help!) when mentioning all these langages, whatever their very remote common origins or only contacts -
I have no definitive opinion about proto-IE ; I prefer today the Steppes at the meeting of agglutinative and laryngales rich langages of peri-Caucasus and of Finnic-Ugric ones – without any certitude – and the peri-Caucasian tongue (perhaps with a taste of Semitic influences) could have passed into the Steppes either West or East the Caspian Sea for I know – or I ignore - to date -

You linked a map of pottery appearance in our old world – but it’ s matter of dates ; it proves nothing about ONE or SEVERAL untied origins - but in fact I don't know what your were trying to confirm with this map; at an overall level I missed to synhtetize what you were trying to explain and confirm with all this stuff -

My first aim i my first posts was to give my opinion about the physical type(s) or stable mix dominant among old Steppes people and it’s possible geographic and « racial » origins -I was not focalizing about I-Eans and Y-R1 – that said, EHG have a lot of WHG, WHG itself has two big components at first I think , the last one come from maybe East Eurasia already since the 23000/20000 BC - it would be interesting to know more about homozygoty among them - at the auDNA level I don’t know what kind of drift selection and hazard exerced on them – the unlevel mix at first could have been homogeneized a bit during post LGM with S-W Europe re-colonisation of N-E Europe, since 16000 BC until the 6000 BC -post-Maglemose + post-Swiderian ? – the later ANE input, more recent I think, could have been mediated by the OLDER Y-R1 lineages for a part -

johen
18-02-17, 17:02
answer @ Johen
I think I did not explain well.



In the US, tons of earth mounds exists. Even Minnesota state has 11,000 earth works and mounds. As we know, american indians have R1.
Below the US, lots of pyramids were built. And the builders had Q1a2.
I don’t know whether it is coincident, but in the steppe lots of earth mounds were built by Hg R people.
In Xian of China below the steppe, 100 pyramids are located.

The the biggest pyramid, so called white pyramid, is the same type of Q1a2 pyramid in Mexico. And the shang dynasty(1,600bc), when chinese civilization started, is so similar to Mayan’s,
Even so many modern chinese scholars thought that ancient chinese people migrated to America. Yes, they can do that b/c of the similarity.
Harvard archaeologist C K Chang explained in a different way that chinese and american Indian have a common ancestor. (Of course, they have different ancestors)

So who do you think buit the pyramids and shang civilization? Q1a2 or not?
(I don’t think it is not easy of chinese government to reveal the secret of pyramids and shang royal DNA. It is the same case as japanese government is trying not to do Yayoi DNA and Kofun tomb which is bigger than pyramid.)

I think shang royals look like okunevo people.
https://s3.postimg.org/yq3lfkk1f/Capture.png
And First one: maya, second one: axe for human sacrifice in shang (1,600bc) in china, third : shu culture(2,000bc) in sichuan of China.

Zhou dyansty (1,100bc), after the shang, had an Andronovo culture. Normally it is explained that zhou people are original chinese and the other Rong/DI people around zhou were foreign barbarians.
However, The reserch paper in my post explains that zhou people, Rong and DI people were the same people. Rong/Di had Andorovo culture also, but 9 Q1a1, not R1a, were found in the site related to Zhou as mentioned in my post.

Here is another archaeological datas:
JETIMAR: Cultures Ethnic Groups West of China

The victorious Chou installed a new dynasty there, whose symbol could be aprototype of the "tamgas" used during later periods by the peoples of the steppes (VajnandNovogorodova)
The daggers are of form known from the Ordos region,and may have belonged to the guards accompanying the new ruler. Of decisive importance are four horn psalia or cheekpieces (KK 1976: fig.18, 4) withthree perforations, the middle one perpendicular to the others, which were found together with horse bit made of bronze in grave M2. They correspond to a type known in theEarly Iron Age (Be1ogrudovsk and the Early Cernolessk cultures) of the forest steppes inthe Dnieper regions (Terenozkin 1958; 1965; Grakov 1977). The date is twelfth to ninthcenturies B.C. A similar cheekpiece was found in a slab-grave in Transbaikalia; among theso-called Ordos bronzes there is a replica in metal 1970).


A highly noteworthy phenomenon is that during the first half of the secondmillennium BcE a number of metal cultures almost simultaneously flourished in the oases,valleys and basins around the Mongolian Steppe, including southern Siberia, Altai,northwestern and eastern Xinjiang, Gansu, Ordos and southwestern Manchuria. Metalweapons, tools and ornaments from these cultures bear striking similarities.--> the Di tribe lived in Ordos region of inner mongolia, where Xioungu originated in.

"Prusek suggests relations between the Rong of Zhou and the Ren (人) tribes known in Shang.[7]" by wiki

As far as I know, western and chinese scholars know that old chinese language of shang and zhou had lots of PIE. The two papers in my post explained that. They are pure academic papers, which were published in the University of Pensylvania, one of Ivy league. Here is another one.
http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp007_old_chinese.pdf

So I think the Q people brought the PIE to ancient China, not R1a. If Q people were speaking PIE, I think the paleo-type R people (R1a or R1b at Bronze age) would not migrate from west to east as you said before, considering the dominance of Q1a2 culture and Hg Q1a1 in china.

