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Mars
18-02-17, 00:37
Hey there, please classify and geographically "locate" the present mayor of Rome, Virginia Raggi. She's 1.65 m tall.
I hope nobody already posted her, it's my first time on Eupedia after a long break...! :sad-2:

http://www.unionesarda.it/foto/previewfoto/2016/10/10/virginia_raggi-550-340-541594.jpg

http://www.ilsussidiario.net/img/_THUMBWEB/virginiaraggi_zoom1R439_thumb400x275.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Virginia_Raggi_crop.jpg/220px-Virginia_Raggi_crop.jpg

Yetos
18-02-17, 07:38
Surely from a country that has olive trees, :laughing:

Mars
18-02-17, 13:57
Surely from a country that has olive trees, :laughing:
I get it :) Would she pass as average greek, or does she look more "western" according to you?

Angela
18-02-17, 16:16
She has a more "southern" appearance to me than her surname would indicate, and yes, Greek too, and I don't mean because of pigmentation necessarily. I think it's her eyes more than anything else.

The face itself isn't particularly "Med" looking to me: no soft Med oval. Her face shape is actually a lot like mine: rather broad, a squarish jaw, a broad rounded chin, even the same cheekbones. I'd be interested to hear what you think that indicates. (The eyes, mouth and nose are totally different though, and the forehead.)

The face shape reminds me of the woman whom I posted here: Lea Miguel, a French actress from Limoges. Again, the features, and pigmentation, are different. So is the forehead.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32353-Classify-this-woman

http://webservices.francetelevisions.fr/staticftv/images_pdm_ni/2016-10-26/vlcsnap-2016-10-26-18h16m57s399_1477498880.png


I first noticed her in the series "Un Village Francais", now in its sixth season on mhzchoice, and still fabulous.

She looks quite different with make-up.
https://pp.vk.me/c5694/u147658697/143255090/x_d26fafea.jpg

Yetos
18-02-17, 16:55
I get it :) Would she pass as average greek, or does she look more "western" according to you?


olive trees exist All over Mediterennean, Italy included,

Yes she could easily pass as Greek, but not only,

Mars
18-02-17, 22:47
She has a more "southern" appearance to me than her surname would indicate, and yes, Greek too, and I don't mean because of pigmentation necessarily. I think it's her eyes more than anything else.

The face itself isn't particularly "Med" looking to me: no soft Med oval. Her face shape is actually a lot like mine: rather broad, a squarish jaw, a broad rounded chin, even the same cheekbones. I'd be interested to hear what you think that indicates. (The eyes, mouth and nose are totally different though, and the forehead.)

I think it's a characteristic ancient roman/italic look (and probably etrurian, too); Raggi has always looked genuinely roman/latin to me.
http://www.sansalvo.net/archivi/immagini/2014/ALTRO/1---donna-romana.jpg
Her surname sounds somehow northern, anyway Rome was repopulated in the late middle ages (or maybe even later, I don't remember) with people from Tuscany. The impact of tuscan migration was so strong that it even contributed to modify the local dialect, that was more similar to modern day neapolitan back then (roman is considered a "central" dialect now).

Back in topic, her square face is a reduced CM (alpinid) influence in my opinion, in a solid mediterranean framework (nose and head shape, and minor characteristics here and there). She's very typical in the roman area: gracile mediterranean brunettes with slight alpine are common. I think it's the result of central european inputs of the indoeuropean invaders (italics) blending with the pre-existing mediterranean, post-neolithic population of ancient Italy (that represent the dominant part, even in autosomal dna).

About the french girl, the central european influences seem more accentuated to me, she'd pass easily here in my Liguria and sorrounding regions (but also in Rome, naturally).

Mars
18-02-17, 22:53
olive trees exist All over Mediterennean, Italy included,

Yes she could easily pass as Greek, but not only,
I know dude, my region's pride is its olive oil :-) It's got a cool history, check it out if you like
http://www.myitalianoliveoil.com/en/content/7-taggiasca-ligure
I agree she could pass as greek. There is clearly a pan-mediterranean "ancient" look all over Europe, especially the southern part.

