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tahir0010
19-02-17, 01:44
So I posted this question in another forum, and someone sent me a message referring me to here. This guy is turkish, but does he look turkish in your opinion. Do you think that he has more Eastern European features or more North Caucasian features. Or could these features even be Anatolian features? What are you guys thoughts about this. I know Turkey is very diverse because of the long life of the Ottomans. I was even wondering if these features could be Laz but this is a very not well known ethnic group in Turkey. 849584968494

New Englander
19-02-17, 03:16
Picture will not work. However, here is an example of a Syrian. http://www.romanreignswwe.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Sami-Zayn-Wallpapers-2016-1276.jpg

tahir0010
19-02-17, 03:58
I got the picture in there here it is for you https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/760195628395823104/3_DkFrWW.jpg

New Englander
19-02-17, 04:41
Just copy and paste the Image URL.

tahir0010
19-02-17, 04:53
Can you see the ones I just posted in the original sentence. Sorry new to this, but here is the link https://postimg.org/image/qu5zgzm4d/ 8497 (https://postimg.org/image/qu5zgzm4d/)84988499

New Englander
19-02-17, 05:11
https://s6.postimg.org/gwuynxeip/IMG_0318.jpg

Looks distinctly Middle Eastern. I would guess some kind of North Caucasian, Arabid mix. He does not strike me as Eastern European, nor a Turkic Central Asian type.

tahir0010
19-02-17, 05:21
Do you think it could be a mix of the upper Norther Caucasian region of Turkey, and maybe Kurdish that is what I was thinking? I think this image is better. https://s6.postimg.org/8smuj6s3l/IMG_0952.jpg especially from the nose. This is better picture, but for me does not look like northern Europe from nose, and eyes. Especially eye brows usually are not that thick or long on Northern Europeans and the slanted nose at the end makes me think more. Kurdish mixed maybe with Northern Caucasian.

Fire Haired14
19-02-17, 08:47
What part of Turkey is he from? Anyways I agree with New Englander he looks like a stero typical Mid Easterner.

tahir0010
19-02-17, 13:34
He is from Trabzon so the North East near the Caucasus mountains, and near the black sea. So I am wondering if he also has some mix of Kurdish in him?

New Englander
19-02-17, 15:04
Kurdish are Iranians, not Arabs. Most Kurds wont have anything over 15% SW Asian. He looks like he could be mixed with Jewish or Armenian or seems to have those features in part.

Seanp
19-02-17, 15:55
He could be Albanian or Bosniak, but he has more of a Caucasian-Steppe look.

tahir0010
19-02-17, 18:31
Yes Turks did mix with Armenian so it is possible, but also he is from the north east of Turkey near Georgia. So I was wondering Georgian, Chechen, or even Abkhazia. I just do not know where the jewish would come from. In that area unless it came from like parts of Russia. I guess it could even be Tatar or Bashkir.

tahir0010
19-02-17, 18:31
I would think a Macedonian Albanian though not pure blooded. You are from Hungary isn't there a large amount of Albanians in your country?

Valerius
20-02-17, 19:14
I've seen Turkish people with similar looks and light hair or light eyes and they tend to look more like some people from the Caucasian mountains rather than to Europeans.

tahir0010
20-02-17, 19:21
I've seen Turkish people with similar looks and light hair or light eyes and they tend to look more like some people from the Caucasian mountains rather than to Europeans.

Sent from my LG-P710 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

So you think his roots would be Caucasian? Do you think it would be like Assyrian Muslims? Or Ossetian Muslims? Or even from Chechnya.

Valerius
20-02-17, 20:01
So you think his roots would be Caucasian? Do you think it would be like Assyrian Muslims? Or Ossetian Muslims? Or even from Chechnya.

Frankly I have no idea, it's just matter of looks. The modern populations are mix of different people so he could have influences from here and there, not just one source. Mind that the red hair alone is rare but not absent from the Near East.

raspberry
20-02-17, 20:43
Red hair is not unique to Europe. It is a mutation wich occured during a time where no modern ethnicities existed. It occurs in whole Eurasia. Izzet ad Duri, a former Iraqi military commander, has also red hair (besides this he looks like Heisenberg from Breaking Bad :) ).
8501
I dont think that Red hair is a mutation of the "Indo Europeans", rather a mutation of the basal Eurasian people. Below native and "homogenous" Bedouin girl with red hair.
8502
Of course I dont know from where your friend originates, because it is possible that his red hair are a sign of "European" origin (this could be a possibility if he would originate from Western Anatolia).