MOESAN
19-02-17, 00:43
I'll give a look at this 'sino-platonic' thing - a first sight did not give me too more confidence - I saw this kind of strive to prove some imaginative ideas before. Homogeneity in phonetic changes is needed. Linguistic is a science when hypothesis are well weighted and made according to stable rules. But who know in this case? I 'll tell you my point after checking some aspects.
Thanks for the link ATW.

johen
19-02-17, 18:30
giant was buried like frog in west virginia
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_ciencia2/gigantes15_07.jpg

another frog type, 2 meter+ skeleton (Over 6 ft 7 in. tall) Kurgan giant warrior 2012, Kumsai, Kazakhstan. Note 1 meter stick!
https://rephaim23.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/2-meter-skeleton-kurgan-giant-2012.jpg
https://rephaim23.wordpress.com/2014...a-7-feet-tall/ (https://rephaim23.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/bronze-age-giants-kurgan-warriors-of-russia-and-asia-7-feet-tall/)



yamna frog type
http://erenow.com/ancient/the-horse-the-wheel-and-language/the-horse-the-wheel-and-language.files/image097.jpg
http://erenow.com/ancient/the-horse-the-wheel-and-language/13.html

afanasievo
https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/files/2010/11/Afanasievo-burial-shapes.jpg
https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/bronze-age-languages-of-the-tarim-basin/

--> where did the Giant come from? Was any giant human remain found during neolithic?
looks like UP type people(R1b and R1a) and Giants appeared at the Bronze age at the same time.

MOESAN
23-02-17, 15:54
some extract for what it is worth -

THE KARASUK CULTURE AND ITS SOUTH-EASTERN AFFINITIES – Karl JETTMAR



[…
Debets describes the people of Afanasievo4) as being very tall and strong. The skull shows a pronounced dolichocephaly, very prominent nasal bones, a rather low face, low orbits, and a very broad forehead. All these characteristics make the Afanasievo people very different from the former inhabitants of Cisbaikalia and probably of all people of the Siberian taiga. They show that we find here Europoide types which are somewhat different from the modern representatives of that race. Many features, especially the broad face, remind us of the Cromagnon type. It is doubtless an old form. The people are rather similar to those of the western »pit graves». The skeletal material of the Andronovo culture5) (Pis. XI, XIV) is a variety of the Afanasievo type. There is, however, a series of characteristic differences: 1. The face is still lower, which implies an increase in the nasal index and a decrease in the orbital index. 2. The skull is somewhat shorter and broader, so that the cranial index increases. (The Andronovo people are mesocephalic). 3. The forehead is straight, possibly in connection with the general change in the cranial structure. This type has probably immigrated into the Minusinsk region and gave agriculture
J) Kisolev 1949, p. 67. 2) Debets 1932, pp. 26—48. 3) Debets 1948, pp. 77—83, pi. 12. 4) Debets 1948, pp. 64—69. 5) Debets 1948, pp. 70—76.
8 113
BULLETIN OF THE MUSEUM OF FAR EASTERN ANTIQUITIES
a more important position. On the other hand, this type is spread as far as the Pontic steppes. The cranial material of K a r a s u k1) (Pis. XII, XIV), however, shows fundamental differences from these two types: 1. The face is narrow and high (the difference is as great as is at all possible within the range of the normal variability of these characteristics among men). The differences in nose and orbits are accordingly considerable. 2. The nose is flat — like, for example, that of the Turkish Nomads of the Middle Ages. (Hence they were at first compared to them). 3. The brachycephaly has become a good deal stronger. This is to be explained by a diminished head length. 4. The forehead is narrow and inclined. The skull has lost in height. The brow ridges are not much developed. If one cranial form is developed from another (for example, in brachycephalization), a certain functional connection is to be found between the modifications, as Debets believes.2) In this case, however, the differences are just the opposite of the usual functional relations. Cranial and facial index, for example, are in a negative correlation. Between the Andronovo and the Karasuk types this correlation becomes positive. If the skull becomes shorter, the forehead usually becomes straighter. But here the contrary is noticeable. A more inclined forehead is normally connected with strongly expressed brow ridges, but the Karasuk skull shows a more inclined forehead, together with not very highly developed brow ridges. Thus the Karasuk skull differs from the Andronovo skull not only formally but also in the direction of its development. It is obvious, then, that the Karasuk people cannot be the direct descendants of the Andronovo people. Only to a limited extent could the ancestors of this people be of Andronovo type. Strong differences in the skeletons are pointed out by Debets. The Karasuk skeletons are small and slender. Even the Afanasievo series has not very definite relations with this material. The following combination of characters: flat nose, high face, inclined forehead, and weakly expressed brow-ridges belong apparently to the Asiatic racial group, that is to say, to the Mongoloids in the widest sense.3) But the Mongoloids who are the eastern and northern neighbours of Minusinsk have a broader face,4) so that there is no solution of the problem here. The next types akin to these are
1) Debets 1948, p. 77. 2) Debets 1948, p. 79. 3) Cf. Roginskii 1937; Cheboksarov 1947. 4) Survey in Debets 1948, pp. 53—63. The west is Europoid and remains Europoid. Nor can any Mongoloids of this kind be found in the period in question in the near south and southeast e. g. in Tuva. 114
KARL JETTMAR: THE KARASUK CULTURE ETC.
found further southeast in the territory of modern China. Even the Chinese of to-day show this combination of characteristics, but it is more strongly expressed in the cranial material from the excavations of Neolithic sites in the region of the Yang Shao culture.1) The result, at any rate, looks precisely as if »Sinides»2) had taken part in the formation of the Karasuk population. No skull, however, bears these south-eastern racial characters unmixed. We repeatedly find details resembling peculiarities of Andronovo, but mostly Afanasievo types. Debets, therefore, regards the Karasuk people as a mixed population.3) Local types with remarkably predominant Afanasievo features mixed with a new element, the origin of which must have been the »North-Chinese-Manchurian-Korean» territory. Besides this, a brachycephalic Europoid element is assumed by Debets. He believes that this element had already been mixed with the Sinides outside of Minusinsk. This would explain the absence of unmixed types.
These south-eastern admixtures are not found anywhere in the Altai and in the western territory. Here the population is still of the original Andronovo type.4) The skeletal material of the following Tagar time (Pis. XIII, XIV) likewise indicates that in the Minusinsk region an invasion had taken place which was limited in time and place. Once more the development takes a new course. The Europoid element predominates again. Only in some characters does inheritance of Karasuk remain alive.5) As far as our knowledge of the western sites goes, the situation of Minusinsk appears absolutely unique.
III. SUMMARY. If we compare the results of anthropology with those of the archaeological research, the following becomes evident: 1. The inheritance of Andronovo features and the revival of Afanasievo features, especially in pottery and in burial customs, correspond to Afanasievo and Andronovo elements in the cranial material. 2. The southeastern relations in respect of metallurgy show a parallelism in the »Sinide» kinship of the skulls. J) Debets 1948, p. 81; Black, 1928. This latter treatise explains why the cranial material was at first compared to the Tibetic one (cf. Cheboksarov 1948). 2) Gaul (1943, p. 164) cites this statement from Debets 1932, but he does not realize its importance. »Sinides» means only racial relationship to the proto-Chinese type (according to Black), and is not equivalent to v. Eickstedt's term. 3) Debets 1948, p. 82. 4) Cf. Debets 1948 tabs. 15—17. 5) Debets 1948 pp. 124—129. Precisely in regard to the strong cultural continuity from Karasuk to Tagar this involves a special problem. 115
BULLETIN OF THE MUSEUM OF FAR EASTERN ANTIQUITIES
3. Karasuk must be looked upon as a mixed culture practised by a population which is likewise mixed. 4. Immediate predecessors who might have possessed these »Sinide» elements in race and culture in the Minusinsk Basin or in its immediate vicinity are not known to us. 5. Therefore a migration over far distances must have taken place. 6. The concentration of similar forms in Suei-yiian and Chahar indicates from which part of the vast region of the »Sinides» this migration must have started. 7. West of Minusinsk, especially in the Altai, this combination of anthropological type and Karasuk inventory does not exist. Here we can therefore only reckon with cultural diffusion. Immigration has been confined to the Minusinsk region. 8. Karlgren deals mainly with weapons and tools belonging to the inventory of that immigrating group. No doubt, therefore, his conception of this part of the problem is correct.1)
...]