Angela
19-02-17, 00:06
I think it's a characteristic ancient roman/italic look (and probably etrurian, too); Raggi has always looked genuinely roman/latin to me.
http://www.sansalvo.net/archivi/immagini/2014/ALTRO/1---donna-romana.jpg
Her surname sounds somehow northern, anyway Rome was repopulated in the late middle ages (or maybe even later, I don't remember) with people from Tuscany. The impact of tuscan migration was so strong that it even contributed to modify the local dialect, that was more similar to modern day neapolitan back then (roman is considered a "central" dialect now).

Back in topic, her square face is a reduced CM (alpinid) influence in my opinion, in a solid mediterranean framework (nose and head shape, and minor characteristics here and there). She's very typical in the roman area: gracile mediterranean brunettes with slight alpine are common. I think it's the result of central european inputs of the indoeuropean invaders (italics) blending with the pre-existing mediterranean, post-neolithic population of ancient Italy (that represent the dominant part, even in autosomal dna).

About the french girl, the central european influences seem more accentuated to me, she'd pass easily here in my Liguria and sorrounding regions (but also in Rome, naturally).

I totally agree with your bolded statement. I noticed that about her the instant I saw her in the series. That's why I posted her.

As for Raggi, yes, her features look like those in the Fayum mummy portrait (the woman there might not be Roman, yes?), but they're set in a very different kind of facial structure imo. I definitely think those features represent an antique look, but I'm not so sure it's particularly or specifically Roman. This is a Roman copy of a Greek work of art found in Pompeii. So, it's a Greek look as well. Pan-Mediterranean, as you say.
https://janeaustensworld.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/aphrodite-roman-copy-of-a-greek-painting-pompeii1.jpg

I don't know about the Etruscans. So much of their portraiture is a stylized redo of Greek art. I'm sure there were people who approximated that look, but there were also people like these from the more naturalistic period:
https://www.apollo-magazine.com/content/uploads/2016/08/02.-Sarcophagus-lid-with-portraits-of-husband-and-wife1-900x600.jpg

I looked up the Raggi surname just for the heck of it. Center-north.

http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?cognome=Raggi&x=28&y=14#.WKjT__krKyJ

Oh, I used to buy Ligurian oil on line for salads and vegetables, but only for special friends. :) I haven't for a while because it doesn't seem to travel very well.

Carlos
19-02-17, 04:13
I believe he has Jewish ancestry. I have also seen something African, may be Egypt or Ethiopia and also some of northern Europe may be the British Isles. Maybe that's why her hair is weird, it almost looks like a wig, it's like she does not have to do with it, it has an exotic antique mix. I have also seen great hunger in their ancestors at some period in history. In spite of her apparent sweetness she could become a very harsh and cruel woman, but for a reason she believed just.

davef
19-02-17, 07:42
I totally agree with your bolded statement. I noticed that about her the instant I saw her in the series. That's why I posted her.

As for Raggi, yes, her features look like those in the Fayum mummy portrait (the woman there might not be Roman, yes?), but they're set in a very different kind of facial structure imo. I definitely think those features represent an antique look, but I'm not so sure it's particularly or specifically Roman. This is a Roman copy of a Greek work of art found in Pompeii. So, it's a Greek look as well. Pan-Mediterranean, as you say.
https://janeaustensworld.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/aphrodite-roman-copy-of-a-greek-painting-pompeii1.jpg

I don't know about the Etruscans. So much of their portraiture is a stylized redo of Greek art. I'm sure there were people who approximated that look, but there were also people like these from the more naturalistic period:
https://www.apollo-magazine.com/content/uploads/2016/08/02.-Sarcophagus-lid-with-portraits-of-husband-and-wife1-900x600.jpg

I looked up the Raggi surname just for the heck of it. Center-north.

http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?cognome=Raggi&x=28&y=14#.WKjT__krKyJ

Oh, I used to buy Ligurian oil on line for salads and vegetables, but only for special friends. :) I haven't for a while because it doesn't seem to travel very well.
Wow, thanks to that link I realized my surname is most frequent in Apulia! Interesting!

