Classify female roman mayor

Hey there, please classify and geographically "locate" the present mayor of Rome, Virginia Raggi. She's 1.65 m tall.
I hope nobody already posted her, it's my first time on Eupedia after a long break...! :sad-2:

Surely from a country that has olive trees,

Yetos said:

Surely from a country that has olive trees,

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I get it Would she pass as average greek, or does she look more "western" according to you?

She has a more "southern" appearance to me than her surname would indicate, and yes, Greek too, and I don't mean because of pigmentation necessarily. I think it's her eyes more than anything else.

The face itself isn't particularly "Med" looking to me: no soft Med oval. Her face shape is actually a lot like mine: rather broad, a squarish jaw, a broad rounded chin, even the same cheekbones. I'd be interested to hear what you think that indicates. (The eyes, mouth and nose are totally different though, and the forehead.)

The face shape reminds me of the woman whom I posted here: Lea Miguel, a French actress from Limoges. Again, the features, and pigmentation, are different. So is the forehead.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32353-Classify-this-woman




I first noticed her in the series "Un Village Francais", now in its sixth season on mhzchoice, and still fabulous.

She looks quite different with make-up.

Mars said:

I get it Would she pass as average greek, or does she look more "western" according to you?

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olive trees exist All over Mediterennean, Italy included,

Yes she could easily pass as Greek, but not only,

Angela said:

She has a more "southern" appearance to me than her surname would indicate, and yes, Greek too, and I don't mean because of pigmentation necessarily. I think it's her eyes more than anything else.

The face itself isn't particularly "Med" looking to me: no soft Med oval. Her face shape is actually a lot like mine: rather broad, a squarish jaw, a broad rounded chin, even the same cheekbones. I'd be interested to hear what you think that indicates. (The eyes, mouth and nose are totally different though, and the forehead.)

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I think it's a characteristic ancient roman/italic look (and probably etrurian, too); Raggi has always looked genuinely roman/latin to me.

Her surname sounds somehow northern, anyway Rome was repopulated in the late middle ages (or maybe even later, I don't remember) with people from Tuscany. The impact of tuscan migration was so strong that it even contributed to modify the local dialect, that was more similar to modern day neapolitan back then (roman is considered a "central" dialect now).

Back in topic, her square face is a reduced CM (alpinid) influence in my opinion, in a solid mediterranean framework (nose and head shape, and minor characteristics here and there). She's very typical in the roman area: gracile mediterranean brunettes with slight alpine are common. I think it's the result of central european inputs of the indoeuropean invaders (italics) blending with the pre-existing mediterranean, post-neolithic population of ancient Italy (that represent the dominant part, even in autosomal dna).

About the french girl, the central european influences seem more accentuated to me, she'd pass easily here in my Liguria and sorrounding regions (but also in Rome, naturally).

Yetos said:

olive trees exist All over Mediterennean, Italy included,

Yes she could easily pass as Greek, but not only,

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I know dude, my region's pride is its olive oil It's got a cool history, check it out if you like
http://www.myitalianoliveoil.com/en/content/7-taggiasca-ligure
I agree she could pass as greek. There is clearly a pan-mediterranean "ancient" look all over Europe, especially the southern part.

Mars said:

I think it's a characteristic ancient roman/italic look (and probably etrurian, too); Raggi has always looked genuinely roman/latin to me.

Her surname sounds somehow northern, anyway Rome was repopulated in the late middle ages (or maybe even later, I don't remember) with people from Tuscany. The impact of tuscan migration was so strong that it even contributed to modify the local dialect, that was more similar to modern day neapolitan back then (roman is considered a "central" dialect now).

Back in topic, her square face is a reduced CM (alpinid) influence in my opinion, in a solid mediterranean framework (nose and head shape, and minor characteristics here and there). She's very typical in the roman area: gracile mediterranean brunettes with slight alpine are common. I think it's the result of central european inputs of the indoeuropean invaders (italics) blending with the pre-existing mediterranean, post-neolithic population of ancient Italy (that represent the dominant part, even in autosomal dna).

About the french girl, the central european influences seem more accentuated to me, she'd pass easily here in my Liguria and sorrounding regions (but also in Rome, naturally).

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I totally agree with your bolded statement. I noticed that about her the instant I saw her in the series. That's why I posted her.