apparently, shortly said:
-Seima shows new influences from outside W-Steppes influences
-the Karasuk Iron Ages newcomers were from China, 'mongoloid' but different from the autochtonous Siberian 'proto-mongoloid' pop around Novosybirsk and of course from the 'europoid' element present there since long enough time; as evidently they were no more "pure" when arrived there - the "europoid' element which shows up in the final mixture is closer to Afansasyavo means -close enough to Pit Grave if not identical - than to Andronovo means (these last less dolicho, more steep of forehead, even broader faced)
- new cultural types came by them

johen
01-03-17, 03:19
some extract for what it is worth -

THE KARASUK CULTURE AND ITS SOUTH-EASTERN AFFINITIES – Karl JETTMAR

[…
Debets describes the people of Afanasievo4) as being very tall and strong. The skull shows a pronounced dolichocephaly, very prominent nasal bones, a rather low face, low orbits, and a very broad forehead. All these characteristics make the Afanasievo people very different from the former inhabitants of Cisbaikalia and probably of all people of the Siberian taiga. They show that we find here Europoide types which are somewhat different from the modern representatives of that race. Many features, especially the broad face, remind us of the Cromagnon type. It is doubtless an old form.

K a r a s u k1) (Pis. XII, XIV),
apparently, shortly said:
-Seima shows new influences from outside W-Steppes influences
-the Karasuk Iron Ages newcomers were from China, 'mongoloid' but different from the autochtonous Siberian 'proto-mongoloid' pop around Novosybirsk and of course from the 'europoid' element present there since long enough time; as evidently they were no more "pure" when arrived there - the "europoid' element which shows up in the final mixture is closer to Afansasyavo means -close enough to Pit Grave if not identical - than to Andronovo means (these last less dolicho, more steep of forehead, even broader faced)
- new cultural types came by them


https://s31.postimg.org/5qn0sb09n/Capture2.png
I think this 2015 research result is extremely important to understand the bronz/iron age central asia
We can easily catch the two gene flow.

1.1st flow started in Malta, continued to Okunevo, karasuk and finally iron age Altai scythian.
Except, Malta boy, we can explain the others anthropologically.


The results suggest that the Irmen people originated in the Novosibirsk and Baraba areas from a mixture of Andronovo (Fedorovka) and autochthonous groups. Dental data are inconsistent with the idea that the Karasuk tribes might have taken part in this process. The Karasuk people clearly descended from the Okunevo people, as evidenced by the elevated frequencies of the Carabelli cusp and deflecting wrinkle. None of these traits is present in the Irmen people, who display dental gracility evidently introduced by Andronovo (Fedorovka) tribes.
Dental Affinities of The Irmen People, Western Siberia(2013)


The Late Scythian population considered in this study proved to be genetically homogeneous, although some connections with the Sarmatians were found. We also revealed similarities between the Scythian groups and the local Bronze Age population of the Srubnaya culture, as well as, to a lesser extent, a group representative of the Central Asian Bronze Age Okunevo culture.

Nonmetric cranial trait variation and the origins of the Scythians(2017)

Craniometrically, prehistoric populations of Gorny Altai are mostly intermediate between Mongoloid and Caucasoid populations. Genetically, individuals from Neolithic and Bronze Age burials display only Western Eurasian mtDNA haplotypes.
The morphological trait combination that is predominant among the Pazyryk(scythian) tribes appears to be autochthonous and probably derives from the Neolithic population of Gorny Altai and from people associated with an Okunev-type culture (Karakol). ---> The one thing is for sure that west scythian genetic admixture is similar to yamna.