Angela
20-02-17, 21:14
Gentlemen, I moved the thread because "phenotype" threads belong in anthropology.

Fire Haired14
20-02-17, 23:04
Red hair is not unique to Europe. It is a mutation wich occured during a time where no modern ethnicities existed. It occurs in whole Eurasia. Izzet ad Duri, a former Iraqi military commander, has also red hair (besides this he looks like Heisenberg from Breaking Bad :) ).
8501
I dont think that Red hair is a mutation of the "Indo Europeans", rather a mutation of the basal Eurasian people. Below native and "homogenous" Bedouin girl with red hair.
8502
Of course I dont know from where your friend originates, because it is possible that his red hair are a sign of "European" origin (this could be a possibility if he would originate from Western Anatolia).

That Bedouin girl's hair might be dyed. Even if red hair is from Basal Eurasian, Steppe people can be an important source for red hair today because they had Basal Eurasian ancestry.

Anyways modern red hair frequencies don't suggest red hair has anything to do with Basal Eurasian. But in my opinion there's no reliable way to trace its origin by looking at modern frequencies. Ancient DNA is the only way to trace its origin. And like with other traits its origin probably isn't simplistic.

The only reliable data I know of which tell of red hair frequencies are the frequencies of three true known red hair mutations; R160W, R151C, and D294H.

I know have data for frequencies of those mutations from Western Europe plus few from Eastern Europe; Greece, Poland, and Finland.

Based on this data it looks like Red hair peaks in the Northwest tip of Europe; Britain, Ireland, Scandinavia, Netherlands. It looks like Red hair droughts in Southern Europe; Spain, Italy, and Greece. So far the oldest examples of people with one of those mutations are; Sweden 2000 BC, Russia 2000 BC, Hungary 2000 BC, Germany 1000 BC. The individual from Russia was about 65% Steppe decent, while the individual from Hungary was only 30% and probably an actual redhead.

R160W
Top 5
Norway: 23.5%
Netherlands: 20%
Orkeny Scotland: 19.4%
Sweden: 19.1%
England: 17%

Bottom 5
Greece: 2%
Spain: 2.1%
Sardinia: 2.9%
Italy: 4.8%
South France: 4.8%

R151C
Top 5
Ireland: 24%
Norway: 22%
Orkeny Scotland: 21.3%
England: 19%
Swedish: 16%

Bottom 5
Sardinia: 1%
Greece: 3.3%
South France: 4%
Spain: 4.4%
Paris France: 7.6%

D294H
Top 5
Ireland: 7%
Paris France: 5.7%
Sardinia: 5%
Italy: 4.4%
Spain: 3.7%

Bottom 5
Poland: 0%
Greece: 0%
Finland: 1%
Netherlands: 1.2%
Sweden: 1.3%

raspberry
21-02-17, 00:44
That Bedouin girl's hair might be dyed. Even if red hair is from Basal Eurasian, Steppe people can be an important source for red hair today because they had Basal Eurasian ancestry.

Anyways modern red hair frequencies don't suggest red hair has anything to do with Basal Eurasian. But in my opinion there's no reliable way to trace its origin by looking at modern frequencies. Ancient DNA is the only way to trace its origin. And like with other traits its origin probably isn't simplistic.

The only reliable data I know of which tell of red hair frequencies are the frequencies of three true known red hair mutations; R160W, R151C, and D294H.

I know have data for frequencies of those mutations from Western Europe plus few from Eastern Europe; Greece, Poland, and Finland.

Based on this data it looks like Red hair peaks in the Northwest tip of Europe; Britain, Ireland, Scandinavia, Netherlands. It looks like Red hair droughts in Southern Europe; Spain, Italy, and Greece. So far the oldest examples of people with one of those mutations are; Sweden 2000 BC, Russia 2000 BC, Hungary 2000 BC, Germany 1000 BC. The individual from Russia was about 65% Steppe decent, while the individual from Hungary was only 30% and probably an actual redhead.

