I read a thread titled "Slavery and non-consensual sex in Islam"
And I admit I was furious. My post is longer than the original thread. So I decided to post it in a separate thread
I pretty sure that it will upset 95% of you, but you always read the same things, its not going to heart to read the point of
view of the other side for once.
Why do you title the thread as "in Islam"? is that what Muslims believe today?
If you say that I mean this is what Islam says, not muslims. I say how do you determine what Islam says based on one muslim? (is he?) I don't know what Islam say about slavery and thats not my point, but what I'm trying to say is that the method is wrong, to determine what a religion say from what a single person said.
Any way, what he said is crazy but that does not need explanation its obvious.
Slavery is slavery, there is not good or bad slavery. But its very well established that modern (past few centuries) western slavery is unprecedented in human history in its scale, cruelty, deterministic justification (some people are deterministically superior by their nature, i.e skull size), ethical justification, motives..etc. This is very obvious and to say otherwise shows hidden bias.
Another very important factor is that recent western slavery happened under modern ethics and morals of human rights, where previous people (including ancient Europe) had another moral system that may justify slavery, so it is worst when you do something and know that it is wrong.
Thats bad but child jockey and these kind of stuff are extremely rare and are not of the same magnitude (I never knew about it) nor is it the same as other the sides of western slavery that I explained. This is not "an attack on the west" nor is this the motivation of saying such things, to the contrary this is a response to the defamation tsunami on the people of the middle east.
400 years of this is not the same the same as isolated cases of child jockeys nor the same as old traditional slavery that all nations had ( which is all bad)including europeans before recent slavery. These are black workers in Congo, led to work like this. I saw in a documentary that they put their wives in cages and if the workers don't bring the required amount of rubber they kill or rape the wife.
Also there was the act of Mutilation:
Cawthorne, Nigel. The World's Worst Atrocities, 1999. Octopus Publishing Group.
to scare the workers into not slacking
Hochschild, King Leopold's Ghost, 166
This is not a cultural thing for muslims and Islamic countries, why cite it as such? Its a normal (but not ethical) practice in growing countries. In the west up to recent decades the workers had worst conditions. In 1911 the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory burnt in fire and 146 workers died and 71 injured (mostly immigrants) because the factory locked the doors on the workers for the whole daytime so they can work more (no breaks). Their salaries was:
We only know about this because of the fire. Similar practices exisited and continued for a while, for workers, and also for blacks (Segregation until 1965)
Keep in mind that I'm not saying don't condemn such practices in the middle east. Everybody should condemn it and I encourage you to do so, but don't cite it in the context of describing characteristics of the "muslim world" and its values because its not, thats economically driven.
But even then (i.e: even if you wanted to condemn this horrible treatment of workers in some middle eastern countries out of sheer care about human rights), you should naturally care about things more important than this, like involving in a military coup in another country for example?
source: dailysabah and other agencies
Gülen, from a mansion in the U.S guarded by the F.B.I, attempts a coup in one of the most strategic countries in the world, and the U.S does not know? and has nothing to do with it? wow is Gülen that powerful to the point that he single handedly changes international politics from the heart of the American empire?
Turkey announced that it sent to USA 16 (around 16?) boxes of paper evidence to the U.S that Gulen plotted the coup. U.S still refuse to hand him over! this is far greater than any human rights violation, to try to control a whole nation (remember proven U.S supported coups: 1953 Iranian coup, south America..etc)
So if you really love human rights that much stop writing about less important stuff such as "Slavery and non-consensual sex in Islam", and about how in the middle east some countries miss treat workers, and talk about more important subjects like attempting coups at other people's countries. Or not talk at all and mind your own business
These are prisoners not slaves. And these practices are not socially accepted and justified, hence the revolution!
Wrong comparison, but I will give you a right comparison:
1,000,000 people killed in Iraq from the American invasion
5,000,000 orphans
1,000,000 widows
6,000,000 refugees
For what? Because Iraq supported terrorists? weapons of mass destruction? of course no
Its because Saddam refused to go along with western policies like other puppets, not that I like him but this is the true reason not WMD.