2, 2nd gene flow is from yamna or afansievo to sintashta and andronovo.
The problem is there was no airplan at that time. How come yamna culture jumped to the Altai?


MtDNA Haplogroup A10 Lineages in Bronze Age Samples Suggest That Ancient Autochthonous Human Groups Contributed to the Specificity of the Indigenous West Siberian Population (2015)
The craniometric specificity of the indigenous West Siberian human populations cannot be completely explained by the genetic interactions of the western and eastern Eurasian groups recorded in the archaeology of the area from the beginning of the 2nd millennium BC

even if afanasievo culture is explained not to be local, their culture was closely related to the yellow ural culture.
The ural archaic people in the yellow zone is related with the Okunevo, who merged with afanasiveo.


The Okunev tribes of the Minusinsk Basin, those associated with Karakol, Ust-Tartas, and Krotovo cultures as well those buried in “Andronoid” cemeteries of Western Siberia at Yelovka II and Cherno-ozerye were apparently descendants of the local Neolithic tribes. All these groups display highly peculiar and apparently very ancient trait combinations which could hardly have resulted from an admixture between Mongoloids and Caucasoids. The role of the European component in their origins remains unclear.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mbYRi_rLvlE/UAWpFKRfa2I/AAAAAAAAALo/wVMb9PVM4xs/s1600/U2e-U4-U5region.png


The calibrated C14 dates of Afanas'evo material are generally slightly earlier than those taken from Yamnaya contexts in the western steppe, which complicates a diffusionist explanation of the emergence of pastoralists in the eastern steppe. Although their origins may be obscure, communities associated with Afanas'evo materials still represent the earliest mobile pastoralists east of the Ural Mountains... [their] incipient strategy of cattle and sheep/goat herding, supplemented by hunting and fishing.
The Afanas'evo subsistence economy might best be characterized as a mixed or transitional form between hunting/fishing and localized pastoralism, arising from local antecedents or combining native strategies with diffused domestic innovations among local populations.
...Perhaps the strongest evidence that divides the Yamnaya and Afanas'evo pastoralists in the mid-fourth millenium BCE is the discontinuity of pastoral economic strategies among societies living between these territories." [6]


In summary, current evidence suggests that the knowledge of smelting copper was widespread, though rare and sporadic, across Eurasia during the third millennium BC in arange of socio-cultural contexts. Some of the societies familiar with metal processing, suchas Longshan, were settled and had evidence of incipient complexity. Nomadic pastoralistslike the Afanasievo exploited at a low intensity the copper ores in southern Siberia. Other societies, such as those in Karelia, in the forest and forest-steppe zones of northern Eurasia,and the Surtandy culture of the eastern Urals, demonstrate that relatively non-complex societies, including settled hunter-fishers, or smaller mobile groups, could mine and smeltcopper and produce simple tools and ornaments when close to ore sources (Chernykh 1992,p. 187)


In the past two decades, an explosion of information on the prehistoric nomad groups in theformer USSR (Anthony 2007; Chernykh 1992; Chernykh et al. 2004; Kohl 2007;Koryakova and Epimakhov 2007; Kuz’mina 2008; Linduff 2004a, b; Linduff and Mei2009; also see Hanks and Doonan, this JWP Special) has shown that copper-base tech-nology has a rich history east of the Urals prior to the second millennium BC. Variousinstances of copper-base metallurgy dating within the third and even the fourth millenniumBC in Asia east of the Urals (Linduff 2004b)

And anthropologically, afanasievo is not closely related with yamna:

CRANIOMETRIC EVIDENCE OF THE EARLY CAUCASOID MIGRATIONS TO SIBERIA AND EASTERN CENTRAL ASIA, WITH REFERENCE TO THE INDO-EUROPEAN PROBLEM Article (PDF Available) in Archaeology Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia 37(4):125-136 · December 2009


Nor are these affi nities shown by the Afanasyev people disregarding isolated Central and Western European ties of Saldyar and Afanasyeva Gora. Despite this, the ties of the Afanasyev groups with the early and late Catacomb are distributed approximately evenly. The general conclusion is rather modest: Afanasyev roots apparently lie in Eastern European steppes and forest-steppes, but relating them to a specific culture is impossible.

Moreover, srubna(R1a-z93)/ Poltavka culture(R1a-z94) and andronovo(R1a-z93) is anthropologically related to Afanasievo than yamna.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/4-2.jpg

The other ancient R1a-93 are related with Karasuk(okunevo) and Mongolo bronze chandman in the Altai

And horse-riding, chariots and bronze weapons are closely related with afanasievo-okunevo culture in altai
http://i58.tinypic.com/2ij6wkj.jpg

In southern Siberia, the Okunevo culture probably learned about copper-base metallurgyfrom the Afanasievo (Chernykh et al. 2004, p. 28). However, while the rare Afanasievometal artifacts are of unalloyed copper, gold, and silver, the Okunevo used both copper andtin-bronze for knives, awls, and bracelets. Okunevo finds include one bronze cast socketedspearhead, the earliest such spearhead this far east

David Anthony (2007, pp. 434–444) has commented, ‘the tin-bronze spears, daggers, and axes of the Seima–Turbino horizon were among the most technically and aesthetically refined weapons in the ancient world, but they were made by forest and forest-steppe societies that in some places…still depended on hunting and fishing’
==> why did they use them in the forests?
I think the relationship between seima-turbino and sintashta looks like to be same as the relationship between okunevo and afanasievo.

