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Tomenable
22-02-17, 14:05
They had Y-DNA haplogroups L-M20 and R2, no any R1 was found, as expected:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.fr/2017/02/rumors-leaks-thread.html

MarkoZ
22-02-17, 14:46
At least wait until they actually publish something. This is just bullshit.

Coriolan
23-02-17, 07:01
I understand that there would be no haplogroup R1a or R1b in the Indus Valley Civilization because it predates the Indo-European migrations. But wouldn't haplogroup J2 be one of the principal components? Perhaps some G too. Where did they get their agriculture from?

Tomenable
23-02-17, 11:11
At least wait until they actually publish something. This is just bullshit.

When Davidski posts some "leaks", it usually turns out to be true.


I understand that there would be no haplogroup R1a or R1b in the Indus Valley Civilization because it predates the Indo-European migrations. But wouldn't haplogroup J2 be one of the principal components? Perhaps some G too. Where did they get their agriculture from?

There was R2 in Neolithic Iran, so maybe R2 migrated from there?

bicicleur
23-02-17, 12:17
Iran neolithic farmers/herders migrated to India and Pakistan since 9.5 ka.
That would have been J2a, R2 and T.
Question is where those Indus Valley Civilization came from 4000 year later.

MarkoZ
23-02-17, 13:10
R2 isn't very well researched, but frequency and basal diversity seem to decrease from east to west, no? If those results turn out to be true, we must be dealing with a population that didn't yet receive much paternal input from the neolithic epicenters

Tomenable
23-02-17, 13:22
but frequency and basal diversity seem to decrease from east to west, no?

R2 was probably replaced by new immigrants in the west, while surviving better in the east.

Anyway - modern Y-DNA distributions usually have nothing to do with ancient distributions.


If those results turn out to be true, we must be dealing with a population that didn't yet receive much paternal input from the neolithic epicenters

R1 haplogroup was simply not present in the neolithic epicenters:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33519-The-Neolithic-Transition-in-the-Baltic-Was-Not-Driven-by-Admixture-with-Early-Europea/page14?p=501515#post501515

bicicleur
23-02-17, 14:05
R2 isn't very well researched, but frequency and basal diversity seem to decrease from east to west, no? If those results turn out to be true, we must be dealing with a population that didn't yet receive much paternal input from the neolithic epicenters

check the TMRCA dates for R2 on Yfull

you'll see that R2 started to expand after 9 ka, the time first agriculturists arrived in India/Pakistan

MOESAN
23-02-17, 15:03
Just an out of topic remark: I prefer the tone in Eupedia to the one in Eurogenes!

Sorry, Moesan. I meant to give you a heads up.

MarkoZ
23-02-17, 18:11
check the TMRCA dates for R2 on Yfull

you'll see that R2 started to expand after 9 ka, the time first agriculturists arrived in India/Pakistan

For the most common lineages that might be true, but what about the very old R2 Pakistan and vicinity? I don't really have a firm opinion on this, but what makes you so certain that R2 spread from Iran? I'm not aware not aware of any ancient samples in this case.

I'd think that the distribution of R2 mimics the spread of the South-Central Asian Epipaleolithic, with a center that lies rather to the east. Though a later back-migration with agriculture is possible, of course.

MOESAN
23-02-17, 22:51
is prefering polite debates a sin today?

bicicleur
23-02-17, 23:50
For the most common lineages that might be true, but what about the very old R2 Pakistan and vicinity? I don't really have a firm opinion on this, but what makes you so certain that R2 spread from Iran? I'm not aware not aware of any ancient samples in this case.

I'd think that the distribution of R2 mimics the spread of the South-Central Asian Epipaleolithic, with a center that lies rather to the east. Though a later back-migration with agriculture is possible, of course.

2 samples from the Iranian neolithic ca 9,7 ka where haplogroup R2

ThirdTerm
24-02-17, 00:22
The two maps in the OP show a strong association between haplogroup L-M20 and the Indus Valley Civilization. McElreavey et al. (‎2005) found that L-M20 spread in the Indus Valley around 7,000 years ago, which may be associated with the expansion of local farming groups during the Neolithic period. L-M20 has a higher frequency among Dravidian castes, while it's rare among Indo-Aryan castes, and the Indo-Aryan migration into the northern Punjab started shortly after the decline of the Indus-Valley Civilization, which may confirm a theory that it was a Dravidian civilization.