Mars
19-02-17, 12:01
The roman lady picture I posted as an example of "roman/italic look" is from a III century mosaic in San Salvo, Abruzzo, an area historically inhabited by various italic tribes and soon romanized.
Anyway I think gracile mediterranean features are so common in the northern mediterranean basin that it's hard to define a border for its frequency. It surely has to do with neolithic expansion IMO.
Surname Raggi appears to be pretty well spread in Romagna, c so the there could be some recent (from Renaissance to Risorgimento) origins in her father's line... Romagna was a legazione pontificia, a region controlled by the Papal States until 1860:
http://www.historyguy.com/papal_states_map.gif

Angela
19-02-17, 17:23
The roman lady picture I posted as an example of "roman/italic look" is from a III century mosaic in San Salvo, Abruzzo, an area historically inhabited by various italic tribes and soon romanized.
Anyway I think gracile mediterranean features are so common in the northern mediterranean basin that it's hard to define a border for its frequency. It surely has to do with neolithic expansion IMO.
Surname Raggi appears to be pretty well spread in Romagna, c so the there could be some recent (from Renaissance to Risorgimento) origins in her father's line... Romagna was a legazione pontificia, a region controlled by the Papal States until 1860:
http://www.historyguy.com/papal_states_map.gif

As to your first bolded comment, if that were so, someone at the Royal Museum of Scotland would have an awful lot of explaining to do. :)

http://www.nms.ac.uk/explore/collection-search-results/?item_id=301634

I don't at all think, btw, that those portraits are all realistic; they're much too similar to each other for that. I think once again we're dealing with artistic conventions.

As to your second comment, I totally agree.

@Carlos,
Sorry, Carlos, I don't agree at all. I see no sign of African in Raggi whatsoever, not even North African. It's a different cast of features. As for the hair, it looks colored to me in some pictures, and suffering as a result. I did it myself, so I can recognize it in others.

Another woman who dyes her hair black for effect, a Neapolitan, with those kinds of features, although in a face closer to the traditional Mediterranean oval this time. She's not an actress or a model either, just a very pretty woman.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDOLtVVWAAEwcdw.jpg

Carlos
19-02-17, 20:14
@Carlos,
Sorry, Carlos, I don't agree at all. I see no sign of African in Raggi whatsoever, not even North African. It's a different cast of features. As for the hair, it looks colored to me in some pictures, and suffering as a result. I did it myself, so I can recognize it in others.

From many centuries ago, probably time of the Roman Empire, would bet on Egypt, it is possible that a male ancestor. The hair honestly seems to have been borrowed by a friend. She also has an ancestor who was a wise woman, an old woman who prophesied. I think he will go through politics without pain or glory.

Yetos
19-02-17, 22:29
ok

I said she could pass as Greek, and extended Mediterennean

I am posting a photo

http://www.epaggelmagynaika.gr/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/5cf40067d6708c5b304c99c7d81ad1b6_L-1000x750.jpg

some characteristics at Mediterennean are common,
and is not only Neolithic expansion,
But Iranian expand to Balkans
But Greek colonisation
But Roman empire which plays significant role
even the move of Gauls to minor Asia
and Islamic expand to North Africa,
etc etc

all these happened at an axis East-West and oposite,
Not at an axis North - South

Angela
19-02-17, 22:38
What an actress, and what a woman: a veritable force of nature. Also, indeed, the very look.

In Antigone:

http://www.cinemagraphe.com/_imagery/irene-papas/irene-papas-antigone-1961-01.jpg

Angela
19-02-17, 22:58
What an actress, and what a woman: a veritable force of nature. Also, indeed, the very look.

In Antigone:

http://www.cinemagraphe.com/_imagery/irene-papas/irene-papas-antigone-1961-01.jpg

Another actress who has that look:
Caterina Murino, Sardinian actress, in costume in a period film...
http://fr.web.img1.acsta.net/pictures/210/072/21007290_20130521152827025.jpg

http://morungexpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Caterina-Murino.jpg

The above is when she was Solange in the Bond movie with Daniel Craig.

Pax Augusta
20-02-17, 03:20
I think it's a characteristic ancient roman/italic look (and probably etrurian, too); Raggi has always looked genuinely roman/latin to me.
http://www.sansalvo.net/archivi/immagini/2014/ALTRO/1---donna-romana.jpg

That's a Fayum portrait, you shouldn't trust what you find on the internet. Raggi and neither the ancient woman you posted look genuinely Roman/Italic. In fact the ancient woman you posted is the portrait of an Egyptian lady (or a mix of Egyptian and Greek) exhibited and preserved at the Royal Museum of Scotland in Edinburgh.