johen
02-03-17, 17:19
Afanasevo Culture
R1b1a2-M269, R1b1a2-M269, R1b1a(xR1b1a1 M73), Q-M242
Okunevo Culture,
NO(xO), NO(xO), NO(xO), Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3-M346(xL54), R1b1a2-M269.
Sagsai Culture,
Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3a-L54, R1a-Z93, R1a-Z93, R1a-Z93, C-M130
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQWWRud1dzYWQzUW8/view

Now I understnd why Pazyryk scythian had N1b. And they used human skull as a drinking cup and buried their bodies and heads separately like american Indians. They shaved their whole heads except long braids like Indians. XioungNu also did human skull as a cup


DNA samples recovered from the remains of two Pazyryk males showed them to be members of Y-chromosome haplogroup N1b-P43 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231#N1b_.28L732.29).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_culture#cite_note-3)

"Craniometrically, prehistoric populations of Gorny Altai are mostly intermediate between Mongoloid and Caucasoid populations. Genetically, individuals from Neolithic and Bronze Age burials display only Western Eurasian mtDNA haplotypes.
The morphological trait combination that is predominant among the Pazyryk(scythian) tribes appears to be autochthonous and probably derives from the Neolithic population of Gorny Altai and from people associated with an Okunev-type culture (Karakol)."

MOESAN
03-03-17, 00:49
JOHEN :
I think this 2015 research result is extremely important to understand the bronz/iron age central asia
We can easily catch the two gene flow.

1.1st flow started in Malta, continued to Okunevo, karasuk and finally iron age Altai scythian.
Except, Malta boy, we can explain the others anthropologically.

The results suggest that the Irmen people originated in the Novosibirsk and Baraba areas from a mixture of Andronovo (Fedorovka) and autochthonous groups. Dental data are inconsistent with the idea that the Karasuk tribes might have taken part in this process. The Karasuk people clearly descended from the Okunevo people, as evidenced by the elevated frequencies of the Carabelli cusp and deflecting wrinkle. None of these traits is present in the Irmen people, who display dental gracility evidently introduced by Andronovo (Fedorovka) tribes.

Dental Affinities of The Irmen People, Western Siberia(2013)

Moesan : phenotypes means and individuals say : the Karasuk period saw new ‘mongoloid’ types from N-China, different from the badly defined autochtonous pop of the Ob/Ineissei regions of Neolithic (if true neolithic!) : here I recall culture is not always ethny or race : the Okunevo settlements in some places Tuva/Yenulino high Ob/Yenisseiclose were of more on the‘europoid’ side, even a bit western (it’s true some archeologic traits would show ties with West there) -

The Late Scythian population considered in this study proved to be genetically homogeneous, although some connections with the Sarmatians were found. We also revealed similarities between the Scythian groups and the local Bronze Age population of the Srubnaya culture, as well as, to a lesser extent, a group representative of the Central Asian Bronze Age Okunevo culture.

Nonmetric cranial trait variation and the origins of the Scythians(2017)

Craniometrically, prehistoric populations of Gorny Altai are mostly intermediate between Mongoloid and Caucasoid populations. Genetically, individuals from Neolithic and Bronze Age burials display only Western Eurasian mtDNA haplotypes.
The morphological trait combination that is predominant among the Pazyryk(scythian) tribes appears to be autochthonous and probably derives from the Neolithic population of Gorny Altai and from people associated with an Okunev-type culture(Karakol).

---> The one thing is for sure that west scythian genetic admixture is similar to yamna.




2, 2nd gene flow is from yamna or afansievo to sintashta and andronovo.
The problem is there was no airplan at that time. How come yamna culture jumped to the Altai?

Moesan : on feet and after on horses and wagons ? Nomadic pops change lands faster than peasants ones (and can go back faster too) and the concerned periods dured some centuries, let’s remember – enough time to get very far – all the way, it seems it’s not the very Yamna people who got there but pops with a good % of common steppic ancestors, shown by auDNA and metrics too -

MtDNA Haplogroup A10 Lineages in Bronze Age Samples Suggest That Ancient Autochthonous Human Groups Contributed to the Specificity of the Indigenous West Siberian Population (2015)
The craniometric specificity of the indigenous West Siberian human populations cannot be completely explained by the genetic interactions of the western and eastern Eurasian groups recorded in the archaeology of the area from the beginning of the 2nd millennium BC

even if afanasievo culture is explained not to be local, their culture was closely related to the yellow ural culture.

The ural archaic people in the yellow zone is related with the Okunevo, who merged with afanasiveo.

The Okunev tribes of the Minusinsk Basin, those associated with Karakol, Ust-Tartas, and Krotovo cultures as well those buried in “Andronoid” cemeteries of Western Siberia at Yelovka II and Cherno-ozerye were apparently descendants of the local Neolithic tribes. All these groups display highly peculiar and apparently very ancient trait combinations which could hardly have resulted from an admixture between Mongoloids and Caucasoids. The role of the European component in their origins remains unclear.

The calibrated C14 dates of Afanas'evo material are generally slightly earlier than those taken from Yamnaya contexts in the western steppe, which complicates a diffusionist explanation of the emergence of pastoralists in the eastern steppe. Although their origins may be obscure, communities associated with Afanas'evo materials still represent the earliest mobile pastoralists east of the Ural Mountains... [their] incipient strategy of cattle and sheep/goat herding, supplemented by hunting and fishing.
The Afanas'evo subsistence economy might best be characterized as a mixed or transitional form between hunting/fishing and localized pastoralism, arising from local antecedents or combining native strategies with diffused domestic innovations among local populations.
...Perhaps the strongest evidence that divides the Yamnaya and Afanas'evo pastoralists in the mid-fourth millenium BCE is the discontinuity of pastoral economic strategies among societies living between these territories." [6]