In striking contrast to the mtDNA data, there is no strong evidence in Pakistani populations of Y-chromosome signatures of the early inhabitants of the region following the African exodus (Qamar et al. 2002, Zerjal et al. 2002), with their Y-chromosomes largely replaced by subsequent migrations or gene flow. The Y-chromosome gene pool of Pakistani populations is mainly attributable to western Eurasian lineages, particularly from the Middle East (Qamar et al. 2002). Conversely, few traces of East Asian haplogroups are observed in the Indus Valley populations. One Y-chromosome haplogroup (L-M20) has a high mean frequency of 14% in Pakistan and so differs from all other haplogroups in its frequency distribution. L-M20 is also observed, although at lower frequencies, in neighbouring countries, such as India, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Russia. Both the frequency distribution and estimated expansion time (7000 YBP) of this lineage suggest that its spread in the Indus Valley may be associated with the expansion of local farming groups during the Neolithic period (Qamar et al. 2002).

Fire Haired14
24-02-17, 05:24
Yhg L1a has been found in Chalcolithic or Bronze age Armenia. Apparently the Indus Valley genomes also have lots of ASI. If Indus Valley people are representative of other Indians from that time period, then the out of India theory is either disproven or it involved little gene flow.

Y DNA L and R2 aren't a surprise at all. No one should have expected R1a. It's been obvious for two years, every since we got Yamnaya and Sintashta Y DNA, that Asian R1a Z93 and R1b Z2103 are of European Steppe origin. Both mtDNA and autosomal DNA indicate SC Asians; Pashutens, Tajicks, have a lot of Steppe ancestry. They may have as much as Europeans. Also I'm pretty confident Middle Easterners(specifically; Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Armenia) have Steppe ancestry which can explain their R1b Z2103.

MarkoZ
24-02-17, 10:25
2 samples from the Iranian neolithic ca 9,7 ka where haplogroup R2

It's from Genetiker, I see. But that actually solidifies the case for an origin in India or close to it, considering the age of R-M124 and the fact that the Ganj Dareh herders carry a component centered in Bengal that looks quite foreign in Neolithic West Asia. Though that still leaves a back-migration of a major part of R-M124 into India with agriculture. Without samples from Central Asia that's kind of difficult to discern at the time.

MarkoZ
24-02-17, 10:35
No one should have expected R1a. It's been obvious for two years, every since we got Yamnaya and Sintashta Y DNA, that Asian R1a Z93 and R1b Z2103 are of European Steppe origin. Both mtDNA and autosomal DNA indicate SC Asians; Pashutens, Tajicks, have a lot of Steppe ancestry. They may have as much as Europeans. Also I'm pretty confident Middle Easterners(specifically; Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Armenia) have Steppe ancestry which can explain their R1b Z2103.

Let's just wait and see until we get samples from the relevant areas, i. e. the places where R1a diversification likely took place as identified by Underhill, for example.

MOESAN
24-02-17, 17:43
India and Pakistan are vaste countries; the today distributions of diverse haplos can have changed by time - the previous routes for Y-R2 by instance would have been more along North India that across South India even if today its concentrations are along the East shores - we need more precise subclades of the Iran Y-R2 to make our opinion, I think, but Y-R2 could have rovered from North India to East Iran since a long time - concerning the Y-R1b/R1a I'm still tempted to think they developped first between Bactriana/Sogdiana regions, West Altay, South Siberia and Caspian - the old models found in Iran or around are ancient "bridge-heads" but I don't see this southern place as the hearth of these Y-haplos - I'm pretty sure Harappa was a composite pops with newcomers at some stage before IEans but I doubt it was at this time a stronghold for Y-R1 of any sort, but I can mistake as everyone - I would bet Harappa was speaking one or more than one language, but rather agglutinative, like Dravidian, Elamite or Sumerian -
but wait and see is still the best conclusion to date; the mode is to the 'leaks', I know... publicity?