As for Raggi, yes, her features look like those in the Fayum mummy portrait (the woman there might not be Roman, yes?), but they're set in a very different kind of facial structure imo. I definitely think those features represent an antique look, but I'm not so sure it's particularly or specifically Roman. This is a Roman copy of a Greek work of art found in Pompeii. So, it's a Greek look as well. Pan-Mediterranean, as you say.


I don't know about the Etruscans. So much of their portraiture is a stylized redo of Greek art. I'm sure there were people who approximated that look, but there were also people like these from the more naturalistic period:


I looked up the Raggi surname just for the heck of it. Center-north.

http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turi...i-italia?cognome=Raggi&x=28&y=14#.WKjT__krKyJ

Oh, I used to buy Ligurian oil on line for salads and vegetables, but only for special friends. I haven't for a while because it doesn't seem to travel very well.

I believe he has Jewish ancestry. I have also seen something African, may be Egypt or Ethiopia and also some of northern Europe may be the British Isles. Maybe that's why her hair is weird, it almost looks like a wig, it's like she does not have to do with it, it has an exotic antique mix. I have also seen great hunger in their ancestors at some period in history. In spite of her apparent sweetness she could become a very harsh and cruel woman, but for a reason she believed just.

Angela said:

I totally agree with your bolded statement. I noticed that about her the instant I saw her in the series. That's why I posted her.

As for Raggi, yes, her features look like those in the Fayum mummy portrait (the woman there might not be Roman, yes?), but they're set in a very different kind of facial structure imo. I definitely think those features represent an antique look, but I'm not so sure it's particularly or specifically Roman. This is a Roman copy of a Greek work of art found in Pompeii. So, it's a Greek look as well. Pan-Mediterranean, as you say.

I don't know about the Etruscans. So much of their portraiture is a stylized redo of Greek art. I'm sure there were people who approximated that look, but there were also people like these from the more naturalistic period:

I looked up the Raggi surname just for the heck of it. Center-north.

http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turi...i-italia?cognome=Raggi&x=28&y=14#.WKjT__krKyJ

Oh, I used to buy Ligurian oil on line for salads and vegetables, but only for special friends. I haven't for a while because it doesn't seem to travel very well.

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Wow, thanks to that link I realized my surname is most frequent in Apulia! Interesting!

The roman lady picture I posted as an example of "roman/italic look" is from a III century mosaic in San Salvo, Abruzzo, an area historically inhabited by various italic tribes and soon romanized.
Anyway I think gracile mediterranean features are so common in the northern mediterranean basin that it's hard to define a border for its frequency. It surely has to do with neolithic expansion IMO.
Surname Raggi appears to be pretty well spread in Romagna, c so the there could be some recent (from Renaissance to Risorgimento) origins in her father's line... Romagna was a legazione pontificia, a region controlled by the Papal States until 1860:

Mars said:

The roman lady picture I posted as an example of "roman/italic look" is from a III century mosaic in San Salvo, Abruzzo, an area historically inhabited by various italic tribes and soon romanized.
Anyway I think gracile mediterranean features are so common in the northern mediterranean basin that it's hard to define a border for its frequency. It surely has to do with neolithic expansion IMO.
Surname Raggi appears to be pretty well spread in Romagna, c so the there could be some recent (from Renaissance to Risorgimento) origins in her father's line... Romagna was a legazione pontificia, a region controlled by the Papal States until 1860:

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As to your first bolded comment, if that were so, someone at the Royal Museum of Scotland would have an awful lot of explaining to do.

http://www.nms.ac.uk/explore/collection-search-results/?item_id=301634

I don't at all think, btw, that those portraits are all realistic; they're much too similar to each other for that. I think once again we're dealing with artistic conventions.

As to your second comment, I totally agree.

@Carlos,
Sorry, Carlos, I don't agree at all. I see no sign of African in Raggi whatsoever, not even North African. It's a different cast of features. As for the hair, it looks colored to me in some pictures, and suffering as a result. I did it myself, so I can recognize it in others.

Another woman who dyes her hair black for effect, a Neapolitan, with those kinds of features, although in a face closer to the traditional Mediterranean oval this time. She's not an actress or a model either, just a very pretty woman.

@Carlos,
Sorry, Carlos, I don't agree at all. I see no sign of African in Raggi whatsoever, not even North African. It's a different cast of features. As for the hair, it looks colored to me in some pictures, and suffering as a result. I did it myself, so I can recognize it in others.