In summary, current evidence suggests that the knowledge of smelting copper was widespread, though rare and sporadic, across Eurasia during the third millennium BC in arange of socio-cultural contexts. Some of the societies familiar with metal processing, such as Longshan, were settled and had evidence of incipient complexity. Nomadic pastoralists like the Afanasievo exploited at a low intensity the copper ores in southern Siberia. Other societies, such as those in Karelia, in the forest and forest-steppe zones of northern Eurasia,and the Surtandy culture of the eastern Urals, demonstrate that relatively non-complex societies, including settled hunter-fishers, or smaller mobile groups, could mine and smeltcopper and produce simple tools and ornaments when close to ore sources (Chernykh 1992,p. 187)

In the past two decades, an explosion of information on the prehistoric nomad groups in theformer USSR has shown that copper-base tech-nology has a rich history east of the Urals prior to the second millennium BC. Various instances of copper-base metallurgy dating within the third and even the fourth millenniumBC in Asia east of the Urals (Linduff 2004b)

And anthropologically, afanasievo is not closely related with yamna:




CRANIOMETRIC EVIDENCE OF THE EARLY CAUCASOID MIGRATIONS TO SIBERIA AND EASTERN CENTRAL ASIA, WITH REFERENCE TO THE INDO-EUROPEAN PROBLEM Article (PDF Available) in Archaeology Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia 37(4):125-136 · December 2009

Nor are these affinities shown by the Afanasyev people disregarding isolated Central and Western European ties of Saldyar and Afanasyeva Gora. Despite this, the ties of the Afanasyev groups with the early and late Catacomb are distributed approximately evenly. The general conclusion is rather modest: Afanasyev roots apparently lie in Eastern European steppes and forest-steppes, but relating them to a specific culture is impossible.

Moesan : Afanasyevo groups had similarities with Pit Graves Yamnaya even if they had more with Timber Graves and Catacombs – maybe Khvalynsk was the common denominator of all means of types?

Moreover, srubna(R1a-z93)/ Poltavka culture(R1a-z94) and andronovo(R1a-z93) is anthropologically related to Afanasievo than yamna.

Moesan : Andronovo was a bit different from Afanasyevo too, at least as different as was Yamnaya, and Yamnaya was not so different – but yes, a direct link between Yamna and Afanasyevo is not evident nor attested – again a between pop needed!

The other ancient R1a-93 are related with Karasuk(okunevo) and Mongolo bronze chandman in the Altai

And horse-riding, chariots and bronze weapons are closely related with afanasievo-okunevo culture in altai

In southern Siberia, the Okunevo culture probably learned about copper-base metallurgy from the Afanasievo (Chernykh et al. 2004, p. 28). However, while the rare Afanasievometal artifacts are of unalloyed copper, gold, and silver, the Okunevo used both copper andtin-bronze for knives, awls, and bracelets. Okunevo finds include one bronze cast socketedspearhead, the earliest such spearheadthis far east

David Anthony (2007, pp. 434–444) has commented, ‘the tin-bronze spears, daggers, and axes of the Seima–Turbino horizon were among the most technically and aesthetically refined weapons in the ancient world, but they were made by forest and forest-steppe societies that in some places…still depended on hunting and fishing’

==> why did they use them in the forests?
I think the relationship between seima-turbino and sintashta looks like to be same as the relationship between okunevo and afanasievo.

Moesan : OK Johen : what is the demonstration ? That Bronze was imported in Central-West Siberia by East-Asian people before reaching later Finno-Ugric regions ? OK. Or maybe new Bronze technics only ; but the Steppes people were the first to reach this regions where they found the autochtnoes – Okunevo rather ‘East-Asian’ oriented pop learned with Steppics at first – more culture exchanged than genes, as it can arrive more than a time (it’s the difficulty to conclude sometimes on diverses sorts of data) – After cam the new metal technics, from South-East apparently (Altay ? South-East the Altay?) ; but what was the remote origins of the metals even in these S-E regions ? – witthout certainty I would bet rather from S-W, from S-C Asia finally – have you some clues ?
To come back to the very topic, I don't find Afontova Gora is ancestral to Afanasyevo as a whole, either for auDNA basis or for material culture basis - Okunevo learned by Afanasyevo - only later at Karasuk times, an influence from South reached the SW Siberia with new mtallurgy technics; I think it's these technics which were learned to ancestors of the Finnic-Ugric tribes and perhaps explain their westwards expansion (or reinforcement) towards the Baltic shores, at a time they were no more completely the "poor parents" of the I-Eans? - Not a military advantage at first place, but technical advantages on every plan of material life? Just amateur thoughts.

johen
03-03-17, 20:25
RE: Northern Eurasian Anthropological Formation
T.A.Chikisheva Dynamics of anthropological differentiation of South-Western Siberian population in Neolithic - Early Iron Age(2010)
“Conclusion:
Analysis of Neolithic and Eneolithic paleoanthropological materials in comparative aspect using available comparative data on synchronous cultures led to a very important conclusion that in the Neolithic Era and at the turn of Neolithic-Chalcolithic in the anthropological composition across Eurasia dominated morphological complexes with incomplete differentiation into consolidated Mongoloid and Caucasoid complexes of the main (geographical) races.
V. Bunak identified one of unconsolidated complexes in varying anthropological variations in the Eurasian north-western forest zone as a separate racial community, which he called “Northern Eurasian Anthropological Formation” (Bunak, 1956, p. 101). To that anthropological community belong the Neolithic population groups of the Baraba steppe adjacent to the Altai-Sayan upland (Creek, Sopka-2/1).. The area of the Northern Eurasian Anthropological Formation enormous area: the main finds were obtained in the north-western (Onega lake, southern basin of the White Sea, Karelia, Baltics) and southeastern (northern Baraba) fringes, and also in the northern forest zone of the East European Plain”