The result? 60 and 70 years contracts of oil production for American and British companies, and a government closer to the U.S
and a political system made by the U.S in which they and Iran put their men in key positions
Only in 1962 has the Algerian Revolution against french colonization ended. 300,000 civilians died at the minimum, probably up to 700,000 and Algeria officially claims they are 1,000,000. French colonization of Algeria was different than any other colony, they came there to settle and occupy. 1,000,000 Europeans settlers were living there permanently (10% of the population), unlike other French colonies where it was elite rule. It was like South Africa and Palestine. But thankfully Algerians managed to kick most of the 1,000,000 colonists out, otherwise if they failed then they would be asked today to "live with them in peace and harmony and forget your differences" and any attempt to regain their land would be considered "terrorism"
Isn't this a dangerous ideology to the world? unlimited quest for hegemony? I think this is a more serious issue than "Slavery and non-consensual sex in Islam" and woman not driving in Saudi Arabia. Don't we have the right to fear this extremist ideology? invasions, coups, intervention, media propaganda. Whats the end goal? when is enough? Then when a bunch of extremists who are fueled by frustration of such endless aggression and hopeless puppet governments and do horrible things you think that this is the action, not the reaction. Of course no terrorism is justified, but this is an explanation of the motives not a justification of the actions.
And immigration is also a reaction, as I mentioned, 6,000,000 Iraqi refuges are direct result of American invasion! Opposing immigration is normal and understandable, I don't think its racists or wrong. But a large degree of it (not all of it) is caused by your own ruling oligarchy that is waging aggression against our countries for their own narrow interests, not yours! you don't even know about that and being manipulated too. They will always market their aggression to the European public as necessary for survival, but as Chomsky explained in his book (Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance) the goal is Hegemony, not survival. If you need an example of who and how they manipulate you search for this documentary Youtube (Decade of Deception)
And I admit I was furious. My post is longer than the original thread. So I decided to post it in a separate thread
I pretty sure that it will upset 95% of you, but you always read the same things, its not going to heart to read the point of
view of the other side for once.
Why do you title the thread as "in Islam"? is that what Muslims believe today?
If you say that I mean this is what Islam says, not muslims. I say how do you determine what Islam says based on one muslim? (is he?) I don't know what Islam say about slavery and thats not my point, but what I'm trying to say is that the method is wrong, to determine what a religion say from what a single person said.
Any way, what he said is crazy but that does not need explanation its obvious.
Slavery is slavery, there is not good or bad slavery. But its very well established that modern (past few centuries) western slavery is unprecedented in human history in its scale, cruelty, deterministic justification (some people are deterministically superior by their nature, i.e skull size), ethical justification, motives..etc. This is very obvious and to say otherwise shows hidden bias.
Another very important factor is that recent western slavery happened under modern ethics and morals of human rights, where previous people (including ancient Europe) had another moral system that may justify slavery, so it is worst when you do something and know that it is wrong.
Thats bad but child jockey and these kind of stuff are extremely rare and are not of the same magnitude (I never knew about it) nor is it the same as other the sides of western slavery that I explained. This is not "an attack on the west" nor is this the motivation of saying such things, to the contrary this is a response to the defamation tsunami on the people of the middle east.
400 years of this is not the same the same as isolated cases of child jockeys nor the same as old traditional slavery that all nations had ( which is all bad)including europeans before recent slavery. These are black workers in Congo, led to work like this. I saw in a documentary that they put their wives in cages and if the workers don't bring the required amount of rubber they kill or rape the wife.