R160W
Top 5
Norway: 23.5%
Netherlands: 20%
Orkeny Scotland: 19.4%
Sweden: 19.1%
England: 17%

Bottom 5
Greece: 2%
Spain: 2.1%
Sardinia: 2.9%
Italy: 4.8%
South France: 4.8%

R151C
Top 5
Ireland: 24%
Norway: 22%
Orkeny Scotland: 21.3%
England: 19%
Swedish: 16%

Bottom 5
Sardinia: 1%
Greece: 3.3%
South France: 4%
Spain: 4.4%
Paris France: 7.6%

D294H
Top 5
Ireland: 7%
Paris France: 5.7%
Sardinia: 5%
Italy: 4.4%
Spain: 3.7%

Bottom 5
Poland: 0%
Greece: 0%
Finland: 1%
Netherlands: 1.2%
Sweden: 1.3%
In this case it is her natural hair colour. It could be connected to the steppe, but I think that phenotypical mutations (blue eyes, red hair etc.) are not limited to relatively recent cultures (like the steppe). It could be that red hair was widely spread among these steppe people, but its origins are probably even older. The same for eye colours.. Anyway, I am not an expert on phenotypical mutations.

tahir0010
21-02-17, 06:45
In this case it is her natural hair colour. It could be connected to the steppe, but I think that phenotypical mutations (blue eyes, red hair etc.) are not limited to relatively recent cultures (like the steppe). It could be that red hair was widely spread among these steppe people, but its origins are probably even older. The same for eye colours.. Anyway, I am not an expert on phenotypical mutations.
Do you think this style of nose is definitely more Turkish looking though then European? I personally think the red hair might have come from Tatar sense I know there is high population up in Karadeniz area (black sea area of Turkey)
https://s6.postimg.org/saif1vmwx/IMG_2028.jpg
8503
(https://s6.postimg.org/saif1vmwx/IMG_2028.jpg)

tahir0010
21-02-17, 06:48
Red hair is not unique to Europe. It is a mutation wich occured during a time where no modern ethnicities existed. It occurs in whole Eurasia. Izzet ad Duri, a former Iraqi military commander, has also red hair (besides this he looks like Heisenberg from Breaking Bad :) ).
8501
I dont think that Red hair is a mutation of the "Indo Europeans", rather a mutation of the basal Eurasian people. Below native and "homogenous" Bedouin girl with red hair.
8502
Of course I dont know from where your friend originates, because it is possible that his red hair are a sign of "European" origin (this could be a possibility if he would originate from Western Anatolia).

Sorry I can tell you origins. His great great great ancestors came from Diyarbakir, Mardin, Urfa, and around nothern Iraq. From what he told me, and then they went towards the black sea, or your turkish so you know Karadeniz. So I was wondering if it could be laz, or cerkez. Then finally they went to Bursa, and settled in that area. Also he has traces of Eastern Europe.

Fire Haired14
21-02-17, 08:40
This is just a very hypothetical opinon of mine. I think this light pigmented West Asian guy doesn't look European because he lacks these defining/typical (male)European facial features; Tall, wide, and boxy/square forehead. Boxy/square eye brow bone. Non-protruding, small, somewhat flat nose. Thin almost non existent eyebrow hair.

So in my opinion the ones on the left are typical Europeans. While the ones on the right are clearly West Asian. One of the "Europeans" is heavily West Asian admixed(75% Euro Jewish), and one of the "West Asians" is a European(from Montenegro) who has a closer relation to West Asia than other Europeans.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/CZdeN7_J_N2toOBaV--3wpOQ-q-elEK9CrYZDM_9AiSWxwxfkYvZidVFABI8TuCw_jqxMvXvTe2NG-tU4PRp07abi5kIrJwOt-ajNG9lF-OQrcXN2dgWEcq2SbS8bLsBSjkNvtiohttps://lh4.googleusercontent.com/ug7jePAJUNqOPWhzPBbHW8UBZoWA4CEqb2LU121C1TKLyPwVLU RjFPLmVQf3kP-f6ZmRAwh50pt-ddze0dgqNCKGV6NHPBVjGeEen7lwVtcapuNQzPp1alP56jvgaI MzvXD_0xvhhttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/AyKD67NHAVbrEV_ZuqTABRDHr2In9T2Q8MxgP6-KAKU4Eca0VtEJ4eTwdXzya1QcKAINm7EKaA9PFWuvP1RLM6j8w lTjc7l323vw-5pfwGaGAq1JmELaiUknjc8ICpoOILF6FIiChttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/84FrHna57exPpjbF4rwBwbKpC7mWFsXfie0SoN2hbb3YE0bdLK 12kAW7f7gXJ4XCXWRAi2qLAZqx-YlfU4vQJHSCuREKj-2Jv2dhwDtD4Da3cTHJmW9bJTGA67yDVSM2rS56WcJV

tahir0010
21-02-17, 08:51
This is just a very hypothetical opinon of mine. I think this light pigmented West Asian guy doesn't look European because he lacks these defining/typical (male)European facial features; Tall, wide, and boxy/square forehead. Boxy/square eye brow bone. Non-protruding, small, somewhat flat nose. Thin almost non existent eyebrow hair.