johen
24-02-17, 19:07
1. Why only 2 Hg?
The skulls found of Harrap and Mahenjo-daro belonged to proto-Australoid, Mongoloid, Mediterrean and Alphine races.
http://reference.indianetzone.com/1/origin_people.htm

I always think that a civilization would be created by multi cultural (ethical) people like silicon valley or by bronze culture invasion to neolithic farming society

Adding arsenic to copper, according to R. F. Tylecote (1992: 7-15 and 18-19),can considerably enhance the hardness of the metal and was an important metallurgicalpractice before the Bronze Age that spread from Mesopotamia to many parts of theAfiican and Eurasian continents including Tepe Yahya (3800-3500 BCE) in Iran andHarappa (2500-2000 BCE) in the Indus Valley.

2. But if the op is true, did R2 make IVC similar to mesamerican civilization?
"harappan, indus and mesopotamian civilization did not totally disappear and instead many escaped to china, pacific island and america": of course, this statement is not true, b/c mesoamerican culture was local.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Obgdz8auwkMC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=harappan,+indus+and+mesopotamian+civilization+d id+not+totally+disappear+and+instead+many+escaped+ to+china,+pacific+island+and+america&source=bl&ots=c6aPBTA3__&sig=mz7krWJ8KealmI_wE7zFTCJA1l0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzrru2oqnSAhVN52MKHYzXDggQ6AEIGjAA#v=on epage&q=harappan%2C%20indus%20and%20mesopotamian%20civil ization%20did%20not%20totally%20disappear%20and%20 instead%20many%20escaped%20to%20china%2C%20pacific %20island%20and%20america&f=false

3. Is this Harappa artefact similar to ANE-related people? If only 2 Hg were in IVC, this one would be R2.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qpnr4w-iIR4/TYX2ixhHNlI/AAAAAAAABVY/e52RbeBzgz8/s1600/indusmask.jpg

okunevo:
http://siberiantimes.com/PICTURES/SCIENCE/Tisul-Okunevo-figurine/inside_figurine_left.jpg

MagnusAurelius
01-03-17, 18:49
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia


What about Haplogroup H? I thought they were most associated with Dravidians, seems they is the case but Haplogroup O seems to be the highest among actual indigenous Indians.


So it is concluded the Indus Valley Civilization was all Haplogroup L and R2? Haplogroup R2 comes from the same root, Haplogroup R itself so how can it be that the lowest Castes/Dravidians who are highly admixed people since they are around 30-50% ANI (Ancestraal North Indian) ancestrally and a large number of their population has R2. The essential reason for this could very well be that the Indian Caucasoids who were non-Indo European speakers spread R2 aas the males mixed with the indigenous peoples of India there for bringing the Dravidian Race into existence which started the Indus Valley Civilization. Look at the actual Indigenous primitives of India today, they are not developed at all, I think it is obvious that modern Dravidians are the result of Non-Indo European speaking Caucasoids breeding/mixing with the primitive indigenous population.


But is it R2a? R2A supposedly comes from central asia.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R2 This is highly significant for Tamil Brahmins who look Caucasoid (most of them) and have very unique origins.


https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-origins-of-Tamil-Brahmins


I believe there was a non-Indo European speaking population residing in India for a very long time since pre-historic times, these people effectively brought civilization to the primitive indigenous people and mixed with them a lott.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA) How was no Haplogroup H found? I used to think this Haaplogroup had non-Caucasoid indigenous Indian origins but it's ancestor comes from central asia and there are some subclades of this group that has a small presence in Europe so there is no way these could have been indigenous Indians.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_LT Haplogroup L is also of Caucasoid origin but one must not consistently draw contrasts between Physical Anthropology and Genetics, in some cases that falls into being Pseudo Science.


Haplogroup C and O are the earliest people on the Indian Sub continent and are associated with the Aboriginal non-Caucasoid indigenous population who branched off from the Australoid race. The introduction of all these Y-DNA haplogroups who original have descendants in Cental Asia/Eurasia were the migrating Caucasoids who effectively mixed with these primitives and gave them Civilization.