From many centuries ago, probably time of the Roman Empire, would bet on Egypt, it is possible that a male ancestor. The hair honestly seems to have been borrowed by a friend. She also has an ancestor who was a wise woman, an old woman who prophesied. I think he will go through politics without pain or glory.

ok

I said she could pass as Greek, and extended Mediterennean

I am posting a photo



some characteristics at Mediterennean are common,
and is not only Neolithic expansion,
But Iranian expand to Balkans
But Greek colonisation
But Roman empire which plays significant role
even the move of Gauls to minor Asia
and Islamic expand to North Africa,
etc etc

all these happened at an axis East-West and oposite,
Not at an axis North - South

What an actress, and what a woman: a veritable force of nature. Also, indeed, the very look.

In Antigone:

Angela said:

What an actress, and what a woman: a veritable force of nature. Also, indeed, the very look.

In Antigone:

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Another actress who has that look:
Caterina Murino, Sardinian actress, in costume in a period film...




The above is when she was Solange in the Bond movie with Daniel Craig.

Mars said:

I think it's a characteristic ancient roman/italic look (and probably etrurian, too); Raggi has always looked genuinely roman/latin to me.

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That's a Fayum portrait, you shouldn't trust what you find on the internet. Raggi and neither the ancient woman you posted look genuinely Roman/Italic. In fact the ancient woman you posted is the portrait of an Egyptian lady (or a mix of Egyptian and Greek) exhibited and preserved at the Royal Museum of Scotland in Edinburgh.

Source:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fayum_mummy_portraits

Ritratto femminile, fine età traianea, 110-130 d.C.
Tempera su tavola, 42,5 x 23 cm Edimburgo,
National Museums Scotland

http://www.beniculturali.it/mibac/e...InItalia/visualizza_asset.html_963373966.html

Mars said:

The roman lady picture I posted as an example of "roman/italic look" is from a III century mosaic in San Salvo, Abruzzo, an area historically inhabited by various italic tribes and soon romanized.
Anyway I think gracile mediterranean features are so common in the northern mediterranean basin that it's hard to define a border for its frequency. It surely has to do with neolithic expansion IMO.

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No way, that's not a mosaic to begin with, it's clearly a tempera painting on wood. And clearly not a III century mosaic from San Salvo, Abruzzo, because, as I've already told you, it's a Faiyum mummy portrait from the Faiyum Oasis in Egypt. The majority of portraits represent native Egyptians, including the Greek settlers. The webiste from where you picked the pic is unreliable (se quelli del portale amatoriale su San Salvo sono così scemi da spacciarla per un mosaico ritrovato là, non è affar nostro. Affar nostro è rimanere accurati, se si è in buona fede).

If you really think that a Fayum portrait represents a genuinely Roman/Italic look, you haven't understood who really were the Romans/Italics (and neither the Etruscans).

Augustus was an Italic.





Pompey the Great was an Italic




Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa was an Italic.



Caligula was an Italic



Aule Metele was an Etruscan.

Mars said:

Her surname sounds somehow northern, anyway Rome was repopulated in the late middle ages (or maybe even later, I don't remember) with people from Tuscany. The impact of tuscan migration was so strong that it even contributed to modify the local dialect, that was more similar to modern day neapolitan back then (roman is considered a "central" dialect now).

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Raggi as surname is spread in too many regions but it peaks in Lombardy. As many people born in Rome, Virginia Raggi could have even 4 grandparents from different regions of Italy and none from Rome/Central Italy.

The Roman dialect wasn't Tuscanized due to the migrations from Tuscany, that weren't huge like you said, but because of the Tuscan cultural and political influence over the Vatican.

Pax you're right, I read an article on this site http://www.sansalvo.net/notizie/var...si-racconta-tra-scienza-ipotesi-e-suggestioni and it misled me.
My bad - Colpa mia, mi spiace.
Comunque già Angela l'aveva evidenziato, eh...
Non capisco cosa significhi portare esempi di maschi romani italici, etruschi e quant'altro visto che si parla di donne.
About the roman dialect
Il volgare parlato a Roma nel Medioevo (il romanesco antico o “di prima fase”, documentato dalla trecentesca Cronica dell’Anonimo romano) aveva acquisito varie caratteristiche che lo collegavano ai dialetti meridionali (come il dittongo “napoletano” in parole come uocchi ‘occhi’, tiempo ‘tempo’), mentre in età rinascimentale, specie dopo il Sacco borbonico del 1527 e il conseguente ripopolamento della città, subì una profonda toscanizzazione, che rese il romanesco moderno (o “di seconda fase”) strutturalmente assai prossimo alla lingua di base tosco-fiorentina.
Lo dice la Treccani eh...