So in my opinion the ones on the left are typical Europeans. While the ones on the right are clearly West Asian. One of the "Europeans" is heavily West Asian admixed(75% Euro
Jewish), and one of the "West Asians" is a European(from Montenegro) who has a closer relation to West Asia than other Europeans.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/CZdeN7_J_N2toOBaV--3wpOQ-q-elEK9CrYZDM_9AiSWxwxfkYvZidVFABI8TuCw_jqxMvXvTe2NG-tU4PRp07abi5kIrJwOt-ajNG9lF-OQrcXN2dgWEcq2SbS8bLsBSjkNvtiohttps://lh4.googleusercontent.com/ug7jePAJUNqOPWhzPBbHW8UBZoWA4CEqb2LU121C1TKLyPwVLU RjFPLmVQf3kP-f6ZmRAwh50pt-ddze0dgqNCKGV6NHPBVjGeEen7lwVtcapuNQzPp1alP56jvgaI MzvXD_0xvhhttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/AyKD67NHAVbrEV_ZuqTABRDHr2In9T2Q8MxgP6-KAKU4Eca0VtEJ4eTwdXzya1QcKAINm7EKaA9PFWuvP1RLM6j8w lTjc7l323vw-5pfwGaGAq1JmELaiUknjc8ICpoOILF6FIiChttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/84FrHna57exPpjbF4rwBwbKpC7mWFsXfie0SoN2hbb3YE0bdLK 12kAW7f7gXJ4XCXWRAi2qLAZqx-YlfU4vQJHSCuREKj-2Jv2dhwDtD4Da3cTHJmW9bJTGA67yDVSM2rS56WcJV

So for example like the pictures I posted above these hooked nose and these kind of things are less of a European trait like this so these hooked noses, and thicker eyebrows is more of a East Asian thing? Also in the picture I linked do you know what could cause the hooked nose. https://s6.postimg.org/saif1vmwx/IMG_2028.jpg


(https://s6.postimg.org/saif1vmwx/IMG_2028.jpg)

Aaron1981
21-02-17, 15:04
I've known a red headed Turk from Azerbaijan. He was even lighter haired and more west European looking than the guy in the OP. The sequence of 4 men there. The top 2 look European, bottom two look part Middle Eastern. I know top right is Adam Levine, and is at least part Ashkenazi Jewish, but look standard European. The bottom right guy is the Armenian origin singer from System of a Down, and definitely would look atypical in north European countries, along with the guy on the bottom left, whoever that is.

raspberry
21-02-17, 19:53
Sorry I can tell you origins. His great great great ancestors came from Diyarbakir, Mardin, Urfa, and around nothern Iraq. From what he told me, and then they went towards the black sea, or your turkish so you know Karadeniz. So I was wondering if it could be laz, or cerkez. Then finally they went to Bursa, and settled in that area. Also he has traces of Eastern Europe.
Interesting. I am (also?) an Arab from Mardin :). Actually there are native people here who have red hair but still I cant say for sure. How about an autosomal test? That could answer his questions and is a more reliable source than any of our personal opinions.

Fire Haired14
21-02-17, 20:08
I've known a red headed Turk from Azerbaijan. He was even lighter haired and more west European looking than the guy in the OP. The sequence of 4 men there. The top 2 look European, bottom two look part Middle Eastern. I know top right is Adam Levine, and is at least part Ashkenazi Jewish, but look standard European. The bottom right guy is the Armenian origin singer from System of a Down, and definitely would look atypical in north European countries, along with the guy on the bottom left, whoever that is.

He's an NBA basketball player from Motenegro.

New Englander
28-02-17, 18:10
Why is red hair so low in Iberia? Its Mostly R1b, and more northern Shifted. Red hair is prob Y-DNA I1 related.

tahir0010
01-03-17, 01:26
I feel like it is very high in Iberia... Especially in Iberia peninsula in Morocco. Well it is not high, but there is high populations of red hair among Moroccan Berbers, and some Algerians. I have also read that red hair was actually a Indo Iranian thing, and then moved over time. Even there is pictures of ancient greeks and Iranians with red hair. I think it was originally a eastern thing and then moved to Northern Europe.

ToBeOrNotToBe
09-02-19, 19:06
He is from Trabzon so the North East near the Caucasus mountains, and near the black sea. So I am wondering if he also has some mix of Kurdish in him?

First thing I find about this on Eupedia, and it confirms what I said (though this person doesn't know where the Caucasus mountains are apparently). Not a coincidence. Distant origins don't explain it.