View Full Version : Slavery and non-consensual sex in Islam is not a subject of priority

24-02-17, 01:02
I read a thread titled "Slavery and non-consensual sex in Islam"
And I admit I was furious. My post is longer than the original thread. So I decided to post it in a separate thread
I pretty sure that it will upset 95% of you, but you always read the same things, its not going to heart to read the point of
view of the other side for once.

Why do you title the thread as "in Islam"? is that what Muslims believe today?
If you say that I mean this is what Islam says, not muslims. I say how do you determine what Islam says based on one muslim? (is he?) I don't know what Islam say about slavery and thats not my point, but what I'm trying to say is that the method is wrong, to determine what a religion say from what a single person said.
Any way, what he said is crazy but that does not need explanation its obvious.

When the conversation would briefly flip to historic slavery in the Arab and Turkish World slavery was described by Brown in glowing terms. Indeed, according to Brown, slaves in the Muslim World lived a pretty good life.

Slavery is slavery, there is not good or bad slavery. But its very well established that modern (past few centuries) western slavery is unprecedented in human history in its scale, cruelty, deterministic justification (some people are deterministically superior by their nature, i.e skull size), ethical justification, motives..etc. This is very obvious and to say otherwise shows hidden bias.

Another very important factor is that recent western slavery happened under modern ethics and morals of human rights, where previous people (including ancient Europe) had another moral system that may justify slavery, so it is worst when you do something and know that it is wrong.

Absent from his talk (until challenged) was any recognition of the rampant abuse of workers in the Gulf, the thousands of workers in the Gulf dying on construction sites, the South Asian child camel-jockeys imported into the United Arab Emirates to race camels under harsh conditions,

Thats bad but child jockey and these kind of stuff are extremely rare and are not of the same magnitude (I never knew about it) nor is it the same as other the sides of western slavery that I explained. This is not "an attack on the west" nor is this the motivation of saying such things, to the contrary this is a response to the defamation tsunami on the people of the middle east.


400 years of this is not the same the same as isolated cases of child jockeys nor the same as old traditional slavery that all nations had ( which is all bad)including europeans before recent slavery. These are black workers in Congo, led to work like this. I saw in a documentary that they put their wives in cages and if the workers don't bring the required amount of rubber they kill or rape the wife.

Also there was the act of Mutilation:

Failure to meet the rubber collection quotas was punishable by death. Meanwhile, the Force Publique were required to provide the hand of their victims as proof when they had shot and killed someone, as it was believed that they would otherwise use the munitions (imported from Europe at considerable cost) for hunting.

Cawthorne, Nigel. The World's Worst Atrocities, 1999. Octopus Publishing Group.

A Catholic priest quotes a man, Tswambe, speaking of the hated state official Léon Fiévez, who ran a district along the river 500 kilometres (300 mi) north of Stanley Pool:
All blacks saw this man as the devil of the Equator...From all the bodies killed in the field, you had to cut off the hands. He wanted to see the number of hands cut off by each soldier, who had to bring them in baskets...A village which refused to provide rubber would be completely swept clean

to scare the workers into not slacking

Soldiers made young men kill or rape their own mothers and sisters

Hochschild, King Leopold's Ghost, 166

and the Force Publique soldiers were paid their bonuses on the basis of how many hands they collected.

abuse of workers in the Gulf, the thousands of workers in the Gulf dying on construction sites,

This is not a cultural thing for muslims and Islamic countries, why cite it as such? Its a normal (but not ethical) practice in growing countries. In the west up to recent decades the workers had worst conditions. In 1911 the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory burnt in fire and 146 workers died and 71 injured (mostly immigrants) because the factory locked the doors on the workers for the whole daytime so they can work more (no breaks). Their salaries was:

earning for their 52 hours of work between $7 and $12 a week, the equivalent of $171 to $293 a week in 2016 currency, or $3.20 to $5.50 per hour

We only know about this because of the fire. Similar practices exisited and continued for a while, for workers, and also for blacks (Segregation until 1965)

Keep in mind that I'm not saying don't condemn such practices in the middle east. Everybody should condemn it and I encourage you to do so, but don't cite it in the context of describing characteristics of the "muslim world" and its values because its not, thats economically driven.

But even then (i.e: even if you wanted to condemn this horrible treatment of workers in some middle eastern countries out of sheer care about human rights), you should naturally care about things more important than this, like involving in a military coup in another country for example?

Turkey's Chief of Staff Hulusi Akar said Monday in his testimony during prosecution that the putschists tried to make him speak to Fethullah Gülen, the leader of the Gülenist Terror Organization (FETÖ) and the shadowy Gülen Movement.
Akar stated that Brigadier General Hakan Evrim tried to convince him to talk to Gülen during the coup attempt, but he refused to do so.
He added that he tried to persuade coup-plotting officers to give up their attempt before anyone was killed.

source: dailysabah and other agencies

Gülen, from a mansion in the U.S guarded by the F.B.I, attempts a coup in one of the most strategic countries in the world, and the U.S does not know? and has nothing to do with it? wow is Gülen that powerful to the point that he single handedly changes international politics from the heart of the American empire?