Also there was the act of Mutilation:
Cawthorne, Nigel. The World's Worst Atrocities, 1999. Octopus Publishing Group.
to scare the workers into not slacking
Hochschild, King Leopold's Ghost, 166
This is not a cultural thing for muslims and Islamic countries, why cite it as such? Its a normal (but not ethical) practice in growing countries. In the west up to recent decades the workers had worst conditions. In 1911 the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory burnt in fire and 146 workers died and 71 injured (mostly immigrants) because the factory locked the doors on the workers for the whole daytime so they can work more (no breaks). Their salaries was:
We only know about this because of the fire. Similar practices exisited and continued for a while, for workers, and also for blacks (Segregation until 1965)
Keep in mind that I'm not saying don't condemn such practices in the middle east. Everybody should condemn it and I encourage you to do so, but don't cite it in the context of describing characteristics of the "muslim world" and its values because its not, thats economically driven.
But even then (i.e: even if you wanted to condemn this horrible treatment of workers in some middle eastern countries out of sheer care about human rights), you should naturally care about things more important than this, like involving in a military coup in another country for example?
source: dailysabah and other agencies
Gülen, from a mansion in the U.S guarded by the F.B.I, attempts a coup in one of the most strategic countries in the world, and the U.S does not know? and has nothing to do with it? wow is Gülen that powerful to the point that he single handedly changes international politics from the heart of the American empire?
Turkey announced that it sent to USA 16 (around 16?) boxes of paper evidence to the U.S that Gulen plotted the coup. U.S still refuse to hand him over! this is far greater than any human rights violation, to try to control a whole nation (remember proven U.S supported coups: 1953 Iranian coup, south America..etc)
So if you really love human rights that much stop writing about less important stuff such as "Slavery and non-consensual sex in Islam", and about how in the middle east some countries miss treat workers, and talk about more important subjects like attempting coups at other people's countries. Or not talk at all and mind your own business
These are prisoners not slaves. And these practices are not socially accepted and justified, hence the revolution!
Wrong comparison, but I will give you a right comparison:
1,000,000 people killed in Iraq from the American invasion
5,000,000 orphans
1,000,000 widows
6,000,000 refugees
For what? Because Iraq supported terrorists? weapons of mass destruction? of course no
Its because Saddam refused to go along with western policies like other puppets, not that I like him but this is the true reason not WMD.
The result? 60 and 70 years contracts of oil production for American and British companies, and a government closer to the U.S
and a political system made by the U.S in which they and Iran put their men in key positions
Only in 1962 has the Algerian Revolution against french colonization ended. 300,000 civilians died at the minimum, probably up to 700,000 and Algeria officially claims they are 1,000,000. French colonization of Algeria was different than any other colony, they came there to settle and occupy. 1,000,000 Europeans settlers were living there permanently (10% of the population), unlike other French colonies where it was elite rule. It was like South Africa and Palestine. But thankfully Algerians managed to kick most of the 1,000,000 colonists out, otherwise if they failed then they would be asked today to "live with them in peace and harmony and forget your differences" and any attempt to regain their land would be considered "terrorism"
Isn't this a dangerous ideology to the world? unlimited quest for hegemony? I think this is a more serious issue than "Slavery and non-consensual sex in Islam" and woman not driving in Saudi Arabia. Don't we have the right to fear this extremist ideology? invasions, coups, intervention, media propaganda. Whats the end goal? when is enough? Then when a bunch of extremists who are fueled by frustration of such endless aggression and hopeless puppet governments and do horrible things you think that this is the action, not the reaction. Of course no terrorism is justified, but this is an explanation of the motives not a justification of the actions.
And immigration is also a reaction, as I mentioned, 6,000,000 Iraqi refuges are direct result of American invasion! Opposing immigration is normal and understandable, I don't think its racists or wrong. But a large degree of it (not all of it) is caused by your own ruling oligarchy that is waging aggression against our countries for their own narrow interests, not yours! you don't even know about that and being manipulated too. They will always market their aggression to the European public as necessary for survival, but as Chomsky explained in his book (Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance) the goal is Hegemony, not survival. If you need an example of who and how they manipulate you search for this documentary Youtube (Decade of Deception)