Source:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fayum_mummy_portraits

Ritratto femminile, fine età traianea, 110-130 d.C.
Tempera su tavola, 42,5 x 23 cm Edimburgo,
National Museums Scotland

http://www.beniculturali.it/mibac/export/MiBAC/sito-MiBAC/Contenuti/Eventi/EventiInEvidenza/InItalia/visualizza_asset.html_963373966.html


The roman lady picture I posted as an example of "roman/italic look" is from a III century mosaic in San Salvo, Abruzzo, an area historically inhabited by various italic tribes and soon romanized.
Anyway I think gracile mediterranean features are so common in the northern mediterranean basin that it's hard to define a border for its frequency. It surely has to do with neolithic expansion IMO.


No way, that's not a mosaic to begin with, it's clearly a tempera painting on wood. And clearly not a III century mosaic from San Salvo, Abruzzo, because, as I've already told you, it's a Faiyum mummy portrait from the Faiyum Oasis in Egypt. The majority of portraits represent native Egyptians, including the Greek settlers. The webiste from where you picked the pic is unreliable (se quelli del portale amatoriale su San Salvo sono così scemi da spacciarla per un mosaico ritrovato là, non è affar nostro. Affar nostro è rimanere accurati, se si è in buona fede).

If you really think that a Fayum portrait represents a genuinely Roman/Italic look, you haven't understood who really were the Romans/Italics (and neither the Etruscans).

Augustus was an Italic.


http://www.civilization.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Augustus-Boston-MFA.jpg


Pompey the Great was an Italic

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/62/c6/56/62c6567c14d3c5aaf55a63b033d7a0a3.jpg


Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa was an Italic.

http://www.temporamagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/06Louv-Agrippa-25-24AC.jpg

Caligula was an Italic

http://www.romanemperors.com/caligula-1.jpg

Aule Metele was an Etruscan.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/L%27Arringatore.jpg


http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/4357b536261b4678b515002c282df6cb/ancient-busts-from-the-roman-period-bbkmny.jpg



Her surname sounds somehow northern, anyway Rome was repopulated in the late middle ages (or maybe even later, I don't remember) with people from Tuscany. The impact of tuscan migration was so strong that it even contributed to modify the local dialect, that was more similar to modern day neapolitan back then (roman is considered a "central" dialect now).

Raggi as surname is spread in too many regions but it peaks in Lombardy. As many people born in Rome, Virginia Raggi could have even 4 grandparents from different regions of Italy and none from Rome/Central Italy.

The Roman dialect wasn't Tuscanized due to the migrations from Tuscany, that weren't huge like you said, but because of the Tuscan cultural and political influence over the Vatican.

Mars
20-02-17, 12:38
Pax you're right, I read an article on this site http://www.sansalvo.net/notizie/varie/14800/il-mosaico-romano-di-piazza-san-vitale-si-racconta-tra-scienza-ipotesi-e-suggestioni and it misled me.
My bad - Colpa mia, mi spiace.
Comunque già Angela l'aveva evidenziato, eh...
Non capisco cosa significhi portare esempi di maschi romani italici, etruschi e quant'altro visto che si parla di donne.
About the roman dialect
Il volgare parlato a Roma nel Medioevo (il romanesco antico o “di prima fase”, documentato dalla trecentesca Cronica dell’Anonimo romano) aveva acquisito varie caratteristiche che lo collegavano ai dialetti meridionali (come il dittongo “napoletano” in parole come uocchi ‘occhi’, tiempo ‘tempo’), mentre in età rinascimentale, specie dopo il Sacco borbonico del 1527 e il conseguente ripopolamento della città, subì una profonda toscanizzazione, che rese il romanesco moderno (o “di seconda fase”) strutturalmente assai prossimo alla lingua di base tosco-fiorentina.
Lo dice la Treccani eh...

Angela
20-02-17, 16:23
There aren't as many named busts or statues of the women of the early Roman nobility, and the general run of statues of women are often copies of Greek art, so I don't know that we could tell much about the "Italic" look from them, even assuming that the Roman nobility was "pure" Italic.