Turkey announced that it sent to USA 16 (around 16?) boxes of paper evidence to the U.S that Gulen plotted the coup. U.S still refuse to hand him over! this is far greater than any human rights violation, to try to control a whole nation (remember proven U.S supported coups: 1953 Iranian coup, south America..etc)

The three CIA people supporting Gülen’s Green Card application in 2007 were former US Ambassador to Turkey, Morton Abramowitz, CIA official George Fidas and Graham E. Fuller

So if you really love human rights that much stop writing about less important stuff such as "Slavery and non-consensual sex in Islam", and about how in the middle east some countries miss treat workers, and talk about more important subjects like attempting coups at other people's countries. Or not talk at all and mind your own business

or the horrific conditions of prisoners in the Muslim World (the latest news being 13,000 prisoners executed in Syria

These are prisoners not slaves. And these practices are not socially accepted and justified, hence the revolution!
Wrong comparison, but I will give you a right comparison:
1,000,000 people killed in Iraq from the American invasion
5,000,000 orphans
1,000,000 widows
6,000,000 refugees

For what? Because Iraq supported terrorists? weapons of mass destruction? of course no
Its because Saddam refused to go along with western policies like other puppets, not that I like him but this is the true reason not WMD.
The result? 60 and 70 years contracts of oil production for American and British companies, and a government closer to the U.S
and a political system made by the U.S in which they and Iran put their men in key positions
Only in 1962 has the Algerian Revolution against french colonization ended. 300,000 civilians died at the minimum, probably up to 700,000 and Algeria officially claims they are 1,000,000. French colonization of Algeria was different than any other colony, they came there to settle and occupy. 1,000,000 Europeans settlers were living there permanently (10% of the population), unlike other French colonies where it was elite rule. It was like South Africa and Palestine. But thankfully Algerians managed to kick most of the 1,000,000 colonists out, otherwise if they failed then they would be asked today to "live with them in peace and harmony and forget your differences" and any attempt to regain their land would be considered "terrorism"

Isn't this a dangerous ideology to the world? unlimited quest for hegemony? I think this is a more serious issue than "Slavery and non-consensual sex in Islam" and woman not driving in Saudi Arabia. Don't we have the right to fear this extremist ideology? invasions, coups, intervention, media propaganda. Whats the end goal? when is enough? Then when a bunch of extremists who are fueled by frustration of such endless aggression and hopeless puppet governments and do horrible things you think that this is the action, not the reaction. Of course no terrorism is justified, but this is an explanation of the motives not a justification of the actions.

And immigration is also a reaction, as I mentioned, 6,000,000 Iraqi refuges are direct result of American invasion! Opposing immigration is normal and understandable, I don't think its racists or wrong. But a large degree of it (not all of it) is caused by your own ruling oligarchy that is waging aggression against our countries for their own narrow interests, not yours! you don't even know about that and being manipulated too. They will always market their aggression to the European public as necessary for survival, but as Chomsky explained in his book (Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance) the goal is Hegemony, not survival. If you need an example of who and how they manipulate you search for this documentary Youtube (Decade of Deception)

24-02-17, 15:44
I'm afraid you missed the point of my thread. It was meant to show the lengths to which some apologists will go in defending Islam, without any outcry from the academic institutions which hire them.

Yes, the man is a Muslim, and also " he has been associate professor at Georgetown University’s Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service. In 2014, he was appointed Chair of Islamic Civilization. He is the editor in chief of the Oxford Encyclopedia of Islam and Law.
He has authored several books including Misquoting Muhammad: The Challenges and Choices of Interpreting the Prophet’s Legacy, Hadith: Muhammad’s Legacy in the Medieval and Modern World, and The Canonization of al-Bukhari and Muslim. He has also published articles in the fields of Hadith, Islamic law, Salafism, Sufism, and Arabic language.
And his Georgetown site itself (http://explore.georgetown.edu/people/brownj2/) it says he’s “associate professor” and “Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Chair of Islamic Civilization.”"

So, if you have a problem with how he is representing Islamic beliefs and the Islamic world, perhaps you should contact him. I assure you I'm not trying to be snarky here. I think it's important for Muslims to get into the discussion and debate people within their own community about some of these matters.

A video of his talk, which was the subject of the article, can be found here. Just scroll down until you see it.

24-02-17, 17:18
can you give some details of the proof against Gülen in the 16 boxes ?
I've heard a lot of acusations, over and over again, but I haven't heard any solid evidence uptill now