There aren't as many named busts or statues of the women of the early Roman nobility, and the general run of statues of women are often copies of Greek art, so I don't know that we could tell much about the "Italic" look from them, even assuming that the Roman nobility was "pure" Italic.

I'd say, though, that if we're going to talk about features, my impression is that the ancient Roman nobility is marked by a preponderance of small, thin-lipped mouths, and rather smaller eyes than those we're discussing, in combination with a long and sometimes bumpy, but not curved nose.

Flavian women:




Perhaps Vibia Sabina might be a good example.



The faces are also quite broad across the cheekbones, and the head shapes are often not very Med at all.

Mars said:

Pax you're right, I read an article on this site http://www.sansalvo.net/notizie/var...si-racconta-tra-scienza-ipotesi-e-suggestioni and it misled me. My bad - Colpa mia, mi spiace.

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No prob.

Mars said:

Comunque già Angela l'aveva evidenziato, eh...
Non capisco cosa significhi portare esempi di maschi romani italici, etruschi e quant'altro visto che si parla di donne.

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Se quelli sono i maschi italici, come potevano le donne italiche sembrare egiziane o greco-egiziane? Per gli Etruschi è più complicato, non esistendo ritratti realistici fino all'epoca romana. Ammetto che sia al limite dell'azzardo assimilare tutti insieme Romani, Latini, Umbri, Sabini, Piceni, Oschi, Sanniti, e compagnia cantante, ma se è esistito un look Romano/Italico, ed è senz'altro esistito, tra gli italici esisteva il tema dell'appartenenza, era molto diverso da un look profondamente mediterraneo. Ed esistono ancora italiani che sembrano sosia di questi italici, in tutta Italia.

Gneo Pompeo Magno e il toscano Walter Mazzarri sembrano parenti stretti.

Mars said:

About the roman dialect
Il volgare parlato a Roma nel Medioevo (il romanesco antico o “di prima fase”, documentato dalla trecentesca Cronica dell’Anonimo romano) aveva acquisito varie caratteristiche che lo collegavano ai dialetti meridionali (come il dittongo “napoletano” in parole come uocchi ‘occhi’, tiempo ‘tempo’), mentre in età rinascimentale, specie dopo il Sacco borbonico del 1527 e il conseguente ripopolamento della città, subì una profonda toscanizzazione, che rese il romanesco moderno (o “di seconda fase”) strutturalmente assai prossimo alla lingua di base tosco-fiorentina.
Lo dice la Treccani eh...

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Of course it's correct. But the Treccani doesn't say that Rome was repopulated (exclusively) by Tuscans and for this reason the Roman dialect underwent a process of Tuscanization, there was no mass migration from Tuscany, but rather there was an important Florentine community composed of merchants, bankers and noble Florentine families in Rome who had a great influence over Rome and the Vatican. This kind of Tuscanization wasn't a phenomenon of people embracing a new dialect, but initially in the 1500/1600 more a phenomenon that involved mainly middle and upper social strata of the Roman population rather than common people. Only gradually the use of a Roman dialect closer to the Tuscan also spread among the lower social strata of the population, who always had an origin very diverse, with people coming from many different parts of Italy. Anyway it was quite a long process according to Tullio De Mauro.

Rome was repopulated even by Corsicans at that time.
Source:
La presenza dei corsi nella Roma del Quattrocento. Prime indagini nei protocolli notarili
http://www.persee.fr/doc/mefr_0223-5110_1986_num_98_2_2876

Ernst, Gerhard
La toscanizzazione del dialetto romanesco nel Quattro e nel Cinquecento
Pisa : Fabrizio Serra, 2011.

Tullio De Mauro,
Storia linguistica dell’Italia unita
Laterza, Bari-Roma [1963], 2003, pp. 24-26

https://ilmediumelepratiche.wordpress.com/tag/toscanizzazione-del-dialetto-romanesco/