The craniometric specificity of the indigenous West Siberian human populations cannot be completely explained by the genetic interactions of the western and eastern Eurasian groups recorded in the archaeology of the area from the beginning of the 2nd millennium BC

the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Europe displayed a highly uniform pallet of mtDNA with most individuals belonging to haplogroup (hg) U5. The early farmers of Europe, who arrived from West Asia more than 8,000 years BP (yr BP) , in contrast belonged to a wide variety of mtDNA haplogroups previously unseen in Europe. These findings have led to the view that the shift to agriculture involved a substantial degree of population replacement and that hunter-gatherers and farmers did not interbreed considerably for the first few thousand years, both in Central Europe and in Scandinavia
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mbYRi_rLvlE/UAWpFKRfa2I/AAAAAAAAALo/wVMb9PVM4xs/s1600/U2e-U4-U5region.png)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mbYRi_rLvlE/UAWpFKRfa2I/AAAAAAAAALo/wVMb9PVM4xs/s1600/U2e-U4-U5region.png


Altogether, these findings suggest that various subclades of R1a may have been common in hunter-gatherer populations of Eastern Europe and that just one of them, R1a-M417, was later amplified to high frequency by the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age expansion.
The fact that two Latvian huntergatherer Y chromosomes have been characterized as belonging to R1b-M269 clade39 suggests that both sub-clades of R1 were present in the Baltic area before the expansion of the CWC.

Our results support the hypothesis that individuals associated with the CCC hunter-gatherers in Estonia were genetically most similar to Eastern hunter-gatherers from Karelia, a region further east from Estonia. A recently published comparison of Latvian Mesolithic and CCC huntergatherer genomes supports this result, while Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from Latvia and Lithuania appear genetically most similar to Western hunter-gatherers.
Extensive farming in Estonia started through a sex-biased 2 migration from the Steppe (2017)

=> However, I think the R1 people in the Baltic area and in Pontic steppe people were different people, b/c the
former is intemediary between caucasoid and mongloid, but latter Paleo cromagnon type, popping up at bronze age. And I think the red zone might be a bridge for the migration bewteen the Altai and the potic steppe.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33670-Afanasievo-was-R1b1a2/page2 (post #34)

johen
03-03-17, 20:26
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQWWRud1dzYWQzUW8/view

Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 file:///C:/Users/hkhong/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=502612#post502612)
Afanasevo Culture
R1b1a2-M269, R1b1a2-M269, R1b1a(xR1b1a1 M73), Q-M242
Okunevo Culture,
NO(xO), NO(xO), NO(xO), Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3-M346(xL54), R1b1a2-M269.
Sagsai Culture,
Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3a-L54, Q1a3a-L54, R1a-Z93, R1a-Z93, R1a-Z93, C-M130

Now I understnd why Pazyryk scythian had N1b. And they used human skull as a drinking cup and buried their bodies and heads separately like american Indians. They shaved their whole heads except long braids like Indians. XioungNu also did human skull as a cup


DNA samples recovered from the remains of two Pazyryk males showed them to be members of Y-chromosome haplogroup N1b-P43 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231#N1b_.28L732.29).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_culture#cite_note-3)

"Craniometrically, prehistoric populations of Gorny Altai are mostly intermediate between Mongoloid and Caucasoid populations. Genetically, individuals from Neolithic and Bronze Age burials display only Western Eurasian mtDNA haplotypes.
The morphological trait combination that is predominant among the Pazyryk(scythian) tribes appears to be autochthonous and probably derives from the Neolithic population of Gorny Altai and from people associated with an Okunev-type culture (Karakol)."

Archaeologically scthythian originated in Altai. They moved to west, having similar admixture of Yamna.
https://s12.postimg.org/sotpekpl9/Capture.png


The Late Scythian population considered in this study proved to be genetically homogeneous, although some connections with the Sarmatians were found. We also revealed similarities between the Scythian groups and the local Bronze Age population of the Srubnaya culture, as well as, to a lesser extent, a group representative of the Central Asian Bronze Age Okunevo culture.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2017 Mar;162(3):589-599. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.23159. Epub 2017 Jan 24. Nonmetric cranial trait variation and the origins of the Scythians. Movsesian AA1, Bakholdina VY1.


Genetic relationship and origin of the Scythian groups The eastern sample group (n=113) can be divided in four cultural subgroups chronologically dispersed over the 1st millennium BCE (Fig. 2). Analysing mtDNA, we found no significant genetic distance between those groups (Supplementary Table 8).
Ancestry and demography and descendants of Iron Age nomads of the Eurasian Steppe (2017)

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/m685/ncomms14615-f7.jpg

- yellow is East Asian.
-Light blue is Nganasan.

Russian anthropologists now classified this N1b samoyedics to be indigenous population from the intermediary people between caucasiod and mongloid like okunevo people.
Moreover, East scythian series hava ties with Okunevo, Karasuks, following the above genetic admixture. The Author used to be a co-author of reserch by C. Loring Brace, and Di honorable russian anthropologist V.P.Alekxseev.
http://user.dankook.ac.kr/~oriental/Journal/pdf_new/49/11.pdf

- In addition, I am sure that scythian elite group's cranial deformation originated in afanasievo's skull from Altai. That is the central asia tradition of shamanism, also wearing red-color clothes. The elite group was very brave and regarded the other scythain as their slaves. Nomally, the elongated skull means "sun" by the shamanism. But I don't agree with this. I think it was "bird," which was a sky god like this:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33484-why-Okunevo-culture-was-ingored-in-Indo-European-history-they-are-just-paleo-people (#7)

johen
24-03-17, 00:18
To come back to the very topic, I don't find Afontova Gora is ancestral to Afanasyevo as a whole, either for auDNA basis or for material culture basis


Afontova Gora 17,000bc has more west eurasian gene than Maltaboy 22,000bc. It means west women continually entered altai. I am not sure whether this lake baikal forager searched for women and stole them according to indoeuroean tradition or exogamy. However, we cannot exclude the possibility that west women continued to be brought till metal age.