I'd say, though, that if we're going to talk about features, my impression is that the ancient Roman nobility is marked by a preponderance of small, thin-lipped mouths, and rather smaller eyes than those we're discussing, in combination with a long and sometimes bumpy, but not curved nose.

Flavian women:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Salonina_Matidia_Musei_Capitolini_MC889_n2.jpg/1200px-Salonina_Matidia_Musei_Capitolini_MC889_n2.jpg



Perhaps Vibia Sabina might be a good example.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Vibia_Sabina_(Villa_Adriana)_01.jpg/220px-Vibia_Sabina_(Villa_Adriana)_01.jpg

The faces are also quite broad across the cheekbones, and the head shapes are often not very Med at all.

Pax Augusta
20-02-17, 18:14
Pax you're right, I read an article on this site http://www.sansalvo.net/notizie/varie/14800/il-mosaico-romano-di-piazza-san-vitale-si-racconta-tra-scienza-ipotesi-e-suggestioni and it misled me. My bad - Colpa mia, mi spiace.

No prob.



Comunque già Angela l'aveva evidenziato, eh...
Non capisco cosa significhi portare esempi di maschi romani italici, etruschi e quant'altro visto che si parla di donne.

Se quelli sono i maschi italici, come potevano le donne italiche sembrare egiziane o greco-egiziane? Per gli Etruschi è più complicato, non esistendo ritratti realistici fino all'epoca romana. Ammetto che sia al limite dell'azzardo assimilare tutti insieme Romani, Latini, Umbri, Sabini, Piceni, Oschi, Sanniti, e compagnia cantante, ma se è esistito un look Romano/Italico, ed è senz'altro esistito, tra gli italici esisteva il tema dell'appartenenza, era molto diverso da un look profondamente mediterraneo. Ed esistono ancora italiani che sembrano sosia di questi italici, in tutta Italia.

Gneo Pompeo Magno e il toscano Walter Mazzarri sembrano parenti stretti.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3CqhTUYU76s/VJBHruly4MI/AAAAAAAAWSE/FVMzittI3ZU/s1600/pompeo.jpg

http://www.iamnaples.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Mazzarri_SanSiro.jpg

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/67/590x/Watford-Walter-Mazzarri-726063.jpg

http://images2.gazzettaobjects.it/methode_image/2013/05/24/Calcio/Foto%20Gallery/WCGAZ1_0HOLVLYM_MGbig.jpg




About the roman dialect
Il volgare parlato a Roma nel Medioevo (il romanesco antico o “di prima fase”, documentato dalla trecentesca Cronica dell’Anonimo romano) aveva acquisito varie caratteristiche che lo collegavano ai dialetti meridionali (come il dittongo “napoletano” in parole come uocchi ‘occhi’, tiempo ‘tempo’), mentre in età rinascimentale, specie dopo il Sacco borbonico del 1527 e il conseguente ripopolamento della città, subì una profonda toscanizzazione, che rese il romanesco moderno (o “di seconda fase”) strutturalmente assai prossimo alla lingua di base tosco-fiorentina.
Lo dice la Treccani eh...

Of course it's correct. But the Treccani doesn't say that Rome was repopulated (exclusively) by Tuscans and for this reason the Roman dialect underwent a process of Tuscanization, there was no mass migration from Tuscany, but rather there was an important Florentine community composed of merchants, bankers and noble Florentine families in Rome who had a great influence over Rome and the Vatican. This kind of Tuscanization wasn't a phenomenon of people embracing a new dialect, but initially in the 1500/1600 more a phenomenon that involved mainly middle and upper social strata of the Roman population rather than common people. Only gradually the use of a Roman dialect closer to the Tuscan also spread among the lower social strata of the population, who always had an origin very diverse, with people coming from many different parts of Italy. Anyway it was quite a long process according to Tullio De Mauro.

Rome was repopulated even by Corsicans at that time.
Source:
La presenza dei corsi nella Roma del Quattrocento. Prime indagini nei protocolli notarili
http://www.persee.fr/doc/mefr_0223-5110_1986_num_98_2_2876

Ernst, Gerhard
La toscanizzazione del dialetto romanesco nel Quattro e nel Cinquecento
Pisa : Fabrizio Serra, 2011.