David Anthony:

When it comes to understanding the origin of European culture, there’s another reason for looking at the Yamnaya. The very foundation of Rome may be steeped in their traditions
. According to studies of IndoEuropean mythology, young Yamnaya men would go off in warlike groups, raping and pillaging for a few years, then return to their village and settle down into respectability as adults. Those cults were mythologically associated with wolves and dogs, like youths forming wild hunting packs, and the youths are said to have worn dog or wolf skins during their initiation. Anthony has found a site in Russia where the Yamnaya killed wolves and dogs in midwinter. He says it’s easy to imagine groups
sacrificing and consuming the animals as a way to symbolically become wolves or dogs themselves. Bodies in Yamnaya graves on the western steppes frequently have pendants of dog canine teeth around their necks. Anthony says that all this offers solid archaeological evidence for the youthful “wolf packs” of Indo-European legends – and sees a link to the myth of the foundation of Rome. “You’ve got two boys, Romulus and Remus and a wolf that more or less gives birth to them,” he says. “And the earliest legends of the foundation of Rome are connected with a large group of homeless young men who were given shelter by Romulus. But they then wanted wives, so they invited in a neighbouring tribe and stole all their women. You can see that whole set of early legends as being connected possibly with the foundation of Rome by youthful war bands.
Actually, Russian anthropologist does not find the source population of andronovo people, who are wider and lower face than afanasievo people, just mentioning that andronovo people originated in Kazarstan. I think there is a possibility that the andronovo people did not come from yamna or afanasievo. How come they had wider and lower face than afanasievo, even if they had more west eurasian components (more EEF) than afanasievo?
This reaserch(2011) also states that the neolithic people in East karzarstan was caucasoid.
Moreover Debets(1948) found bronze caucasoid skulls in karzakstan being similar to andronovo.


Discussion

The origin of the Andronovo variant of the Proto-European trait combination appears to be the least disputable. Its wide distribution was evidently associated with the spread of the Andronovo (Fedorovka) culture from a single area. Because admixture seldom if ever results in the decrease of the facial height (Bunak, 1980), very low faces of the Andronovo people support the idea that this population originated in a single region, and that isolation was the major factor in its origin (Alekseyev, 1961). While the idea that the ancestors of the Andronovo (Fedorovka) people lived in Kazakhstan before the Middle Bronze Age (Ibid.) appears plausible, it cannot be supported by available data at present.

Isolated Neolithic and Chalcolithic crania from eastern Kazakhstan – the male one from burial 2 at Ust- Narym in the Eastern Kazakhstan region, and the female one from a Neolithic burial with the Yekaterinino-type pottery at Zhelezinka in the Pavlodar Region – display Proto-European features

The paleoanthropological material from the territory of Kazakhstan allowed G.F.Debets to establish some characteristic attributes in the physical shape of local population during the Bronze Epoch.


Debets assumes, therefore, that the forest belt of western Siberia was inhabited not along the rivers from the south but rather from the east. The forest belt of western Siberia is now populated by racial types transitional between the Europoid and Mongoloid races. During 1939 in the Tym and Vakh valleys and in the area lying between the Ob and Yenisei valleys the Expedition found a strong Europoid admixture. This cannot be explained by mestization with Russian traders since it is so much stronger than among the Tungus and other tribes having a comparable amount of intercourse with the Russians, and also because of the extremely isolated character of the Tym and Vakh valleys.



Based on materials from two other broadly contemporaneous sites in southern Gorny Altai (Kucherla-1 ritual complex and Bertek-56 mound), V.I. Molodin discussed the possibility that a separate archaeological culture had existed in that area. According to Molodin (2002), the decoration of pottery from those sites may be akin to the Afanasyev tradition. However, the cranial features of a male, aged 30 – 35, and of a child aged 6.5 – 7 from Bertek-56 (Chikisheva, 2003b) point in a different direction. While being morphologically Caucasoid, those people do not display the Afanasyev trait combination. Rather, their features are suggestive of hybridization between people of the Karakol culture (as evidenced by the structure of the frontal bone, the fl attened face, and certain peculiarities of the dentition) and robust large-faced Caucasoids resembling the 2nd millennium BC pastoralists buried at Ranniy Tulkhar in the Beshkent Valley, Tadjikistan (Kiyatkina, 1976).

epoch
30-03-17, 20:44
Afontova Gora 17,000bc has more west eurasian gene than Maltaboy 22,000bc.

The sample AG2 is very contaminated. Furthermore, ADMIXTURE does not check for ancestry directly, it tries to position samples on the basis of Fst. With samples of different age it can very easily come up with flaws. Pretty much all Paleolithic samples get strange components such as Onge or Sub-Saharan African, often based on the fact that modern populations all have lost genes due to drift that weren't lost 30.000 ya.

For instance, mesolithic hunter-gatherers almost certainly had a tad ANE admixture. So the enhanced western component in AG2 could be shared drift, shared between AG2 and WHG, build up in ANE in the 7.000 years between MA1 and AG2 and thus not shared with MA1.


It means west women continually entered altai. I am not sure whether this lake baikal forager searched for women and stole them according to indoeuroean tradition or exogamy. However, we cannot exclude the possibility that west women continued to be brought till metal age.

That is why you can't conclude that. Not without a lot of uniparental markers and far more ANE samples.