Tullio De Mauro,
Storia linguistica dell’Italia unita
Laterza, Bari-Roma [1963], 2003, pp. 24-26

https://ilmediumelepratiche.wordpress.com/tag/toscanizzazione-del-dialetto-romanesco/

ΠΑΝΑΞ
20-02-17, 20:33
Hey there, please classify and geographically "locate" the present mayor of Rome, Virginia Raggi. She's 1.65 m tall.
I hope nobody already posted her, it's my first time on Eupedia after a long break...! :sad-2:

http://www.unionesarda.it/foto/previewfoto/2016/10/10/virginia_raggi-550-340-541594.jpg

http://www.ilsussidiario.net/img/_THUMBWEB/virginiaraggi_zoom1R439_thumb400x275.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Virginia_Raggi_crop.jpg/220px-Virginia_Raggi_crop.jpg

She could well be one fo us! I would say that is a fine sample -but not pure one,- she is a hybrid of a Europid mediterranid stock mostly, with a lesser imput -but in respectable degree- of a secondary element which could possibly be something between of the "twin" and mysterious element of Armenoid (more close to Anatolia and Aegean) and Dinaroid (Balkans and Adriatica).
In short terms, I would classify her as a Mediterranid Armernodinaroid.

@Mars
I am almost sure from what I am seeing from the above post#1 pictures, that there is abscent the alpine element, so I would say that: she is not Alpinid and she is not either Alpinoid, a well dellicate long -in analogy for the dimensions- neck that is not the purrest characteristic of an typical Alpine but rather the opposite, as I also guess that she have -probably- long arms for her stature (armeno/dinaroid imput element to mediterranid majority).
That's what I get to clear myself:


-Pasta with sea food, green salad with balsamic vinegar,dried figs and "fresh" -six months matured, if not less- white wine. A dry martini for the starter and a sambuka shot for the finish to embrace hers origins..! Bottoms Up!
(mediterranid feature! -ha?) ;-)

ΠΑΝΑΞ
20-02-17, 20:37
Surely from a country that has olive trees, :laughing:

...and thyme, oregano, basilic and rosemary...

Yetos solidos.

ΠΑΝΑΞ
20-02-17, 20:47
@AngelaGive back to Greece Astrid Meloni, is ours too..! Caterina Murino with the lila dress, red earings...-heart attack-!
In my next life i will be sardine to let that woman eat me. :-)
Irene Pappas is amazing I would place it to Armenide mediterranoid and it is an amazing stock with very dinstinct features. Pure mediterranide sample could be her "daughter", at Iphigeneia from the same director - M. Cacoyiannis.

Iphigeneia (subtitled) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWIWD1EQRSw)

@Pax Nice points, Nice samples, Nice matches. That italic stock -if i understand well- you mentioned, mostly strike for me with pure Alpinides and in a minor deegree Alpinmediterranoids.

Angela
20-02-17, 21:38
@AngelaGive back to Greece Astrid Meloni, is ours too..! Caterina Murino with the lila dress, red earings...-heart attack-!
In my next life i will be sardine to let that woman eat me. :-)
Irene Pappas is amazing I would place it to Armenide mediterranoid and it is an amazing stock with very dinstinct features. Pure mediterranide sample could be her "daughter", at Iphigeneia from the same director - M. Cacoyiannis.

Iphigeneia (subtitled) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWIWD1EQRSw)

@Pax Nice points, Nice samples, Nice matches. That italic stock -if i understand well- you mentioned, mostly strike for me with pure Alpinides and in a minor deegree Alpinmediterranoids.

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

I like a man who appreciates the beauty of women, even when they get a little more mature!

You can't have any of them back, however. :smile:

Yes, Astrid Meloni has some of that look too, and she's another Sardinian. Among us, Sardinian women are renowned for their beauty.

Some more, just because...the first is part of a jewelry ad campaign she's done...elegance personified
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5042/5247229386_13d976bdbf_b.jpg


Imo she has no flaw, drat her! :)
http://www.baltana.com/files/wallpapers-2/Caterina-Murino-Desktop-Wallpaper-06009.jpg

http://images.movieplayer.it/images/2008/10/15/caterina-murino-e-anna-maria-protagonista-del-terzo-episodio-della-serie-donne-assassine-92945.jpg

I agree about Irene and her daughter. Imo, the daughter is pretty, but the mother is beautiful.